Henchmen Problem

Hey I know AI programming is a pain in the rear, I played with Age of Empires AI scripting for months, but...

Why is it Alesia can be behind me, not once cast a spell or attack, and 2 of the 3 mobs I pull go straight for her 9 out of 10 times? Christ I am sick of that. Fix it or count me out.

Really, this is about the only 'game-breaking' problem I've seen so far.

NOTE: if this is the wrong place for such a thread, I apologize, but seeing as to how GW's devs are too broke/lazy/busy/whatever to host their own forum, I have to guess.

I believe the problem is that the mob AI is ... well, "too smart". The monsters will attack what they perceive to be the least armored and/or most dangerous foe. This would logically be Alesia.

I know many of us are accustomed to having the *tank* run in first so that our support characters can do their jobs. However, GW has made their monsters a bit smarter than the average games.

Hope this answers your question. It certainly doesn't answer why Alesia runs out in front of combat about 60% of the time for me, but hey it's something.

Girls are attractive, what else ? Well, not Alesia. FEMALE MONKS WITH NO HAIR + TATOOS ON HEAD = Scary .

Tala is right. Alesia is the largest threat and generates the most aggro because of her healing. This is not a flaw in the AI, but is instead a feature.

Ok wait.

If she had used her healing, then sure I could see your point. Read my post again, please. She *stood* there and did nothing, yet was jumped immediately. You can not convince me that Ettins are intelligent enough to recognize her as a healer on sight.

Now if you are this Ettin, and you get stung by my necro's siphon life spell and you run in towards my group, get stuck by a couple fighters swords, are you really going to continue running towards someone that is just standing there? No, you will bring that club down upon Stephen or Little Thom's head, unless my necro is reasonably close.

There is no taunt in this game, to me that's part of the problem. Where's the logic in that anyway? Why do we need tanks if they are going to be ignored? My sister has a monk character, and when I group with her and leave that henchman healer home, the mobs do not go for her like this. Do the mobs just have flyers with Alesia's picture on it dropped by a Gnome flying a dragon?

Okay, I'm an Ettin. I'm not the brightest bulb in the box of humanoids, but I certainly know that *all* monks look the same basically.

I know that my brother JimBo got his ass handed to him by some lower level *heroes* because he tried to break open the armor on the warrior instead of hitting the squishy little girl in the back first.

Clyde, my cousin, who was with JimBo, ran away and told me to always take out the squishy ones first. Even if they do nothing to you directly or any of those other annoying "heroes", they will be responsible for my untimely demise and lack of good human flesh on the dinner table tonight.

If you ever play PVP watch as the entire other team tries to gang rape your monk. They are smart enough to know that if they don't take the monk out first (or close to it) your team will kick their ass. Apparently the monsters here have cable TV and are watching our Tombs fights. They know this trick too.

The only true issue here is that your sister knows enough to stay well back...out of the aggro circle of the beginning fight I'm guessing...before the combat starts. The hencies...all of them...try to stay close to you.

Once a mob picks you as the target it is very unlikely to let go. Your sister has figured this out and stays way far back...probaly out of healing range until the combat starts. Henchmen won't do this. They figure you are impressed with their stellar wit and will not leave your side unless it's to float 30 feet off the ground while you die.

Other than that...they are glue...and hence targets.

In PvP you kill the healers first since they make warriors near invincible; and they can resurrect the fallen. When I face a mob, I alt-tab through to find the healers, and I target them first -- even if they haven't done anything. Why? Beacause they _can_ and most likely _will_ make killing the foot-solidiers very hard (or impossible). It's good logic, and therefore, it is not suprising that the AI uses it. The problem is not with the attackers, but rather with Alesia, who should stay much much further back behind; so that her team is barely within healing range. But even if you follow that rule she still must come forward enough to heal the front-line warrior, probably closer than a ranger who has long-distance attack ability.

I've got a related question -- is it possible for you to block attackers as they run past you? It's not hard, and then they usually attack you. I'd say this is the #1 problem I have playing a healer with pick-up-groups; they let the enemy tanks right by them and when I got 3 of em pinning me down they have a funny tendency to yell: "why didn't you heal" My guess is that you may not be supporting your AI healer as much as you need to.

