What does requirment actually do?
Zinphin
Title says it all.. i searched already and couldnt find anything. What does it actually effect and how?
kvndoom
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...nics-id674.php
If you don't meet the requirement, your weapon does a very minimal amount of damage. However, even if you DO meet it, your weapon will not do 100% of its full damage unless you have 12 in your weapon attribute (except for the rare req 13 weapon that comes along). Only fools pay a ton extra for req 7 or 8 weapons, when they need 12 attribute points to do its full damage anyway.
In other words, a req 7 max damage sword will NOT give you 15-22 damage at 7 swords. It will give you 9-14 damage, and you'll wonder why your monk is killing enemies faster with her Holy Rod. Regardless of the sword's requirement, you will not be doing 15-22 damage until you have 12 points in swords.
If you don't meet the requirement, your weapon does a very minimal amount of damage. However, even if you DO meet it, your weapon will not do 100% of its full damage unless you have 12 in your weapon attribute (except for the rare req 13 weapon that comes along). Only fools pay a ton extra for req 7 or 8 weapons, when they need 12 attribute points to do its full damage anyway.
In other words, a req 7 max damage sword will NOT give you 15-22 damage at 7 swords. It will give you 9-14 damage, and you'll wonder why your monk is killing enemies faster with her Holy Rod. Regardless of the sword's requirement, you will not be doing 15-22 damage until you have 12 points in swords.
Haggard
so a req 12 something is the exact same dmg as a req 7 something at lvl 12 attribute?
stool_cannon
KVN are you sure about that? Where is it documented?
Poison Ivy
Quote:
Originally Posted by stool_cannon
KVN are you sure about that? Where is it documented?
He's lieing, I'm selling a Req. 7 rare IDS btw, only 100k + a couple million ectos and shards.
Niosisw
KVN what you are saying is crazy...
9-14 with a max sword at 7 req? No, I know from exp that's not true at all.
Maybe it will do 9-14 on something with better armor, but that has to do with the enemies armor.
9-14 with a max sword at 7 req? No, I know from exp that's not true at all.
Maybe it will do 9-14 on something with better armor, but that has to do with the enemies armor.
Weeping Wind
Quote:
I think what he is saying is true. But of cause you have to take armour into account. Even if you had a req. 12 weapon and put 12 into the attribute slot if the enemy you are attacking is using high armour defense skills then obviously you are going to do less. If you still did the max damage then there would be no need for armour in the game would there :P
Weeping
Rajamic
What KVN said is somewhat true, somewhat false due to oversimplification. But it is the way players talk about the game, because it's much simpler to understand and discuss than the completely accurate truth.
When you get down to it, there is no such thing as 100% damage based on attributes, as far as the game is concerned. Attribute levels and Armor levels balance each other out evenly, at least through attribute level 12 and AL 60. In that span, 1 Attribute level = 5 AL.
Thus why it made sense in the game's design to have attributes cap at 12 from points and standard end-game caster armor be AL 60. And for simplicity of understanding in the minds of humans, particularly those of us that can't do high level math without scratch paper, we consider 12 in a weapon attribute and 60 AL to be the standards. There's no reason 0 and 0 or 5 and 25 could not have been used. But 12 and 60 makes more sense, since that is what you see end-game for player characters.
If you treat less than 12 in the Weapon attribute as being less that 100% damage, you also have to think of armor in a way the less than 60 AL amplifies damage. The above linked article does a pretty good job of showing that in the chart on AL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggard
When you get down to it, there is no such thing as 100% damage based on attributes, as far as the game is concerned. Attribute levels and Armor levels balance each other out evenly, at least through attribute level 12 and AL 60. In that span, 1 Attribute level = 5 AL.
