New data concerning damage formula (Warriors and interested folks should read!)

Willis13

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Feb 2006

Today I took the time to play with the damage formula a little bit and I compiled some data pertaining to melee damage (Axe damage and skills in particular) I made some pretty graphs which show some interesting things that you may not have known prior to today. I add this onto the damage page over at GuildWiki direct link is here (scroll to the botton to see the data I added):

http://guildwiki.org/wiki/Damage

Phrozenflame

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Aug 2005

I'm still reading it but I must say thats alot of hardwork you put in there, I can just thank you for it and foreever I will thank you.

strcpy

strcpy

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2005

One of Many [ONE]

It would be interesting to see damage over time also.

For instance, you show that cleave does less damage than penetrating blow, though not by much. But at 4 adrenaline vs 5 who does more damage in the long run (I suspect cleave - but in combination of other skills the one adrenaline may not make much of a deal until really long periods of time)?

The sad thing, given your data, is that executioners strike is 8 adrenaline and penetrating blow is 5 - which, by your data, makes ES really crappy.

Did you compare real world data to the graphs you produced (or were they produced from real world data - they appear to be graphs of your damage equations)? If so do they take into account critical hits?

Savio

Savio

Teenager with attitude

Join Date: Jul 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

A few notes:

The +damage from Executioner's Strike and the other attack skills ignore armor. Armor penetration actually does very little for Warriors, especially as base armor penetration (i.e. Strength and PB) doesn't stack.

Technically, weapon attributes can only go up to 17.

I don't get why 85 armor is used. 60 AL is best because it's typical squishy armor and attacks do 100% damage vs 60 AL, which simplifies damage calculations.

Eviscerate > Cleave.

Fenix Swiftblade

Fenix Swiftblade

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2005

Illusion of Competence

R/W

I know Strength doesn't stack with the Armor Penetration from attacks like Penetrating Blow, but I thought that it did stack with things like Judge's Insight, or piercing damage. Does it?

Sekkira

Sekkira

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2005

Canberra, AU

Strength doesn't work currently unfortunately.

fenix

fenix

Major-General Awesome

Join Date: Aug 2005

Aussie Trolling Crew HQ - Event Organiser and IRC Tiger

Ex Talionis [Law], Trinity of the Ascended [ToA] ????????????????&#

W/

That is quite helpful, although in practice, it seems there is a much greater difference between Executioner's Strike and Penetrating Blow than the graphs show. There is normally (at 13 in Axe Mastery) around 20-30 damage more from ES, when attacking squishy targets, whereas the difference is around 5-10 when attacking tanks.

zoozoc

zoozoc

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

Beaverton/OR

Disciples of Birkler [BIR]

very interesting, thanks for putting in all the hard work.

Willis13

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Feb 2006

Thanks for the comments guys, the idea of a graph with respect to time seemed interesting so I added two more graphs with time on the x axis. I don't have time to write the captions at the moments as I have to go to work but they are interesting to look at none the less.

Stabber

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

Plane of Oblivion

Sigilum Sanguis [keep]

Me/W

Note: the article itself was not authored but the OP. His contribution is limited to the graphs at the bottom. Most of the credit for the article belongs to Pan Sola.

Just thought this should be cleared up, as people seem to be giving the OP credit for the entire article.

/long time guildwiki contributor

FireFox

FireFox

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

Texas

We Wear Sombreros [文文文], Ugly Ducklings [ugly]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stabber
Note: the article itself was not authored but the OP. His contribution is limited to the graphs at the bottom. Most of the credit for the article belongs to Pan Sola.

Just thought this should be cleared up, as people seem to be giving the OP credit for the entire article.

/long time guildwiki contributor
QFT

Ensign

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

I would like to see how you are calculating the damage on Penetrating Attack, Cleave, and Executioner's Strike as I am unable to reproduce your graphs or your conclusions.

Peace,
-CxE

Willis13

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Feb 2006

28 * 2^([5x + (2.167x + 8) - 85]/40) = ExStrike

CyberNigma

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2006

San Antonio, TX

W/R

That's some nice info. I had just created a small document full of numbers I crunched (for sword since its avg is in the middle) and different attribute assignments. I'll try to find a way to post it.

