Fixing the 55 "bug/exploit"

http://www.guildwarguru.com/forum/sh...5&postcount=14

I think this is brilliant : to not alllow -75's to stack considering the +3 from the superior doesn't stack.
Doesn't make sense the bonus doesn't stack yet the detriment does. If anything it hurts people that are new to the game and don't think the 75 HP is a big deal: ending up with full superiors while whining about how easy they die.

It will also basically rid the game of 55ers.

EDIT 3/8/2006: The point is there is very little logic in having the -75 from the rune stack and the +3 attribute not stack. It should be both do not stack, considering you do not get the +3 attribute.

Well then everyone would just wear sup runes for every attribute line as there is no penalty...

And then everyone becomes a 55 elementalist because it has five skill lines. Fantastic idea that one...

Fantastic indeed.

I think the OP is meaning runes of the same attribute, like 2 sup healing runes. That way any class withouth 5 atts couldnt be a 55 build

I love this idea, rid the 55 monks and hopefully help increase the number of good monks out there.

As far as the 55 elementalists go, I say let them do it eles dont get enough play as it is.

But I really do like the thought of the majority of monks out there being played as a support class, as opposed to the farming monks that tend to not do so well in team situations.

OK, so instead of having a lot of runes for health degen, people will just sick with one -75 and the -50 off hand. Then they can run out and agro the mobs and die. rinse and repeat untill they have -60% DP, and guess what? It's a self regulating farmer. They are invincable untill they work off the DP and die, then they get more DP.



Laz

Sadly I have to agree with you. However I still have hope that maybe if its that much more of an inconvience, it could possibly reduce the number of people who have monks simply for farming purposes.

I like playing monk more than any other class, With factions coming out alot of people are going to be playing their monks simply to explore the new world fast.

The one thing that gets under my skin is a monk who dosent understand the basics of monking. On later missions in the game it can be annoying when the 2nd monk on the team has little to no concept of energy management. I blame alot of this on the fact that alot of people only have experience farming with monks, where energy management isnt really a problem.

So I'm all for anything that may help weed out uncapable monks. I'm not saying all farming monks suck, im simply saying alot of the monks that DO suck, are sucky becuase all they know how to do well is solo farm.

QFT

55hp is not a bug. If it was, Anet would have nerfed it as soon as became known.

Something you need to realise about most 55HP farmers. We all started poor. That means a lot of us didn't have enough money to farm with a full loadout of superior runes, or maybe we hadn't found the quest that gives us the -50HP accessory. We started with more than 55HP. We can go back, if we have to. That, or a simple swap of SoJ to Aura of Lich and lower our ability to nuke.

Constant cries to nerf farming fall on deaf ears by Anet, I'm sure, because they can tell at a glance that you're still new to the game. if you weren't, you'd realise that, after you beat it a few times, theres nothing left to do but PvP, help guildies, and farm.

55HP is the main/only way for monk characters to farm solo. But they aren't the only farmers out there. every class from Ele to tank has a farm build, many of them posted right here in guru and more than one as "exploitive" as any monk build.

So, to nerf monk farms, Anet has to, to be fair and remain balanced, nerf them all. Do that, and verteran players lose 1/3 of the reason to keep playing. PvE ONLY players lose half.

People don't play half a game very long...and they don't buy its sequels.

So then they don't buy Factions, continue giving better weapons to guildies, or...stay around anymore. Fresh blood keeps the genre alive, but its the veterans, the people who've played this game start to finish, that help those young guns stick around, stay alive, and learn the tricks to enjoy playing GW. People deride farming as bad for GW economy. I ask you, if most long standing PvE players don't continue to play, what will THAT do for in-game economy? What will that do for Anets?

Not only are you biting the hands that feed you, your asking Anet to cut them off for you as well. Why? Really; I want an answer. is it because of you can't afford to make a 55HP? Neither could I when I started this game. Is it because you don't think this game was designed to be soloed? Well, take that up with Anet; I'd love to grab henchmen and farm greens, but I can't. Zoning in with a group of henchmen nerfs good drops to 1 in 1000 as opposed to a full human group of 1 in 100.

Or is it because you go to Augery and see a sea of tattoed monks NOT helping your PUG finish Thirsty River?

