Cyclone Axe Executioners Strike Gladiators defense {Elite} Bonetti's defense Live Vic Healing Sig Healing Breeze Mending
Not a bad build but there is wasted healing here. I have seen so many builds like the above. Substitute Watchful Spirit for anything but mending or shielding hands or healing touch....name it the options are endless. You have 2 skills that lower your chance of taking damage down to 25%. You have 4 healing skills of which you will never use 2 (heal sig and healing breeze). When you cyclone a large group you are getting enough healing from Liv Vic to keep your health at full.
When farming griffons/trolls/minos you will never need more than Liv Vic and Mending. If you do than you are doing something wrong. I also see more stances then needed all the time. You are only ever going to need bons def and glads def. When glads is recharging you just spam cyclone+liv vic. If you have a vamp axe then you get health from liv vic and your vamp mod so healing is never an issue. You have a constant 75% chance to block incoming melee attacks. You do constant high damage with cyclone and constant healing in the process.
My next rant
Now lets talk damage to all you cyclone farmers. Many of you seem to use SoJ in favor of Glads Def. This is a very bad choice. You cannot as a Warrior go above 12 in Smite but you can in Tactics. You can get your Tactics as high as 16 (max 12 +3 sup + 1 helm) without having anything other than armor and a rune to buff it. You will do more damage by maxing Tactics having a high strength and meeting your weapon req than you will ever do with SoJ. While SoJ is good for some areas (ie Snake Dance Giant farming) it is just a poor choice for trolls/minos/griffons.
Lets compare 2 populare build attributes for a cyclone warrior with SoJ and one with Glads Def.
Attribs:
SoJ
Smite = 12
Healing = 8
Tactics = 13 (10 +3 sup)
Str = 0
Axe = 0
Glads
Smite = 0
Healing = 8
Tactics = 16 (12 +3 sup + 1 helm)
Str = 11 (8 + 3 sup)
Axe = 9 (7 +2 major)
In the SoJ build I put tactics high for Bons Def. because we need some energy regen correct? In that build we have 5 dead attribute points.
In the Glads build we have 1 dead attribute point. We also have a high strength for extra damage and armor penetration with cyclone. Our Tactics is high so glads and bons last longer. We still have our 8 healing for mending and our vamperic axe now does the below damage with each individual hit.
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Just want to mention something here. While I can do the larger group without much of a problem I find that the time I spend "gathering" usually equals itself out if I split them into 2 groups. One front and one back. I spend less time gathering but a little more time killing since it is 2 groups. Since speed is what I am going for when I farm them I find that it is a little faster with 2 groups. This way balths energy gain is neglagent and healing breeze becomes obsolete in almost any format due to the low probablility of running over traps while gathering.|
Originally Posted by Esign
As an example, if you had a normal, customized (20% more damage) 15-22 damage Vamp Axe, and a level 9 Axe attribute, each swing with the weapon would deal:
15 × 1.20 × 2(( 5 × 9 - 60 ) / 40) + 3 = 16.88 minimum damage 22 × 1.20 × 2(( 5 × 9 - 60 ) / 40) + 3 = 23.36 maximum damage While swinging the same sword with a level 12 attribute would deal: 15 × 1.20 × 2(( 5 × 12 - 60 ) / 40) + 3= 21.0 minimum damage 22 × 1.20 × 2(( 5 × 12 - 60 ) / 40) + 3= 29.4 maximum damage Will this finally solve the question of which is better and why? I doubt it because some people will never learn. I am sure to get flamed for that comment and there are many out there that will conside parts of my post wrong and that is ok. This is what I consider the best possible build for farming trolls/minos/griffons and the above is why. Cyclone Axe Bons Def Glads Def Liv Vic Mending The rest of your skills are fluff. Use them for damage dealing/inturrupts/speed to destination it doesn't matter. You will never need more than that to kill the mob as fast as possible as a W/Mo. I hope you all understand that I am writing this to speak directly to W/Mo builds for griffons/trolls/minos. There are many reasons to change your healing and stance tactics with other creatures in the game.
tryptamine_xxp
i agree
 . however ive made a crazy addition to this :P i also use vigorous spirit cause now that i get double hp i can easily wear tactics-axe superiors(even strenght for the armor penetration of3% :P). kinda makes it bit less safe but thats the way i go  . also pointing out its nice to use sprint to get there and a nice thrill of victory in case you wana kill boss! w/mo farming ftw!!! Zerg
How does an Vamp axe go with Swordmanship?