LOL that's kind of funny. And yes I know about PvP, and I understand that fine. However, I am playing the PvE for fun. I worked all day and fought all the stress and aggravation thrown at me today. I don't need more of the same for my entertainment. Hell, I might as well stay at work and get paid for it if it's to be that way.

I could take the healer agro fine too if it happened once in awhile, but my necro must look 'squishy' to the mobs too eh? But no, they almost always run past me to jump Alesia. She ends up dead, and before long, no one can rez her back up and we have to restart.

That's just not fun, I don't care who you are, well, ok I admit that maybe if you are the Ettin it would be fun, but that's not been proven yet either. So my point still stands, this behaviour needs changed or I'll find another game to *play*.

The AI can be annoying, but it's still AI, and as such predictable. Mobs will always target the weakest link (in most cases the healer hench), and that should really make your job a lot easier. Mobs will beeline their target, which makes it pretty simple to hook at least 75% of them onto you instead by body-blocking them. As soon as you break their pathing, they'll refocus on you.
If you're a caster, you've got a range defensive spells (like wards, anything in the monk protection line, some in the mesmer illusion line, ranger traps are awesome for this as well) to keep the healer hench up while she's focussed, or just dump a bunch on AoE spells, because everything is now nicely bunched for you.
Just adapt your skillbar a little to suit the way you're playing. You need a different set of skills and tactics when running with henchies instead of real people. Just be prepared to be a little flexible with your build.

I have noticed that they often go for her, but the majority of the time, I run into more than 1 or 2 enemies, and it's pretty evenly spread out. One or two stay back, like with our group, the others go for me, Orion, and many times Alesia (or whatever her name is). What I do is simply this, I find that many times a mob will agro on me even if I've not done a lot of damage to it, simply by the weapon I use. So I carry around a piece of shit axe (as a N/Me) and hit it a few times to get it off her, after all, I specialize in death magic, and as soon as I get a dead body I'll just heal all the health I lost with soul...whatever the hell it is, feast or something like that.

Also, since I'm a death magic necro the minions I'm constantly summoning/exploding work VERY VERY well as meatshields I find. I just lob a normal attack into the group, and my minions just swamp the enemy before our normal tanks even do. The monsters then agro on them, and THEY take all the hits, and often times they kill/nearly kill the mob. One or two usually go after one of my casters, but those aren't a problem, while the minions are beating up the others, me and the tanks are protecting the casters.

I'm afraid it might come down to choosing another game then. I think the developers probaly set the AI this way to simulate PVP type tactics. This is sort of a "learning curve" for the PVE types for when they ascend.

Now, that being said, I personally don't like PVP. I'm a big PVE fan like you. I have just learned different tactics to deal with their AI.

As stated above, I always use their single minded desire to kill Alessia to cast my most damaging spells. If I can take them out fast enough, she can still be alive.

I too run a Necro. A Ne/Mo specifically. I'm usually number 2 on the hit list unless I decided to bring Orion (prissy twit).

A little adjustment on your part in order to allow Alessia to tank for a few seconds will prevent much hair pulling on your part.

Give it a shot. Hate to lose a gamer to frustration.

I've found also that if you stand around and wait for the monsters to come to you then they'll target your monks and spellcasters first, but if you call and attack them before they've noticed you then they'll generally face off against the tanks who are attacking them. Moral of the story is to always attack the monsters before they get a chance to attack you.

Enemies seem to stop attacking a target if the target moves around a lot. Basically, they are far more inclined to target something that's close, and they don't like to move around a lot once they start attacking (it's actually rather good AI, you can't kite the enemies with a tank because they will just attack something else if the tank backs away).

So unlike other MMOs where the only thing that matters is how much threat you have, and it doesn't matter where you stand or that you aren't moving around at all... The best thing to do in GW to lose aggro is actually to run around (an action which would make your party very angry in some other games). The problem is that henchmen act very much like monsters in that THEY don't like the move around a lot during combat either. Once Alesia has situated herself and started healing people, she's not likely to move around, and if enemies start attacking her, they aren't likely to stop.

Edited title.

