Ranger disappointment
mr_boo
Whew...just finished reading this whole thread...what gets to me is that this whole debate really seems to be about damage per sec and it almost really centers on Ranger vs Warrior. Why are we all using the Ranger vs Warrior sample as the main basis for the effectiveness of a Ranger? Rangers were never really designed to go toe to toe against Warriors, nor were they designed to be competitive in a dps contest against a Warrior. The Ranger is simply an effective character, and I don't see how having a competent Ranger on any PVP team is negative.
FreeParking
wait so you mean rangers cant own like LEGOLAS?!?! OMG BRB RETURNING GUILD WARS!
Gh0sT
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Originally Posted by Straegen
This is true, but load up a ranger with a max dmg bow then warrior with a max dmg hammer, pound on a drake and see which one drops it faster. The hammer guy will win 9 times out of 10 if not more often. Take a sword guy with a max dragon sword into that same fight and if the ranger plays it just right he will win by a tiny margin, but will have taken more damage (shields are powerful in this game). I don't think anyone who has played a warrior and a ranger will argue with that statement. Strength coupled with hammer adds up to some monster hits. I know in PvP I would rather take an arrow than a shot by a hammer.
I didnt want to mix myself in this battle , but this is EXACLTY where you go the wrong way...
I could say this as well:
Take a disruptive ranger and a warrior and let them fight a boss which does elemental damage, see who takes the LEAST damage, the ranger wins that easily... disrupting the boss and with extra elemental defence...
Sure its an unfair battle, but so is the same with ur example, rangers arent ment to deal the most DPS...
I could say this as well:
Take a disruptive ranger and a warrior and let them fight a boss which does elemental damage, see who takes the LEAST damage, the ranger wins that easily... disrupting the boss and with extra elemental defence...
Sure its an unfair battle, but so is the same with ur example, rangers arent ment to deal the most DPS...
Straegen
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Originally Posted by Gh0sT
Take a disruptive ranger and a warrior and let them fight a boss which does elemental damage, see who takes the LEAST damage, the ranger wins that easily... disrupting the boss and with extra elemental defence...
Sure its an unfair battle, but so is the same with ur example, rangers arent ment to deal the most DPS... You could say it, but the numbers don't add up. 70Al for the Ranger with +30 against elemental followed by perhaps 15 for a specific damage type. Warrior with a shield has a flat 100Al+. Throw on an absorbtion rune that sucks up damage and you have a warrior taking less damage than a ranger in all fights elemental or not.
I need to say this again... and again... and I guess again. My "examples" or rather in my case experience showed me that the game is easier both in PvP and PvE with a warrior, monk and elementalist. I haven't played a mesmer or necro with any real time so those were left out of my examples. After playing the other classes (I play the classes up through PvE environments and I don't just jump in with PvP templates), my original statement stands... I found the ranger class to be disappointing compared to the others. The warrior takes less damage and deals more, the elementalist smacks damage down better than any class I have seen so far killing things so quick that healing is almost an after thought, the monk... its a monk... practically heal until the monsters/players run out of juice. I have played with and against mesmers and find them either a boon when playing with or a bane when playing against in PvP. Have no idea how they do in PvE.
I have seen only two posts in here that give specific examples of skills that make the ranger run well. One included barrage, which I conceed and hope raise the ranger overall survivablilty in the game (I don't have barrage yet). The other I plan on trying some of the combinations to see if it helps. I have noticed that the posts with the specifics have generally not disagreed with my statement lending me to think that it isn't just me that has noticed a ranger issue.
Sure its an unfair battle, but so is the same with ur example, rangers arent ment to deal the most DPS... You could say it, but the numbers don't add up. 70Al for the Ranger with +30 against elemental followed by perhaps 15 for a specific damage type. Warrior with a shield has a flat 100Al+. Throw on an absorbtion rune that sucks up damage and you have a warrior taking less damage than a ranger in all fights elemental or not.
I need to say this again... and again... and I guess again. My "examples" or rather in my case experience showed me that the game is easier both in PvP and PvE with a warrior, monk and elementalist. I haven't played a mesmer or necro with any real time so those were left out of my examples. After playing the other classes (I play the classes up through PvE environments and I don't just jump in with PvP templates), my original statement stands... I found the ranger class to be disappointing compared to the others. The warrior takes less damage and deals more, the elementalist smacks damage down better than any class I have seen so far killing things so quick that healing is almost an after thought, the monk... its a monk... practically heal until the monsters/players run out of juice. I have played with and against mesmers and find them either a boon when playing with or a bane when playing against in PvP. Have no idea how they do in PvE.
I have seen only two posts in here that give specific examples of skills that make the ranger run well. One included barrage, which I conceed and hope raise the ranger overall survivablilty in the game (I don't have barrage yet). The other I plan on trying some of the combinations to see if it helps. I have noticed that the posts with the specifics have generally not disagreed with my statement lending me to think that it isn't just me that has noticed a ranger issue.
