Real World Selling and Guild Wars - ArenaNET's measures?

you know, this topice brings up a good point before i played this game i was play eq2 and having fun with it since it was my first mmo game. And i played it the right way, well about 6-8 months into playing it soe decided that they were going to create different servers (so to speak) where people who don't play as much or whatever can create a toon and pick his lvl and armor and whatever goodies he wanted including cash in bank for realworld money. And man the outrage that insued on eq 2.

Hence that is why I am here, I think if your going to play the game, play it right, sure people farm, but sometimes when you've gone through the game and not much to do and you still love the game why not farm i do it, i'm not rich, and the stuff i get i give very good prices, and i don't scam people for there is no need, but the people that need to resort to BUYING online money, they just cheat themselves, and some gaming magazines like pc gamer have pulled their ads for companies that sell online gold, which i commend them for doing but as we all know that surely doesn't stop everyone or anyone .

sorry for the rant.

Exactly my point...I am not asking them to be role models and/or enjoy the game the way we do...just to PLAY within the rules set forth, buying gold is just as bad IMO as scamming or using exploits, and yes this is a game and my comparison to real life is somewhat harsh I admit, although it has been my experience, that often people behave in game much as they do in real life...which most of the time is a positive to any online game... after a trade do you always pm "Thank you", I know I do. The downside, rude/bad language, abusive, scamming and gold buying players will always exist, both online and in real life.

The idea isn't for the merchants to control the amount of gold in game... you still want gold to drop as it does. The idea is to simply provide a cheaper alternative and legal means for the lazy and foolish to buy gold with real money that benefits aNet and detracts from the eBayers. If you can, in game, buy 50Plat for $2.99 or go to eBay and pay those prices... what would you do (assuming you were one to be so dumb as to buy fake gold with real money)?

It's all about what you personally think the "goal" of the game is.

Those advocating selling Gold for real money - this is a horrible idea.

Who wouldn't spend $3 for 50 plat if it was allowed by Anet? I'm going to spend $50 for Factions, $3 is not even the tax on that! And for $3 I can buy any armor I want!

Of course, that's ALL I'll be able to buy. Since everyone else is going to spend $3 to get 50k, gold prices for Weapons, Runes, etc, will go through the roof.

Then comes the vicous cycle - people buy more gold to get the items they want, driving up prices, so that people have to buy even more gold.

The chance of anyone actually "earning" enough money to buy player controlled items will eventually become nil.

The only way to really solve the e-bay problem is to get rid of Gold all together. Armor is bought through points earned by quests and leveling up (the points are not exchangeable).

All items are instantly customized when someone picks them up (or, are customized at drop?!?). No items to trade or sell on ebay. (or anywhere else).

Of course, this will probably not be a very fun game to play. Except for the fact when you see someone with an ultra-rare item, you know he found it "legit."

I don't know. Does anyone out there think this is a good idea?

I think you answered your own question - it wouldn't be as much fun and, well, that's the point of playing a game ... having fun.

Nope horrible idea, if that were to happen i would not have ANY of my current weps because all my drops are non max high req white crap.

+ CC in game idea is horrible, if you do that you may aswell rename guildwars to "Project Entropia".

Seriously.

You probably didn’t read my earlier post or maybe you didn’t understand it so I’ll say it again:

TIME = MONEY

Therefore:

WASTING TIME = WASTING MONEY

Some people don’t like farming. Some people play this game to run quests with their friends and hate farming. Some people concentrate completely on PvP and have only done the PvE content to get items and such unlocked or available for PvP. These people don’t want to waste their time farming. It is not competitive to spend time PvEing for gear when you should be practicing PvPing with your guild. Some people make a ton of money in their real world jobs and only have a few hours a week to play. These people buy gold to help “grease” their way though the game so they can continue to PvE or PvP with their friends who might have more time then them.

The prices are way cheaper then that. 50Plat costs less then half a penny on ebay. Like I posted earlier: you could work at McDonalds for 30 minutes and buy more gold on-line then you could farming for 8 hours strait.

Those of you that think paying real life cash for Virtual products is dumb are out of your mind. As working people in the western world we have an unlimited earning potential- but our life spans are fixed and we have only so many hours of waking life to do the things we think are fun and important. Every hour you spend is way more important then you could put a dollar amount to. So if you think farming is totally fun then go for it. But for everyone else there are better alternatives to use your time and money on.