Thus why it made sense in the game's design to have attributes cap at 12 from points and standard end-game caster armor be AL 60. And for simplicity of understanding in the minds of humans, particularly those of us that can't do high level math without scratch paper, we consider 12 in a weapon attribute and 60 AL to be the standards. There's no reason 0 and 0 or 5 and 25 could not have been used. But 12 and 60 makes more sense, since that is what you see end-game for player characters.
If you treat less than 12 in the Weapon attribute as being less that 100% damage, you also have to think of armor in a way the less than 60 AL amplifies damage. The above linked article does a pretty good job of showing that in the chart on AL.
Quote:
so a req 12 something is the exact same dmg as a req 7 something at lvl 12 attribute?
If two weapons are identical except for the requirement, and your attribute level meets or exceeds both requirements, then yes, they will act exactly the same. Lower requirements are only valuable for 2 reasons:
1) They provide greater build flexibility. For example, and Interrupt Ranger doesn't care all that much about how much damage they deal, so having 12+ Marksmanship isn't usually desired. Having a bow with 9 Marks requirement will still be better than a Marks 12 bow, becuase they can drop their Marksmanship lower without having the bottom completely fall out on their damage output.
2) Misunderstanding. Some people believe that the farther above the requirement you are, the higher critical hit rate you have. However, no tests have ever been able to prove this is true.
1) They provide greater build flexibility. For example, and Interrupt Ranger doesn't care all that much about how much damage they deal, so having 12+ Marksmanship isn't usually desired. Having a bow with 9 Marks requirement will still be better than a Marks 12 bow, becuase they can drop their Marksmanship lower without having the bottom completely fall out on their damage output.
2) Misunderstanding. Some people believe that the farther above the requirement you are, the higher critical hit rate you have. However, no tests have ever been able to prove this is true.
Battle Torn
/agreed
only scammers truly want you to beleive that a req 7-8 anything is more powerful than req 12. Low requirments only allow you use them with lower lvl char etc and who doesnt have 12 attribute in sword or axe anyway if they are a warrior? dont mention riposte/smite builds for UW I get it already... no one will play with less that 12 in their primary if they wish to attack normaly as well as use skills.
only scammers truly want you to beleive that a req 7-8 anything is more powerful than req 12. Low requirments only allow you use them with lower lvl char etc and who doesnt have 12 attribute in sword or axe anyway if they are a warrior? dont mention riposte/smite builds for UW I get it already... no one will play with less that 12 in their primary if they wish to attack normaly as well as use skills.
Amsterdam
lvl % of damage mod
0 35.6%
1 38.6%
2 42.0%
3 45.9%
4 50.0%
5 54.5%
6 59.5%
7 64.8%
8 70.7%
9 77.1%
10 84.1%
11 91.7%
12 100%
13 104%
14 107%
15 111%
16 115%
So you should clearly always have your req 12 just as many stated above me. I think people want low req things all the time for a few reasons, cause they want the best for starters. Also because they may use things like stance builds and builds that don't need to do MUCH damge, so they just have the req at 7 8 or 9. This way they can keep other attributes alot higher.
0 35.6%
1 38.6%
2 42.0%
3 45.9%
4 50.0%
5 54.5%
6 59.5%
7 64.8%
8 70.7%
9 77.1%
10 84.1%
11 91.7%
12 100%
13 104%
14 107%
15 111%
16 115%
So you should clearly always have your req 12 just as many stated above me. I think people want low req things all the time for a few reasons, cause they want the best for starters. Also because they may use things like stance builds and builds that don't need to do MUCH damge, so they just have the req at 7 8 or 9. This way they can keep other attributes alot higher.
holden
Quote:
Originally Posted by stool_cannon
KVN are you sure about that? Where is it documented?
dude put the freakin link right in his post. and all you guys are calling him crazy.....
everyone of you needs to read ensign's post that KVN put in his reply
that you failed to even open before calling him a liar or asking if he's sure.
12 is the magic number. 16 makes people die. but i love it when wammos put 13 in health and 9 in weapon. STRONGBAD
everyone of you needs to read ensign's post that KVN put in his reply
that you failed to even open before calling him a liar or asking if he's sure.
