Today I took the time to play with the damage formula a little bit and I compiled some data pertaining to melee damage (Axe damage and skills in particular) I made some pretty graphs which show some interesting things that you may not have known prior to today. I add this onto the damage page over at GuildWiki direct link is here (scroll to the botton to see the data I added):
http://guildwiki.org/wiki/Damage
New data concerning damage formula (Warriors and interested folks should read!)
Willis13
Phrozenflame
I'm still reading it but I must say thats alot of hardwork you put in there, I can just thank you for it and foreever I will thank you.
strcpy
It would be interesting to see damage over time also.
For instance, you show that cleave does less damage than penetrating blow, though not by much. But at 4 adrenaline vs 5 who does more damage in the long run (I suspect cleave - but in combination of other skills the one adrenaline may not make much of a deal until really long periods of time)?
The sad thing, given your data, is that executioners strike is 8 adrenaline and penetrating blow is 5 - which, by your data, makes ES really crappy.
Did you compare real world data to the graphs you produced (or were they produced from real world data - they appear to be graphs of your damage equations)? If so do they take into account critical hits?
For instance, you show that cleave does less damage than penetrating blow, though not by much. But at 4 adrenaline vs 5 who does more damage in the long run (I suspect cleave - but in combination of other skills the one adrenaline may not make much of a deal until really long periods of time)?
The sad thing, given your data, is that executioners strike is 8 adrenaline and penetrating blow is 5 - which, by your data, makes ES really crappy.
Did you compare real world data to the graphs you produced (or were they produced from real world data - they appear to be graphs of your damage equations)? If so do they take into account critical hits?
Savio
A few notes:
The +damage from Executioner's Strike and the other attack skills ignore armor. Armor penetration actually does very little for Warriors, especially as base armor penetration (i.e. Strength and PB) doesn't stack.
Technically, weapon attributes can only go up to 17.
I don't get why 85 armor is used. 60 AL is best because it's typical squishy armor and attacks do 100% damage vs 60 AL, which simplifies damage calculations.
Eviscerate > Cleave.
The +damage from Executioner's Strike and the other attack skills ignore armor. Armor penetration actually does very little for Warriors, especially as base armor penetration (i.e. Strength and PB) doesn't stack.
Technically, weapon attributes can only go up to 17.
I don't get why 85 armor is used. 60 AL is best because it's typical squishy armor and attacks do 100% damage vs 60 AL, which simplifies damage calculations.
Eviscerate > Cleave.
Fenix Swiftblade
I know Strength doesn't stack with the Armor Penetration from attacks like Penetrating Blow, but I thought that it did stack with things like Judge's Insight, or piercing damage. Does it?
Sekkira
Strength doesn't work currently unfortunately.
fenix
That is quite helpful, although in practice, it seems there is a much greater difference between Executioner's Strike and Penetrating Blow than the graphs show. There is normally (at 13 in Axe Mastery) around 20-30 damage more from ES, when attacking squishy targets, whereas the difference is around 5-10 when attacking tanks.
zoozoc
very interesting, thanks for putting in all the hard work.
Willis13
Thanks for the comments guys, the idea of a graph with respect to time seemed interesting so I added two more graphs with time on the x axis. I don't have time to write the captions at the moments as I have to go to work but they are interesting to look at none the less. 
Stabber
Note: the article itself was not authored but the OP. His contribution is limited to the graphs at the bottom. Most of the credit for the article belongs to Pan Sola.
Just thought this should be cleared up, as people seem to be giving the OP credit for the entire article.
/long time guildwiki contributor
Just thought this should be cleared up, as people seem to be giving the OP credit for the entire article.
/long time guildwiki contributor
FireFox
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Originally Posted by Stabber
Note: the article itself was not authored but the OP. His contribution is limited to the graphs at the bottom. Most of the credit for the article belongs to Pan Sola.
Just thought this should be cleared up, as people seem to be giving the OP credit for the entire article. /long time guildwiki contributor |
Ensign
I would like to see how you are calculating the damage on Penetrating Attack, Cleave, and Executioner's Strike as I am unable to reproduce your graphs or your conclusions.