I did calculations based against the toughest opponents so that I could check out Strength. That is, I made my calculations against an opponent with AL 100 (collector's/glads 80 + 20 vs physical as warriors in PvP would probably be) with and without a Shield (AL +16).

I did find out that ( I didn't realize Str didn't work as someone in the thread mentioned) that Str 13/Swd14 did around 33% more dmg to 100+16 and 24% more damage to 100 (no shield) than Str 0/Swd14.

I also realized the tradeoff for health-reducing runes was not worth it based on those calculations (around 2%-3% increase over the best non-hp reducing method. Again, this didn't take into account skills, just regular straight-forward damage.

If it's true that Strength is broken (haven't fully tested it out in the game, only on paper as per the GuildWiki calculations and another either on this forum or GWOnline), then that throws everything off, of course. I also didn't realize the AP doesn't stack, which means the Wiki is wrong on that point, which really sucks as well.

Of course even if Strength is working/gets fixed if its not, then it only really benefits against higher AL opponents anyways.

twicky_kid

twicky_kid

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jun 2005

Quite Vulgar [FUN]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CyberNigma
Of course even if Strength is working/gets fixed if its not, then it only really benefits against higher AL opponents anyways.
That is the point of str to begin with. You boost your weapon to do more dmg vs soft targets. You boost your str so you do more dmg vs high armor (wars).

That way 2 wars don't run into a stalemate because they can't dish out any dmg to each other.

From what I've noticed penetration as a whole doesn't work at all no matter what skill it is. Judge's addes 20% but there is no difference in dmg. I can do more dmg with regular attacks than PB majority of the time.

Sekkira

Sekkira

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2005

Canberra, AU

Quote:
Originally Posted by twicky_kid
From what I've noticed penetration as a whole doesn't work at all no matter what skill it is. Judge's addes 20% but there is no difference in dmg. I can do more dmg with regular attacks than PB majority of the time.
No, just tested it, AP from JI works fine.

Savio

Savio

Teenager with attitude

Join Date: Jul 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willis13
28 * 2^([5x + (2.167x + 8) - 85]/40) = ExStrike
The +damage from Exe and other skills is DShift, not in the AE.

Sekkira

Sekkira

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2005

Canberra, AU

I've also discovered that the +15% while (x) works on the final weapon damage dealt and not the base damage of the weapon.

At Axe mastery at 12, Executioners does +34 damage which applied to the base damage is 62 at max. If I apply the +15% to the base damage, it should do up to 32.2(base + 15%) + 34(executioners) 66.2 damage (73.45 damage if strength was working).However, if I apply the +15% to the total damage of 28(base) + 34(executioners) 62, it should do up to 71.3 (79.11 damage if strength was working).

This is probably quite off topic, but it's been bugging me for a while and nowhere I have looked has axtually tested this.

http://cc.chaotic.co.nz/pics/gwdmg.jpg screenshot for further measure.

Spenser_For_Hire

Spenser_For_Hire

Banned

Join Date: Feb 2006

when numbers come into picture and formulas start being introduced i lose interest, that article would of been 100x better if they just down to "brass tacks" so to speak

Ensign

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

Ah, that'd do it, you have a funky exponent. Pull that out and tack it onto the end as damage and it'll be accurate.

The numbers you should be getting shows Executioner's to outperform Penetrating attack for attack by a pretty wide margin, while Cleave and Penetrating are pretty close - with Penetrating dealing more damage on a critical.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekkira
I've also discovered that the +15% while (x) works on the final weapon damage dealt and not the base damage of the weapon.
Er, what now? I've tested that extensively and have no idea what you're talking about. The added damage from attack skills is a very clear damage shift.

Peace,
-CxE

Sekkira

Sekkira

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2005

Canberra, AU

Maybe I didn't word it correctly. I mean that the +15% damage doesn't just work on the base damage of the weapon but to the final result of damage from the action/attack/skill used.

So say you done 8 damage with an axe on a single attack, it would add 15% to that. If you done 50 damage with executioners strike, it would add 15% to that. The +15% doesn't trigger on the base damage of the weapon so say hitting for 28 damage with an axe and executioners, it wouldn't add 15% damage to the 28 and then add the 34 damage from the skill, it would add the 28 damage base damage and the 34 damage from the skill, then it would add +15% damage to the total result.