I see you are administrator, but may I ask you why you edited the title?
Does it mean we can't bring special attention towards the devs? Or do you suppose they really don't give a dang what the players say? Just curious

i have found that the mobs always own Alesia first because she always runs right in front of them. she's the closest target, so she gets whacked. i think that those who say it's a "feature" for Alesia to get whacked first have gotten a bit too caught up with "wishful thinking".

it's really pretty simple: Alesia's AI sucks horribly, so she dies first.

I have never seen Alesia run head first into battle, I'll say it plain and simple. The entire team is ALWAYS following me. The henchmen are always following me, or very close around me. Never before has Alesia rushed in on her own, or even with the group to attack someone, ever. She always stays her ground in the back and/or moves far off to one of the sides to do her job. The only problem I have with her AI is that when someone dies and she's fighting, she won't stop to rez for help the fight will just go on forever, but for this matter ANYONE should rez, and they don't. So the AI in that general direction kinda is annoying.

But I never have know Alesia to be a "tank" on her own, always just staying back, usually right next to Orion as they both cast their spells.

I think it is strange that people want to be able to use their old strategies for new games. I think one of the fun things about a new game, is to come up with new strategies to beat it.

"Protect the monk" is an important strategy in Guild Wars. You can even block the enemies physically from reaching the monk.

And I agree about Alesia, she play pretty good for a monk, if she dies it is usually the fault of the human players.

The baddie AI tends to target the henchman healer more often, particuarly in the areas around 'the wall' - but it's not ALWAYS..many times the monsters split up and target Alesia, Orion, and myself all at once. There was one pops-out-of-the-ground monster mob type near Hedge of D. that almost always went for me (E/Mes) instead of Aleisa or anyone else, and she did great at healing me while I cast Lava Font till they all died. Course, it only takes one good horse archer or something to keep Alesia occupied w/healing herself instead of anyone else... lol

However, I also have had times where she just stands behind me, initially - or any of them, really - until I've actually got off a round of attack first (ie, my first spell completes casting). Sometimes if you press the spacebar instead of just 'closest target'+'attack skill button' it seems to trigger henchies to attack, if they're doing the 'stand and pick their noses' routine.

So to Kosiam - you don't say how far you've gotten in the game...but if it isn't too far, I'd say...try to stick it out till the Wilds, you may find yourself adapting to their quirks and they'll get stronger/better skills and be more helpful, too. Alesia hardly ever dies anymore, for me...if she does, it's because I got over-confident/wasn't cautious enough and I would've been trounced even w/the best AI healer ever. heheh

Edit: sometimes word filters filter out not-bad words along w/the bad. sigh.

You want an odd AI quirk? :P

Go to the mission where you have to deliver the Sceptre of Orr to Vizier Khilbron (Sanctum Cay I think), and pickup the staff.

Let your party draw aggro and stay far away. The monsters will run after you.
Use a speed buff and move too fast for them to keep up:
The monsters will STOP chasing you... so long as you keep running away. If you move too fast, a monster gives up on you if they can't keep up, but here's the fun part: because of the special aggro the sceptre will give to you, no matter how far you may run, as long as your party draws aggro and you're not running too fast away from the monsters, they WILL get you. =.=

Toyed with this trying to do Sanctum Cay with just myself, a friend, and a healer henchmen, using Illusion of Haste and holding the staff.

I have noticed that "off to the side" can be in front when the opponents attack. I think she picks a position to run to based on where the mobs are are at the initial decision time. This changes as they move also, but she is in Healing Mode and doesn't always reposition.

I personally love how she runs past all her team mates right into the middle of the mobs - and then turns around and starts healing. Whisky Tango Foxtrot???

I guess my issue with it is that the mob AI seems to be WAY smarter than the Henchmen AI.

Yes. She rushes past rangers and spell casters to heal a warrior who has rushed out to greet opposing team's spell casters. Then, she turns around to heal you -- she is centering her self so that she can most efficiently heal the whole party. It's quite deterministic. It's also what a good healer should do; although a human-run healer will gladly let a suicidal player die rather than following them to a certain death. If she has a flaw, it's that she doesn't recognize when a team member is deep in enemy ground, surrounded, and a hopless cause.