Being able to buy and sell gold on-line provides a huge benefit to the players of Guildwars:

1) Being able to buy gold lets players with limited time be able to competitive in the MMOLRPG setting. If it was impossible to buy gold people wouldn’t level as fast or even bother playing the game. This would lead to less population for doing quests or competing in the PvP content. I also would like to point out that these type of players that have limited time to play games but have high earnings are often times more intelligent and can offer more to the gaming community then the average player. This will raise some outrage but consider this example: A software developer might work 60+ hours a week and make about 130K a year. This person might have a limited time to play but would probably understand the game mechanics, class balance, class roles, and group dynamics much better then the 15 year old gamer who doesn’t have as much life experience and maturity.
2) The farmers bring down the cost of gold and the amount of time it takes to get gold and items. This is because they increase the amount of wanted items in the game. As the supply of these items increase the price of them drops- allowing the community to get items with less time investment. The only people who wouldn’t like this are the people that already have the items (and don’t want other people to get them) and/or the people that really like farming and like being the only shop in town selling items.
3) Unlike other games with a persistent world (like WoW or EQ) farmers don’t even compete with “normal” players in GW because all the farming spots are instanced. In WoW you’ll have to share your farming spots with other people and you can’t get the gear you want as quickly as possible. In GW every party has their own set instance to farm.

The only reason that buying gold On-line is against the EULA is because Anet doesn’t make any money off of it- not because it is bad for the community or because it lowers the gaming experience of anyone. They HATE that someone else makes money off of their product but Gaming companies haven’t quite figure out how to sell their own gold without pissing off the majority of their community (that don’t understand economics) and driving up inflation. Once they figure out how to do it then we’ll see these farming companies go away.

You must have my mustard too With me it's usually the salad dressing.

The bit I was talking about was this:

And the reason I say older players (but I guess it could be any players with money) is that they already, theoreticaly, have more gold to sell to the merchant than your average new player. Perhaps I don't quite understand how the merchant buys player gold from existing players ... ? The assumption i'm making here would be that the merchants would give real-world money for players selling him gold, and sell for real-world money to the players that were buying gold. Thus the "money market" bit in my last post, and people with alot of gold-capital doing alot of selling at high and buying when low.

And also, if said merchant were only able to sell gold it had purchased from other players, I would be pretty sure that the supply/demand would be much the way Ecto has been ... low supply, high demand. Although that's just a guess

I think the only real flaw I can see is if the "real-world" currency fluctuates based on how much is sold to the merchant in-game, then you will have a whole other level of monetary abuse from folks that have lots of money to sell already: "Oh, i'll wait until alot of it gets bought up, sell this gold i've farmed when the price is higher, that will drive the price lower, wait, rinse, repeat"

Just my thoughts, wasn't trying to discredit your idea whatsoever. I think people selling gold to the merchant should have some other reimbursement besides actual money, and let the buyers pay with real cash. What that reimbursement would be, I have no idea.

I agree with most of what you say, but how could you "legalize" the selling of Gold, and NOT run into inflation?

After all, it's not like super-rare Gold weapons will drop any more frequently... there will just be more people willing to pay more money for them!

Whatever the prices, the point is that eBayers can be severely undercut and effectively neutered.

Paying real money for items that can disappear as soon as aNet hangs up it's servers is flat out stupid. You're buying NOTHING! They don't exist!

Horsecrap. I'm one of those programmer types. I can squeeze in an hour or two a night or so and am doing quite well, tyvm. There's no need whatsoever to buy gold to compete.
More herbivorous post-digestive deposits. Farmers increase the cost of the items solely due to greed and the rediculous prices they charge for items most collectors can better.
It's against EULA because of the legal implications. If you just spent $50 for x Gold or whatever and aNet goes belly-up, closing down it's servers, you cannot go after aNet for a refund of your money.

[QUOTE=Mordakai]I agree with most of what you say, but how could you "legalize" the selling of Gold, and NOT run into inflation?
[QUOTE]

The only way they could do it is if they kept the amount of gold relatively static depending on the amount of players. So that gold became a limited resource like real money does.

