Mesmer's one Redeeming quality

Eaimirth Etaivella

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

Seekers of the Apocalypse

E/

Would it be considered a fact, that one mesmer, knowing the opponets skill list, could take that opponet down no matter what?

Is it true, that a mesmer could always win a 1-1 of this type?

Discuss

remmeh

remmeh

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2005

Apathy Inc [AI]

R/Mo

hell, if given merely the opponent's primary class, one decent mesmer could EASILY solo that opponent. no matter what.

sno

sno

Look into the Eye.

Join Date: Oct 2005

Detroit, Mi

Oh No Not These Guys [uhoh]

Mo/

First of all, Mesmers have loads of amazing qualities, and I'm sure you're about to get flamebombed (although I highly discourage it.)

Secondly, it is quite possible for a mesmer (supposing that he knows the opponents skillset) to destroy any target of any other class, with the possible exception of an interupting ranger.

@ mantra of resolve: a good interupter will be able to interupt several skills rapidly, which (now that resolve and distortion have been nerfed) will drain the mesmer quite quick. It certainly wouldn't be "easy", especially if the r/mo had hex removal.

Dragannia

Dragannia

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2006

Venatio Illuminata [VEIL]

Me/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by sno
First of all, Mesmers have loads of amazing qualities, and I'm sure you're about to get flamebombed (although I highly discourage it.)

Secondly, it is quite possible for a mesmer (supposing that he knows the opponents skillset) to destroy any target of any other class, with the possible exception of an interupting ranger. Mantra of Resolve.

Game and set.

remmeh

remmeh

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2005

Apathy Inc [AI]

R/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragannia
Mantra of Resolve.

Game and set. and/or Distortion for match

SnipiousMax

SnipiousMax

Perfectly Elocuted

Join Date: Sep 2005

Mesmer's are kinda the "anti" character. But everyone has weaknesses, and any good player would now what any good mesmer would do against them...and prepare. I think its hard to say that a mesmer will always win 1v1.

Avarre

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

Quote:
Originally Posted by sno
First of all, Mesmers have loads of amazing qualities, and I'm sure you're about to get flamebombed (although I highly discourage it.)
Sno, must you remove my remaining pastimes?

Anyways, distortion was not nerfed for mesmers. Unless you were running a -2, its still -1 at 13 illu which I didn't have a problem adapting to whatsoever.

1v1, mesmers will crush anything. Even interrupting rangers aren't a problem, with the new ineptitude, we're looking at 240 damage from clumsiness and ineptitude, combined with the failure spells and empathy. Warriors are the same thing, basically, bringing along some degen to kill them if they don't attack. Ignorance for no more healing siggy wouldn't be bad too.

Necros, Eles, Monks -> edenial build with wrack will kill them, so long as you have some ok antihex and interrupts to take the first wave from the ele. For ele pblock + wand is enough most of the time

For other mesmers, it's really a who-plays-better tossup, and either way, the mesmer wins

What if...

What if...

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jan 2006

Me/

I agree, if the mesmer has any weakness, it's that many of the adverse qualities inflicted by its hexes are conditional, meaning you could probably sit still and wait for them to wear off and go about your business as usual. This isn't necessarily a bad thing though; mesmers were never supposed to act as a damage-dealing caster class anyway, they're supposed to inhibit the enemy movements.

JR

JR

Re:tired

Join Date: Nov 2005

W/

I don't think a mesmer could kill a competant boon prot. Shut him down? Mostly. Kill? I doubt it.

Anything else however, the mesmer pretty much has it sown up. although as sno implied, that is hardly the ONLY redeeming quality of mesmers. They are as good as any other class in PvP.

LightningHell

LightningHell

(????????????)???

Join Date: Aug 2005

Hong Kong

Guildless

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by JR-
I don't think a mesmer could kill a competant boon prot. Shut him down? Mostly. Kill? I doubt it.

Anything else however, the mesmer pretty much has it sown up. although as sno implied, that is hardly the ONLY redeeming quality of mesmers. They are as good as any other class in PvP. 2nd Point: Possibly/Probably better, too.

Avarre

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

Quote:
Originally Posted by JR-
I don't think a mesmer could kill a competant boon prot. Shut him down? Mostly. Kill? I doubt it.
Mindwrack energy burner with signet of humility.

