The Importance of Items

There are several factors that go into making a successful character in GW. And, by successful, I'm talking about being able to go into any PvE and PvP map with a reasonable chance of coming back out victorious, of course. That means you want your character "maxed" in several aspects. You'll need the levels, the skills, and the equipment to excel. Obviously, you want to be at the highest level, 20. You want to have more than just the starting skills, you want to have acquired good skills along the way. You want a suit of good armor, that lv20 set, so you'll need the wealth to acquire that, too. But you'll need more equipment beyond that armor and that's something that many people seem to overlook. A character does not stop once they've hit level 20 and they've got the right skills. Items are extremely important to a character because they'll give your character a marked advantage.

First, when dealing with armor there's the issue of runes.

To truly be competitive you're going to want a Superior Vigor rune for that extra 53 health. Anyone else is playing already behind in any damage race It's not just somethign nice to have, it's almost a requirement by this point.

There are also attribute runes to gather as well. You have five slots in your armor for runes and you're not likely to have more than four attributes to raise from your primary. There's no reason not to have at least a minor rune for each of those attributes that you've decided to raise. And that's alongside the bonus of your lv20 headgear to an attribute as well. A character with runes is gaining free attribute points making them noticably stronger than a character without.

Consider, if you will, the issue of Major and Superior ruens. A lot of players pass up these runes because of the costs involved. However, for what you gain, they're really pretty good. They're best on characters that aren't expecting to take a lot of damage - meaning that Monks, who'll be targeted eventually, and Warriors, who might want to play a tank to absorb damage - the hit to health is a bit much. But other characters are out of the line of fire, for the most part, except when their team's are losing. Getting that extra push to DPS or duration or another effect becomes more tolerable ifyou're a Ranger or an Elementalist or a Mesmer or a Necromancer. But it becomes even more desirable when you ponder the effects of those +2 and +3 runes, not on the attribute they're pushing upwards but on a character's other attributes. Take a Ranger who's running a lot of bow attacks. They'll want their Marksmanship and Expertise as high as possible. 12/12 for preference. Leaving them 6 measly AP to raise another attribute to the maximum of 3. With minor runes and a mask that can be a 14/13/3 build. 15 or 16 with the other runes.

However, rather than pushing their attributes to that height, they can use them to approach their target attribute rank. 12 is a perfectly fine maximum which will let them be effective against other characters, pushing it past that starts to suffer from diminishing returns. However, a character could start with a build of 11/10/10 and then use their bonus AP from armor to push that to 12(11+1)/12(11+1)/10. That's 7 bonus ranks over the caharacter who's spent their AP n being 12/12/3. That's a 56 AP swing that the second character is using to fuel another attribute past a measly 3 and into a very respectable 10. That Ranger can now not just splash another attribute but seriously consider that attribute. A Ranger/Elementalist can take Fire to add a powerful Conjure Fire. A Ranger/Monk can take Healing to act as a back up healer. A Ranger/Mesmer can take Dominion to use Power Spike and Block alongside Savage Shot and Debilitating Shot. Those runes have bouth the character a lot more options and diversity in their skill selection and in the roles they can adopt in a party. Minor and Superior runes can work the same way, a character can take an attribute from 9 or even 8 to the maximum with runes and headgear, for example, freeing up even more AP to use elsewhere. Even if a character is a Mesmer or a Necromancer and might not prefer to have maxed out attributes, runes help by letting them hit sweet spots in their progression while giving them more AP to spend elsewhere.

Characters that have spent the time or money to acquire runes are more diverse and flexible than characters that haven't. And with that flexiblity is an advantage in and of itself.

Then, there's the issue of items.

A sword War is gong to want the best sword to swing. They're not going to get very far if they're still using that sword they found as they were heading through the Shiverpeaks by the time they're ready for the Tombs. They want to squeeze every bit of damage out of it that they can. And they're going to want the most favorable modifiers on that sword as well. A Warrior/Elementalist, for example, is going to want the modifiers that add to their enchantment length so their Conjure last as bit longer or increase their attack speed so they get more benefit out of it and maybe even a shield that gives a +1 to Fire Magic when they cast Conjure Fire, too. There are plenty of modifiers around, though, and those modifiers can be extremely useful even to characters who don't plan to use a weapon very often. Foci and wands have modifiers, too, and casters will greatly benefit from finding the right ones for their build.

The trick, though, is finding those modifiers which are spawned randomly on weapons as they drop. For that Warrior/Elementalist, finding the +duration mod might be a snap. Finding the +speed mod pretty easy, too. But finding them both on the same weapon? That can be a bit of a hassle. It's going to take the time to kill enough critters to get that best weapon or a lot of gold to go out and buy it from someone else. But those modifiers, like a +1/-1 energy gaining axe, can be a marked advantage and one that those looking for every edge they can find will need to have to at least stay competitive with those who do.

Two characters, one with an unadorned set of lv20 armor and a mediocre weapon and another studded with runes and a maxed damage weapon with the best mods otherwise having the same build, which one has the advantage? It's the character that's tweaked up, of course, and it's more than just a slight advantage. It's an advantage that gives them a much better chance of wining. So, those characters looking to compete with the best are going to have to have that gear, aren't they?

And that's to say nothing of acquiring multiple weapons to swap between, multiple armors to swap runes, mixing and matching armor sets for the best benefit, and all the other tricks and advantages that can be teased out of your inventory.

In my experience, starting with a level 20 character, you can get up to a decent spec in two or three days of reasonably serious play. However, there are some really good items out there, which would probably take quite a long time of farming to acquire. I get the feeling the range of item power should be narrowed a little bit. The thing is that due to the way items are created from several random factors, if you get really lucky you can get something really nice - it's just that you have to roll the dice many many times to get the perfect combination.

Another factor is how knowledgeable you are about farming. It's not too hard to learn how to farm Zealots for weapons and armor drops I guess, but if you never happen to twig to that, you will be at a disadvantage. When it comes to farming for runes and materials, there are ways to really rip through the Charr if you spend long enough figuring it out. I think that sort of knowledge is going to remain more rare. (And no I won't post all my tricks here because I think it probably needs nerfing - it's just a matter of when the devs will take action on it.)