Me NoFat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerg
How does an Vamp axe go with Swordmanship?
Changed...thanks for pointing that out.
Me NoFat
Quote:
Originally Posted by tryptamine_xxp
i agree
. however ive made a crazy addition to this :P i also use vigorous spirit cause now that i get double hp i can easily wear tactics-axe superiors(even strenght for the armor penetration of3% :P). kinda makes it bit less safe but thats the way i go . also pointing out its nice to use sprint to get there and a nice thrill of victory in case you wana kill boss! w/mo farming ftw!!! I wear all those sups and never need more than liv vic and mending. Vig Spirit is not needed. My health never gets below 1/3 to 1/2. That is the entire point of this thread. Sprint and ToV are viable options in th open space.
The Mo Show
hmm why not get Victo's Blade (vamp haft) and use Hundred Blades? that would be plenty of healing, and you'd still have 4 skill slots left to do more damage
Me NoFat
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mo Show
hmm why not get Victo's Blade (vamp haft) and use Hundred Blades? that would be plenty of healing, and you'd still have 4 skill slots left to do more damage
You get more healing from cyclone axe and if you used hundred blades you lose Glads Def which is part damage reduction part damage. Why would you ever want to use hundred blades? It would simply increase the amount of time it takes to farm. Most of us farm for money and not enjoyment so to use an old phrase...time is money.
berko
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me NoFat
I wear all those sups and never need more than liv vic and mending. Vig Spirit is not needed. My health never gets below 1/3 to 1/2. That is the entire point of this thread.
Sprint and ToV are viable options in th open space. I think people bring that extra health skills because they don't like seeing their health drop at all. It makes them feel safer when their health is full all of the time. That and the fact that they never bothered experimenting with the build and they just took it like it is. That's just my opinion.
Murder In China
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esign
As an example, if you had a normal, customized (20% more damage) 15-22 damage Vamp Axe, and a level 9 Axe attribute, each swing with the weapon would deal:
15 × 1.20 × 2(( 5 × 9 - 60 ) / 40) + 3 = 16.88 minimum damage 22 × 1.20 × 2(( 5 × 9 - 60 ) / 40) + 3 = 23.36 maximum damage While swinging the same sword with a level 12 attribute would deal: 15 × 1.20 × 2(( 5 × 12 - 60 ) / 40) + 3= 21.0 minimum damage 22 × 1.20 × 2(( 5 × 12 - 60 ) / 40) + 3= 29.4 maximum damage Typo, it's sword not axe.
Battle Torn
I use Breeze when farming 20-25 griffons + minotaurs and can do this with some frequency so I always have this in my skillbar. I do agree however that this is overkill except in only certain circumstances.
Me NoFat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battle Torn
I use Breeze when farming 20-25 griffons + minotaurs and can do this with some frequency so I always have this in my skillbar. I do agree however that this is overkill except in only certain circumstances.
I could probably do about 40-50 griffons without healing breeze as my health never drops when doing 20+. The only problem is finding an area with that many griffons...lol
Battle Torn
25 Griffons+minotaurs is the most you can get now unfortunatley, You usualy have a boss in there too and some pesky rockshot can pop up
agreed Breeze is overkill but there is still the odd occasion when it is necessary (if you run through a fire trap or get blided) I only farm with 330hp so this can warrant breeze.I just dont need any other skills on my bar for farming...maybe something for quicker killing bosses
Bob Aeclucen
I totally aggree with Me NoFat on this one. With the build he describes you can take on all the griffons + minotaurs at once without any problems. Same goes for Trolls. Even if rockshots come to annoy you, it won't matter, as long as you don't get close enought to them to fall in their traps. I've have 4+ rockshots on me while taking care of the griffons and it hasn't changed anything... Even took care of the rockshots at the end
 . Healing Breeze would be overhealing, even when tanking all of them, unless you screw up somewhere you shouldn't get below 60-70% hp. Due to the horrendous 12 req of my axe, I have to farm with 330 hp too, I've never felt the need to add any more healing to my build. Now, I wish there would be a quick way to get rid of the pesky monk griffon boss and the ranger troll boss. Takes forever to kill them.