You can't imagine how many humans go _way_ of of their healer's range and somehow expect to be healed. You have to give the AI healer some credit -- she tries to do the impossible. A solution to this: don't go running to the farthest-target out there; and if you have warrior henchmen, call targets -- perferably ones that are close.

When I'm soloing charr, I target the axe blades first. Yes, they are healed by the healers; however, they rush to you. So, if you target them first, your meat shields will focus on them and protect your casters. You can then change _your_ target to a down-stream caster (to interrupt them) but what ever you do, don't call that as the target, or your AI bots will spend 2 minutes running to the caster target leaving you to be axed to death by charr warriors. By this slight change in strategy I've been able to solo even tough charr areas; I did the tough boss just south of the courthouse as a lvl 8 with 3 lvl 8 henchmen. A bit of pulling, running, and selecting the warriors first did the trick. I died a horrible death the first try; beacuse I targeted the healer. This put my warriors deep into enemy territory, exposed my healer and let the charr warriors have unfettered shredding of my mage (which prevented him from getting off that firestorm since he started to run). Next time I targed the warriors; we had 4-5 of them aggrogating on Stefan, and Alysia was healing; the mage did a firestorm, and their ground-troops were a done deal. Then cleaning out the rangers was next (I was being a mesmer, and interrupting the healer).

The AI isn't bad. Just observe how it works, and use it to your advantage. Also, thanks for editing the title. This isn't an issue that the game developer's should be concerned with; it is a "user/training" issue.

The ranged henchies, and Alesia in particular for some reason (Mhelno isn't as bad, I was very happy when he replaced her, although he still does it from time to time) sort of treat where the player is as the center spot, and from there, go at a specific range - but not always in the correct direction, thus since range seems to play an importance to enemy aggro in this game (ie. stay far away and run around a lot, and you will get less aggro, even if you are doing a bajillion damage) Alesia very often ends up being extremely close to the enemies, and since she heals and hits decently with smites, and she has weak armor, shes an all to obvious target for your foes.

Yeah I'll agree that sometimes she ends up in a bad position anyways, but she's trying to do her job well is the thing, and it's not that she's doing it to herself, it's that the enemies are smart enough to know who they should murder first. And even then, it's often that they're attacking EVERYONE, but since she has weak armor she drops before anyone else often times.

I wasn't saying she didn't find herself in a bad position every now and then, but she was doing well in that position and it was always the baddies who screwed her over, we just couldn't kill all the ones that were on her at once.

My main point was that I'd never seen HER, of her own intelligence, just run past all of our team and try and just place herself in the middle of enemy forces as some people seem to suggest.

Just get used to the AI, it works out.

Whenever I play with henchmen (which is most of the time), I try to avoid attacking a mob if possible. I will wait/maneuver around until I can draw off a few at a time. It may take a little longer this way, but I'm usually sucessful. And while I have never seen Alesia run out in front before the fight, if I use Stefan instead of the Ranger (can't remember her name) then I have seen Alesia get in the middle of the battle trying to heal Stefan, who can get a good distance from the group. I've also seen Alesia "zone out" and just stand there behind me during a battle and I'm not sure what causes this. But, because of my tactics, the few instances this has occurred has not caused our party's demise. I actually have more concerns about Prince Rurik's AI behaviour than Alesia's, as his "rush into the thick of it" tactic doesn't mesh with my playing style at all.

It's probably been said, I didn't read everything between the 6th post and the last.

But to get my henchmen to stand still while the warriors charge ahead you have to know how they work. That is Melee henchmen once you choose a target (I use keyboard most of the time so ctrl+space). After I hit ctrl+space when the mobs are just outside the agro circle I cast a low cost skill that takes a moment or two. This will allow my toon to stand still (making all of the henchmen casters including Alesia) stand still while Little Thorn & Stephen charge into battle.

They are usually far enogh ahead after I cast healing signet to secure agro of 3 or more directly on them, then I come in and engage. The casters are usually safe to do what they want unless another group agro's or the Mage hits them with an AoE. That AoE is usually enough to generate enough agro to get 1 off and onto him but they still leave the healer alone.