I think that a lot of people don't pay nearly enough attention to items. Sure, the company line is that you win or lose based upon skill selections and your own skill with the game, but that doesn't match up with what's in game right now. Items matter. If you're a Warrior or Ranger, your ability to deal damage is intimately tied to your weapon, and if you don't have a good one you just aren't going to be effective. We're not just talking max damage weapons here - getting a weapon with the maximum possible base damage is just a starting point, if you can't get one of those don't even bother trying to play with the big boys.

There are rare weapon modifiers that give you +28% damage. There's a weapon modifier that gives you +1 energy per hit with a negligible drawback. There are Shield and Focus modifiers that can give you +1 to a skill of your choice, great defensive bonuses, or even quick recovery from dazed. There are weapon upgrades, that for now pretty much have to spawn in place, that increase your attack speed or lengthen your enchantments or increase your armor level across the board.

Good items don't just make characters more powerful, they open up even more options that characters without the best items can't even consider. Runes and +attribute or +skill items either make a focused character even stronger, or allow him to spread his attribute points out more, allowing them to mix and match from a wider assortment of skills. They can affect skill valuations by piling up energy, energy regen, and other raw resources, skewing the balance between different skill types - energy costs stop being prohibitive when you have better energy regeneration. Modifiers like quick recovery from Dazed can allow you to ignore skills that would otherwise cripple you. There's a dance between attributes, skills, and items, and any change to one affects how you view the others.

If you think you're competitive without access to these items, you're living in a dream world. You need the right sword for your build just as badly as you need the right skills to use with it, and the attributes to pump up those skills.

Which brings us to everyone's favorite set of topics - pharming, bots, and cash markets.

The best items in the game are rares - that should be obvious, since rares spawn with multiple base weapon modifiers, including a set that are only available on rares. To acquire these rares, you need to play the PvE missions that grant them. A lot. You can easily play the 'right' area for finding your rare a thousand times without it dropping. Clearly, your patience is going to run out long before you find the items you need.

Which is the entire basis of the botting and cash economy.

Guild Wars is particularly succeptable to botting and cash markets because it's a PvP game. If all you were doing was playing PvE, top weapons would be a nice bonus, but not neccessary since the challenges you're facing are static. But in PvP, playing a sub-optimal character is just not an option if you're hoping to succeed. You need to be on equal footing, which means having equal access to equipment...which means doing what it takes to acquire said top items.

Item power is an issue, but item availability is a *huge* issue. The goal of the game, as stated, is to create an environment where success or failure is a function of player skill. Unfortunately, as things currently stand, the Guild Wars item system flies in the face of that. While skills can be acquired in several different ways, and attributes and levels come quickly, items are a horrendous grind. Either you choose to grind, you choose to run a bot, you choose to buy items, or you choose to lose. The game does not have to be this way, and I hope that this particular issue is addressed before release.

Peace,
-CxE

Personally, I don't see the availability of runes as a pressing issue. They will tip the balance in high lvl PvP, however, being discrete units, they're something that are easy for the devs to control the flow of into the economy. I expect 2-3 weeks into retail to have no problems picking up a superior vigor rune at a high, but reasonable price. Of course, a rune trader would be a godsend .

What concerns me more is high lvl ranes with multiple mods. The time required to farm for the mods you want on a weapon go up exponentially with the number of mods you want on it. You're also less likely to be able to trade for a weapon with the mods you're after, as people are more likely to salavage a weapon when it doesn't have the mods they want, so there will be a smaller flow of these items into the market. I'd like to see all weapon mods available via upgrades components, with the components salavaged from items that spawn with those mods.

This way, to get the weapon you're after, you'll only need to find a good damage base item, then trade or salavage the mod components you want for it. It'll save players a lot of frustration.

As far as fixing the problem, Pharalon basically summed it up perfectly.

Runes are important and expensive, but they're going to be available. Sure you're going to have problems finding a vigor rune during a 3 day BWE, but a few weeks into retail people will start finding extras and be willing to unload them, for the right offer. As a single unit, individual runes are fairly common commodities that you should see in town regularly.

The same can be said of upgrade components - they pop up in salvage fairly frequently, and while you might have to pay a bit for a +20% enchantment duration upgrade you can certainly find them.

The problem is with modifiers that have to spawn with the item. Finding a top, 15-22 damage sword takes a bit of time, but it's not too hard. Finding a 15-22 damage sword with the modifier you want? A whole lot harder. Finding a 15-22 sword with the two mods that compliment your character? Damn near impossible.

Assuming that there were 20 mods, you'd have to go through the following number of rare swords to get the one you want:

Zero mods - 1 sword
One mod - 20 swords
Two mods - 190 swords
Three mods - 1,140 swords

Oh, and of course, there are a whole lot more than 20 mods in the game. As it stands, you're looking at spending hundreds of hours trying to find the weapon you want - and assuming that there are other like-minded people out there, the secondary market value of such a weapon would be phenomenal.

Arena.net got it right the first time - upgrades are the way to go. They get away from the whole power law problem, allowing people to assemble the weapon that they want through trade, instead of having to find the whole package in one shot. It allows you to keep the diversity of weapons in the game, which is desirable, without introducing serious access problems. Rare item modifiers just lead to scarcity, pharming, botting, and ultimately imbalance between the haves and have nots. Item upgrades allow each player to assemble their weapon from parts quickly and efficiently. The choice is clear.

Peace,
-CxE

I've never had troubles finding cool stuff during the events. I imagine in retail it'll be a lot easier. By the time you hit 20 you'll probably have all the items you need to compete, seeing as how from 15-20 I almost have all the items I need. When farming for mods/rares you can usually find 10+ in an hour, 1 or 2 really nice ones you can give to guild mates and what not.

