(first of all, life stealing, sacrifice, and degen are not damages)
Theory 1: Depends on damage type
This is the current theory GuildWiki uses
Holy, Shadow, and unspecified type (mostly Mesmer skills) damage ignores armor. Physical, Elemental, Light, Dark, and Chaos damage do not ignore armor.
Exception:
1. Judge's Insight converts damage to Holy, but does not ignore armor.
2. Dust Trap deals earth damage, but ignores armor
3. Whirling Defense, deals piercing damage, but ignores armor
Theory 2: Depends on the skill
This is what SonOfRah wrote in his damage article hosted on GWOnline. However he did not furthur explain how to differenciate whether the skill ignores armor or not. This results in the exasperating implication that, if you are looking at a list of new Chapter 38 skills, deciding which one you want to unlock, you cannot tell if the skill deals damage-ignoring damage or not (unless like Obsidian Flame and Crystal Wave they explicitly state it).
Theory 2.5: If skill descrption says "deal" or "struck for" x damage, it doesn't ignore armor. If skill description says "take" x damage, it ignores armor. (non-skill damage never ignore armor)
Exceptions:
?
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I have also heard of the existence of other theories, but have not had the pleasure of learning the details. Theory 1 is almost perfect, with that one excepting glaring at me in the face. Thus I would like to learn of other theories, or report Judge's Insight as a bug (either in functionality or textual description).
So, how do you determine if a particular damage ignores armor?
[Question] Armor Ignoringness of damages
Pan Sola
Pharalon
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| So, how do you determine if a particular damage ignores armor? |
Savio
+damage from attacks like Eviscerate also ignore armor, although the main weapon damage doesn't.
Rajamic
I'd just like to point out that in your theory 1, you have dark listed as both ignoring and non-ignoring.
Pan Sola
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Originally Posted by Rajamic
I'd just like to point out that in your theory 1, you have dark listed as both ignoring and non-ignoring.
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Pan Sola
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Originally Posted by Pharalon
As a general rule, read the description. No damage type inherently ignores armor. Armor ignoring is always a flag set on a skill. Skills that ignore armor will *generally* say "target takes X damage", as opposed to "target is struck for X damage". See Mesmer skills, Smiting skills, Dust Trap and most other armor ignoring skills. There's a few exceptions, but they're generally legacy descriptions that never got cleaned up when they moved to more standardized mechanic descriptions.
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Dave83
Mesmer spell damage I think is just classed as chaos damage. To my understanding it does ignore armor.
Align
No damage type, such as holy or fire, ignore armor. It always depends on the skill.
Pan Sola
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Originally Posted by TheAmaizingDave
Mesmer spell damage I think is just classed as chaos damage. To my understanding it does ignore armor.
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On the other hand, mesmer weapons, which never ignores armor, always deal Chaos damage.
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Originally Posted by Align
No damage type, such as holy or fire, ignore armor. It always depends on the skill.
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icemonkey
chaos storm does chaos damage and i believe it is ignoring on that skill.
also to comp,icate things there are certain skills that reduce armor ignoring damage and certain skills that dont. Life barrier for example can reduce a lot of armor ignoring damage but not life stealing (i think i dont know)
also aura of the lich trumps all it reduces everything, and source of damage
also to comp,icate things there are certain skills that reduce armor ignoring damage and certain skills that dont. Life barrier for example can reduce a lot of armor ignoring damage but not life stealing (i think i dont know)
also aura of the lich trumps all it reduces everything, and source of damage
Haggard
the chaos stormness is either a misprint by the programmers, or a misreading by you. either way it DOES NOT deal chaos damage and ignores armour
Pan Sola
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Originally Posted by icemonkey
chaos storm does chaos damage and i believe it is ignoring on that skill.
also to comp,icate things there are certain skills that reduce armor ignoring damage and certain skills that dont. Life barrier for example can reduce a lot of armor ignoring damage but not life stealing (i think i dont know) also aura of the lich trumps all it reduces everything, and source of damage |
Technically Life Stealing isn't damage, so it is natural form Life Stealing to ignore protection skills. Protection skills introduce no complications with respect to armor-ignoring damage. Those that add armor gets ignored. Those that reduce damage don't get ignored (since they are not armor-related).
