Finally, found the famous Elswyth Recurve, seems really nice, but when I was using it in both PvE and PvP situations, I find it cause worries more then anything.
Thing its, because it drain so much health rather quickly, you really have to be shooting somthing all the time, and switching bow all the time its just a piss.
Espically in situation where you are in the middle of fighting, the switch actually cause a delay, such as, you are in the middle in running away from warriors,you can rarely get a shot in at its full fire rate.
So I dont get it, how do ppl use these things.
Just cant get on with life stealing bows.
romeo_longsword
moriz
you need something that increases firing rate, such as tiger's fury. other than that, you have to switch to something different out of battle.
Valerius
bah... there's a thread just like this 8-9 threads down... http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=114144
anyways... have a bow to switch to when outside of battle... that doesn't have a Zealous or Vamp mod on it
when in battle... while attack speed buffs help a lot... there not *that* important
anyways... have a bow to switch to when outside of battle... that doesn't have a Zealous or Vamp mod on it
when in battle... while attack speed buffs help a lot... there not *that* important
SnipiousMax
Switching bow's is a lot easier with practice. Just like casters switching out +energy -Energy regain offhands and wands, or warriors switching to an Elemental weapon. Its a tool in a pool of possible tools!
Yanman.be
also, a short bow will be better to have a vamp mod on then a longbow
Sol_Vie
Recurves aren't quite at longbow stats. Barrage always works wonderfully with vamp bows.
romeo_longsword
I just find it too difficult to use, you have to switch weapons in and out of combat, sometimes in sticky situations, you are running from mods, or players in PvP, you are lose a large amout of health without realise, and it only really works well under certain situations.
With such limiations, I feel its better off praying for a critical hit then to take the advantage of the life stealing, conditioned to so much looking after required.
Barrage wise, I think its good that you can steal up to 30 HP per Barrage shots, but by the time you are using barrage, you are usually behind some tanks or summon, thats a comfortable situation I would not need to steal any HP.
And by the time you are being confronted toe to toe, the mod, or the player is hitting 40 to 100 + DMG, thats per person, in contrast of the +5 per person from the bow, its nothing.
I think a tool should adjust to suit your style, not the other way round.
But good on you for thouse who can use it well.
With such limiations, I feel its better off praying for a critical hit then to take the advantage of the life stealing, conditioned to so much looking after required.
Barrage wise, I think its good that you can steal up to 30 HP per Barrage shots, but by the time you are using barrage, you are usually behind some tanks or summon, thats a comfortable situation I would not need to steal any HP.
And by the time you are being confronted toe to toe, the mod, or the player is hitting 40 to 100 + DMG, thats per person, in contrast of the +5 per person from the bow, its nothing.
I think a tool should adjust to suit your style, not the other way round.
But good on you for thouse who can use it well.
J1000
Here is how I view these two strings when using the two skills they are most often associated with:
Barrage:Damage (Vampiric) - highly effective Health/Energy Regeneration - highly effective
Tiger's Fury or any Increased Attack Speed:Damage (Vampiric) - moderately effective Health/Energy Regeneration - barely effective and often harmful
These strings are most effective with Barrage, where the number of targets struck magnifies the damage and regeneration that occurs. Why do I say they are only barely effective with Tiger's Fury? Because even though the regen rate while firing is greater than the one pip of health or energy you lose, you will always find yourself in situations where shots are delayed (when running after a target or healing) and you weren't able to switch bows in time to get that one pip of energy back. For this reason, I find the energy and health gains from these strings to be anywhere from barely adequate to downright inadequate even with increased attack speed buffs. I would be far more willing to use a Vampiric string with Tiger's Fury than a Zealous one, because the extra damage is probably worth the trouble.
Think about it this way. A Zealous bow string with Tiger's Fury increases your energy regen from 1 e/sec to 1.33 e/sec while attacking. Do anything other than attack with that bow on (like Throw Dirt or starting a preparation) and you're suddenly on the losing end of the equation. Now maybe you guys are much better at quick-switching your bows than I am. If that's the case then by all means, go Zealous!