Peace,
-CxE
Peace,
-CxE
Willis13
28 * 2^([5x + (2.167x + 8) - 85]/40) = ExStrike
CyberNigma
That's some nice info. I had just created a small document full of numbers I crunched (for sword since its avg is in the middle) and different attribute assignments. I'll try to find a way to post it.
I did calculations based against the toughest opponents so that I could check out Strength. That is, I made my calculations against an opponent with AL 100 (collector's/glads 80 + 20 vs physical as warriors in PvP would probably be) with and without a Shield (AL +16).
I did find out that ( I didn't realize Str didn't work as someone in the thread mentioned) that Str 13/Swd14 did around 33% more dmg to 100+16 and 24% more damage to 100 (no shield) than Str 0/Swd14.
I also realized the tradeoff for health-reducing runes was not worth it based on those calculations (around 2%-3% increase over the best non-hp reducing method. Again, this didn't take into account skills, just regular straight-forward damage.
If it's true that Strength is broken (haven't fully tested it out in the game, only on paper as per the GuildWiki calculations and another either on this forum or GWOnline), then that throws everything off, of course. I also didn't realize the AP doesn't stack, which means the Wiki is wrong on that point, which really sucks as well.
Of course even if Strength is working/gets fixed if its not, then it only really benefits against higher AL opponents anyways.
I did calculations based against the toughest opponents so that I could check out Strength. That is, I made my calculations against an opponent with AL 100 (collector's/glads 80 + 20 vs physical as warriors in PvP would probably be) with and without a Shield (AL +16).
I did find out that ( I didn't realize Str didn't work as someone in the thread mentioned) that Str 13/Swd14 did around 33% more dmg to 100+16 and 24% more damage to 100 (no shield) than Str 0/Swd14.
I also realized the tradeoff for health-reducing runes was not worth it based on those calculations (around 2%-3% increase over the best non-hp reducing method. Again, this didn't take into account skills, just regular straight-forward damage.
If it's true that Strength is broken (haven't fully tested it out in the game, only on paper as per the GuildWiki calculations and another either on this forum or GWOnline), then that throws everything off, of course. I also didn't realize the AP doesn't stack, which means the Wiki is wrong on that point, which really sucks as well.
Of course even if Strength is working/gets fixed if its not, then it only really benefits against higher AL opponents anyways.
twicky_kid
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Originally Posted by CyberNigma
Of course even if Strength is working/gets fixed if its not, then it only really benefits against higher AL opponents anyways.
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That way 2 wars don't run into a stalemate because they can't dish out any dmg to each other.
From what I've noticed penetration as a whole doesn't work at all no matter what skill it is. Judge's addes 20% but there is no difference in dmg. I can do more dmg with regular attacks than PB majority of the time.
Sekkira
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Originally Posted by twicky_kid
From what I've noticed penetration as a whole doesn't work at all no matter what skill it is. Judge's addes 20% but there is no difference in dmg. I can do more dmg with regular attacks than PB majority of the time.
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Savio
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Originally Posted by Willis13
28 * 2^([5x + (2.167x + 8) - 85]/40) = ExStrike
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Sekkira
I've also discovered that the +15% while (x) works on the final weapon damage dealt and not the base damage of the weapon.
At Axe mastery at 12, Executioners does +34 damage which applied to the base damage is 62 at max. If I apply the +15% to the base damage, it should do up to 32.2(base + 15%) + 34(executioners) 66.2 damage (73.45 damage if strength was working).However, if I apply the +15% to the total damage of 28(base) + 34(executioners) 62, it should do up to 71.3 (79.11 damage if strength was working).
This is probably quite off topic, but it's been bugging me for a while and nowhere I have looked has axtually tested this.
http://cc.chaotic.co.nz/pics/gwdmg.jpg screenshot for further measure.
At Axe mastery at 12, Executioners does +34 damage which applied to the base damage is 62 at max. If I apply the +15% to the base damage, it should do up to 32.2(base + 15%) + 34(executioners) 66.2 damage (73.45 damage if strength was working).However, if I apply the +15% to the total damage of 28(base) + 34(executioners) 62, it should do up to 71.3 (79.11 damage if strength was working).