I think this isn't too far away from what Anet was going for in the first place. Most items with lots of mods will spawn with a disadvantage (do they all work that way?) so in most cases you can find an item that is "right" for your build ,but it is not strictly overpowered. To find the "perfect" item might take nearly forever, but is that really so bad? After all, whats the difference between a great and a perfect item in GW? Not much.

Am I the only person who uses only Minors? Somehow the argument of.. "if you use a major, it balances with a superior vigor" doesn't work with me... it may balance out, but I would have more health, and your +1 or 2 more to your attribute (whether it be +10 (or a little more) damage to your skill, or that extra pip of degen (Life Siphon for example), it, more often than not, would just be better to use a Minor.

As for swords, and how good your items are. The prefixes/suffixes/modifiers are quite subtle at the moment, so it's not like they will have a devastating effect and you'll stomp someone in PvP just because your sword has +% IAS at the hit of Damage %

Say you find a sword that reduces your attack speed by 10% (might go higher, not sure) and gives you +1 energy each hit. How is that subtle? Couple that with something like frenzy and you attack once every .75 seconds and get one energy everytime that happens. That opens whole new doors for warriors to use energy intensive attacks.

But does this item exist?

Perhaps, perhaps not. But something like it does. Consider, if you will, evern the by now infamous +1 energy on a hit, -1 energy regeneration sword. That sounds like a nasty penalty, doesn't it? For a war, you're halving the energy you'll get in order to get that energy bonus. Pass?

No way in hell. You grab that +1/-1 sword and run with it. Look at these weapon speeds : Swords - 1.33 seconds, Axes - 1.33 seconds, Hammers - 1.75 seconds. And then consider that a pip of energy is 1 point of energy every 3 seconds. That means that if you can put your character in a situation where they can swing away with that +1/-1 sword they'll be getting one point of energy every 1.33 seconds. In the 3 seconds it would take that lost pip to work, you'd get about 2.25 energy (Hammers are worse, but still better). It the 9 seconds you'd get 3 energy with a pip, you'd get 6.8 energy. In 30 seconds instead of 10 energy you'll have 22.5. The upshot is rather than halving your energy you've more than doubled it. Even when you consider that the actual energy you'd gain is *only* 1.25 (2.25 minus the pip's 1) every 3 seconds, you're coming out ahead. Slap on Flurry with that en sword and, well, you get the picture...

All that -1 pip penalty is doing is to limit how sickly effective your weapon is. It's nt an actual penalty at all because it doesn't make you any worse than you'd be without it. Are there weapons like that in the game right now? I can't say. But if there are such weapons is it not a huge advantage to the character holding them?

I mean I didn't know about this before hand but when I heard that there were focuses available with Quick Recovery vs. Dazed, I was nearly dazed. That's just insane, no matter how effective it is. Dazed is one of the biggest things you fear as a caster. It will shut you down completely if you get hit by it. If that Quick Recovery makes Dazed fall away 50% faster, 25% faster, even 10% faster, it's still worth whatever it takes to get (In all likelihood it's a lot faster, based on the publically known knowledge of what things such as Quick Recovery from Burning or Quick Skill Recharge are like). That's not just something nice for a caster to have, it's all but essential. A caster playing with a focus with that mod is a lot less vulnerable to the many anti-caster Rangers out there. That's an advantage a caster shouldn't give up if they're considering playing at the highest level.

I agree with you 100% , it is the very thing i do....

The following sword exists:

15-22 damage
+26% damage per hit
+1 energy per hit
-7 armor when attacking
-10% criticals

You can customize it, too, making it effectively a +46% damage weapon. Plus upgrades, such as +attack speed, +20% enchantment duration, or just a simple +30 health.

A top rare sword does 20% more damage than a normal 'perfect' sword, plus it doubles your energy regeneration. As Saus mentioned, there are foci with mods like quick recovery from dazed that are rare enough that even testers aren't aware of their existence. Bonuses like these aren't just minor perks, they win games on their own. If you want to play at the highest level, you need them, and with the current item system that just isn't going to happen.

Peace,
-CxE

Would that be SOO much better than just a normal sword.. ? Thats' why it's subtle..

It looks nice at first, but don't swords routinely drop with 25~26 max dmg, and a bit higher min dmg? I've seen a lot of 17-25, 18-25, 19-26 in the past, and I wasn't even trying to hunt for items (just doing missions).

15-22 + 46% = 22-32
19-26 + 20% = 23-31

Is -7 armour and -10% crits worth +1 energy? Well depends on your opinion, but I think it's balanced either way.

Nope, 15-22 is the highest base damage you'll find on a sword now.


Which, in its own way, tells all of us just how highly we should value your opinion.

Peace,
-CxE

That sword is the nastiest I've seen - but I heard damage mods have been capped now at 15% (not sure if that is true though), and I have never seen a +energy on hit sword that didn't have the -energy regen drawback. Things do get tweaked.

I still don't see the problem, it's not like items like that are rare/hard to get. EVery hour I played I was getting nice stuff like that, it's all trivial in PvP, as it's not enough to make or break you. PvP isn't supposed to be 100% balanced all the time, it's not fun like that, the little percentage difference items make, makes things interesting.

If my guild in 48 hours can be polluted with runes, items, manu parts, and gold, to the point where we're giving it away or just dumping it on the ground to make room for more nice items, there's not a whole lot to worry about. I think at one point me and a friend together had about 50 upgrade components for weapons. That sword you posted, isn't rare, just occasional. Black dye is rare, for every black dye I've found, I've been dropped about 5,000 swords/bows/hammers like that.

Hopefully they have changed those two mods. Obviously you can't comment, but they were in the game as of the last BWE - I've had both of them in hand myself.

Even the -energy regen drawback isn't enough for the +1 energy per hit weapon, though. Those things kick out so much energy, I don't see how you can even call yourself competitive if you don't have one.


Yeah, it's only like one spawns every ten thousand game hours or so. They're so common that alpha testers are running bots trying to get decent items in reasonable timeframes. Not a problem. At all.


Yes, actually, it is. You don't get two real mods on non-rare weapons.