Pharalon

Pharalon

Beta Tester

Join Date: Jan 2005

Carebear Club

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekkira
Maybe I didn't word it correctly. I mean that the +15% damage doesn't just work on the base damage of the weapon but to the final result of damage from the action/attack/skill used.
I'm 100% sure that it doesn't. I just tested it and the numbers came out exactly as you'd expect if the the +15% is only applied to the base damage.

Also, what do you mean by strength being broken? It appears to be working as advertised for me.

Sekkira

Sekkira

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2005

Canberra, AU

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharalon
I'm 100% sure that it doesn't. I just tested it and the numbers came out exactly as you'd expect if the the +15% is only applied to the base damage.
Are you using a PvE char? Because I haven't calculated the +20% customisation into it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharalon
Also, what do you mean by strength being broken? It appears to be working as advertised for me.
Sitting there for half an hour beating on 100/80 AL puppets, getting your adrenaline up and throwing Executioners at the 60 AL puppet with expected values on hand shows clearly that strength doesn't work at all.

Pharalon

Pharalon

Beta Tester

Join Date: Jan 2005

Carebear Club

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekkira
Are you using a PvE char? Because I haven't calculated the +20% customisation into it.
Pvp char. +20%, +15%>50 @12axe, 0str. Executioners will crit for 89 everytime, as you'd expect if the 15% is only applied to the base damage.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekkira
Sitting there for half an hour beating on 100/80 AL puppets, getting your adrenaline up and throwing Executioners at the 60 AL puppet with expected values on hand shows clearly that strength doesn't work at all.
Wild Blow at 0Str followed by Wild Blow at 12Str shows that it does. You also get 97 as opposed to 89 on an executioners crit.

CyberNigma

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2006

San Antonio, TX

W/R

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharalon
Wild Blow at 0Str followed by Wild Blow at 12Str shows that it does. You also get 97 as opposed to 89 on an executioners crit.
I think he's referring to the Armour Penetration part of Strength, not the skills related to Strength. Some others mentioned that earlier in the thread as well, which I hadn't realized either (that Str is supposedly not working).

For example, according to what they are saying, in practice a 13 Strength will not add 13% AP. I still don't know where that came from as I have not searched the forums extensively to see who figured that out and how.

Brett Kuntz

Brett Kuntz

Core Guru

Join Date: Feb 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekkira
Strength doesn't work currently unfortunately.
Sure it does, Wild Blow hits do more dmg then reg crit hits. Str has always worked, it just isn't very good at all.

Wiki has the crit rate at 1% to 1.5%, which in fact it is 1.46296% per stat or so (maybe a bit higher), if someone knows how to change that.

Red Locust

Red Locust

Site Contributor

Join Date: May 2005

Just hit edit next to the appropriate section, change whatever you want to do, and save changes.

Sekkira

Sekkira

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2005

Canberra, AU

Ugh, I keep missing things and new things come to light in discussion about this. I'm just going to quit while I'm behind.

Stabber

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2005

Plane of Oblivion

Sigilum Sanguis [keep]

Me/W

Quote:
Originally Posted by kunt0r
Wiki has the crit rate at 1% to 1.5%, which in fact it is 1.46296% per stat or so (maybe a bit higher), if someone knows how to change that.
If this was derived empirically, as I assume it was, can you give me a pointer to the raw data?

frojack

frojack

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2005

London, UK

Rite Of Passage [RP]

E/Mo

This is somewhat off-topic but please bare with me. While farming Ettin with an axe (max dmg, +15 ^50%), I have repeatedly encountered Penetrating Blow doing MORE damage than both Cleave and Eviscerate. Let me explain...

I like using all 3 skills when the Ettin try to use Healing Signet. I don't know much about formula or stat's, but I cannot dispute what I see.

At full power, and I assume critical...

Cleave strikes for 110 dmg
Eviscerate strikes for 120 dmg
Penetrating blow strikes for 125 dmg!

I cannot understand this at all. Especially when all I read here is that Penetrating sucks. I have 15 in axe, 11 in tactics, and only 1 in strength. Could somebody please explain to me how this is possible?
These numbers are NOT user error btw. I farm a lot and have killed far too many Ettin and this what I have observed. If you would like pictures, I will make some the next time I go farming.