Barrage:Damage (Vampiric) - highly effective Health/Energy Regeneration - highly effective
Tiger's Fury or any Increased Attack Speed:Damage (Vampiric) - moderately effective Health/Energy Regeneration - barely effective and often harmful
These strings are most effective with Barrage, where the number of targets struck magnifies the damage and regeneration that occurs. Why do I say they are only barely effective with Tiger's Fury? Because even though the regen rate while firing is greater than the one pip of health or energy you lose, you will always find yourself in situations where shots are delayed (when running after a target or healing) and you weren't able to switch bows in time to get that one pip of energy back. For this reason, I find the energy and health gains from these strings to be anywhere from barely adequate to downright inadequate even with increased attack speed buffs. I would be far more willing to use a Vampiric string with Tiger's Fury than a Zealous one, because the extra damage is probably worth the trouble.
Think about it this way. A Zealous bow string with Tiger's Fury increases your energy regen from 1 e/sec to 1.33 e/sec while attacking. Do anything other than attack with that bow on (like Throw Dirt or starting a preparation) and you're suddenly on the losing end of the equation. Now maybe you guys are much better at quick-switching your bows than I am. If that's the case then by all means, go Zealous!
Kurow
I havent had a problem with either of these things, sure you have to watch your hp, but its a small price to pay.
J1000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurow
I havent had a problem with either of these things, sure you have to watch your hp, but its a small price to pay.
Unless I have a reason not to, I try to carry a Vampiric bow for the damage. If you carry a Zealous string the difference (good or bad) is not as noticeable, but it's definitely there.
monk muffle
for pve always carry dual shot and barrage either way ur gaining ur health back x2 and more if theres a mob and u barrage
Ashram Nightbringer
The damage is what you do Vamp for, not so much to heal yourself. Barrage is a must for me though. Even if it is just hitting two, that is +10 dmg a shot with vamp, add more mobs and you get the idea. I use Barrage with Judges and i am loving it. As far as the health degen, at first I thought it was pain as well, I was forgetting to switch or forgetting to switch back. Eventually i learned to have my other weapon slot be empty, that way I know to switch back. Works great.
Of course Im speaking mainly from the PVE perspective where mobs bunch around the tank. In PVP you should prolly get a different mod.
Of course Im speaking mainly from the PVE perspective where mobs bunch around the tank. In PVP you should prolly get a different mod.
Valerius
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romeo_longsword
Its been a while since I posted my questions on using the vamp mod, I have to say I have been using it more then before, spiking wise or in a barrage team, vamp mod its pretty good.
Zerg
I hate all vamp 
I know it has a good benifit of adding armor peircing damage but I really hate degen. I got rid of victos blade right after I got it.
I know it has a good benifit of adding armor peircing damage but I really hate degen. I got rid of victos blade right after I got it.
-Loki-
The bow does 5 extra damage that ignores armour and heals you, per hit, and you are complaining about a little -1 health regen that is stopped by 1/2 a second of weapon swapping when not in a battle? You know you have to have the bow equipped for quite a long time for it to do significant health damage while not fighting, right?
romeo_longsword
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerg
I hate all vamp I know it has a good benifit of adding armor peircing damage but I really hate degen. I got rid of victos blade right after I got it.
I got on with the vamp mod now, it takes just sometime in getting into the habbit really in switchig weapons really.
I only use the vamp mod whenever I arrived at the position I wish to fire from, then whenever I need to move, I switch to another none vamp bow before hand. I know its all been said before, but it taken me sometime to take on this idea and put in pratice.
But I have to say, even after I have taken on this habbit, I dont always use the vamp bow, oftern I do thouse long hours farm, sometimes my alterness is not alwas sharp.
I know it has a good benifit of adding armor peircing damage but I really hate degen. I got rid of victos blade right after I got it.
I got on with the vamp mod now, it takes just sometime in getting into the habbit really in switchig weapons really.I only use the vamp mod whenever I arrived at the position I wish to fire from, then whenever I need to move, I switch to another none vamp bow before hand. I know its all been said before, but it taken me sometime to take on this idea and put in pratice.