Nerfing monk farming will NOT increase the number of good monks out there. It will reduce them because veteran monks will have less reason to keep their monk in one of those 4 valuable character slots (soon to be 6). And don't start with the "buy another account business; I'm sorry but I don't see enough advantages to excuse spending $100 on a $50 game.

i suggest all of you, before you jump on the Ban Farms band Wagon, beat the game a few times. Its obvious from reading most of these anti-farm threads that you're either trolling for discord or haven't played long. Its also obvious that, if you aren't trolls (and more than a few of you are) that you don't have a very good guild. I suggest you find one, even if that means leaving the one you're in. Most farmers I know have more loot than they can stash and a healthy disdain for spending their time trading. When we run out of room, we either drop the price or start giving junk to guildmembers.

And thats downright horrible for in-game economy, now ain't it? Depriving traders of customers by giving our stuff to our friends, or (worse!) flooding the market with inexpensive inventory overflow, lowering the prices on items so people don't have to farm their brains out to afford a 100k+ecto sup Absorption rune for their Wa/R PvP toon (I know, its not worth that much...now. Truth be told, it never was. But people were charging that high for it, and people were paying it too.). Forget the fact that Anet has lowered the drops on all farms, making it harder to get those items in the first place the more time you spend in a particular area. And forget that Sorrow's Furnace was added into the game months AFTER release because Anet realised that PvE was such a huge factor and players were getting bored fast (so they make a place with items that all but scream "farm me!!!"). Forget all that. Lets focus on the real reason people dislike 55HPers (and farmers in general).

I understand the stigma surrounding farming. In other games, like WoW and EQ, farming IS bad. it promotes KillStealing, and exploits can have zone-wide consequences for other players. I was a naughty EQ1 bard, AE kiting entire zones of mobs to powerlevel myself before they nerfed it into the ground. For those of you unfarmilliar, EverQuest has a large social zone, where multiple players enter and play with and against one another, trying to stay alive and kill stuff. Most of the time, its not a problem. but when you have a character that can grab agro from every mob in that zone and then run around untouched, killing said mobs at the same time...ouch. Levels, money and items galor...for one person.

Guild Wars doesn't have that problem, however, since no one can enter a zone with you unless you let them. the AoE bard kiters and their ilk are non-existent here, leaving you only with a simple need to ensure your party is a good one before you zone. The EXTREME majority of solo farmers farm SOLO. When we enter a zone, we do it alone. So we can't affect your play experience; GW is desigend to prevent that from happening.

The only real reason for anyone to complain about solo monk farmers is the UW sneak, a nasty scam being perpetrated by a few poor sports who sneak into groups with a 55HP build only to let the team die so they can farm the ectos by themselves.

Its not Anets fault that these people exist, its Gods. If they couldn't profit from your untimely, unfair deaths, most fo these people woudl still find a way to get you killed. They'd zone out after the group paid for UW (seen it) or afk once inside, standing around to watch and enjoy as you flame them impotently. They're jerks and TeamKillers who happen to be farmers. Take away the farm, they'll still be jerks and TKs; it won't change.

But you still have an option open to you. Take screenshots of them using 55HP with you clearly stating in the chat text that they scammed the group and got you killed. If you can, get the whole group to polietly flame them. Hit the Print screen button LOTS of times, and send those pics to Anet, along with a thorough explaination of when where and how you and your team was scammed out of a plat and a UW run.

If you don't help yourselves, how can Anet help you? Your solution is to nerf the innocent. I say, fend for yourselves and stop whining.

EDIT: to mattjones527: My monk does play healer/Prot monk. She just doesn't PUG. I don't have one set of armor decked out with all sup runes; I have three:
1. My farming armor
2. PvP Tattoos
3. A set of cute 1.5k (I think it looks nicer than the FoW I had, so I swapped back) armor for PvE when my guild needs me.

You preceed from a false assumption, that any monk with a farming build tends to become either lazy or was never very good to begin with. In point of fact, your replies contradict each other, saying that while you would like to see all those 55s become "real" monks, you also think that all 55s make POOR monks because they don't understand how to Heal/Prot.

As intimated before, unless they eBay their way into purchasing those runes, 55HP monks have to be good enough at some type of profession to farm the money to get them. If they are that good at one profession then they have enough of a grasp of build physics to know that one build does not work in all situations, and that a rigid build designed only to work in areas without degen conditions, hexes, lifestealing, self healing mobs, and heavy interupts has NO place in actual combat. Just like OoB does not always need to take up a monks Elite slot when there are many extremely good monk skills that would be of better use in certain situations/missions/builds/teams.