12 is the magic number. 16 makes people die. but i love it when wammos put 13 in health and 9 in weapon. STRONGBAD
Mr.H.Mishima
OK, at first I was going to disagree, but then I thought of something I did last night...I added a Zealous hilt to a req 12 sword trying out a new build, and left LA to do an Ettin run. I usually kill the Fire Imps because they seem to drop a lot of Charcoal for me...anyway, I usually carry a reg 8 Gladius and do somewhere in 40 to 50 damage on a normal swing to the Imps. I was hitting them for 71 damage 9/10 times with no skills at all with my req 12 Flamberge.
Here's the kicker: I ALWAYS have 15 in sword for this farming run no matter what the build.
Here's the kicker: I ALWAYS have 15 in sword for this farming run no matter what the build.
fallot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hells Last Survivor
Here's the kicker: I ALWAYS have 15 in sword for this farming run no matter what the build.
The other sword doesnt have a Fiery mod does it ?
Mr.H.Mishima
Quote:
Originally Posted by fallot
The other sword doesnt have a Fiery mod does it ?
Of course not. Barbed Hilt.
fallot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hells Last Survivor
Of course not. Barbed Hilt.
Odd. Mind posting some screenshots ?
Mr.H.Mishima
No, not at all. I'll try and grab some tonight.
holden
Quote:
Originally Posted by fallot
Odd. Mind posting some screenshots ?
only odd if you can't read. he used a sword with req8 while his attribute was at 15 and did so much damage. then he used a sword with req12 with his attribute still at 15 and did even more damage.
hmmmmmm
i think that's what KVN was talking about in his post.
amsterdam as well with the chart he posted.
Effect of Attributes on Weapon DamageAttribute
Level Percent of
Weapon Damage
0 35.6%
1 38.6%
2 42.0%
3 45.9%
4 50.0%
5 54.5%
6 59.5%
7 64.8%
8 70.7%
9 77.1%
10 84.1%
11 91.7%
12 100%
13 104%
14 107%
15 111%
16 115%
As an example, if you had a normal, customized (20% more damage) 15-22 damage Dragon Sword, and a level 9 Swordsmanship attribute, each swing with the weapon would deal:
15 × 1.20 × 2(( 5 × 9 - 60 ) / 40) = 13.88 minimum damage
22 × 1.20 × 2(( 5 × 9 - 60 ) / 40) = 20.36 maximum damage
While swinging the same sword with a level 12 attribute would deal:
15 × 1.20 × 2(( 5 × 12 - 60 ) / 40) = 18.0 minimum damage
22 × 1.20 × 2(( 5 × 12 - 60 ) / 40) = 26.4 maximum damage
only odd if you can't read. he used a sword with req8 while his attribute was at 15 and did so much damage. then he used a sword with req12 with his attribute still at 15 and did even more damage.
hmmmmmm
i think that's what KVN was talking about in his post.
amsterdam as well with the chart he posted.
Effect of Attributes on Weapon DamageAttribute
Level Percent of
Weapon Damage
0 35.6%
1 38.6%
2 42.0%
3 45.9%
4 50.0%
5 54.5%
6 59.5%
7 64.8%
8 70.7%
9 77.1%
10 84.1%
11 91.7%
12 100%
13 104%
14 107%
15 111%
16 115%
As an example, if you had a normal, customized (20% more damage) 15-22 damage Dragon Sword, and a level 9 Swordsmanship attribute, each swing with the weapon would deal:
15 × 1.20 × 2(( 5 × 9 - 60 ) / 40) = 13.88 minimum damage
22 × 1.20 × 2(( 5 × 9 - 60 ) / 40) = 20.36 maximum damage
While swinging the same sword with a level 12 attribute would deal:
15 × 1.20 × 2(( 5 × 12 - 60 ) / 40) = 18.0 minimum damage
22 × 1.20 × 2(( 5 × 12 - 60 ) / 40) = 26.4 maximum damage
Mr.H.Mishima
This could turn the market on it's head if people ever read this thread. Let me go buy all those Req 12 and 13 axes and swords before people get wind of this....