Corinthian

Corinthian

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarre
Mindwrack energy burner with signet of humility. Yes, even if they swap focuses to combat energy denial, the Mind Wrack will still get them. And you can't do anything to Diversion. Mesmers rule!

d3kst3r

d3kst3r

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2006

Brisbane, Australia

Mesmers are like the specialist class designed to do 1 thing and do it much better than anyone else. Eg. an anti warrior mesmer could destroy a warrior better than any other class, an anti caster mesmer could beat a caster better than any other class, an e-denial mesmer has better e-denial than anyone else. Only problem is that mesmers uses are extremely narrow depending on how you set them up.

Cherno

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

Stars of Destiny

E/

Well it takes more thought to build a skill set up for a mesmer throughout the game. They need to know their environment and prepare for it, unlike most of the other classes.

As they say, A Jack of All Trades, is a Master of None.

Become a Master of Many, where appropriate.

JR

JR

Re:tired

Join Date: Nov 2005

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarre
Mindwrack energy burner with signet of humility. If we are just naming skills that counter each other... Signet of Devotion, Conteplation of Purity. With focus swapping even under constant energy denial you will have 15/17 energy for self heals and hex removal, if you are good. The counter to diversion? Drop that pre-cast holy veil, or just don't cast for a few seconds.

sno

sno

Look into the Eye.

Join Date: Oct 2005

Detroit, Mi

Oh No Not These Guys [uhoh]

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by JR-
If we are just naming skills that counter each other... Signet of Devotion, Conteplation of Purity. With focus swapping even under constant energy denial you will have 15/17 energy for self heals and hex removal, if you are good. The counter to diversion? Drop that pre-cast holy veil, or just don't cast for a few seconds. Indeed, a very good boon prot could SURVIVE a mesmer for quite a long time... but what does a boon prot have for damage, a wand?... The argument was 1v1, and in 1v1 a boon prot has absolutely no offense. All the mesmer would have to do is constantly throw nastiness at him and eventually the monk would run out of energy even with his focus swapping, it would just take awhile.

Dragannia

Dragannia

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2006

Venatio Illuminata [VEIL]

Me/N

Quote:
Originally Posted by JR-
If we are just naming skills that counter each other... Signet of Devotion, Conteplation of Purity. With focus swapping even under constant energy denial you will have 15/17 energy for self heals and hex removal, if you are good. The counter to diversion? Drop that pre-cast holy veil, or just don't cast for a few seconds. Signet of Humility: Not a hex.

Mind wrack: A hex with a five second recharge.

Burn, Surge, etc: Not hexes.

JR

JR

Re:tired

Join Date: Nov 2005

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by sno
Indeed, a very good boon prot could SURVIVE a mesmer for quite a long time... but what does a boon prot have for damage, a wand?... The argument was 1v1, and in 1v1 a boon prot has absolutely no offense. All the mesmer would have to do is constantly throw nastiness at him and eventually the monk would run out of energy even with his focus swapping, it would just take awhile. Not with decent energy management. And with decent focus swapping you should *not* run out of energy. The battle between a mesmer and a decent boon prot would last untill one of them fell asleep I think.

Mr Ownager

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Feb 2006

Canada

Hidden Village of Shadow

Even after nerfs are considered?

Murder In China

Murder In China

Banned

Join Date: Sep 2005

/B/Chan

Looking for one

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by JR-
Not with decent energy management. And with decent focus swapping you should *not* run out of energy. The battle between a mesmer and a decent boon prot would last untill one of them fell asleep I think. The Booner will have their energy mangement shut down due to Signet of Humility. So all that extra mana on the reserves to heal then swap back will trigger Mind Wrack which slowly kills the monk.

Two April Mornings

Two April Mornings

No Luck No Time No Money

Join Date: Nov 2005

Amherst College, MA

Scars Meadows [SMS]

Me/

mesmers could own with a p, pwn, boon prots

JR

JR

Re:tired

Join Date: Nov 2005

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Murder In China
The Booner will have their energy mangement shut down due to Signet of Humility. So all that extra mana on the reserves to heal then swap back will trigger Mind Wrack which slowly kills the monk. So you take 95 damage from Mind Wrack, and then heal through it with a Signet of Devotion for 106 (which can be cast every 5 seconds). While all of this is happening, your energy is safely regenerating in your primary set, so if you really needed to you could swap down and use a reversal.

Believe me. The last two GvG's I remember where I was playing boon prot was against Ronin Corps and Storm Bearers. Both of them were running two surge/burn/sow mesmers, one of which sat on my face all the way through each game. With a warrior heavy offense we couldn't even really pressure them, thanks to distortion. However, with focus swapping I was not only able to heal myself, but other members of my team.