I don’t understand this- since we are really talking about outsourcing the labor market to a country who’s cost of living is much, much lower then in western countries. It only costs a couple of bucks a week to survive in China, Korea, or India- the labor market is cheap and if they can be hooked up to a computer to work 60 hours a week for $10 then they will be making good cash. Their time is worth less then ours- it can’t be undercut.

You still don’t get it- spending hours farming for the gear that doesn’t exist is more wasteful then just buying it (which I’ve already proven). When Anet closes it’s servers people will cry because of all the time they have wasted.

I doubt you are one of those types from your responses. And moving the bulk of your time from farming to PvPing will make you more competitive at PvP. Lets say for example that you work as a lawnmower (well you work as a programmer but lets say you work as a lawnmower) and you also want to be a professional basket ball player. Lets say that you have to work 40 hours a week to pay your bills and you get to spend the remainder of your time practicing your basket ball skills. If you could find a way to get the same amount of money by only spending 10 hours mowing lawns it would allow you 30 extra hours a week to practice your basketball skills. This would make you substantially better then the person who spends 40 hours a week working. In fact, at the end of the year you would have clocked an additional 1,560 hours of practice time more then someone who had a 40-hour a week job. It’s all in the math- which you know all about Mr. Programmer.

Not true based on economic principles. If people charge too much for an item then they don’t sell it. Trade only happens if both parties see mutual benefit for the exchange. Just because an item seems overpriced to you doesn’t mean that it can’t be sold. Oh, and you spelt ridiculous wrong Mr. High Paid Programmer guy.

Ummm no. Sorry.

Believe it or not, if the MMORPG companies stepped in and sold in-game items for real $$$, they could effectively neutralize the both the e-bay farming and human trafficking/sweatshop issue in one fell stroke.

As far as I know, I was among the first who suggested this idea to SOE when I was still playing EQ1. Low and behold, SOE did exactly just that, offering real uber-weapons for real money in game. SOE lost an earlier pivotal court case where banned player-farmers sued for their accounts to be re-activated. As a result, SOE had to revise its EULA. However, they also realized that they had a large, mainly untapped virtual market, and they pretty much held all the cards since they owned EQ's production servers, characters, and item inventory databases.

It virtual goods for real money morally wrong? That's up to the individual to decide, but if ANET gets pushed into near-bankrupcy should their current business model fail, the virtual market can literally bring them back from the brink.

Actually, he was pretty close with his $2.99 guess for 50k. Currently, 1000k goes for about $70 or about $3.50 for 50k. The prices are actually way down from about a week ago - they had gotten to about $10 for 100k.

Still, I agree with your premise that time = money. For some people it's worth spending relatively little real money to get a significant amount of game gold.

I really don't see a way for Anet to win in this situation. If they sold gold for real money themselves, they would risk really inflating things. Just like the government would do if they just printed more money to pay off the deficit - adding more gold only lessens the value. I don't think there would be enough gold coming in to just sell what people use to buy things in game - that would just enable the Ebay sellers to continue because there wouldn't be enough to meet demand.

Keep in mind that GW's in-game merchant prices dynamically rise with item demand. Therefore, if ecto purchases go up due to the abundance of gold/platinum, then so do merchant prices. GW economy is a self-correcting, self regulating system. It was pretty well designed.

Prices may rise but that will only make it so people have to purchase more gold, which will cause further inflation. Introducing 'new' gold into the game will only hurt things in the long run. Those who can't purchase gold would eventually not even be able to afford things that are now relatively inexpensive.

Sadly, it probably wouldn't. Unlike other games produced by SOE or WoW where there is a genuine "suckering in" effect, weapons in GW do basically nothing special at all. A g0d1y axe that I can find on eBay is no better than a el cheapo "poor man's" axe.

I'm pretty sure the new tombs area is part of a social experiment conducted by Anet, and the results of the experiment are clear, people generally don't give two hoots about looks without the stats to match.

Sorry, GW is a good game but its approach is a tad too idealistic, even communist even. However I still believe big money lies pretty much in the traditional MMO approach (not that I approve of it anyway, but I've seen enough people suckered in).

You're right, new gold would be a problem.

But this system would not inject new gold into the game.