You know, spreading misinformation like that just makes discussions like this difficult. If you really have found 5000 max damage, rare weapons with two good rare modifiers on them and no junky upgrades gunking them up for every black dye you have found, I retract that statement, but in all likelihood you're just making stuff up and doing everyone a disservice.

Peace,
-CxE

Max damage, max stat...? So? It makes little difference in the outcome of a 8 on 8. In all the hours I've put into GW, not once has the so called issue of "items" ever entered my head. I dunno, maybe it's from those times I went to tombs at level 15 with default everything and still compete and won on teams with other level 15's, or the fact that every PvP match I've ever lost was directly related to a mistake I saw happening as it unfold, and not because my teammates didn't have good items. I don't see the minor difference of an item as a big deal, but if you're looking for a scapegoat for your PvP losses then by all means, use weapon stats.

So your argument is that people are terrible at Guild Wars, and thus competitive imbalance isn't an issue?

How about this one then - I sat in the Hall of Heroes for over three hours playing man down. Obviously fielding a full team of eight people isn't that important.


You don't see 25% differences in damage output, coupled with doubled energy regenration as being a big deal? You don't understand how that could possibly make a difference in a match between teams of equal skill?


Ah, yes, when in doubt break out the Ad Hominem. Obviously we're talking about a potentially serious balance issue because I'm looking for something to blame losses in PvP on. My mistake, kunt0r is obviously right, items in Guild Wars don't matter in the slightest.

*rollseyes*

Unless they've completely changed the entire item system in the last month, I have no idea what you're talking about.

http://www.gwforum.ca/img/x800/0165.jpg

That's the best hammer I got during Oct I believe, before they doubled weapon damage. Wars in my guild had better hammers then me. You act like these god items never drop. Ohhhh someone has to farm to get something that max stated, or, you can hunt for half a day and get an item thats 1 point off being a max uber ultra turbo stated item. Sure Ensign, maybe them turbo weapons you speak of are 1 in a million, but items that are 1 notch below are more like 1 in 10. That one notch isn't going to make or break you, it'll slightly help you, but if you're whining because you want a 100% fair game...then games and competetion aren't for you.

Hell, maybe that sword doesn't even exist, or maybe it was an accident yet to be removed. If there is an item imbalance, you'd bet Anet would hear about it mighty fast.

My opinion is that that sword is definitely imbalanced, mainly due to the energy gain. There are a lot of things you can do with that much energy coming in. The high damage bonus just makes things that much worse. However, I believe that such a weapon would not be possible at the moment, in my recent experience at least.

Hate to say it kunt0r but that hammer of yours is sucky - not sure why you posted it. -2 health regen is asking to die. Work out the extra damage you get from 16% damage and 14% chance of +1 Hammer Mastery and compare it to 24% constant damage boost. Even with 10% fewer criticals the sword is much better. (If general critical chance is 20%, that sword would lower it to 18% I think - I know my sword with -33% critical from two disadvantages still does a decent number of crits)

For reference, the max natural hammer damage from the time when that screenshot was taken was roughly 12-20.

They do drop, but very, very rarely. That's why there are bots out pharming them, because players don't see one drop within hours, or even days of playing. From what you're saying, you've never even seen a top notch item. That's the entire problem.


Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't. Again, the problem isn't just item imbalance, it's item *scarcity*. Alpha testers don't have access to these items. Some of the best items in the game at this very instant have likely never even been played with, because they simply don't drop often enough for people to have them to test.

Are little differences in items going to be a big deal? No. The difference between a 15-22 sword, and a 14-22 sword is negligible - it's a disadvantage but not a meaningful one. On the other hand, not having access to +energy per hit mods is backbreaking. There's a mantra of 'player skill matters, not items' that doesn't stand up to even the slightest bit of scrutiny. The fact is that items do, indeed matter. How much do they matter? We really don't know, because it isn't being tested significantly, and because comments about equipment dependence get dismissed out of hand.

Ultimately, the goal is to create a game where there isn't a significant item grind, where rare item mods are nothing more than incidental bonuses that don't swing matches. But in order for that to be a reality, we need to recognize what we currently have, and what has to change in order for the ideal to be a reality.

Peace,
-CxE

I'm going to have to support Ensign here.

As much as I like the idea of rare, hard to get, weapons from a PvM standpoint (though I would prefer they get awarded from acomplishment, like finishing a mission in under a set time, than semi-random drops), weapons like the one he stated will definatly create imbalance if they are that hard to get.

That said, it wont matter for most people, as most people, no matter how good their items are, will get destroyed by a good team. It is when two equaly skilled teams face off against each other that these items will come in to play.

The proposed solution, to make weapons upgradeable only through salvaging one modifer weapons, and to remove the rarer 2 and 3 modifier weapons from the game, seems a reasonable one.

Well, there clearly is a balance. On one hand, you want things to be as balanced and accessable as possible for PvP, so that player skill can determine winners instead of letting superior gear cover up mistakes. Nothing is worse than losing an otherwise even match because one side had items that make them faster and more efficient. You don't learn anything, you can even use identical tactics, but end up getting rolled because of the discrepencies.

But on the other side, you don't want everything to be *too* accessable. People do love collecting and showing off their equipment, and a thriving economy is definitely a good thing. You don't get trade when you can just go out and find everything you need in ten minutes, after all.

There is a balance here, and while the balance lies much closer to abundance than in other MMOs you still need to have scarcity to keep the equipment fiends interested.

What this means is that the best, the most game breaking upgrades, anything that a player would want to build around, should be a weapon upgrade. As has been mentioned, weapon upgrades are a great solution for providing access to good items because they're so tradable - you can get all the pieces individually, and put them all together to make a fine, PvP ready weapon.

What should be rare are minor, cosmetic modifiers, and more importantly, vanity.

Of the people you see posting on boards looking for items, how many are looking for a good sword, and how many are looking for a good *Dragon Sword*?

Dragon Swords aren't any better than any other sword type - statistically, they're identical. But they're insanely popular, rare weapon drops that a large segment of the population wants. Their presence doesn't affect PvP players in the slightest, but it gives those item fiends something to strive for.