elric dragonsblood
the monk boss i dont do but for the ranger troll i use.
watchfull spirit heal sig dolyak sig bonneti's desperation blow wild blow <-- this ends stances like escape so you can get in alot more damage when the troll uses troll ungent cyclone axe gladiators defense stength - 15 sup rune + hat axe mastery - 9 minor rune tactics - 14 sup rune sup absorbtion major vigor full galdiators except for knights boots. i use a vampiric cleaver of giantslaying 3-1 vampiric 6-28 req 9 + 15% when enchanted 12% against giants gold tall shield 16 armor 9 tactics -2 when enchanted i have 371 heath with this build and 27 energy and it works real good for me. ForeverGoNe
Thanks Me Nofat, I've been looking for the ideal farming build and I think I may have found it.
1 Quick question though, with balthazar's spirit you get adrenaline and energy out of it. Is your source of adren + energy primarily relying on cyclone axe and bonettis? Perhaps replacing healing sig for balthazar's spirit? Thanks alot!
Battle Torn
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I totally aggree with Me NoFat on this one. With the build he describes you can take on all the griffons + minotaurs at once without any problems. Same goes for Trolls. Even if rockshots come to annoy you, it won't matter, as long as you don't get close enought to them to fall in their traps. I've have 4+ rockshots on me while taking care of the griffons and it hasn't changed anything... Even took care of the rockshots at the end . Healing Breeze would be overhealing, even when tanking all of them, unless you screw up somewhere you shouldn't get below 60-70% hp. Due to the horrendous 12 req of my axe, I have to farm with 330 hp too, I've never felt the need to add any more healing to my build. Now, I wish there would be a quick way to get rid of the pesky monk griffon boss and the ranger troll boss. Takes forever to kill them.
Im confused a little, surely if your not using breeze in your bar then you are using another attack skill that is killing the boss quickly??? the secret is to use glads def when the boss uses berserker stance The build I have used for 5 months is similar to Me No Fat from what I can make out from his post (apart from attribute allocation) and I am no beginner at farming. In fact I am constantly on the lookout to improve my build in order to achieve the best build for farming possible and have trained many people to farm and compared many builds with my own by pairing and comparing. I also know how to take on 25 griffons easily but I think the statement about 40-50 would be impossible...sorry but theoretical bragging aside, the number of hits you will take even with 75% chance to block would mean you would be dead before your next cyclone so the healing from it would be useless, and not to mention the damage you take while running to gather them all...at high numbers you will be dead before you group 50 of em together. There is absolutely no discussion in this. If you disagree then please be ready to come with me to augury and show me your tactics to prevent this with 25 as currently the most you can get there..... if in fact you actually know how to agro 25 enemies at once..its not easily done. I make a rule that never believe someone bragging in this forum, because I have proven so many wrong that I have lost count (ie, better builds, more gold etc) If you want to know what 25 look like then see below (note the rockshot on the radar attacking me also) also post vids or screenshots and put your money where your mouth is or Pm me in game.  My opinion on breeze stands until someone proves it un-necessary in every occasion while farming especially in high numbers. Dont confuse my build with one that takes 3 groups a time where this would apply look at this video to see, and you notice I dont use breeze here so indeed for normal farming it is overkill, but I disagree when fighting larger numbers. http://www.yourfilelink.com/get.php?fid=26421 If it werent for the traps or fighting 4-5 groups then I maybe would agree with you, but the traps are there and you do run through them sometimes....and when gathering more than 3 groups means you often criss cross over rockshot spawning areas that are trapped....I have done this countless times remember. Lastly there is some confusion about farming... people farm 1-2 groups and think this is farming.... my discussion is regarding 5-6 groups of up to 25 enemies which changes the rules and anyone saying differently hasnt tried or been able to agro that many or still think back to the pre-nerf of SoJ and the unlimited chasing. I have the best armour in the game (FOW Glads set with FoW ascelon boots with sup absorption rune) also the best shield, axe, other runes, attribute allocation and there is nothing wrong with my timing so I know some comments are false and fictional based on what some think may happen with higher numbers rather than trying it out. Farming is only about timing and not skill.... there is nothing anyone can be doing witht he build discussed that hasnt been done before. The damage from 50 enemies (at lvl 20+) would put you under even with best amour, runes and 75% chance to miss in the time cyclone recharges....end of discussion.