Instead, the traders would be limited to the amount of gold sold to them by players. No new gold would be created. The merchants could only sell gold that had been sold to them by players. They would not be allowed to create gold.

Instead, think of this as gold recycling. Only the gold that falls naturally in the game and is collected by players would be available for sale to the merchants.

As a side benefit, this system would tend to reduce the amount of in-game riches held by the richest players. It would allow them to sell the gold to the merchant for coupons that could be used for ANet games. So - if anything - the recycling system would level out the economy.

Main problem about buying gold online is not that it's wastefull. It is that it is not wastefull... Those buying gold have a significant advantage over the others, add to that buying gold will also cause significant inflation and you'll soon have two classes in the game: the buyers and the non-buyers. Because of the inflation it will become increasingly harder for the non-buyers to get the top gear and eventually you'll have a situation in which the quality of your gear is mostly a consequence of the amount of money you're willing to pump into a game. GW is supposed to be a game of skill, it was sold with the slogan: 'skill, not time spent playing will determine your succes.'
With organised buying of gold they would have to change that to: 'money, not time spent playing will determine your succes.'

There is a good reason why ANET decides against the buying of gold in their EULA, it is because it ruins the game for the non-buyers...

This is the best argument I've seen against the notion of establishing an in-game merchant. The logic is correct -- if the merchant changed the balance of the game and let the amount of money spent determine who wins, who loses, it would be a terrible idea.

But here's why I think the merchant will not create imbalance in the game.

What does money buy in this game?

I think it buys vanity armor and weapons. You don't need much gold at all to have the best stats for armor, the best stats for weapons. I think anyone who has played at least one character through the entire game would agree. By then you're almost certaintly armed with max weapons, max armor.

You don't have to look at the auction site here long, or to sit in La1 long, to see that the high ticket items are rare skins for weapons. And for some people - me included - there is FOW armor. All is simply a gold sink and does not add to my damage or protection compared to the cheapest max armor and weapons.

So what the gold merchant would do is this:

1. It would let those who would ordinarily go to eBay for the gold to buy vanity weapons and armor buy the gold in game instead. Now the profits go to aNet, not the farmers.

2. It would avoid inflation in the game by simply recycling the gold that was sold to it.

3. It would serve as a gold sink (players with a lot of gold - some of them at least - would sell the gold to the merchant for discount coupons for another aNet game or the next chapter of this one. So it would reduce the gold held by the very richest in at least some cases.

4. I don't think I'm wrong when I say the gold would be spent on vanity items. But lets say I am and that buying gold for cash does create an imbalance. We still have the fact that buying gold for cash is a reality now - not a potential problem but something that is happening. Does anyone think that buying gold on eBay is going away? If it is not, then why not at least control it?

You are absolutely incorrect in this. Inflation is caused by too much money chasing too few goods. If people buy gold on-line it doesn’t just pop out of thin air into their hands- it was already farmed and sitting in a bank waiting for someone. The amount of work involved in farming the gold and the amount of demand for the gold affect its price. If everyone started buying gold on line the demand would increase and the price of the gold would go up- eventually the price would stabilize at a higher value and less people would buy it since buying it on-line would not save as much time as actually farming it in game. If ANET were to all of a sudden give every player 1,000 Plat THEN there would be huge inflation- like when the government prints more money and doesn’t take it out of circulation.

Again you are incorrect. These MMOLRPGS are all about Skill + Time invested in farming (gear) + Time practicing. You can be the most skilled player in the game but if you don’t spend time practicing or getting good gear then you won’t be successful in it. For example: iQ is composed of great players and they ALSO spend a ton of time playing the game and working on team work. If you cloned the same iQ players and put them on another team but only let them practice half as much as the original members then they would never be as successful… It is like sports. There is talent with all the great players but they invest TONS of time practicing it. Purchasing gold on-line allows you to eliminate all the time needed to farm the gear to be competitive- that time is now freed up to practice.

You haven’t read my above posts: Buying gold on-line does not negatively affect any other players. You either have the time to spend farming items to get the gear you need- or you don’t have the time to farm and you buy the gold to get the gear you need. For most employed people buying gold makes more sense. ANET doesn’t like people buying gold on-line simply because they hate that other parties are making money off of their creation and they can’t figure out how to successfully do it themselves. Plain and Simple. Go read my above post. Go read my above post. Go read my above post.

