What is scamming?

There has been a lot of talk on the forums about scamming. However, all of the forums seem to lead to one thing, what is scamming??

That's why I made this thread, to discuss not what Anet should do about scamming, or even if scamming is wrong, but really, what is scamming.

In my opinion, the parts of a scam are:
1. People make an agreement.
2. One of the parties in an agreement purposefully brakes the agreement for his profit, and anothers loss.
3. Some amount of deceivement is involved.

With this in mind, I have the 2 scenarious that I have I hope can clarify what a scam is.

A. 2 people agree on a trade for an item. One of the people intentionally puts either the wrong item, or the wrong amount of money, into the trading slot, with the hope the other person won't notice.
Is it a scam: YES. All 3 parts of a scam are involved.

B. 2 people agree on a trade for an item, but one of the people intentionally buys/sells the item for more/less than he knows it is worth. "Ill give you 3K for that black dye, trust me, thats the normal price."
Is it a scam: NO. There was an agreement, and it defintely was deceiving, but since the agreement was not broken it is not a scam.

My $.02

re: B

look, I think we can all figure out what scamming is.

when you trade w/somebody, it is the responsibility of BOTH parties to arrive at a 'fair' price.
it is not the responsibility of the buyer to tell the seller that the price seems low, or the responsibility of the seller to tell the buyer that he's paying a premium.
HOWEVER, if you pay 20g to some noob for black dye that you know is worth 6k, then you are clearly taking advantage of another player.
you can call it 'scamming', 'taking advantage', 'being a dick', or whatever you want to --- that's all just semantics.

now, where the line is drawn between being a good trader and ripping people off is for everyone to draw for themselves, but I'm pretty sure we are all aware of when we cross that line.

scamming is the smart preying on the stupid, its life lets move on

I think scamming is when you fool someone in any way for profit. It's not only changing items or money in trade, hopeing the other party won't notice, it's also lying about the rarity, avalability, use or comon price of an item.

Sorry, I don't agree with you.

Scamming != "taking advantage" nor is it the same as "being a dick" or "whatever you want to"

The switcheroo trick is scamming. Buying something for way less than what it's worth... that's exactly what it is, buying something for way less than what it's worth.

Don't blame the buyer for the seller's ignorance/negligence. It is in the best interests of the buyer to ensure that he is getting the lowest price possible, as is the interest of the seller to see to it that he is getting a price he is contented with.

If you can't protect your interests, nobody will do it for you.

I agree with you that buying something for way less than it's worth is just that. For example, someone selling a black dye for 3k. Another example is if someone asks for an offer, you can give them a low offer, and if they accept it that is not scamming. However if you have to lie or "play dumb" about the rarity or worth of an item that is scamming. Example is if someone asks what a black dye is worth or what the going price is and you say " I'm not sure I think it's 3k" then that is scamming.

I personnally think that paying less than an items worth, is smart buying. If you're going to sell something you should know what its worth. If I'm going to go sell a black dye, I am going to find out what it goes for then haggle out a price with a buyer. I will not ask the buyer what an item is worth. In my opinion, if you sell an item for less than its worth, its out of stupidity or generosity.

you can try to justify it all you want, but the black dye thing is clearly taking advantage of someone, or being a dick, as there is no dye trader in pre, so one party is advantaged w/knowledge that the other party could not reasonably be expected to have.
spin it all you want, but like I said, we all know when we cross that line....

in my opinion both A and B are not scams. in both cases, BOTH parties cliked the accept button. it just means they agrred to a bad trade coz they didn't pay the slitest form of attention. this kind of thing is more like a 'proffitable' trade for 1 of the parties involved.

a scam requires some1 to lose something and to gain NOTHING, like in this example:

Person X gives 100k gold to Person Y for a guild wars account. Person Y accepts trade and says something like "gg noob" to Person X instead of giving the actual account involved in the trade.

Until that scammer gets banned. Wow, genius! I can't know for sure but I've reported a couple with good documenting screenies of them trying to rip me off, so I bet I've closed a few accounts.

Scamming is unethical, but what I find even more disturbing is the mindset which supports that sort of behavior. "It's the victims fault for being weak/stupid/careless/etc."

Yes we all know that mugging vitims, if they were just more careful, would not have been atacked. Clearly the muggers did nothing wrong - the victim was weak and stupid and got what he/she deserved. That's Darwin in action you know.

If it's knowledge (buying a Vial of Dye: Black for 50g for example) or just making use of common mistakes (buying something 40g, instead of the agreed 40K), it's making use of the lack of the guy you're trading with, which is both a scam to me.

You're kinda right on the part about people selling stuff for too few because they don't know what it's worth. People shouldn't sell stuff they don't really know the value off, though, you're giving them a hard feeling afterwards, just because you want to earn a bit of money? Still pretty harsh, and you shouldn't do it.

That scenario is a scam. Scams are legally defined, and it isn't a matter of opinion. A scam is a fraud, and fraud is established when the following elements are shown:

1. An intentional false statement of fact or omission of a fact in a transaction
2. That is material to the decision to engage in the transaction
3. And is reasonably relied upon by the person engaging in the transaction
4. Causes
5. A harm or loss

When you say: "3K is the normal price, trust me" knowing that it isn't, you have committed a fraud. Pretty simple. Tell the truth. It can be fraudulent to omit a material fact, too! So if you log in and see that ecto is worth 100K now, and you go find someone who hasn't checked the prices yet and talk him into selling all his ecto to you for yesterday's price . . . guess what? It is technically a scam (though admittedly it would be hard for someone to prove what you knew or did not know).

This thread hasn't even reached page 2 and already sounds more like this one:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=123146