Epinephrine
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Originally Posted by Straegen
You could say it, but the numbers don't add up. 70Al for the Ranger with +30 against elemental followed by perhaps 15 for a specific damage type. Warrior with a shield has a flat 100Al+. Throw on an absorbtion rune that sucks up damage and you have a warrior taking less damage than a ranger in all fights elemental or not.
No, you're wrong. The Ranger has 100 vs elemental, +15 possibly vs the type in question. Warrior has 80 +20 vs physical to get to 100 vs physical, but 80 vs elemental. Even with a 15AL shield the warrior is behind the ranger, without the ranger wearing the right armour for the job. Tack on a greater conflagration so that all physical damage is fire and the ranger takes less damage than the warrior all the time. Besides, Rangers have skills to make their armour even higher vs elemental damage, so provided we are talking about "tacking things on" the Ranger can use Dryder's Defenses to get another 55 armour vs elemental and 75% evasion, the warrior can't compete with that using his best stance.
You are ignoring the fact that the game isn't played as "I hit you, you hit me" but is evolving and flowing combat. When you just need that bit more damage to finish a guy the ranger can deliver it; he can pull pursuit off a player with a pin down, he can shut down casters or warriors, he's got it all. He's not the best at any given aspect of it, but pretty effective overall. My only complaint is the lousy pet controls and the uselessness of carrying Comfort Animal and Charm Animal if you bother with a pet. Merge the two skills, so that Charm Animal acts as Comfort Animal while you have a pet along, and is a charm only if you have given up your animal.
You are ignoring the fact that the game isn't played as "I hit you, you hit me" but is evolving and flowing combat. When you just need that bit more damage to finish a guy the ranger can deliver it; he can pull pursuit off a player with a pin down, he can shut down casters or warriors, he's got it all. He's not the best at any given aspect of it, but pretty effective overall. My only complaint is the lousy pet controls and the uselessness of carrying Comfort Animal and Charm Animal if you bother with a pet. Merge the two skills, so that Charm Animal acts as Comfort Animal while you have a pet along, and is a charm only if you have given up your animal.
Gh0sT
No but why do you keep imagining a ranger should do DAMAGE... this game is not about all damage...
A ranger is a supporter...
Say ur team is fighting PvE PvP doesnt matter, and there is a monk which is nasty, you can interupt... sure the mesmer can do it too, but what if he's busy with other enemies...
What if your warrior is bashing in on someone but JUST doesnt get the edge to kill the guy (he heals himself), the ranger can help him out with some powerful shots
What if hte monk is chased by a warrior... ranger uses pin down + hunter shot
What if there is a clustered group of enemies... ranger can pull them...
And i cant point out how many times ive been the last man standing (mainly in PvE because i had sucky teams in PvP who let the warrior bash in on me without doing anything), and used some defensive skill to get away and return later to rez my party...
Its all in the support mate, i dont see a warrior do all this...
EDIT: i guess Epinephrine got a earlier reply but he states about the same as i do...
A ranger is a supporter...
Say ur team is fighting PvE PvP doesnt matter, and there is a monk which is nasty, you can interupt... sure the mesmer can do it too, but what if he's busy with other enemies...
What if your warrior is bashing in on someone but JUST doesnt get the edge to kill the guy (he heals himself), the ranger can help him out with some powerful shots
What if hte monk is chased by a warrior... ranger uses pin down + hunter shot
What if there is a clustered group of enemies... ranger can pull them...
And i cant point out how many times ive been the last man standing (mainly in PvE because i had sucky teams in PvP who let the warrior bash in on me without doing anything), and used some defensive skill to get away and return later to rez my party...
Its all in the support mate, i dont see a warrior do all this...
EDIT: i guess Epinephrine got a earlier reply but he states about the same as i do...
Beqxter
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Originally Posted by Epinephrine
My only complaint is the lousy pet controls and the uselessness of carrying Comfort Animal and Charm Animal if you bother with a pet. Merge the two skills, so that Charm Animal acts as Comfort Animal while you have a pet along, and is a charm only if you have given up your animal.
I agree. I wound up ditching Beastmastery because of the number of skill slots it took to maintain.
I think most people in this thread agree with each other, including Straegen who started the whole debate. Playing a Ranger is harder than playing a Warrior, particularly if you're accustomed to/comfortable with straightforward run-up-and-hit-things gameplay. He found that disappointing. Others do not.
I think most people in this thread agree with each other, including Straegen who started the whole debate. Playing a Ranger is harder than playing a Warrior, particularly if you're accustomed to/comfortable with straightforward run-up-and-hit-things gameplay. He found that disappointing. Others do not.
Straegen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epinephrine
At the rangers best he is on par with a warrior and that is when things are going right. When things go wrong a ranger drops fast. I played my ranger up through the levels and I have experience here. I played my warrior up through those same levels and life was much easier.
That said this is getting into a which class is better and that wasn't my point. My point is that at a whole the ranger just doesn't seem as powerful or easy as the other classes I have tried so far. That and my observation that rangers are last or near last on the "we need a" list has me believing that rangers could use a bit of a bump.