But I have to say, even after I have taken on this habbit, I dont always use the vamp bow, oftern I do thouse long hours farm, sometimes my alterness is not alwas sharp.
Da Deathblade
Mending Ftw!! 
Quaker
I've never seen any clear advantage to using Vamp bows. Considering the health degeneration, they very seldom give you any real health bonus, and they don't seem to do any more OVERALL damage then a good 10/10 Sundering Bow. I've tried both Elswyth's and Drago's (Vampiric) in the Tombs, and I've settled on using my Drago's (sundering) FlatBow most of the time, with a switch to a 10/10 sunder Short Bow on occasion. (This is, of course, combined with Favorable Winds & Tiger's Fury)
I'd have to go along with Romeo's initial statement that they're not worth the trouble. They sound like a good thing, but they don't live up to the Hype.
I'd have to go along with Romeo's initial statement that they're not worth the trouble. They sound like a good thing, but they don't live up to the Hype.
Jenosavel
As to the health benefits and draw-backs of a 5:1 Vampiric mod, if you use a bow with refire of 2.4 seconds, 5 health per attack equals out to almost exactly 1 pip of health regen. So with a Long or Composite Bow you're health neutral as far as regen/degen is concerned.
With a bow that has a refire of 2 seconds (Shortbow or Flatbow), you're actually coming out ahead, at 1/4 a pip of health regen. Furthermore, if you add an IAS buff on top of that of the average +33% (such as Tiger's Fury), you're coming out ahead at .6 pips of health regen.
Obviously .6 pips of health regen isn't a lot. However, to fear a Vampiric mod because it has 1 pip of health degen showing on your bar is silly.
Switching weapons outside of battle is one of the easiest things in the world. The F1 through F4 keys are there and they work brilliantly. A weapon swap takes only one key press. If you're used to using the number keys to use skills (which is a good habit to get into), the weapon swapping keys are already very close at hand and should only take a little getting used to. If you find weapon swapping is what's keeping you away from a Vampiric weapon, do yourself a favor and learn to use weapon swaps. You'll be glad you did if you ever have to play a caster in PvP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quaker
With a bow that has a refire of 2 seconds (Shortbow or Flatbow), you're actually coming out ahead, at 1/4 a pip of health regen. Furthermore, if you add an IAS buff on top of that of the average +33% (such as Tiger's Fury), you're coming out ahead at .6 pips of health regen.
Obviously .6 pips of health regen isn't a lot. However, to fear a Vampiric mod because it has 1 pip of health degen showing on your bar is silly.
Switching weapons outside of battle is one of the easiest things in the world. The F1 through F4 keys are there and they work brilliantly. A weapon swap takes only one key press. If you're used to using the number keys to use skills (which is a good habit to get into), the weapon swapping keys are already very close at hand and should only take a little getting used to. If you find weapon swapping is what's keeping you away from a Vampiric weapon, do yourself a favor and learn to use weapon swaps. You'll be glad you did if you ever have to play a caster in PvP.
Quote:
I've never seen any clear advantage to using Vamp bows. Considering the health degeneration, they very seldom give you any real health bonus, and they don't seem to do any more OVERALL damage then a good 10/10 Sundering Bow. I've tried both Elswyth's and Drago's (Vampiric) in the Tombs, and I've settled on using my Drago's (sundering) FlatBow most of the time, with a switch to a 10/10 sunder Short Bow on occasion. (This is, of course, combined with Favorable Winds & Tiger's Fury)
I'd have to go along with Romeo's initial statement that they're not worth the trouble. They sound like a good thing, but they don't live up to the Hype. +10% armor penetration against a 60AL target will increase your bow damage (assuming 12 Marks) by a whopping 1.6 to 3.1 damage per attack. Against a 100AL target you'll get 1.4 to 2.6 extra damage per attack. Assuming 16 Marks against a 60AL target you'll get an extra 2.3 to 4.3 damage, and against a 100AL target you'll get 2.0 to 3.7 extra damage.
So at best, we can expect a Sundering mod to give us a +4.3 attack 10% of the time. Under more normal circumstance, we can be expecting somewhere around a +2 damage 10% of the time. Now compare that to a Vampiric mod which gives a +5 damage per attack 100% of the time, and there is absolutely no question as to which mod is better for dealing damage.