Minor modifiers on weapons are generally ok. The problem arises when those mods end up being something that you can build around, even if it is innocuous.

The best example of this I know of is a Warrior/Necromancer build that leans heavily upon a particular item for its effectiveness. The build in question is based upon keeping several Life Siphons going simultaneously, powered by Warrior's Endurance. Now, to get that third pip out of Life Siphon you need a level 12 Blood Magic, which puts you into an ugly 12 Blood / 10 Weapon / 8 Strength setup - turning into 12/12/9 with minor runes. For a character that wants to really max out Warrior's Endurance, 9 Strength is pretty suboptimal.

However, add a Strength based, +1 Life Siphon shield, and suddenly this character can shift into a 11 Blood / 10 Weapon / 10 Strength setup - 12 Life Siphon/12 Weapon/11 Strength overall. The rather innocuous +1 to Blood when using Life Siphon modifier is effectively +2 to Strength on this build. I don't think I have to explain why +2 to an attribute at no cost is absurdly good.

The problem, of course, is finding that shield, which is admittedly going to be a colossal task. But the build almost depends upon it for functionality.

It's builds like this, that feed so heavily upon very specific pieces of equipment, that concern me. What if this build ends up being the next big thing? You can get the armor and skills for this guy a thousand times before you find the key shield that makes the whole character hum. Is that a good thing for a game that isn't supposed to reward time spent playing?

I don't know how you address all of these concerns, and I'm interested to see how it ends up being done.

Peace,
-CxE

Kunt0r, that hammer is rare, but it's not the kind of rare that's being discussed right now.

This thread is trying to raise issues that are relevant because they have been brought to ANet's attention and still haven't been addressed adequately.

The concern is with an item that's so rare that the game only procudes less than one per day. That's not one per person per day. We don't even really know how often it comes up, but we do know they exist. They exist, and they unbalance the game, because if my entire team has twice the energy your team has, that's no longer a small advantage, and a sword that gives +1 energy on hit does that. If my entire team is doing +46% of the listed damage with a sword and no one on your team has that +46% damage, it's a huge advantage.

We need to be stomping our feet and making a fuss- we're the ones who need to tell ANet about the imbalance, because they (should) already know about it, yet the problem still exists. To use a simple analogy, it's like driving the wrong way down a one way street- sure you might not see the cars now, but you're definitely going to get into a head on collision unless you change what you're doing. (i.e. Maybe you're not fighting teams with the uber-equipment yet, but they're coming around the corner.)

I largely disagree that items are badly imbalanced. What I do agree with is that + energy on hit weapons are out of wack. Its essentially giving warriors +2 pips while in combat and -1 pip out of combat (if using frenzy ect.). It doubles their energy regen and gives them as much energy generation as a caster. I don't think anyone would be happy about seeing +2 or even +4 energy regen on caster items, but thats what warriors get with +energy weapons.

But other than that, I do not see the big imbalance with +25% damage. It sounds like a lot, but considering that it would not be too difficult to find a +15 or +20% item, its still a gradual increase. I really like the idea of using + life siphon mods, because it really lets you customize your equipment to your build. Its pretty rare that a build depends on such an item, and in general I think its a very nice mechanism to differentiate builds without giving (in almost all cases) overpowering advantages.

Once again an interesting thread to read. Thanks to all contributors.

Charles, are you sure the problem comes from item rarity ? If item/mod drops are dramatically increased so that all players have access to the best mod combinations, things won't get better. You'll just obtain a dull environment where all warriors wear the same equipment and where minor mods are frowned upon.

I have the impression that the current incarnations of a few mods are simply overpowered : what makes the +1 energy very strong is that it's a strong and reliable energy source. If it was nerfed to xx% chance of gaining 1 energy (xx being high enough to make the mod desirable without being broken) or restricted to slow weapons, I don't think that would be such a problem. The same stands for other powerful mods. Slam a xx% chance on them and you can't rely too much on them.

Statistically speaking that would translate into turning down their efficiency by replacing an integer by a real number (i.e removing the integer step effect): +1 is too much, so what about +0.6 or even +0.5 ? The transition between a sexy mod and a dull one would become blurry and harder to figure out.

I agree there can be a balance issue for a handful of runes. Vigor is the most obvious one. Basically any mod that is useful to *any* character or even to any character in a given profession (storage come to mind) is bad, if only because you'll find it all PvP characters (top player or not). Mods shouldn't be generic and they shouldn't be powerful enough to build a character upon (e.g : Illusion runes to reach the latest step for Distorsion).



I agree that most if not all mods should be available through components and runes (and they shouldn't stack). Finding a good weapon would remain useful but probably not as mandatory as it is now. But keep in mind that you're just shifting the problem onto component balance/scarcity. If all mods are available on components, then everybody will desperately look for generic mods such as +xx% dmg or energy gain.

IMO, the basic statement "skill not equipment" cannot really be achieved if you keep the current mod system. To have a truly balanced environment in PvP, weapons should be either entirely blank with the same stats or craftable like armors.

Otherwise, you'll always have a mod combination better than others. Nerfing the most overpowered mods is a quick fix, but the core of the issue stated by Saus will remain. Top PvP players will always have to hunt for the best equipment, if only to get 5, 2 or even 1% more dmg.



Personally I'm in favor of the current system, since it looks like a good compromise between PvP and PvE. But I think that mods should be revisited and hopefully balanced a little more (if I recall correctly, they have been introduced recently during WPE).

Most importantly generic effects should be removed entirely in favor or narrower effects with % conditions (no more integer steps).

That hammer would be 20-34 dmg + 52% now, as it wasn't even customized.