Ensign

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

Quote:
Originally Posted by frojack
I like using all 3 skills when the Ettin try to use Healing Signet...
I cannot understand this at all.
I'd guess it's an order of operations thing. The AP from Penetrating Blow affects the ettin's armor before the -40 from Healing Signet, raising the base weapon damage disproportionally high. Since all the damage adds ignore armor that'd make Penetrating Blow outperform the other skills when the enemy is using Healing Signet.

I.E., the damage formula would be [max weapon damage] * 2^(( 86 - ((armor level * (1 - armor penetration)) - 40)) / 40 ) + (damage add)

For an armor level of 84, you'd get 110 for Cleave, 120 for Eviscerate / Executioner's, and 127 for Penetrating. Rounding probably cleaned up the difference.

Peace,
-CxE

frojack

frojack

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2005

London, UK

Rite Of Passage [RP]

E/Mo

Ah I see. Thanks.

Sekkira

Sekkira

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2005

Canberra, AU

On top of that, Eviscerate lowers the maximum health by 20% which on a normal person at 480HP it's technically another 96 damage onto that.

Willis13

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Feb 2006

Thought I had aptly stated that my work was an addition to the damage page and that it was necessesary to scroll to the bottom where the graphs are to see my work, but apparently not. I was in no way trying to steal credit from the origional creator of the page, credit is a trivial thing and I only enjoyed seeing people find use in the actual work I had done. Yet my graphs seem to have dissapeared from the page without notice.

This project started out of personal interest in the subject and grew from there. I say thanks to those who appreciated what I did but I think I will continue this only as a subject of personal interest and will cease all additions to GuildWiki

Savio

Savio

Teenager with attitude

Join Date: Jul 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

The graphs were removed because they were wrong and hard to read, not because of credit reasons. It doesn't help anyone if you know they're inaccurate but leave them up anyway.

Also, you can see the history of a page by clicking the History tab at the top, if you're so concerned. There's also the Discussion page to talk about the article.

Pan Sola

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2005

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stabber
Note: the article itself was not authored but the OP. His contribution is limited to the graphs at the bottom. Most of the credit for the article belongs to Pan Sola.

Just thought this should be cleared up, as people seem to be giving the OP credit for the entire article.

/long time guildwiki contributor
Technically I was only responsible for editing the article into its current layout. The foundation of the equations was laid down by SonOfRah in his damage article hosted on gwonline, with additional research and corrections done by various members of the guildwiki community. But thanks for trying to get the attribution straight anyways (-:

Willis13

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Feb 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savio
The graphs were removed because they were wrong and hard to read, not because of credit reasons. It doesn't help anyone if you know they're inaccurate but leave them up anyway.

Also, you can see the history of a page by clicking the History tab at the top, if you're so concerned. There's also the Discussion page to talk about the article.
haha, yeah I figured that. I was just over dramatizing this whole debaticle for kicks and wasn't going to redo them correctly because they aren't half as interesting the correct way. Although one thing stayed true Cleave > Penetrating Blow > Executioners Strike with regard to damage over time.

Bugeater

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2005

looking for a guild

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willis13
Although one thing stayed true Cleave > Penetrating Blow > Executioners Strike with regard to damage over time.
I didn't crunch the numbers, so I'll take your word for it (dangerous, I know). But one thing that's hard to model is the interaction between adrenal skills. Since using one takes a strike from all the others you have on your bar, skills with low adrenal cost really hurt other adrenal skills. While Cleave by itself may out perform both others, it's a huge adrenaline sink. If you're Cleaving every 5th hit, then you're dropping your addrenaline gain by 1/5*<Number of Adren Skills>. If for some silly reason you had other adrenaline spam skills on your bar (like Penetrating or Fear Me) then your adren gain really takes a beating.

Brett Kuntz

Brett Kuntz

Core Guru

Join Date: Feb 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stabber
If this was derived empirically, as I assume it was, can you give me a pointer to the raw data?
That number comes from over 6000 consecutive hits per stat under testing conditions. The actuall number was slightly higher but I lost it and the data so I don't know it exactly. But basically, the more hits I used in the test, the higher that % got. According to the devs the hardcoded crit rate is 1% per stat across all weapons. According to tens of thousands of hits, there is a bug causing it to be sporatic and often around the 1.5% rate.