Murder In China

Murder In China

Banned

Join Date: Sep 2005

/B/Chan

Looking for one

W/

That's IF the booner carries Signet of Devotion.

Lady Callingwell

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2005

Lightning Strikes Twice [LST]

Me/

This thread is pretty worthless imho, every single character can counter every other character as soon as they know the opposing skill list in advance...

glountz

glountz

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Nov 2005

W/Mo

Mantra of Inscription + Signet of Humility hurts, JR. Did the team you encountered were bearing it?
106 signet of Devotion is at 16 Divine Favor. Boon prot monks usually run high DF, but with their 10 Blood/Insp magic, it's not that high. And SoD is not in the usual boon prot skill set, but I agree to see it more and more due to dual surgers' abundance.
Hmm, I'm sure a boon prot can't win the match (as it has no offense), but I think the mesmer could eventually win the struggle anyway.

Avarre

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

Quote:
Originally Posted by JR-
So you take 95 damage from Mind Wrack, and then heal through it with a Signet of Devotion for 106 (which can be cast every 5 seconds). While all of this is happening, your energy is safely regenerating in your primary set, so if you really needed to you could swap down and use a reversal.

Believe me. The last two GvG's I remember where I was playing boon prot was against Ronin Corps and Storm Bearers. Both of them were running two surge/burn/sow mesmers, one of which sat on my face all the way through each game. With a warrior heavy offense we couldn't even really pressure them, thanks to distortion. However, with focus swapping I was not only able to heal myself, but other members of my team. Hellu gentlemen, but we speak of 1v1! 'we couldn't even really pressure them, thanks to distortion' means your team was attacking, and they were kiting.

You can't spam veil. I can put diversion up and catch your skills one by one till I wand you dead, if I have to. I could bring shatter enchant too, considering I have fairly high domination. I gave you a very basic outline framework of a build, you've made assumptions only to counter the skills I listed. I have played boonprot however, and know most of the features of it... I also know every time you swap focus, 90~ damage goes your way. You're also assuming the mesmer wont get a burn in just as you swap foci, giving you a swift 170~ kick in the pants. I could even bring ignorance, just to mess with SoD. We're not talking that X build could beat Y, were talking that a mesmer, properly set, can defeat any other class.

Thread derailing... anyways, why would, assuming you knew a 1v1 was imminent, play a boon monk? Lets consider this to be the proposed '1v1 arena', why would you play a booner? Pure grief attempt?

JR

JR

Re:tired

Join Date: Nov 2005

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by glountz
Mantra of Inscription + Signet of Humility hurts, JR. Did the team you encountered were bearing it?
I've had it used on me a couple of times, it wasn't really that big of a deal. When you are used to a 25 second recharge on your elite energy management anyway, it's not hard to deal without it for a while.

Quote: Originally Posted by glountz 106 signet of Devotion is at 16 Divine Favor. Boon prot monks usually run high DF, but with their 10 Blood/Insp magic, it's not that high. Boon prots should be running 16 Divine, 9 Prot, 10 Inspiration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by glountz
And SoD is not in the usual boon prot skill set, but I agree to see it more and more due to dual surgers' abundance. Exactly, which is why I run it all the time now.

Anyway, as stated this thread is a bit pointless. 1 vs 1 situations are entirely unrealistic, I just got caught up trying to prove a point.

Avarre

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

Quote:
Originally Posted by JR-
it's not hard to deal without it for a while. You do realize you will be dealing without it for the ENTIRE conflict, not just awhile? 12 insp SoH is constant. Anyways, I doubt the booner would survive still... say I shatter boon, you switch to recast, take wrack damage, I shatter again... and so on. You wouldn't be able to keep your health up, especially (as you're specifying your equipment) if I brought a necro wand to trigger your RoF with.

JR

JR

Re:tired

Join Date: Nov 2005

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarre
You can't spam veil. I can put diversion up and catch your skills one by one till I wand you dead, if I have to.
If I was enough of a retard to cast through it every time, yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarre I could bring shatter enchant too, considering I have fairly high domination. You think I would be stupid enough to use enchants vs. a Dom mesmer?

Quote: Originally Posted by Avarre I gave you a very basic outline framework of a build, you've made assumptions only to counter the skills I listed. Wrong. I told you what I usually use, and how I would counter it with that.