I'd have to go along with Romeo's initial statement that they're not worth the trouble. They sound like a good thing, but they don't live up to the Hype. +10% armor penetration against a 60AL target will increase your bow damage (assuming 12 Marks) by a whopping 1.6 to 3.1 damage per attack. Against a 100AL target you'll get 1.4 to 2.6 extra damage per attack. Assuming 16 Marks against a 60AL target you'll get an extra 2.3 to 4.3 damage, and against a 100AL target you'll get 2.0 to 3.7 extra damage.
So at best, we can expect a Sundering mod to give us a +4.3 attack 10% of the time. Under more normal circumstance, we can be expecting somewhere around a +2 damage 10% of the time. Now compare that to a Vampiric mod which gives a +5 damage per attack 100% of the time, and there is absolutely no question as to which mod is better for dealing damage.
Echowinds
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenosavel
+10% armor penetration against a 60AL target will increase your bow damage (assuming 12 Marks) by a whopping 1.6 to 3.1 damage per attack. Against a 100AL target you'll get 1.4 to 2.6 extra damage per attack. Assuming 16 Marks against a 60AL target you'll get an extra 2.3 to 4.3 damage, and against a 100AL target you'll get 2.0 to 3.7 extra damage.
So at best, we can expect a Sundering mod to give us a +4.3 attack 10% of the time. Under more normal circumstance, we can be expecting somewhere around a +2 damage 10% of the time. Now compare that to a Vampiric mod which gives a +5 damage per attack 100% of the time, and there is absolutely no question as to which mod is better for dealing damage. ^^^ Win.
So at best, we can expect a Sundering mod to give us a +4.3 attack 10% of the time. Under more normal circumstance, we can be expecting somewhere around a +2 damage 10% of the time. Now compare that to a Vampiric mod which gives a +5 damage per attack 100% of the time, and there is absolutely no question as to which mod is better for dealing damage. ^^^ Win.
Quaker
Well, first of all, I'm talking about actual observed results, not theoretical results based upon idealized and possibly incorrect formulas.
For example, you're calculations for the health boost is based upon a 2 second refire rate, but doesn't allow for missed shots and/or the time between switching targets. As I more or less said in my first post, I haven't actually observed any overall health benefits from using a Vampiric bow. At best, the health gain just balances the loss and the net effect is zero - which is what you'd get with any bow.
As far as the relative damage goes, I can't comment on the validity of your calculations, but I can say - again, as I basically already said - that I haven't observed any great difference in the total damage done to a target over time between a 5/-1 Vamp and a 10/10 Sunder.
Therefore, since I can't see any real advantage to using a Vamp bow, I'd say why bother.
btw, until this latest update, I was unable to see the Vamp damage as a separate number. Now I do see the +5's when they come up. But I also see extra +'s coming off my sundering bow now too. these are always a lot higher than +4 but not every shot (but more often then 1 in 10)
For example, you're calculations for the health boost is based upon a 2 second refire rate, but doesn't allow for missed shots and/or the time between switching targets. As I more or less said in my first post, I haven't actually observed any overall health benefits from using a Vampiric bow. At best, the health gain just balances the loss and the net effect is zero - which is what you'd get with any bow.
As far as the relative damage goes, I can't comment on the validity of your calculations, but I can say - again, as I basically already said - that I haven't observed any great difference in the total damage done to a target over time between a 5/-1 Vamp and a 10/10 Sunder.
Therefore, since I can't see any real advantage to using a Vamp bow, I'd say why bother.
btw, until this latest update, I was unable to see the Vamp damage as a separate number. Now I do see the +5's when they come up. But I also see extra +'s coming off my sundering bow now too. these are always a lot higher than +4 but not every shot (but more often then 1 in 10)
Jenosavel
Yes, my calculations of the health gain don't take into account missed attacks, Faintheartedness type hexes, etc. However, the health gain aspect of the Vampiric mod is somewhat irrelevant. It's the damage that makes them worthwhile, and all I sought to point out with the health calculations is that if you're using your Vamp bow wisely, you've got nothing at all to fear from its one pip of degen.