/runs off
/runs off
kvndoom
Mannn... Try to help people and they turn up the flames in denial, eh?
Ivy's post was sarcasm, for those who missed it.
It was the main reason I switched to Watchful Spirit instead of Mending for most of my W/Mo farming builds. Why put 8 points in healing when you can get +2 regen for free and put those points elsewhere? I used to believe all you had to do was meet the requirements also, before I found Ensign's page. And his info is straight from Anet, so flame him all you want if you desire to be humbled.
If you're still not convinced that your 25 million gold Furious Sundering Crystalline Sword of Vital Blessing Fortitude doesn't do jack shit for damage at its "required" level 7, it's very easy to prove because of one simple fact: you can INCREASE your attribute levels in a mission or instance.
So find a realtively easy farming spot, where you can whack away at the baddies without worrying about healing. Enemies should be at or close to your level. Leave town with your weapon attribute only at its req level, but enough spare points to raise it up to 12 gradually. Start beating up the monsters, taking a good look at the numbers. Go to the Hero screen and raise your weapon level up 1 point. Look at the numbers again. Do this all the way until you get to 12. THEN come back and call me a liar, please.
But I'm sure someone will, regardless, just so he can feel smug about all the money he wasted. Just the same as his Fissure armor can magically absorb more damage than my desert collectors'.
Ivy's post was sarcasm, for those who missed it.
It was the main reason I switched to Watchful Spirit instead of Mending for most of my W/Mo farming builds. Why put 8 points in healing when you can get +2 regen for free and put those points elsewhere? I used to believe all you had to do was meet the requirements also, before I found Ensign's page. And his info is straight from Anet, so flame him all you want if you desire to be humbled.
If you're still not convinced that your 25 million gold Furious Sundering Crystalline Sword of Vital Blessing Fortitude doesn't do jack shit for damage at its "required" level 7, it's very easy to prove because of one simple fact: you can INCREASE your attribute levels in a mission or instance.
So find a realtively easy farming spot, where you can whack away at the baddies without worrying about healing. Enemies should be at or close to your level. Leave town with your weapon attribute only at its req level, but enough spare points to raise it up to 12 gradually. Start beating up the monsters, taking a good look at the numbers. Go to the Hero screen and raise your weapon level up 1 point. Look at the numbers again. Do this all the way until you get to 12. THEN come back and call me a liar, please.
But I'm sure someone will, regardless, just so he can feel smug about all the money he wasted. Just the same as his Fissure armor can magically absorb more damage than my desert collectors'.
Mr.H.Mishima
Hey, you'll get no denial from me...I've seen it with my own eyes...I was completely shocked when I was seeing the numbers for damage last night.
I WILL post the screens tonight just so the non-believers will have their photographic proof.
Oh, and I really suck at Photoshop.
I WILL post the screens tonight just so the non-believers will have their photographic proof.
Oh, and I really suck at Photoshop.
Savio
Quote:
Originally Posted by kvndoom
Quote:
Now the real reason to meet your req is this. If you have a req 7 that has benifits with the mods that depend on meeting the req then it is effective to meet that req. You do not always need to go to 12 (implied in this thread). There are many reasons to use a req 9 with only 9 in the attribute colum of that skill. Take this quote also from esign as an example.|
If you're still not convinced that your 25 million gold Furious Sundering Crystalline Sword of Vital Blessing Fortitude doesn't do jack shit for damage at its "required" level 7, it's very easy to prove because of one simple fact: you can INCREASE your attribute levels in a mission or instance.