Buying gold online drives the price up in the game economy. Don't believe that? well then you have Zero concept of economies...

There is a reason that Every MMO has tried to ban for these offenses... Arenanet and Sony have been the only ones to take it to court... And sue for shut down of the online services doing it... Now IGX state its paying for TIME... and that too is a bogus excuse...

If the US kept printing money constantly the dollar would be worthless in a matter of months... This has happened before... remember just a few years ago when an apple cost 40,000 yen? I do. Why? Because they kept printing Yen to overcome a crashing economy... Which in the end made the yen nearly worthless...

Now in GW... Lets say right now a glob of ecto cost 7k... great everyone goes out and buys 300K and gets all the ecto they want... Now ecto costs 12k. Other people now have to go buy gold to get this for Fissure armor... they buy 300K... Now ecto is up to 15k each... and so on and so on. its a ongoing repeating cycle of "INFLATION" Which is exactly what gold sellers want cause they are able to sell more and more gold at higher costs...

before long your buying 500K at $50 a pop just to stay on top of the market values.. and LIGITIMATE players have ZERO chance of attaining goods anymore cause the game economy is so out of wack...

Now say whatever you want about your fantasy beliefs that buying in game gold doesnt effect economy... I played the game when Anet was letting people get away with this crap... and I saw what happened to the economy by letting them get away with it. Its taken months to get things back down to reasonable Legitimate levels in costs... and some things are still out of wack. My personal choice would be to eliminate the trade button entirely... Thus making every transaction go though a NPC vendor or merchant. (Yes a variant of auction house)

Since most IGX resellers now use instances to do their duping and transactions (to prevent detection and being banned) I would also make it so you can not drop gold in game at all...

With the loss of a trade button and no gold dropping in instances every transaction is trackable... and the economy is secured, for legitimate players, AND buying gold is no longer needed by in game poor... Because suddenly everything becomes affordable... Shocker...

ingram..

Oh and for those now saying I cant buy my uber item. Just about every max stat item is available for FREE from collectors... It may not be as pretty as your rare green drop or unique skinned item... but it does give you the abilities of the item that you want to spend 300K for... so stop saying you can not be competitive. cause you can... you just choose not too...

If the in-game merchant could only sell gold sold to him by players, then new gold would not be created. It would not be the same as printing dollars with no monetary backing. Instead, the same gold that dropped in the game would be recycled. No new gold, no inflation.

And, if it discouraged the gold farming, it might actually - by eliminating some of the eBay gold sellers - be deflationary. The seller would not be selling new gold. The seller would be selling gold that fell in the game.

Honest.

The players that buy gold on the web have been doing so since the beginning of GW. If indeed there would be this great inbalance, where is it? Seems to me the only point made here is "what if?" what if has not happened. The game has things built in place to balance it out, which include the Mechant Cap and Collectors items. So whats the big deal? If you guys told me that GW's economy has gone to the dogs I could understand the point of this thread.
The economy is fine and people are buying gold on line. Can't afford that gold godly super duper bestest in the world weapon? Get a collectors, they are just as good.
I dont see the point here. I say let people do what they want. I can still play the game regardless.

Athis

yep. and more get banned for it Daily... To which I whole heartily say Thank you ArenaNet and NCSoft. The more they ban the more they discourage this activity. The reason the prices are finally stable is because ArenaNet started taking this action. As well as taking measures to secure the market when merging servers. thus no more over night price plunges on high value items... Remember the 200 gold ecto followed the next day by 50k ecto? or the 1k Superior Absorption and Superior Vigor Runes followed next day to be both 100k? I do. it wasn't pretty to witness. Why because just as quickly as they dropped they skyrocketed in price... because so many purchased them and cleaned out the merchant inventories, then they would sell one for 100k. and Bang 10000% profit... and the rest they would resell outside of vendors like they got it on a recent drop so as not to cause the price to fall by reselling back to the rune trader... Arenanet learned that lesson rather well, and took measures to protect market values when merging servers this time. thus preventing another drive for people to be tempted to buy gold to secure items they can not find on drops... But its true... Gold is not a requirement... I rarely have more then 30k, and do just fine with collector armor and weapons, on most characters... Occasionally I'll blow some gold on something, but not often... Normally its for a Superior Vigor Rune... The downside was the nerfing of rune merchant buying... because it was used to generate large amounts of gold. so now its really rare to gain gold from selling runes...