This is probably quite off topic, but it's been bugging me for a while and nowhere I have looked has axtually tested this.
http://cc.chaotic.co.nz/pics/gwdmg.jpg screenshot for further measure.
Spenser_For_Hire
when numbers come into picture and formulas start being introduced i lose interest, that article would of been 100x better if they just down to "brass tacks" so to speak
Ensign
Ah, that'd do it, you have a funky exponent. Pull that out and tack it onto the end as damage and it'll be accurate.
The numbers you should be getting shows Executioner's to outperform Penetrating attack for attack by a pretty wide margin, while Cleave and Penetrating are pretty close - with Penetrating dealing more damage on a critical.
Er, what now? I've tested that extensively and have no idea what you're talking about. The added damage from attack skills is a very clear damage shift.
Peace,
-CxE
The numbers you should be getting shows Executioner's to outperform Penetrating attack for attack by a pretty wide margin, while Cleave and Penetrating are pretty close - with Penetrating dealing more damage on a critical.
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Originally Posted by Sekkira
I've also discovered that the +15% while (x) works on the final weapon damage dealt and not the base damage of the weapon.
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Peace,
-CxE
Sekkira
Maybe I didn't word it correctly. I mean that the +15% damage doesn't just work on the base damage of the weapon but to the final result of damage from the action/attack/skill used.
So say you done 8 damage with an axe on a single attack, it would add 15% to that. If you done 50 damage with executioners strike, it would add 15% to that. The +15% doesn't trigger on the base damage of the weapon so say hitting for 28 damage with an axe and executioners, it wouldn't add 15% damage to the 28 and then add the 34 damage from the skill, it would add the 28 damage base damage and the 34 damage from the skill, then it would add +15% damage to the total result.
So say you done 8 damage with an axe on a single attack, it would add 15% to that. If you done 50 damage with executioners strike, it would add 15% to that. The +15% doesn't trigger on the base damage of the weapon so say hitting for 28 damage with an axe and executioners, it wouldn't add 15% damage to the 28 and then add the 34 damage from the skill, it would add the 28 damage base damage and the 34 damage from the skill, then it would add +15% damage to the total result.
Pharalon
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Originally Posted by Sekkira
Maybe I didn't word it correctly. I mean that the +15% damage doesn't just work on the base damage of the weapon but to the final result of damage from the action/attack/skill used.
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Also, what do you mean by strength being broken? It appears to be working as advertised for me.
Sekkira
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Originally Posted by Pharalon
I'm 100% sure that it doesn't. I just tested it and the numbers came out exactly as you'd expect if the the +15% is only applied to the base damage.
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Originally Posted by Pharalon
Also, what do you mean by strength being broken? It appears to be working as advertised for me.
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Pharalon
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Originally Posted by Sekkira
Are you using a PvE char? Because I haven't calculated the +20% customisation into it.
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Originally Posted by Sekkira
Sitting there for half an hour beating on 100/80 AL puppets, getting your adrenaline up and throwing Executioners at the 60 AL puppet with expected values on hand shows clearly that strength doesn't work at all.
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CyberNigma
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Originally Posted by Pharalon
Wild Blow at 0Str followed by Wild Blow at 12Str shows that it does. You also get 97 as opposed to 89 on an executioners crit.
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For example, according to what they are saying, in practice a 13 Strength will not add 13% AP. I still don't know where that came from as I have not searched the forums extensively to see who figured that out and how.
Brett Kuntz
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Originally Posted by Sekkira
Strength doesn't work currently unfortunately.
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Wiki has the crit rate at 1% to 1.5%, which in fact it is 1.46296% per stat or so (maybe a bit higher), if someone knows how to change that.
Red Locust
Just hit edit next to the appropriate section, change whatever you want to do, and save changes.
Sekkira
Ugh, I keep missing things and new things come to light in discussion about this. I'm just going to quit while I'm behind.
Stabber
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Originally Posted by kunt0r
Wiki has the crit rate at 1% to 1.5%, which in fact it is 1.46296% per stat or so (maybe a bit higher), if someone knows how to change that.