Aura of the Lich does NOT reduce health loss due to life stealing. However it does reduce health loss due to sacrifice (not simply because max health is decreased), and since sacrifice isn't technically damage, I think that skill has a text bug.
NatalieD
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Originally Posted by Pan Sola
So, if it has more exceptions than Theory 1, is there an official source vouching for the take/struck distinction over the damage type distinction? Or is this just a more generally accepted theory?
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Pan Sola
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Originally Posted by NatalieD
My guess is that that theory dates back to when many mesmer skills described themselves as dealing chaos damage.
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Something along the lines of "It was decided that chaos damage should not ignore armor, but mesmer skills should ignore armor, so mesmer skills where changed from dealing chaos damage to dealing untyped damage."
Wrath Of Dragons
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Originally Posted by icemonkey
also aura of the lich trumps all it reduces everything, and source of damage |
Former Ruling
I've learned basically..it depends on the skill.
Stabber
I think we can be less pedestrian than "depends on skill". Perhaps we can say that HP Loss falls into the following types:
- Degeneration
- Damage
- Resistable Damage (elemental, dark, light, chaos)
- Unresistable Damage (shadow, holy, untyped)
- HP Stealing
- HP Sacrifice
- HP Reduction
Bmont3779
mesmer dmg (chaos or not) is like life stealing, were it ignore armor, and it is not really like the other magics. its more on the line of life stealing were its not a dmg since it always does the same amount of dmg reguardless. Plus mesmer dmg is either degn or instant. The staffs and wands dont follow this decription they are dmg (chaos) and dont ignore armor 
Pan Sola
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Originally Posted by Stabber
I think we can be less pedestrian than "depends on skill". Perhaps we can say that HP Loss falls into the following types:
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And you are obviously going with Theory 1 (which isn't correct 100% of the time), and I'm asking for details on the other theories.
Pan Sola
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Originally Posted by Bmont3779
mesmer dmg (chaos or not) is like life stealing, were it ignore armor, and it is not really like the other magics. its more on the line of life stealing were its not a dmg since it always does the same amount of dmg reguardless. Plus mesmer dmg is either degn or instant. The staffs and wands dont follow this decription they are dmg (chaos) and dont ignore armor
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2. Mesmer damage (from Backfire, Empathy, IW etc) is DIFFERENT from life stealing, becuase protective spirit/bond and other damage-triggered spells will react to mesmer damage. They act like regular armor-ignoring damage.
Bmont3779
Backfire does is not effected my spirit bond (dont know about essance), i just had used it an hour ago. 
Bmont3779
ok sorry about the spelling.......................spirit bond does not effect backfire.
Stabber
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Originally Posted by Pan Sola
And you are obviously going with Theory 1 (which isn't correct 100% of the time), and I'm asking for details on the other theories.
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Pan Sola
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Originally Posted by Stabber
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the only skill in the game that is inconsistent with this theory is Judge's Insight. I personally think the skill description is wrong. Judge's Insight changes the damage type to Light, not Holy.
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Pan Sola
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Originally Posted by Bmont3779
Backfire does is not effected my spirit bond (dont know about essance), i just had used it an hour ago.
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I just tested now both Protective Spirit and Protective Bond against Backfire, using the doppleganger. Protective Spirit/Bond both work in reducing damage from Backfire (tested them separately), as I have claimed. If you were playing with some other skill whose name resembles "sprit bond", please let me know the actual name/description of that skill. There is no real skill (for chapter 1 at least) called "Spirit Bond".
Savio
About JI and Holy/Light damage: Light weapons do the extra damage versus Necrotic armor. Light/Holy and Dark/Shadow are the same types as far as the game's concerned, and it's one of the things that bugs me about how most people describe the damage types.