Double up them stats and thats what it would be now.

~~~~~~~~~~

I'm not saying I want items to matter, I just don't want them to be these perfectly balanced things. Odd differences in them that give slight advantage are what makes hunting hours on end for the 'perfect' weapon fun. But, it still lets people who only hunt to get to level 20 still compete, as they should have all the appropriate equipment when they do reach ascension.

You'll notice how balanced and not "out of whack" +1 energy / hit -1 energy degen swords are. As soon as you get (or your target gets):

Guardian, Shield of Deflection, Whirling Defense, Ward against Melee, etc etc.
Faintheartedness, Shadow of Fear...

Suddenly.. you would have much preferred the non-energy on hit sword.

If that was before weapon damage was doubled (or whatever)... why is it hammer mastery 5.. ? And there's -2 Health Degen, looks balanced to me even if it would have been doing 34 max damage.

Uh, no. Weapon damage wasn't straight doubled then - and they've been knocked down a notch since then. Quite a few notches, actually.

Today that would look something like:

+36% Damage
Health Regen -2
+1 Hammer Mastery (14% Chance when using skills)
Fire Damage: 15-29
Customized

Which certainly isn't *bad* for only having a 5 prereq, but I certainly wouldn't want to PvP with it - hell, even a normal, max damage (19-35) hammer would be better, as it would deal more damage and it wouldn't have the elemental drawback.

If you want the 'current' stats for an item from that BWE, add around 70% to the damage rating. That doesn't address some of the horrendously overpowered mods that you used to be able to find.


I can relate to that, and really, you're never going to have perfectly balanced items. Diversity and balance are enemies and you're constantly having to fight to get them to mesh as a game designer.

The point of this is that the rare weapons that you have to hunt for weeks to find shouldn't do anything so special that they'd be considered mandatory by one build or another. I think a great example of a mod like that is the wand/staff mod '10% chance of fast skill recharge'. Is it a nice bonus to have? Certainly - sometimes you'll have an extra option available that you didn't plan on. But that's the whole idea - you didn't plan on it, because you couldn't. If you make that mod '10% faster skill recharge', then everyone needs it to be competitive because it lets you work around the drawbacks on all of your skills, compressing builds in the process. As is, it's just a nice bonus that no one can plan for, which makes it a beautifully designed modifier.

If that's what modifiers are going to look like, I have no problem with items having inherent mods. It's when they start having character-altering affects that I start to care, because then scarcity and competitive balance clash and balance needs to win out.

[color=red]double posted :[/color]

I think that both modifier imbalance and item accessability are problems, and the latter makes solving the former that much more difficult.

There are certainly some sickeningly good modifiers out there. Probably too good. But that isn't getting tested, because testers don't have access to those items - because they're rare drops. PvP characters don't take equipment into account at all - they're just level 20s with skill access and some basic equipment. What are the best mods? How important are items? No one really knows because it hasn't been tested.

But let's say that the ridiculous mods are all knocked down, and that every modifier available on a weapon is reasonably balanced. You still have problems because diversity is inherently unbalanced. There will be different characters who want different modifiers - just as there are characters who want different skills - but getting the *right* modifiers can be just as crucial as getting the right skills. You can't just go to a skill vendor or get someone to craft you a charm to find the right item for your build - you have to find the right item type with the right mods spawned in place, and with the wide variety of items available that's quite a task.

As I mentioned, the best example of these are the +1 to a skill mods. Do those even resemble something unbalanced? No. They're prefectly fair modifiers, and their existence adds to the game by making people re-evaluate how they build their characters. What's the problem then? The fact that there are no less than 450 +1 to a skill modifiers, and you have to find exactly the right one on the right item if you want to make use of it.

Right now people don't really think about their equipment too much, in no small part because they don't know what's available. +1 to a specific skill frees up attribute points from lines that you're taking for a small number of skills. There's a weapon upgrade that grants you +20% enchantment duration. There are modifiers that give you significant damage boosts under controllable conditions, such as being enchanted or in a stance. These mods might very well be fair and balanced - but they definitely affect the way you look at skills and build characters. If skills were as hard to find as some of those items are, people would be throwing fits.

The biggest culprit isn't item modifiers, but allowing multiple modifiers per item. Couple that with the fact that rares almost always spawn with item upgrades in place - which cannot be removed - and the odds of getting an item with the right mods, and not being gunked up by bad upgrade parts, are abysmal. If a good rare item had one modifier, and you could usually upgrade them with the parts of your choice, I don't think things would be too problematic. It's when you start stacking everything together, two modifiers, two upgrades in place, that your item system starts to look like Diablo II, with people trying to find rares with a bunch of good mods. It's a grindfest.


I don't see the vigor runes as being a significant balance issue, because I expect them to be accessable - just like all upgrade parts, really. Salvaging high level armors yields a rune a surprising percentage of the time, and vigors pop out just like everything else. Are they high demand items? Certainly. But they're going to be available once people get a chance to play the game for more than three days. As it stands I kinda think of vigor runes as the Stones of Jordan of Guild Wars - valuable, scarce, but common enough to be used as currency in high value transactions. At least that's how I'll be using mine.


I don't know that I agree with this. You need to have enough balanced mods to make the choice of which to use non-trivial, however.

Say, for example, that all of the following were possible modifiers for sword hilts:

+10% damage
+7% attack speed
+5% armor penetration
+3 health per hit
25% chance of +1 energy per hit
33% faster adrenaline gain

Then on the pommel you put something like:

+30 health
+4 defense
+8 defense vs. physical
+8 defense vs. elemental
+20% enchantment duration

(ok, so those are the good pommels that currently exist. humor me)

What sword do you make? Even though each of those is a straightforward bonus, I think you can make a case for making every one of the thirty possible weapons just using those mods. I don't think a system like that would be abusive at all, and would lead to an economy of weapon upgrades as people traded to assemble the right weapon for their class. Compare that to the current system of searching for a rare weapon with the right two mods, and I think the difference is clear.


That brings us to another topic that Saus didn't touch on too much in the first post - weapon swapping.