Quote: Originally Posted by Avarre
You're also assuming the mesmer wont get a burn in just as you swap foci, Is it that hard to time a focus swap to the recharge of burn and surge?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarre
I could even bring ignorance, just to mess with SoD. We're not talking that X build could beat Y, were talking that a mesmer, properly set, can defeat any other class. And I am telling you that the boon prot that I run, which I would consider a fairly common build, would not get dropped by a single mesmer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarre
Thread derailing... anyways, why would, assuming you knew a 1v1 was imminent, play a boon monk? Lets consider this to be the proposed '1v1 arena', why would you play a booner? Pure grief attempt? I was considering something along the lines of... you split with a ranger to help him cap the stand against another flag runner who brings a dom mesmer. Both runners die, leaving you alone with the mesmer. An entirely unrealistic setting, but then the context of this thread it's self is entirely unrealistic.

Avarre

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

Quote:
Originally Posted by JR-
And I am telling you that the boon prot that I run, which I would consider a fairly common build, would not get dropped by a single mesmer
Hardly a boon monk, since you mentioned you would not be using divine boon (or veil) at all. You've also mentioned using holy veil? Without boon, your heals are completely restricted to SoD and your minor divine favor bonus.

Quote:
You think I would be stupid enough to use enchants vs. a Dom mesmer?
So actually, yes. Yes I do.

Quote:
Wrong. I told you what I usually use, and how I would counter it with that. You've told me you'd counter diversion with a skill you weren't stupid enough to use. Go figure.
Quote:
Is it that hard to time a focus swap to the recharge of burn and surge? You assume a mesmer would stick to a solid cast-on-recharge pattern? Well fine. Is it that hard to time a burn to the switching of foci?

Quote:
An entirely unrealistic setting, Quite, as generally monks just run away...

Lady Callingwell

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2005

Lightning Strikes Twice [LST]

Me/

Quote:
Originally Posted by JR-
An entirely unrealistic setting, but then the context of this thread it's self is entirely unrealistic. That's what I allready told before, if we put it the other way around, get a Mesmer who needs to give his entire build away in advance, I can guarantee you that with each primary and a well suited secondary the mesmer can be killed. That's the whole point of GW, nothing is imune to counters and you'll have to work on a team build in order to provide good results. No single class is going to do that for you.

JR

JR

Re:tired

Join Date: Nov 2005

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarre
Hardly a boon monk, since you mentioned you would not be using divine boon (or veil) at all.
I may not use them, but they would be on my Bar. And Veil would be fine to use, as long as it was dropped immediately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarre completely restricted to SoD and your minor divine favor bonus.
Considering your main damage will come from burn, which will be burning next to no energy, that's no big deal. SoD can heal for 106 every 5 seconds, I'm not too worried.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarre
You've told me you'd counter diversion with a skill you weren't stupid enough to use. Go figure. I said you can drop a pre-cast veil to remove diversion. Or just not cast.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarre
You assume a mesmer would stick to a solid cast-on-recharge pattern? I'm sorry, do you somehow have the ability to cast before the skill has recharged?

Cirian

Cirian

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2005

European Union

The Amazon Basin

Quote:
Originally Posted by JR-
I'm sorry, do you somehow have the ability to cast before the skill has recharged?
(just thought I 'd pick this one up)

I think she's saying instead of casting the surge/burn the instant the skill has recharged, she'll watch for you swap focus to gain energy and either surge or burn you before you switch back. Focus swapping can be used against you for surge/burns (80 damage, assuming 10 energy lost) and mind wracks (~90 damage).

I suppose the most efficient way to stop a Signet of Devotion would be /R for distracting shot. 5 energy, 10s re-use, 1 damage, and most importantly: disables the signet for 20s. No need to spend any points on /R attributes, but switching between a wand and bow becomes necessary...

edit: just a note on waiting for Diversion to expire - Diversion's partner-in-crime is Wastrel's Worry, which is 68 damage (@16Dom) if you don't use a skill for 3s. Obviously Diversion is there to either stop you from using a skill (triggering damage from WW) or catch you out (disabling a skill). WW is 5 energy on a 1s recast, so the mesmer can do things like cast WW, follow up with Diversion, then recast WW after the first expires.

Assuming WW is recognised and the target reaches for a skill to cancel it, it might get caught by Diversion as it lands and become disabled for ~1 minute. If Diversion lands and a skill isn't used because of it... WW triggers for 68 damage, gets refreshed, and will expire before Diversion will for another 68 damage.