You are wrong. Why? Because you're failing to see a critical point: Gold does spawn out of thin air in GW. It gets spawned when you go out and farm. Now the situation you describe will never happen. Why? because there isn't a limited supply of gold. If your one sweatshop can't cope with the demand you do not raise your prices, you open another sweatshop. Because of the huge gap in wealth it will always be more profitable for the regular American - European player to buy money then to go out and farm it and that means that your scenario will simply never happen. Money-buying Prices will not raise, prices will not stabilize at a point where it is as profitable to buy as it is to go out and farm. Because of this buying gold will always be more profitable for the average American (or European) Joe then to go out and farm it. The more the buying of gold get's more common, the more sweatshops that will open. The more sweatshops that are farming, the bigger the influx of money will be. The bigger the influx of money, the higher the inflation... The higher the inflation, well, the more the average player gets shafted.


You're reply fails to adress the point I'm making. I never stated those that practice more will not be the most skilled ones. I stated that eventually the one with the highest skill will be the victor. That skill is sum of many things, among which your time spent practicing. My point is that 'amount of money spent' should not be a factor in your ingame status. If buying virtual gold online ever becomes common practice then that will be the case and I don't think that is a situation any of us desires...

Just because I do not agree does not mean I have not read your posts. I'm debating your point of view and I think I have made a good case for the fact that buying gold on-line DOES affect other players negatively. If you still disagree with me, plz feel free to criticise the first bit of this post.

Even in your scenario where prices stabilize after an initial point of rising the average Joe will still end up having to farm longer for an item then he would have to if noone had ever bought any gold online. Even in your scenario the community ends up in a worse situation then if there never was any gold-buying in the first place...

You mean the addiction factor? That part is determined by raw game content and its quality. EQ was very expansive, and so is WoW. GW is not... it gets a few patches here and there, but no new, extensive map additions and corresponding quests will hit until Factions. So long as ANET keeps putting these expansions out, users will remain GW-players.

I'm not sure about this... high end crystallines still sell in the 1-million+ range, and they don't function any better than common skin counterparts.

This might be true, but only time will tell.

Merchant prices cap at 100plat, so there is a ceiling. Furthermore, there are enough gold-sinks present in the form of crafted weapons and 15k armors to remove the extra gold from circulation and keep things balanced.

I for one don't care to sink moeny gold for in-game items. When you're done with GW and walk away, you can't redeem your investment without e-bay, which is still a no-no in the EULA.

What is your point? We all agree that you dont need to have large amounts of gold to play the game. Period. So whats the big deal?
Fact; You can have great drops and or get collectors items to play GW
Fact; You can get collectors armor
Fact; You can farm yourself and make some gold

Am I missing something? Seems to me we can play GW without Farmers!
That is what the game was intended for in the first place.
Say your right, and this gold buying business drives GW economy into inflation. Whats the result? Players won't buy, and if players won't buy who's going to profit? No one, because we have another alternative. I would agree with you if the alternative was taken away, but other wise I still fail to see the big deal here. (other than the illegal practice of course)

Buying gold online only affects people that feel a need to have the best. Because collectors simply will not do for them.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/auction/item.php/id=37251/

Here you guys go this says it all.

I'm quite aware of that and don't worry, I myself have got all the items I need. I myself am using a combination of collectors and greens and got enough money stashed away to go buy a fissure. You CAN have the best without much of a problem and it does not even matter all that much to have the best. Even the allmighty War Machine is playing with sub-optimal gear.

Fact remains however that some items ARE more worth then others. Just because both you and me don't care for crystallines does not mean that most people think that way. To those that cannot buy crystallines because of inflated prices it DOES matter and who are we to stay their wants are unreasonable.