If you always take energy management I humbly suggest you find a way out of PUGs and into a decent guild with a Necro that had the sense to grab Blood Ritual (when I PvE N/Me, monks loveth me). It sounds like, from your complaint, that you've been spending too much time playing with inexperienced groups, not just inexperienced monks.

Assuming everyone who runs a 55 is an idiot is, well, idiotic.

Why exactly should the 55 build be removed? Because you can't make it work or something? If you get a 55 in your group, and don't notice right away, that's your fault.

that would give the raise to 55hp eles, wooooot I support that (oh wait, I play it already like that )

Just to mention that the superior ele runes are way cheaper too
It hardly cost my 1k for the necessary things, got a collectors armor set with 5 sup ele runes, the grim cesta, and a fiery flame spitter for under 1k.


But even if this build would be around, I still could farm with my earth build, or just have warriors asking themselves in gvg "why does this **** ele doesn't die!!!!!!!!!!!!!" ;p


Anyways also play the camouflaged monk with my ele. I loved it that I also began for a second char a monk (ele is stil my first love doh), but monking takes a lot of effort, but gives you a great feeling to (esp when you party just showes for once you did a great job at keeping them healthy)
IMO its the hardest profession to play, there are so many things you can't controle like partymembers over aggrooing, just wanting to be the hero, ..., thats why I practically only pve with my monk, when there are guildies in my team! We know how to deal with eachother, know to really communicate (instead of pug where you get your head shouted as NOOB, loser, screw monk or so), just try to play a monk and be good at it (it really takes effort)

I don't want to sound like certain proffession are easy, but just those who think one is easy try for themselves and see the truth.

And I have no problem at all with farming (indeed the greens are out there to have max weapons so you could take these for your pve char into pvp)!

And to be good at this game you don't have to farm you just have to be good with your skills!!!!!!!

Right, your forcing a significant disparity here. If you nerf 55 monks in this way, you are basically saying that monks, necromancers and mesmers all cannot farm at all. That's just as bad for the game. Elementalists don't get enough play because Anet doesn't understnad the numbers of the game they created (both in PvP and PvE). I'm sorry they are thick and apparently refuse to do anything, but don't go and call for monks to get hurt to bring everyone down to the pack.

Well reading that saved me the time of having to write out what i was going to say. I'm glad someone els to the time to go through 55 monks in general. Personaly im getting tired of hearing people say that 55 monks ruin everything. I dont believe so. Its the poeple complaining that 55 monks ruin everything that actualy ruin everything.

It takes time and effort to be an effective 55 monk as is. I know for a fact that 55 UW solo builds dont always go perfect, thus your not always making money. I know my first few tries ended up with something dieing, and it wasnt the axtate.

Also just because people 55 monk, dosnt mean they cant be a decent heal/prot monk aswell.

I do alot of Solo 55'ing. When my guild needs me on my monk, i swap my armor, skills and weapons, and they call me the best monk they've ever had. Why? its because some poeple know how to play multiple builds, instead of as some claim only 55hp builds.

Why does every1 wanna kill 55 monk?
To be fair its a good idea but 55 monk is a genius build... whats the point in trying to nerf it?

Ya Charqus, its pointless to end something soo briliant and fun..if u dont like 55 monks dont even talk to them

If someone is new to the game they probably wouldnt have the money to buy 5 sup mon krunes to begin with, unless they use ebay.

This will not magically bring good monks in to all cities, and missions. I am a 55 monk, but i also have a 2nd set of armor for when i want to help guildies or cap a skill. I despise monking for pugs, so if the 55 monks get killed i will not start doing missions again, especially since i have finished them all. You will still be out a good monk and you will still be whining.

As to Minus Sign and Stalker Haras, very very well put.

Well, since that is a part of my post in another thread, I would like to say something about it.

I too agree 55HP monks should stay in the game. They provide a somewhat steady incomeof ecto and rare items into GW's "economy". No, I do not have a 55 anything.

The reason I said that is because the guy in the thread was complaining they killed 55 HP monks by adding the scarabs to the giffs, while they're still exellent builds to solo pretty much everything else. (not to mention the W/Mo farmers and everything else that farmed PP has to relocate)
Next stop will probably be the Troll Cave north of Droknar.
I just gave an example how ANet could really kill 55 HP monks.