Pan Sola
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Originally Posted by Pan Sola
You are correct in that Judge's Insight is the only exception to Theory 1. However, just because it is the sole exception, doesn't PROVE the description to be wrong (it might just be coincedental that all other holy damage skills are armor-ignorning), and this is why I am trying to learn about the other theories out there.
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Dust Trap, which deals earth damage, ignores armor. You can test it by placing the trap betweel the 100 Armor and the 60 Armor on Isle of the Nameless and read the damage.
The other three traps don't display their damage to the caster when going off, so I'll need to use Doppleganger to test it (Pacifism to prevent his regular attacks, then trigger his traps while wearing diff armor).
sh4ft3d
"Holy" damage from ji is treated s light damage. It does not trigger the +10/20 vs physical on most war armor.
Mercury Angel
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Originally Posted by sh4ft3d
"Holy" damage from ji is treated s light damage. It does not trigger the +10/20 vs physical on most war armor.
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It's like talking about an elemental attack, and saying that because a fire spell doesn't activate on +Al vs physical, it must be Cold damage. It just doesn't work like that...
Bmont3779
i didnt put "spirt bond" i worte spirt bond as spirt/bond. i shorted the skills, and im still not seeing the dmg change (always getting same amount). looks like i need to work this out some more then
apoggy
You say Judge's is flawed in that it doesn't deal armour ignoring damage according to your theory 1. The way I see it is that it all depends when it converts the damage to Holy Damage, before or after the game mechanics calculate the damage to be received. The convert to holy could be after the damage calculation, and therefore the fact that it is armour ignoring not taken in the calculation. Just a thought.
NatalieD
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Originally Posted by Savio
About JI and Holy/Light damage: Light weapons do the extra damage versus Necrotic armor. Light/Holy and Dark/Shadow are the same types as far as the game's concerned, and it's one of the things that bugs me about how most people describe the damage types.
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I'm still wondering, though - what is there in the game to support what you say? It seems to me that "holy ignores armor, light doesn't, JI's description uses the wrong word" is just as reasonable a conclusion as "holy and light are the same, holy/light skills that aren't attacks ignore armor but don't say they do" - but you insist on the latter, and I'm not clear on why.
Savio
To test Light/Holy damage: go run around with Tormentor's armor near Grendich Courthouse and get hit by a Charr Martyr. You'll get nailed for 20+ damage with a full set of Tormentor's. Judge's Insight isn't wrong or bugged. Presumably, Dark and Shadow, as well as Chaos and "typeless", are the exact same, but without a way to test them I couldn't say with absolute certainty. I wish they would change the type descriptions so that there are only 3 "typeless" damages, but that's irrelevant.
It's not the damage type, it's the specific attack or skill that the game takes into account for armor. Theory 1 is wrong but unfortunately is also how most people view the damage types/armor system. Regardless of your weapon's type, it doesn't ignore armor at all; only select skills have armor-ignoring damage, as Pharalon said.
It's not the damage type, it's the specific attack or skill that the game takes into account for armor. Theory 1 is wrong but unfortunately is also how most people view the damage types/armor system. Regardless of your weapon's type, it doesn't ignore armor at all; only select skills have armor-ignoring damage, as Pharalon said.
NatalieD
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Originally Posted by Savio
To test Light/Holy damage: go run around with Tormentor's armor near Grendich Courthouse and get hit by a Charr Martyr. You'll get nailed for 20+ damage with a full set of Tormentor's.
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Pan Sola
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Originally Posted by Bmont3779
i didnt put "spirt bond" i worte spirt bond as spirt/bond. i shorted the skills, and im still not seeing the dmg change (always getting same amount). looks like i need to work this out some more then
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Anyways, when testing, make sure you are not testing by:
1. Hexed by Backfire.
2. Cast Protective Spirit (or Protective Bond).
3. look at the damage you take from Backfire when performing step 2.
That's the only way I can see how someone could mess up the test and think Protective Spirit (or Protective Bond) does not reduce damage from Backfire...
Pharalon
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Originally Posted by Pan Sola
So, if it has more exceptions than Theory 1, is there an official source vouching for the take/struck distinction over the damage type distinction? Or is this just a more generally accepted theory?