Total: 136 damage with additional damage from wanding. Around the time Diversion is ending, it's time for a mind wrack/e-burn combo for another spike. e-surge can be held in reserve for if the target focus swaps at some point, and that's an ideal time to drop another fast refreshing mind wrack too.

Assuming the mesmer has the energy for all this.

JR

JR

Re:tired

Join Date: Nov 2005

W/

I'm pretty much done with this thread, but I will reiterate what I said before:

I personally have been in GvG matches, and had a Surge/Burn/SoW mesmer completely unobstructed sit on my face for the majority of the time. In said time, I have not only been able to keep myself alive, but also other people. Thanks to the power of focus swapping. As in; they had two mesmers, we had two monks. They parked a mesmer on each of our monks for the entire game.

Maybe the Rn and SB mesmers just totally sucked, and somehow even failed at karate chopping their keyboard, but I doubt it. Even looking at the numbers they are in my favour.

Adios.

Lady Callingwell

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2005

Lightning Strikes Twice [LST]

Me/

Surging is plain simply overvalued imho, I've never had any serious problems versus dual surgers unless they're accompanied by 4 warriors going for pure dps. Even than a simple diversion spam or a few interupts on guardian hurt me more than any e-denial.

Eaimirth Etaivella

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

Seekers of the Apocalypse

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by JR-
I'm pretty much done with this thread, but I will reiterate what I said before:

I personally have been in GvG matches, and had a Surge/Burn/SoW mesmer completely unobstructed sit on my face for the majority of the time. In said time, I have not only been able to keep myself alive, but also other people. Thanks to the power of focus swapping. As in; they had two mesmers, we had two monks. They parked a mesmer on each of our monks for the entire game.

Maybe the Rn and SB mesmers just totally sucked, and somehow even failed at karate chopping their keyboard, but I doubt it. Even looking at the numbers they are in my favour.

Adios. Then we need some buffage to the mesmer skills...

qwe4rty

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2005

Texas

Brewed to Perfection [BtP]

Quote:
Originally Posted by sno
Indeed, a very good boon prot could SURVIVE a mesmer for quite a long time... but what does a boon prot have for damage, a wand?... The argument was 1v1, and in 1v1 a boon prot has absolutely no offense. All the mesmer would have to do is constantly throw nastiness at him and eventually the monk would run out of energy even with his focus swapping, it would just take awhile. Actually, just to point out a couple things, not that they mean much.

Before the nerf, in the TA Ice lvl, my boon prot killed an air ele 1v1. Then agin, he wasnt smart, but still , the Boon Prot can do more dmg wanding then most mesmers can heal. (How many Mesmers will bring ether fiest?)

2nd, I used Balths Spirt in 4v4 Arenas for more energy, and would never run out 1v1, 2v1. So, I think a good boon prot could last indefinatly vs a mesmer.

Hafnt played one since the nerf, (in fact, hafnt been on Guild Wars much, college visits/applications etc)

Francis Crawford

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2005

I much doubt that the mesmer has a guaranteed win knowing just the profession(s) of the opponent.

For example, you're facing an Ele/Ra. I defy you to come up with a build that will defeat all of:

1. A weak (since it's the secondary profession) but classic interrupt ranger
2. A weak but classic beastmaster ranger
3. A classic air elementalist
4. A funky Permanent Obsidian Flesh build that incorporates enough speed management to defeat kiting

As to whether a mesmer can beat anybody who has to publish his skill bar in advance -- probably. But the same is probably true of five* other professions.

*Soon to be seven

Corth

Academy Page

Join Date: Nov 2005

Sentinels of Eternal Souls

N/

ok, why are we forgetting about spell breaker here?

"Oh man, I'm going 1v1 against a casting class, meh, better elites than spell breaker..."

Yes, a monk can own a mesmer, yes a mesmer can own a monk. It'll just depend on the skills that are brought, and your actual skill. (and not how much you grind/been on raids, GW FTW!)

SnipiousMax

SnipiousMax

Perfectly Elocuted

Join Date: Sep 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corth
ok, why are we forgetting about spell breaker here?

"Oh man, I'm going 1v1 against a casting class, meh, better elites than spell breaker..."

Yes, a monk can own a mesmer, yes a mesmer can own a monk. It'll just depend on the skills that are brought, and your actual skill. (and not how much you grind/been on raids, GW FTW!) Spell breaker will be interrupted before you get it off. If you do get it off, it lasts only so long, and has a long recharge time. Not the best thing to fend of a mesmer.