wsmcasey
i have a 55monk that I've farmed with since about june of last year. it got boring so i started farming warrior for variety. The axe builds worked okay, but i've had better success with the sword line and tactics....riposte & deadly riposte with glads defense simply owns and kills super fast imo....now im working on a necro to farm with.
Archaic Nightmare
Cheers for pointing out the obvious with your post but it is still very useful info. When I first started farming griffs I too used far too much healing as I knew no better and prob used the first one mentioned in the first post switching healing sig for vig spirit. The extra healing seems important though at first until you stop and think about what you are trying to achieve. Nowadays I simply run with the five important skills listed above with dolyak signet, executioners strike and either dismember or sprint. All five sup runes allows 8 healing, 12 strength, 12 axe and 14 tactics which allows for momentary lapses as boredom kicks in. The shield from Mamnoon Lagoon collector (+45 and -2 rec dam) and a vamp axe of fortitude gives 380 health and makes things all very simple. The rockshots are easy to deal with and can (as has been said before) be simply dealt with at the end after you pull them from the traps.
Battle Torn
Thank you for poiting out the obvious. You have told everyone what they already know and said nothing about the previous posts. What happend if your fighting 20+ enemies and as you switch to a new enemy he runs (as he is the one thats waits but is in the group) and you follow right into a trap?...this happens and you would die mid fight if you didnt have breeze.... of course you can lead em away from the traps but the thing about traps is that sometimes as your herding larger numbers of groups you run into em just as the fight begins. I take breeze because of months of farming telling me what skills to take when those certain circumstances happen.
I dont feel this is a discussion any more use your head.....Breeze is overkill unless you farm 20-25 enemies... anyone saying otherwise can team with me and show me and then we can discuss this after in this forum. All Im asking is for proof to silence any 'would-be exagerators'...or even better still learn something I dont already know about farming which would be brill I will await the Pm in game
SaintGreg
the original post is a bit biased. The build for SoJ warrior would not have such high tactics, because without glad's defense, tactics is useless as long as bonetti's lasts long enough to stay up between cyclone axes. In reality it would probably look more like:
Smite: 12 Healing: 8 Axe: 13 (9 + 3 + 1) Strength: 8 (5 + 3) Tactics: 3 (2 + 1) if you really want to meet your shield's req (even though it affects less than half of the enemies) you could drop axe mastery and put it into strength or tactics whichever is your shields req. At 12 smiting, SoJ lasts 18+20%=22 sec with 45 recharge. It does 41 damage per hit. At 16 tactics, Glad's defense lasts 11 sec with 30 recharge. It does 33 damage per hit so 24.75 average damage per swing. Glads defense does damage faster clearly, because the knockdown from SoJ slows attack speed by about 3 times or so, but the down time consideration means that they are closer than they look at first glance - each probably does close to the same damage output over the long haul. Glad's defense IS superior to SoJ for a warrior farming, but it isn't simply because of damage, the damage is pretty close.
Me NoFat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battle Torn
I also know how to take on 25 griffons easily but I think the statement about 40-50 would be impossible...sorry but theoretical bragging aside, the number of hits you will take even with 75% chance to block would mean you would be dead before your next cyclone so the healing from it would be useless, and not to mention the damage you take while running to gather them all...