Whether an item is better stat-wise or just 'better' looking does not really make a difference. What matters is that certain people want certain items, what those items are and if those items are the best is irrelevant. Certain people want certain items and have their mind sets upon obtaining them. Perhaps having those items makes them feel warm and fuzzy, it does not really matter. What matters is that no matter the item, no matter their reason for wanting it, no matter how 'leet' it is they will have a harder time obtaining it in an inflated economy. Who are we to say they should not want that item? Who are we to say they should simply accept collectors and be done with it? If people want an certain item they should not have a harder time getting it because some have taken the easy-way-out and e-bayed it.

The only issue I have with your point of view is that you are being a bit biased. On the one hand you want people to be able to obtain whatever they want by playing the game and earning it persay. On the other you say that some people have "taken the easy way out". So my question to you is how is that fair for say people that want to play games but don't have the time that is required to obtain these items? What is a "harder time?" If I worked 40 plus a week is it "harder for me to obtain these items? Sure it is. What you are suggesting goes against exactly what you are trying to protect. The right for people to obtain what they want.

I see everyones concern. Its not the occasional person who buys gold online to obtain things they want. It's the people exploiting this meathod. These are the people you are all reffering to as the possible cause for inflation.
I play the game like all of you, I see the prices for the weapons we use. Swords, Bows, Staffs, ect. 50k 60k and more. I feel and have always felt that the prices are too high, but I dont beleive for one second this is the result of people buying gold on-line. I beleive we the players set the prices.

I see your point but I'd like to add two more.
1. I deem it only logical that ingame rewards are gained through ingame performance. There is enough discrimination in the world. I don't see any reason to import real-life differences into a game world. Especially when it comes down to this. By allowing people to buy gold you once again create a discrepancy between the rich and the poor. Americans and Europeans will have a higher chance of succes then those in less fortunate countries. This system does not counter for everyone's right equally, it will help us Americans and Euros the most... Shouldn't the hardworking Asian have as much right as the hardworking Euro?

2. The main issue here though is that not only is buying the 'easy' way out, it also hampers other players. Perhaps if buying did not hurt anyone the situation would not be as grave but by buying you do not just affect yourself, you affect an entire economy and by that the entire playerbase of the game. Everyone has the right to be able to obtain what they want but not when it hurts the rights of everyone else. The inflation you cause is basically time you steal from others. The fact that you're able to do that simply because you're more wealthy then another does not make it any more justifiable, especially if you think that your wealth is for a large part caused by scewed economic situations.

I understand your point, and actually I admire the example you are trying to set forth. However real life is unfair and will forever be unfair. People in Asia have to buy GW too, and Im willing to bet that they worked harder to buy the game than we did. Do you think anyone cut them a break? I think not. My point is that while your thoughts and intetions are noble they just wont happen. Let us not forget, that after all is said and done......this is just a game. The unfairness of a game that uses currency (just like real life) will always be just like real life.....unfair. My point remains the bottom line is GW is still a fair game and people are buying gold everyday. When I see that the game has the problems we are speculating on I will agree. Until then A-net is doing a great job at stabilizing a very difficult situation.

Athis

There you go - that is the crux of the matter here. Thank the mods for letting this topic live to it's climax.

There is of course a distinct seperation from the (1) rich and (2) poor, and the same for the ones with (A) 24/7-leisure time, and those that have (B) no time due to working a full time job or other important life matters.

Whatever item in GW that we treasure or wish to have, there is a desire to obtain it. If we dont have the time needed to either: farm/work for it, or farm for gold to buy it, then obviously there is the other alternative to use real world money to buy gold to obtain it, which is what 'Chase the Sky' was pointing out. The defense point to this is that in-game performance should reap in-game rewards that 'Tortoise' made, which is a strong point. The situation is that some of us just dont have the time to fully enjoy the game to our desired pleasure, because of the lack of time. A good example of this are fast food joints, like McDs. On many occasions, we dont have the time to prepare our own lunches and meals, and these here are an alternative (hence the term: "fast food"). For saving our time, we give up money. Which leads us right to the previous post by 'Athis Strider'.

The main goal was to obtain an item in GW. If you look at it from your perspective, there seems to be no return. But you are not seeing it from the flip side, and that is the time needed to get that item. Another may see it like giving up real world money to conserve time of their lives invested in this game, which is more important to them. Only you can determine what you value more.