BTW, they can gather some DP, but it would be the end of UW solo/dual runs (N/Me with 1 rez, 15% Dp is gone before you reach the smites), and would be rather hard to program the bots, which was ANet's plan, kill Chinese bots.

55 E/Mos...yeah, might still work afterwards, and it will at least rule out that the monk in the party is a 55 HP monk who will screw the party...People will just hate eles even more then...

You get decreased enegry when you die. That is not good for farming builds.

And to the people that argue that "55 monks help the economy", it doesn't help teaming. It decreases the amount of credible monks and many times UW teams cannot be formed because there is no monk (or a 55 pretends to be a regular healer/prot monk and runs off to smites).

Lastly, for the sake of logic, it doesn't make sense to have -75 HP when you don't get the benefit of +3.

It's not desirable but it's hardly a breaker. I use my 55 monk with preseareing armour because I like the looks more than tattoos. I use collector armour for my 55 necro because I like the looks. I use presearing armour for my 55 ele because I like the looks. The diminished energy isn't the problem you make it out to be.

You still haven't addressed how this is going to fix anything because everyone will just turn into a 55 ele.

No. What i'm reading now is that they want to reduce the number of superior runes a character can equip to 1, like your Elite skills. To be honest, with Aura of Lich reducing HP by half, thats really the only way TO guarantee an nerf of monk farming with this build. If I AM reading that right, then they're not just talking about nerfing my farming build, but every other build on every castor toon I have.

I always have 3 superior runes on my monk, and usually 3 on my necro (or the mesmer I'm building again). Superior Vigor +2 casting assist runes, heal, prot or Divine Favor. This isn't just a farming build I'm talking about here, but my PvE builds AND my PvP builds.

And I think we've addressed already how most farmers are both good for the economy and for groups...just not YOUR groups as we are more selective and tend to group with our guild when we heal/prot. This is not because we're farmers. Its usually because we're older players and don't like playing such a high stress profession with groups that will get themselves and us killed (only to blame us when they do). Farming isn't the reason why good monks aren't teaming with you; its poor attitude against monks by PUGers that made us leave. On the rare occasions I do PUG farm, I don't play monk.

You're right though, no one in this thread or any other has said why 55s are bad for GW yet (at least, not to the extent that it cannot be easily refutted). They've said how they've had bad experiences with 55s in UW, but there are ways to report scammers other than ranting about how you want Anet to avenge your wounded pride by nerfing a whole sub-culture of innocent people. They've explained how 55HP reduces the ammount of good monks in the game becuase they only know how to play that one build. But then they openly contradict that by wanting farming banned so these monks will start to play with them again.

There is only one common theme I hear from all of this: "nerf farming so these people will have to play with me again!"

Honestly, this thread (like all the others of its kind) is starting to degrade into Trolling. So I'm going to bring this to a head here and now:

Either explain why 55 is so bad, or stop complaining about it. Welcome to Guild Wars Guru; most of us here expect rational, well thought out arguments about a topic before we start endorsing perma-nerfs.

I think you missed the point of my post. I am simply agreeing with someone else’s suggestion with the ele statement. Also I would recommend reading other posts preceding mine, just look at what Laz said and all of the sudden there is no “disparity” as you like to call it.

Minus sign please read my posts completely before saying im wrong. I never said that farming monks become bad im saying the in their current state if all they have done is farming they tend to not do as well monking on a team. Also I never said Either lazy or bad to begin with anywhere in my posts

In fact my replies do not contradict each other, All I want is for people who are playing monk chars is to play a monk because they enjoy playing it and not simply because it is easy to farm with.

Also I usually avoid absolutes in my posts to avoid flames, notice in my previous posts I even say “I'm not saying all farming monks suck”. I am just saying people who play monks strictly for farming persons have less experience at monking on a team. I am not saying anyone who farms with their monk sucks and will always suck.

First off how in the world is one sentence supporting someone else’s idea whining in any way?
Oh and READ MY POST! it says “hopefully” for a reason, because I doubt it would contribute to getting better monks, I simply hope that instead of people deleting a monk they may actually play monk in PUGs and become good at it. In which case there is the possibility of getting more capable monks.

Nuff said; close this thread. I know it’s a long one, but if you read all of my post, I already said that’s the REAL reason why people want the 55 farmers nerfed. You don’t really care about economy or exploitation. You want Anet to force veteran monks back into PUGs.