Quote:
As far as the relative damage goes, I can't comment on the validity of your calculations, but I can say - again, as I basically already said - that I haven't observed any great difference in the total damage done to a target over time between a 5/-1 Vamp and a 10/10 Sunder.
Quote:
You can verify my numbers yourself, if you don't believe them. Using Ensign's wonderful guide to game mechanics, all I did was calculate how much damage a bow attack of base 15 damage and base 28 damage do against an AL60 and an AL 100 target. Then redo the calculation with +10% armor penetration added into the mix. Subtract to find the difference, and you'll have my numbers.
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But I also see extra +'s coming off my sundering bow now too. these are always a lot higher than +4 but not every shot (but more often then 1 in 10)
Um, what? The extra damage from sundering never shows up as a +damage number. Go out alone (no pet or party) into the Isle of the Nameless with a sundering bow (yes I do have a few, even if I don't particularly like them) and attack one of the targets. Don't use any preps, enchantments, or anything else that might give a +damage number. It doesn't take too long to realize that sundering damage doesn't show up as an additional value on your screen. If you'd like to argue that it does show up as a separate number, you're going to have to explain to me why my 10/10 sundering mod didn't influence a single attack out of the 200 I sat and watched just now (0 marks vs the 100AL dummy). And yes, I used attack skills just in case sundering only works when using a skill similar to warrior strength (no clue if it does or not, though I'd hope not 'cause that would be another mark against it). Also, if the additional damage from sundering showed up as a separate number, then it would stand to reason that the additional damage from Penetrating Attack, which is also armor penetrating, would show up as a separate number as well. Of course, it doesn't. Tyrent Frath
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valerius
well if ur a noob... then u should i guess... but most exp. players take the 5:1 Vamp as it has the most uses
or perhaps an elemental string?
spinal shivers comes to mind...
Inureface
Vamp strings are usually more trouble than they're worth unless they're on a shortbow, same with zealous strings.
Zerg
Yeah I got in the habit of switching out my victo's but it was just more trouble and I was farming FoW with victo's so +5 degen agianst spiders = really slow going, I use an axe build now so im happy
Kurow
I think the real problem that people come accross is just switching out their vamp weapons. Once you get that down, its not tough at all. And really, 10% of 10% is 1% correct? So on average, your hits have 1% damage piercing with a perfect sundering mod right? I guess its assumed you wont be fighting anything with enough armor for that to be comperable to 5 damage per hit. People tend to have disillusions about the effectiveness of strength and armor penetration.
VGJustice
Kurow, the 10/10 mod is more like "1/10 chance of 10% armor penetrate". Or, once out of every ten shots without randoms. But, with randoms, it's a 1-in-10 chance on every hit. If you're lucky, you get bonus damage almost every time. If you're unlucky, you NEVER get the bonus damage, making the mod a waste of space and money. Much better to stick with a sure thing than a relative percentage. If you want armor penetration, put a 5/1 vamp string of a Horn Bow and take along Barrage. That'll pump out some damage.
Antipode
Honestly, I don't see why people don't like vampiric. I use a 5/1 string in ToPK and I hardly ever switch it off (usually only if someone goes AFK) because it's quite simple to just hit troll unguent. Even going against one mob with a bow that has a 2 second refire rate, that's -4 health for those two seconds of one pip degen. The vamp steals five, and that's just against one target. Say barrage hits with all six arrows. That's +30 health every barrage. That's also +30 damage dealt unconditionally, no random percentages.
Even zealous with a two second refire is better than having that extra pip of regen... provided you're attacking, of course. Barrage costs five energy, three with my current expertise. Even if I only hit half of the possible targets with barrage, it's costing me zero energy. If I'm hitting with all six shots, that's +3 energy overall per barrage. Now that's staying power. You sit through phantasm, poison, burning, et al, and yet you can't handle one pip of degen? Something's messed up there, because you should be paying attention to your health bar. I know I do, but that's force of habit from playing a monk for so long. |