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The problem with theory 1 is that there are no supporting cases ( I can't think of a single non-skill based armor ignoring damage source ), and several counter examples (JI, Dust Trap, Whirling Defense etc). That leaves you with the somewhat distasteful situation of Theory 2 being the most correct one, and having to look forward to adding a bunch of new exceptions and several hours skill testing come the release of each chapter.
Pan Sola
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Originally Posted by Pharalon
I think it's more people trying to pull some sense of order out of the skill descriptinos where very little exists, the way we used to with AoE descriptions. If you judged the AoE of a skill from the description, you had a 75% chance of being right. Obviously that makes it next to useless if you really care, but if you just want a general guideline with some exceptions to remember, it's good enough.
The problem with theory 1 is that there are no supporting cases ( I can't think of a single non-skill based armor ignoring damage source ), and several counter examples (JI, Dust Trap, Whirling Defense etc). That leaves you with the somewhat distasteful situation of Theory 2 being the most correct one, and having to look forward to adding a bunch of new exceptions and several hours skill testing come the release of each chapter. |
http://manual.guildwars.com/other/glossary.html (look up Holy damage). Granted, the official website stuff aren't always correct, and technically manual.guildwars.com is no longer linked to from the new official site, but it's *some* form of supporting evidence.
The lack of non-skill based armor ignoring damage source unfortunately coincide with explicitly non-overlapping damage type between weapon and skill damages for Mesmer, Monk, and Necromancers. One can say there are no weapon attacks that ignore armor; but one can also say there are no armor-ignoring skills that deal "Light", "Chaos", or "Dark" damage (notice the double quote, the argument that they are the same as Holy, Shadow is part of the theory 2 bundle IMHO); Different facet of the same situation turns it from "lack of support" to "support", and with the number of typos in skill descriptions throughout the history of the game, "counter examples" are just anti-support, and do not decisively prove the contary.
Anyways, in terms of only looking at the evidence that have been presented in this thread so far, it seems the best course of action (to me at least) is to keep a tally of which theory leads to less exceptions, and adapt when new chapters come out that change the tally. Or until official word supporting one of the theories comes out publicly (and we report all the exceptions as bugs).
Hmm, so Whirling Defense's damage also ignore armor? I'll need to figure out a way to test it with Mr. Dopple.
Score:
Theory 1: 3+ (Judge's Insight, Dust Trap, Whirling Defense, ... more?)
Theory 2: ?
(edit: I'm editing the first post of this thread to keep the tally on exceptions for each theory)
Pharalon
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Originally Posted by Pan Sola
My support case (not the way you expect the support to be):
http://manual.guildwars.com/other/glossary.html (look up Holy damage). Granted, the official website stuff aren't always correct, and technically manual.guildwars.com is no longer linked to from the new official site, but it's *some* form of supporting evidence. |
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Originally Posted by Pan Sola
Hmm, so Whirling Defense's damage also ignore armor? I'll need to figure out a way to test it with Mr. Dopple.
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Originally Posted by Pan Sola
Anyways, in terms of only looking at the evidence that have been presented in this thread so far, it seems the best course of action (to me at least) is to keep a tally of which theory leads to less exceptions, and adapt when new chapters come out that change the tally. Or until official word supporting one of the theories comes out publicly (and we report all the exceptions as bugs).
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Pan Sola
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Originally Posted by Pharalon
I really don't think you'll find any exceptions to theory 2 (I've looked for them for a while). You'd need a source of armor ignoring non-skill damage, and as far as i know, one doesn't exist.
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I'm still going to tally exceptions to theory 1 vs theory 2.5. Even knowing neither is 100% correct, it's helpful as an advisory tool to depend on the theory with less exceptions.
Pharalon
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Originally Posted by Pan Sola
I'm still going to tally exceptions to theory 1 vs theory 2.5. Even knowing neither is 100% correct, it's helpful as an advisory tool to depend on the theory with less exceptions.
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The only thing I'd personally depend on is what you see when you hit the 100AL test dummy.