Quote: Originally Posted by Epinephrine You are ignoring the fact that the game isn't played as "I hit you, you hit me" but is evolving and flowing combat. No I am not, you are assuming that all a warrior can do is swing a sword. Warriors can be just as tricky and adept at interruptions as a ranger especially when they start knocking people down with their hammer.
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When you just need that bit more damage to finish a guy the ranger can deliver it; he can pull pursuit off a player with a pin down, he can shut down casters or warriors, he's got it all. He's not the best at any given aspect of it, but pretty effective overall.
I said it earlier... on paper the ranger looks good. My experience tells me otherwise. IMO, the ranger is just too much of a compromise in all areas and it shows when going through the higher levels in PvE and the most effective group builds don't even have a slot for a ranger. The best part about playing a ranger in PvE for me was I knew I would likely be the last player standing because everyone else was worried about more combat effective classes.
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My point is that at a whole the ranger just doesn't seem as powerful or easy as the other classes I have tried so far.
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That's what Mesmers are designed to do, and they're much better at it. I never suggested that a Ranger was better at it than a Mesmer. I was comparing a Ranger with an Elementalist in the quoted example.
Originally Posted by Epinephrine
My only complaint is the lousy pet controls and the uselessness of carrying Comfort Animal and Charm Animal if you bother with a pet. Merge the two skills, so that Charm Animal acts as Comfort Animal while you have a pet along, and is a charm only if you have given up your animal.
I would definately agree this would help up the ranger in my book... two skills is just too high a price to pay. However, I have been toying with a monk/ranger pet build that uses pet damage. Not effective as warrior damage or straight archer damage, but most people ignore pets and that could allow an opening.
The belief at large in the game stands... no one I know looks for a ranger to complete a group. As I stated earlier, I haven't seen a message asking for rangers in the game yet... this is not true for monks, ele and warrior. I would just as soon not have a ranger in my party when going in for PvP. Defafnyr
/topic hijack
Epinephrine...are you in the dental field? *eyes the lido carpule* Akshara
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I would even argue that a well built mesmer can out damage and cause more chaos than a ranger.
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Our point is that the Ranger isn't about power, nor is it about being easy to play. A Ranger is a difficult profession to play effectively, and many who enjoy being a Ranger prefer the challenge of it.
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I am guessing this is a joke. If not, you need to play with Ele that aren't spazzes. An Ele can drop damage that is just obscene especially in PvE.
no one I know looks for a ranger to complete a group
You repeat and offer this as evidence of there being a problem with the class, though this is really just your personal interpretation. It's just as reasonable to suggest that the reason nobody spams for Rangers is that very few people actually "get it" and don't understand how to use a Ranger well in a group. Besides being less powerful and harder to master, they are also less obvious in what their role is within a party. The others are more obvious... Warriors bash, Monks heal, Elementalists nuke, Mesmers cause chaos, Necros call the undead, Rangers... well they have a pet and a bow. Quote:
New rule... before you chime in with a snippit of one of my repsonses read them all. My comments were directed at someone who was implying that a ranger didn't have to help himself or his team increase dps to be effective. To me it is laughable to believe that overall dps both given and absorbed isn't what wins matches. Your team has X health and my team has Y health... whoever drops the other team to 0 health across the board wins. If a ranger offense/defense isn't effectivly lowering the other teams dps or raising theirs, it is a useless skill. Heal spells lower dps, attack skills raise dps, traps raise dps, res spells lower dps... it all boils down to dishing more effective damage to the other team before they do more effective damage to yours.
Direct damage generally doens't win matches, lowering the other teams dps does. The best teams run coordinated monks effectively reducing the other teams dps to 0. Good teams usually run one or more mesmers to counter this otherwise the monks will keep damage from your team to at or near zero. I understand PvP and what it takes to win in it... I may only be an average PvP'r, but I know communication, teamwork and complimentary builds is what wins the day. Generally speaking, rangers don't fit into the later part of that equation. I know of one build that is effective and another one I have seen tried and failed, but has promise. Again as a whole, rangers are seen as the weaker classes in PvP... let me know the last time a ranger was selected as a primary target and I will show you a team of nothing but rangers. Quote: |
Quote: Plus they can have skills like debilitating and distracting shot in there for a more all-purpose approach and of course traps and other wilderness moves as a further supplement. Using the Ele as an example, they are not one dimensional either. Oddly enough Eles have some of the best defensive skills in the game. The ward spells in th Ele aresenal are great skills as well as their armor spells. Its just most players perfer using spells like meteor shower. Rangers do have a handful of skills that make the multi-purpose, but so do Ele. Probably the most single minded class is the warrior and even it has a few tricks up its sleeve. Rangers are pushed into the do all because they don't have the skills for a focused class outside of the anti-caster PvP build.
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Tigers Fury nerf in one of the last 2 BWEs Rangers could actually outdamage elementalists
I can't speak to what happend prior to game release as I only played one BWE, but now... ele pretty much outstrip all other classes in pure dps (with exceptions of course). There are some combo classes that can output high damage, but rangers are generally not in that bunch although I have heard of a ranger trick that is evil (if it works), but it is a secondary ranger class not primary. Quote:
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