I agree though about the 100p "ceiling", and the various "gold-sinks". I have to agree with the last point 'Athis' made:

Actually, i was witness of a so called inflation. Some month ago ecto price skyrocketed. the merchant paid 14k (something like that), selling price was around 17k (i`m not ure of the exact prices). What this so called ecto price inflation made me do was sell all my ecto (like 40 or so) to the NPC. I guess many of you remember and some did the same thing. This resulted in an immediate drop of ecto prices (immediate meaning like 1-2 days, not 1-2 seconds xD ).

But I think if farmers would unite and buy ectos for all their gold, they could make prices skyrocket again.

Ha ha. You don't get the point do you? It's all about your/our personal satisfaction.

Real life examples:
People like to pay for a fancy haircut althou they now they know that their hair will actually grow and ruin the effect (unless you plan to burn your hair out an wear a wig ).

Short term example. We like snacks even if we're not hungry... People spend their money on caviar. All of them know that it will become sh..t in some hours/minutes but we still buy and eat caviar sometimes if we can afford it. Maybe only once just to satisfy our need to taste it.

Good point and exactly right -- truth is that the game itself disappears when you turn off the computer. So if the OP's criteria is that it's silly to spend money on something that is virtual, he shouldn't have bought the game in the first place.

People are free to spend their money on what they choose. This topic is BS, It has always been possible for MMORPGers to purchace the currency for the game they played. Its not recommended to purchase the gold from Ebay but, how does this money become available..farmers. What can you do really besides complain. Everyone will play the game as they like.

You want to flame about people buying thier gold insted of "EARNING" it like you. Well sadly enough lifes not fair. You'll learn this someday. If someone doesn't have the time to aquire such vast amounts of gold to say..buy FoW armors, then obviously they work a 9-5 .. maybe have a family also, and dont have the time to waste on farming. If it wasn't possible to players to purchase the gold, there would be very few players(farmers wouldn't exist due to boredom, and no profit. Ebay purchasers would not be around because everyone would have all the same items= no thrill of having better items then someone else, nothing would be rare or valuable. Ultimatly Guild Wars would fail as a game, their wouldnt be enough players for ANet to bother releasing a second chapter, they would have folded.

Due to major deflation, the Rare GOLD item would be crap. I like many others like the see.. "____ has droped a Rare Fellblade". Fact is that its a rare item wanted by players, and the farmers have the money and items.

Now what I agree with is that Boters should be baned. More power to actual farmers who sell gold on ebay, some of them could be someone you know, too young to have a job, try`n to make some money to go to the movies with a friend...who knows.

Whatever you want to think/believe you gotta realize the sale and purchase of virtue currancy will always be an issue. If it wasnt the game wouldnt have items that are "gold sinks" cause everything would be worthless. The purchasers of Ebay gold are evenning out the farmers. Picture farmers with an endless amount of money on thier hands...they could destroy the game.(thus no more Guild Wars, an inovative MMORPG) So this talk of people being banned for buy`n Gold on Ebay, I dont believe it, cause you'd see major inflation(farmers would buy all muchant stock on rare items with all theyre gold and merchants would go WAYYYYY up) thus no average players, which i believe are the people against this, would be able to have anything worth while, anything "cool" anything rare. It would take forever..

Example:

Say you spend.. 60 bucks for 1,000P on ebay then you purchase that perfect weapon, runes, guild/hall/cape,(Youd have everything the best you would want) not too far along after you get a perfect drop of the same type of item/rune, or even a vailuable green.. what happens, the person would most likely turn around and sell it IG, for the going price. Prices DROP..You get enough of that going on, the "legitimate" player you claim can also afford the item with a bit of saving.

Bottom Line: Ebay buyers=out farmers. Boters should be banned. EBay sale of virtual currancy will never cease. People would not play the game if they could not gain something in their own way from it.

*Thx for taking the time to read this, maybe even quote it. Just my thoughts, I will not reply to any quotes and or questions directed my way.

warning: I'm totally joking here!

A few pages back someone said 100k was going for $11 on Ebay. Wouldn't it be fun if, through a few plug-ins, pay 400 plats from your account and get Factions for free? Man I'd do that!

makes you think.....if things were really all plugged in, between real money, pay pal, and in-game plats.....you could take care of a few things.......