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frojack
This is somewhat off-topic but please bare with me. While farming Ettin with an axe (max dmg, +15 ^50%), I have repeatedly encountered Penetrating Blow doing MORE damage than both Cleave and Eviscerate. Let me explain...
I like using all 3 skills when the Ettin try to use Healing Signet. I don't know much about formula or stat's, but I cannot dispute what I see.
At full power, and I assume critical...
Cleave strikes for 110 dmg
Eviscerate strikes for 120 dmg
Penetrating blow strikes for 125 dmg!
I cannot understand this at all. Especially when all I read here is that Penetrating sucks. I have 15 in axe, 11 in tactics, and only 1 in strength. Could somebody please explain to me how this is possible?
These numbers are NOT user error btw. I farm a lot and have killed far too many Ettin and this what I have observed. If you would like pictures, I will make some the next time I go farming.
I like using all 3 skills when the Ettin try to use Healing Signet. I don't know much about formula or stat's, but I cannot dispute what I see.
At full power, and I assume critical...
Cleave strikes for 110 dmg
Eviscerate strikes for 120 dmg
Penetrating blow strikes for 125 dmg!
I cannot understand this at all. Especially when all I read here is that Penetrating sucks. I have 15 in axe, 11 in tactics, and only 1 in strength. Could somebody please explain to me how this is possible?
These numbers are NOT user error btw. I farm a lot and have killed far too many Ettin and this what I have observed. If you would like pictures, I will make some the next time I go farming.
Ensign
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Originally Posted by frojack
I like using all 3 skills when the Ettin try to use Healing Signet...
I cannot understand this at all. |
I.E., the damage formula would be [max weapon damage] * 2^(( 86 - ((armor level * (1 - armor penetration)) - 40)) / 40 ) + (damage add)
For an armor level of 84, you'd get 110 for Cleave, 120 for Eviscerate / Executioner's, and 127 for Penetrating. Rounding probably cleaned up the difference.
Peace,
-CxE
frojack
Ah I see. Thanks.
Sekkira
On top of that, Eviscerate lowers the maximum health by 20% which on a normal person at 480HP it's technically another 96 damage onto that.
Willis13
Thought I had aptly stated that my work was an addition to the damage page and that it was necessesary to scroll to the bottom where the graphs are to see my work, but apparently not. I was in no way trying to steal credit from the origional creator of the page, credit is a trivial thing and I only enjoyed seeing people find use in the actual work I had done. Yet my graphs seem to have dissapeared from the page without notice.
This project started out of personal interest in the subject and grew from there. I say thanks to those who appreciated what I did but I think I will continue this only as a subject of personal interest and will cease all additions to GuildWiki
This project started out of personal interest in the subject and grew from there. I say thanks to those who appreciated what I did but I think I will continue this only as a subject of personal interest and will cease all additions to GuildWiki
Savio
The graphs were removed because they were wrong and hard to read, not because of credit reasons. It doesn't help anyone if you know they're inaccurate but leave them up anyway.
Also, you can see the history of a page by clicking the History tab at the top, if you're so concerned. There's also the Discussion page to talk about the article.
Also, you can see the history of a page by clicking the History tab at the top, if you're so concerned. There's also the Discussion page to talk about the article.
Pan Sola
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Originally Posted by Stabber
Note: the article itself was not authored but the OP. His contribution is limited to the graphs at the bottom. Most of the credit for the article belongs to Pan Sola.
Just thought this should be cleared up, as people seem to be giving the OP credit for the entire article. /long time guildwiki contributor |
Willis13
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Originally Posted by Savio
The graphs were removed because they were wrong and hard to read, not because of credit reasons. It doesn't help anyone if you know they're inaccurate but leave them up anyway.
Also, you can see the history of a page by clicking the History tab at the top, if you're so concerned. There's also the Discussion page to talk about the article. |
Although one thing stayed true Cleave > Penetrating Blow > Executioners Strike with regard to damage over time.
Bugeater
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Originally Posted by Willis13
Although one thing stayed true Cleave > Penetrating Blow > Executioners Strike with regard to damage over time.
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Brett Kuntz
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Originally Posted by Stabber
If this was derived empirically, as I assume it was, can you give me a pointer to the raw data?
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