You don't have to commit yourself to using a weapon that's situationally amazing - you have access to four weapon sets and you should be using every one of them. When your target is vulnerable to energy gain weapons, you swap that one in and beat the tar out of him. Is he protected by a bunch of defensive buffs? Swap in an armor penetration weapon. Getting focus fired? In comes the +defense, lifegain sword. A good player isn't just going to have one weapon, he's going to have several that he switches between as the situation warrants.

What is the energy capacity of a well equipped Monk? 40? 42? Try 62. Normally, you're working with your standard 42 energy capacity. But when crunch time comes and you're up against the wall, you quickswap into your other set - a +10 energy, -1 regen wand and focus. Suddenly, at the cost of temporarily losing some regen, you instantly have access to 20 energy, four more heals, which can easily be enough to turn the battle around. Once you've worked through the crunch, just swap back to your normal gear and let the regen work. Is that going to win you every battle? Of course not. But it's a significant edge, one that no healer should be without.

The fact that competitive players don't just have one optimal weapon, but that they carry *several*, should reinforce just how critical item selection can be - and why access to those items is an important part of maintaining competitive balance.

Peace,
-CxE

If by scarcity you meant alpha scarcity, then I wholeheartedly agree with you. But after this playtesting phase, scarcity becomes much less relevant than balance between mods.

Some skills are incredibly hard to find (i.e: exotic crafter only). Is this a problem ? Certainly if you're considering the characters diversity. But as long as these rare skills are not stronger than regular ones, it's not really a problem for competitivity.

Agreed. Once again I certainly agree that having mods available as components would be good for customization. Yet as long as these mods have been balanced that is not a big issue.

Sure, one could complain that you'll still have to grind for hours to find the ultimate weapon. That is also why I agree that every mod should be available through runes. Simply because you can make your custom weapon instead of grinding for your dream item. But if ultimate in GW means +1% efficiency, I won't mind.

A lot of players are looking for this kind of grind. If they're happy finding an "optimal" weapon to use/sell, then good for them. As long as it's not your average uber D2 weapon, I'm fine with that. Again, this is acceptable only once overpowered mods have been nerfed.

The problem with Vigor runes is that they are useful to all characters. +50 hp is not something you can ignore. So basically all competitive players will use a vigor rune. It's a clear indication that there is a problem with this item. As long as it's generic enough to be used by anybody, it kills diversity.

Hmm... Probably the sword with the 2 mods on top of your comparison table.

Seriously, you don't pick mods that way. Instead, you make a build, look at your strategy+skillset, crunch a few numbers and you'll easily find the perfect mod for you.

Playing with illusionary weapon ? then pick weapon speed !
Need adrenaline to fuel your skills ? then pick the adrenaline mod !
Relying on enchant buffs ? then pick enchantment duration !

These mods are way too generic and too straightforward. It's easy to find the right mod for your build. It's also why I'm not confortable with them.

Indeed.

IMHO, that feature should never have made it to the beta phase. You can't swap a skill but you can change your weapon mods !

As for the energy thingy, I thought this bug had been fixed (+10 max energy but no more free energy). Is it still in the game ?

It's not a bug, it's the way things work. +health/energy add to both your current and max. When you unequip, it subtracts from both. So you're at 0 en, swap in a +10 rod, you're at 10en. Cast a 10en spell, then swap back to a high regen rod, and you're at -10 energy.

I guess using 'bug' was a bad idea. What I meant is that the concept is flawed and abusive. It should be fixed by +/-10 max energy (you don't gain/lose energy by equiping an item).

Why is it abusive? You're just taking out an "energy loan", which you have to pay back eventually. If you don't work it that way, you'll make many skills almost obsolete. Endure Pain, Demonic Flesh etc etc all become useless.

If it worked that way, then you'd just start off your fight with the +20 / -2 pip equipment, then after you've spent 20 energy you swap to your normal equipment to kick your regen back up, since max energy is superfluous at that point. That's even more abusive than how it is now, since you're not giving up the pips when you need the energy badly, nor are you ever dropping into negatives to get that regen back when you pay off the loan.

Peace,
-CxE

I don't think so, not really. While there will be more items in release there's also going to be more players to split them, too. Items and their mods seem to be the result of random drops. All adding more players into the equation of people killing mobs for the chance to get a certain item is to change the numbers, not the percentages. If a monster drops a rare item with that mob on average 1% of the time, it doesn't matter if it's 10 people or 1000, it's still only going to turn up 1% of the time. If it takes an alpha hours of slaughter to get an item it's going to take everyone else that same amount of time, too - if not longer, alphas tend to know and share the best spots and methods to farm.

Of course, past release more people means more of an ecconomy and I think that's a valid point. You might not have to spend the time an alpha would you might be able to head to town and plunk down some gold to get that "perfect" item (And that's what we're talking about here. Not just "good" items. "Perfect" items. Items at the absolute height of their power. Nothing less will do if you want o be competitive. It might be a fraction of a percent difference in power or efficiency but that fraction is exactly what you're looking for if you're trying to reach the top of the mountain or stay there. You want every single advantage you can. You want to do away with ever last disadvantage, no matter how small. You want that slightest edge you can find in order to increase your chance of winning. You're an athlete. You're trying to cut a hundredth of a second off your 100m dash time because that's the differnce between first and third place.) but that in and of itself is problematic. That gold has to come from somewhere. And if the best items are rare they're goign to be expensive. Even if you're not slaughering the Zealots to get the items you might be going after the Pinesouls to get the gold. Or amassing Iron to sell for gold. Whatever, you're still investing time and effort to acquire things, you're just doing it indirectly.

And it also brings up the dark spectre that Ensign mentioned earlier. That of the secondary market. People are going to want the best items if they matter - and they need to matter otherwise there's no point to having them for anyone - and there are always going to be those who'll want to take a short cut. And they'll be willing to pay a premium to do so. There'll be people farming or running bots to collect these items to put them on sale on e-bay or some other way, EULA be damned. While the game might be constructed with instancing to keep a player away from the kill stealing, griefing, and camping that attend a secondary market in a more traditional MMO that doesn't mean a secondary market isn't a problem. Instancing is a great attractor for farming. To respawn things you just reenter the zone. And the zone is static, there's no potential of an outside event beyond your control to interfere with your actions. GW is, if the demand is there, a botters paradise. People will run bots, amass high level rare items, runes, black dyes, skill rings, and more, and then dump them on the market. You might never have to deal with someone stealing your kill but you will have to deal with someone wrecking the ecconomy and devaluing the wealth of your character.