The damage from 50 enemies (at lvl 20+) would put you under even with best amour, runes and 75% chance to miss in the time cyclone recharges....end of discussion. Battle - My comment on 50 was out there. I was using it to drive home a point. Even at 25 though I will never die without a breeze...unless I do something stupid. I have not stepped on a trap in so long I can't remember. There is no need for breeze but take it if it makes you feel safer. If you don't buy this then I would be more than happy to show you in game.
Me NoFat
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintGreg
the original post is a bit biased. The build for SoJ warrior would not have such high tactics, because without glad's defense, tactics is useless as long as bonetti's lasts long enough to stay up between cyclone axes. In reality it would probably look more like:
Smite: 12 Healing: 8 Axe: 13 (9 + 3 + 1) Strength: 8 (5 + 3) Tactics: 3 (2 + 1) if you really want to meet your shield's req (even though it affects less than half of the enemies) you could drop axe mastery and put it into strength or tactics whichever is your shields req. At 12 smiting, SoJ lasts 18+20%=22 sec with 45 recharge. It does 41 damage per hit. At 16 tactics, Glad's defense lasts 11 sec with 30 recharge. It does 33 damage per hit so 24.75 average damage per swing. Glads defense does damage faster clearly, because the knockdown from SoJ slows attack speed by about 3 times or so, but the down time consideration means that they are closer than they look at first glance - each probably does close to the same damage output over the long haul. Glad's defense IS superior to SoJ for a warrior farming, but it isn't simply because of damage, the damage is pretty close. It is not a biased opinion as I have a 55 and I also use SoJ when it is the better choice. There is no doubt that it is a great skill and has its uses as a warrior. Those uses however do not include griffon farming.
Me NoFat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battle Torn
Thank you for poiting out the obvious. You have told everyone what they already know and said nothing about the previous posts. What happend if your fighting 20+ enemies and as you switch to a new enemy he runs (as he is the one thats waits but is in the group) and you follow right into a trap?...this happens and you would die mid fight if you didnt have breeze.... of course you can lead em away from the traps but the thing about traps is that sometimes as your herding larger numbers of groups you run into em just as the fight begins. I take breeze because of months of farming telling me what skills to take when those certain circumstances happen.
I dont feel this is a discussion any more use your head.....Breeze is overkill unless you farm 20-25 enemies... anyone saying otherwise can team with me and show me and then we can discuss this after in this forum. All Im asking is for proof to silence any 'would-be exagerators'...or even better still learn something I dont already know about farming which would be brill I will await the Pm in game
There is no need to ever run over a trap....Add me and we can compare...IGN = Me Nofat
Battle Torn
Ok will do, stepping on traps isnt a usual thing though, only wheny your trying to herd large groups it can happen. You know how it is when sometimes you run out of Augury and the Rockshot just keep spawning..I have had 12 before I reached the second set of 3 minatours. Sometimes Ive had Rockshot appear once Ive been farming without moving and ran back into their trap. As I never use any other attack skills I bring Breeze for these cases, but they are rare so unless this happens I wont be able to prove this...but you know breeze in these cases would help already. This is the same with herding 25 enemies... it only happens if the spawn is right so unless this also happens we cant compare if Breeze is necessary..... but we can give it a go Im interested in this
anyway Ill add you but I have the feeling we will only be showing each other the same farming build but Im up for anything that can improve things.
Me NoFat
I know the problem already there will be no need to demonstrate.
Drop Breeze and add sprint. There is no need to farm until you reach the griffons. Once there I believe that you are experianced enough to avoid the traps. After you apply Mending and Liv Vic you should have enough energy for one sprint that you use when rounding the bend to start farming. During the 1st attack you will have to build addrenline while Glads is doing its job. After that the norm spam of cyclone + bons until glads is up again. I believe that that will solve all your issues with rockshots. We can still get together but I believe it will be pointless once you give a /doh 
Battle Torn
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Drop Breeze and add sprint. There is no need to farm until you reach the griffons. Once there I believe that you are experianced enough to avoid the traps. After you apply Mending and Liv Vic you should have enough energy for one sprint that you use when rounding the bend to start farming. During the 1st attack you will have to build addrenline while Glads is doing its job. After that the norm spam of cyclone + bons until glads is up again.