If that is the only rationale being made for this nerf, then its time to put this to bed. It’s named Guild Wars for a reason. The better players (i.e: those who can honestly afford to spend several thousand plat on a single build) are long since out of PUGs. Others noticed our skills and abilities and asked us to join them. We then asked others, creating a small group of good players that we could rely upon for support, advice, strategy and company on the long road from The Wall to Hell’s Precipice. Next thing you know, we’ve a cape and a Hall and keep recruiting while we run alternate characters through, further weakening PUGs by taking the best players into the fold.

People like me are the bane of PUGs, you’re right. But not for the reason you surmise. PUGs get little benefit from me because when a Guildie asks me to run THK with them, my reply once I’m there is “Grab henchies and let’s go”. That, or if they are in a good PUG group, a person like me will notice the best players and start recruiting them!

We play in Guild groups now, helping new Guild members learn or level their characters. My Guild is very happy to have a 55HP farmer/runner/PvEer. I get them places, help them when they ask me and give them some really nice swank! It’s not just a question of the respect they give when I play through missions with them; I’m a valuable resource to my Guild.

And I know you don’t deal in absolutes in your writing Matt. But I also don’t let people lean to one side while straddling the fence. Hope=desire=want this nerf to happen. Blaming the 55HP build for poor monk skill (ie; energy management)=saying that people who use 55HP builds suck and need to learn how to play GW the right way.

The Right Way of playing this game being your way, in full man groups supplemented with henchmen when needed.

You were right to clarify however; your intent did not match the words you chose in the context of your statements. Just like my tone in this reply could be read as condescending or hostile. That’s not my intent. I want you to hear (Black and White, Absolute) what you’re saying to us and the consequences of what you endorse, so you can better understand what we’re saying to you:

You’re way IS the right way…for you and the people you choose to group with. It is not the right way for me and the people I choose to group with (when I choose to group). If I forced you to build a farmer, that’s not fair to you. You don’t like farms; you prefer communal play to going it alone. I ask you, if you get Anet to force me to group with you when and how I don’t want to, how is THAT fair to me?

I think the real way to pump competent monks back into the Pug economy is for the common misconception that "six players can focus solely on offence because two players are on defence" to die a horrible, horrible death. A beautiful glossy publication entitled "aggro control and you" sent out to a few hundred thousand gamers wouldn't hurt either.

As for the 55 build "problem," the best solution I've heard would be to mix the monster positioning up. Maybe decrease the large hordes of single monster types in favour of balanced groups of enemies (see avicaras for a good example of this).

Anet isn't overly concerned with people farming to raise funds to deck out their characters or get something nice for their guildies. Anet is pulling out thier own hair because of farmers that grind for ten hours a day to sell ingame property online (*cough*foreign sweatshops*cough*). I'll agree with them on this point, but how do you cause misery for the farmers doing it for money but not legitimate farmers?

Having said all that, my beef with the 55 monk build: MONK RUNES HAVE BEEN WAY TOO BLOODY EXPENSIVE FOR MY ENTIRE GUILD WARS CAREER

Try 55hp Ele/Mo - There signs it's the new 55hp farmer and the runes are cheap. What appears to be happening is Anet loves the idea of Asa/Ele warp status afflect / use AOE spells warp out, side effect is other uses of a beefed up ele skills...

We can solo Avicaras lol. In fact i have been soloing them and Grawl the last few days because its quite profitable. Just stay away from the Avicara Guiles they use Strip Enchantment.

Yes the runes are expensive but i guess you just have to start saving like everyone else.

Horray, now people give my ele/monk a bad name too? And this thread is not so much a gripe about the 55ers as it is about how DISADVANTAGES STACK and the BONUSES DONT. Either both stack (+3 Attribute AND the -75 HP) or BOTH DONT. Doesn't make sense to have -75 HP if you do not get the +3 attributes.

Another matter or concern is that the point is not to make people only able to wear one superior rune. I've seen warriors think they are so good, only to find out they wear superior Weapon, strength AND tactics on the same armor. That is SAD. It means you have a 225HP deficit.

EDIT: new idea here: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=133432, which is better

or 105/55 hp warriors, more needs to be done in order to fix the solo farm problem, and it doesnt have to do with runes

Then Why is the name of your Thread 'Fixing the 55 bug/exploit?' If you wanted to see runes stack, you should have titled this thread "Make Superior Runes Stack.