And it's not a matter that can be solved through balancing mods. That's like saying abusive skills can be fixed by balancing. They can't. Not completely. It's just the nature of things that there's going to be some imbalances somewhere. Some combination that's going to be more powerful in a given situation than any other. Diversity is always going to be at odds with balance. The key is to make it so that there are many different checks and counters within the system to prevent something from becoming too overpowered as well as to have several situations so that one combination or skill might be underpowered somewhere in another it's fair or even overpowered. Not every skill is going to be great in PvP, some are going to shine in PvE and vice versa.

Right, I mentioned it in passing. Mostly because it's a whole 'nother can of worms and there was enough on the plate already. The issue of item dependancy and item scarcity was my main point. But you're right, it's a valid and important consideration.

The Warrior with a +1/-1 (And, hey, you want to talk about imbalance? There used to be +2/-1 and even +3/-1 weapons!) energy sword is going to be suffering when they can't attack (But any Warrior is going to have problems when they're up against defensive buffs designed to combat Warriors. It's a worse case scenario. You don't plan how to deal with that. You plan how to keep out of that situation.) but that's only if they're still holding that minus regen sword. You don't hold that sword when you're not planning on swinging. You unequip it and switch to another weapon when you're not in combat (Well, you don't need to when the battle starts, unlike a health degen weapon but whenever you're not fighting and you want to regen it goes in the sheath.). And you try and find a weapon that's going to give you the best benefit in *that* situation. You might hold onto a sword that shortens cripple duration and adds armor against elemental damage, maybe, in case someone's going to take potshots at you or snare you while you try to close. That's the essense of weapon swapping, those bonuses on your weapons are at their best in certain situations by carrying more weapons you can be at your best in many situations. It's not going to be uncommon to see people switching back and forth between their weapons furiously in order to gain that momentary upper hand. At that highest level of competition, anyway.

Not really.

Supply is X items per player per hour
Demand is Y items per player

Scarcity is the ratio of supply to demand, which makes the 'per player' part fall out. The difference between one uber rare among 1000 people, and 1000 uber rares among a million people is negligible from an individual's perspective. Only the passage of time changes the equality, and judging from what alphas are saying the passage of a month doesn't reduce scarcity to acceptable PvP levels.

Scarcity becomes irrelevant as time goes to infinity, but patience is limited.


Now that you mention it, yes, it is. Charm gambling seriously discriminates between connected and unconnected individuals - an organized guild can easily get every skill they want within a day or so, but if you aren't connected you're pretty much on your own to find someone who can make you a charm. If it's an obscure spell that most people don't want? Get ready to sink 10k into gambling, and hope you get lucky...


Options = Power

Give me 50 'balanced' options and an opponent with just one balanced option, and I'll trounce him every time. Balance doesn't mean identical - every skill, every build has weaknesses, and those who have the tools to adapt do so and rise to the top. Those without access to the tools fail.

Skills that are objectively balanced can be subjectively powerful or weak. The value of any particular attribute, skill, or item depends entirely upon what you're up against.

Are the Pyromancer's, Hydromancer's, Aeromancer's, and Geomancer's armors balanced? Definitely. But which one is the best? We could have that debate, but what is certain is that there *is* a right answer, given the context of the opposition.


I'd tell those players to find a different game. People looking for the level grind, the item grind, the treadmill with that carrot always in front of them are going to be severely disappointed with Guild Wars, whether item availability is changed or not. Hitting level 20 takes a week at most - getting all the skills you need is a matter of days. Why is it that way? Just a design decision made early that guided the rest of the process. Certainly, the game *could* be reversed into the standard 'time spent, not player skill' model, but I and many others would be severely disappointed.


I don't think so - the problem with Vigor runes is the lack of viable alternatives. The formula for the vast majority of characters is 'the best vigor rune and minor runes for all of my attributes', with slight variations like 'best vigor rune plus best absorption rune plus minors for all attributes' for Warriors, and 'best vigor rune plus a major or superior rune for my one main skill line plus minors for everything else' for more specialized characters.

If there was actual competition for armor slots, whether to take a vigor rune or not would be an actual decision. As it stands, a lot of characters have empty slots for runes in their armor, even with optimized equipment - there are zero decisions to be made.


Is it really that easy? Or are you just glossing over the actual decisions being made because they're easy to understand?

+7% attack rate is a +7% damage boost in and of itself. Do you have enough additional buffs to make that worthwhile over the straight 10% damage, or are you better off with that? The increased attack speed helps you charge adrenal skills faster, as well. the +armor penetration mod? That one varies wildly - against casters it's weak, but solid when prying open tin cans. In addition, it gets even better when stacked with other armor penetration - but how much better?

What is increased energy and adrenaline really buying you, but increased damage from fueling damage skills? Between attack skills stepping on each other and inefficiencies, you just might be better off taking the straight +damage, even with adrenaline heavy builds.

Which is better, +30 health of +4 armor? Why? Do you understand the relationship between health and armor, how the two feed upon each other, and how each of those mods actually affect your chances of survival?

I don't think that the mods at the top of their respective lists are the best in those lists. I don't think it's even close, in fact.

The simpler the mods, the harder it is the find the *right* mod. Why? Because they have *possibility*. Each can be used in so many ways, they're applicible to so many different builds, that when it comes time to actually choose just one the decision is surprisingly difficult. Sure, understanding what a mod actually does is easy, but evaluating it in context? Incredibly difficult.

Compare that with more obscure mods. These are the exact opposite - they're hard to understand, but incredibly easy to evaluate once you understand how they work. That's the nature of obscure and narrow effects - they aren't generally applicible so very few people ever want to bother with them.

Certainly, there are builds that are clearly going to want one particular item over another - but how is that different from having obscure mods? With general mods, you give people the option of using several different bonuses to augment their build. With weird mods, you give them a bunch of non-options and a couple of mods that obviously fit. How is that any better?

Peace,
-CxE