If you check out my screenie you can see I have sprint already |
and if you check out my vid I posted you will see I know how to get past rockshot and when to start farming (this is where the vid begins), its not such a simple problem as sprinting past rockshot. The problem isnt witht the first group its witht the second while you are agroing and keeping them interested. If I were to leave breeze it would be for an axe attack for bosses. I have nearly 4mil exp so I am pretty experienced, but when herding 25 enemies over rockshot spawning area it isnt allways possible not to cross an area they poped up and run the risk of traps and you simply cant allways see where they laid them, this is the problem. Its very difficult keeping 5 groups interested in you until you can farm them and it can take a little running around, maybe this is something you do differently? and therefore no need for breeze. I would still like to team up anyway, as I said my intention is to improve and get to the heart of a perfect build, not to be negative in any way etc I can see now that you havent had the problems with Rockshot I have had so that means we are farming different spots maybe or using different techniques, all I know is until someone shows me them taking on 25 enemies (5-6 groups) without breeze then I will trust my own extensive farming experience and it will remain on my skillbar.
Me NoFat
Finally watched your video.
Not much that you can learn from watching me. I would just say that maybe I am more aware of Rockshot spawn points and where I am running. I would like to note that you could carry heal sig instead of breeze and use that when you bring glads up if you happen to cross a trap. The spike from it with str high is just as good and it costs 0 energy. I also would not use balths spirit but you have open slots so that is a preference call I guess. I just don't like having -1 regen on energy when not fighting. I think you would be better served with the dismember + exec strike combo for bosses then you are with breeze and balths aura but again I think this just boils down to both having a high amount of experiance and comfort with their build.
Battle Torn
I ran a few farms again last night and when trying to lure 5 goups... I have to say its impossible without taking alot of damage, in fact I could only still manage this at between a quarter and half health. Im not talking about 3 groups etc... just when your trying to get 5 groups of em on you at once. Rockshot are random and they did spawn in the middle of doing this, but I didnt have to run past them so didnt fall foul to their traps. I think best thing would be to post a second video of me luring 5 groups and show you that it cant be done without breeze (or similar) due to the huge damage you take while herding them together. Balthazars is a must as I can build up energy while luring, but I am playing with the idea of switching out for an axe attack. -1 degen is avoided by simply double clicking the Live vicariously icon on screen (not skillbar) and cancel it meaning no degen
then re-cast after your glads defence in the next battle. You usualy finish farming with near-to-full energy anayway so its not really a problem to be honest, but pref as you say.Healing sign when farming?... surely the -40AR would kill you in high mobs even with 75% chance to miss from glads etc, though I havent tried this for this reason although it may be fine for smaller groups also with balthazar energy is never an issue...never I think a more accurate statement that having anything other than mending a vamp axe and live vicariously when farming is necessary for beginner farmers as it would allow mistakes and learning how to get the timing right. It isnt necessary for experienced farmers who know what they are doing, but again becomes necessary for pro farmers who take it to the next level and dont farm the usual 2-3 groups a time, because then the rules change and there are other factors introduced that you dont have to worry about normaly. I think my video shows 4 groups and I did this with no sweat and no breeze...its just so difficult herding 5 groups without alot of running and in doing this you 'run the gauntlet' being hit all the time buy the griffons and can fall foul to rockshot traps. You also have to possition yourself where the minatours will run into you so you can kill even more (Ive had 7 groups at a single spot) although I had killed some of the first griffons before the minatours ran in and also had rockshot choping on me too and I wouldnt have survived without breeze. As you can see Im a little pre-occupied witht forming the perfect farming strategy. On the other hand breeze still sits most of the time un-used in my skillbar as you cant create this situation unless the spawns are in your favour but do I really need to be able to take all these on at one time anyway?.....dunno but make things a little more interesting dont you think As I say over the next few days Ill post a vid and you can see my problem when farming in high numbers when trying to herd them together.
Me NoFat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battle Torn
and re-cast after your glads defence. You usualy finish farming with near-to-full energy anayway so its not really a problem to be honest, but pref as you say. |
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