Many of the better collectors and traders know about this already, they just like having low requirement weapons. However, a lot of people think expensive = better, which is the case in many other games but generally not so in Guild Wars. @Hells Last Survivor: what's the stats on the Gladius? I'm getting 50-80 damage on Imps with a +15% +20% sword. fallot
Quote:
Originally Posted by holden
only odd if you can't read. he used a sword with req8 while his attribute was at 15 and did so much damage. then he used a sword with req12 with his attribute still at 15 and did even more damage.
I think you need to look back at what you wrote, very carefully. He kept his Sword Mastery at 15, he should do the same damage with both weapons if all other things are equal according to the list you posted.
Me NoFat
I have linked to that article in so many posts it is not funny. The following is all your really need to understand about it. I would say read the whole article so that you understand how armor factors in but this is the most important part.
Originally Posted by ensign
Quote: If you are attacking the target with a sword, axe, hammer, or bow, the amount of damage that you'll naturally deal depends on both the inherent damage of the weapon, and your level in the corresponding attribute. The relationship between your attribute level and damage is a simple exponential over a 0-12 attribute level range: [Effective Damage] = [Weapon Damage] × 2((5 × [Attribute Level] - 60) / 40) After 12, the returns on increasing your weapon attributes diminish sharply - each additional level is worth just 40% of what the previous levels got you. More generally, for attributes over 12 use the following equation: [Effective Damage] = [Weapon Damage] × 2((2 × [Attribute Level] - 24) / 40) |
Quote:
Most characters will find they are most useful when they have four, five, or six attribute levels, and there are quite a few effective choices at each level, so you still have your work cut out for you.
Rest of the article which also deals with attribute distribution is here:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...tion-id270.php
When you are designing a build that uses multiple areas of attribute distribution which you will do in some areas ....
*Healing/Illusion/Death Magic/Beast Master what ever 2nd class skills you need*
Str
Tactics
Sword/Axe
It is helpful to meet your req in axe/sword/hammer. While you dont get to the 100% that a req 12 provides you do effective damage if you meet your weapons req and you save attrib points for distribution.
So why is a req 7 benificial. Well I can meet 7 easy (4+3) and do effective damage output with the weapon. I have many attribute points left to distribute so that I can have snare skills, defensive skills, aoe skills, etc...
My post here is just to clearify that yes a req 7, 8, 9 is more desirable for valid reasons. If you do not meet the req then your damage sucks. If you do meet the req then you get meaningful damage with attribute points left to distribute for a more effective build in most PvE situations.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...tion-id270.php
When you are designing a build that uses multiple areas of attribute distribution which you will do in some areas ....
*Healing/Illusion/Death Magic/Beast Master what ever 2nd class skills you need*
Str
Tactics
Sword/Axe
It is helpful to meet your req in axe/sword/hammer. While you dont get to the 100% that a req 12 provides you do effective damage if you meet your weapons req and you save attrib points for distribution.
So why is a req 7 benificial. Well I can meet 7 easy (4+3) and do effective damage output with the weapon. I have many attribute points left to distribute so that I can have snare skills, defensive skills, aoe skills, etc...
My post here is just to clearify that yes a req 7, 8, 9 is more desirable for valid reasons. If you do not meet the req then your damage sucks. If you do meet the req then you get meaningful damage with attribute points left to distribute for a more effective build in most PvE situations.
fallot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Me NoFat
My post here is just to clearify that yes a req 7, 8, 9 is more desirable for valid reasons. If you do not meet the req then your damage sucks. If you do meet the req then you get meaningful damage with attribute points left to distribute for a more effective build in most PvE situations.
Quoted for truth.
Riken Chrono
ah who needs attribute points in your weapon? use deadly riposite and riposite and Glads Defense jk well kvndoom is right i tried myself and i would get screenshots if i kenw how to use photoshop
jk well kvndoom is right i tried myself and i would get screenshots if i kenw how to use photoshop
Mr.H.Mishima
Quote:
Originally Posted by Savio
@Hells Last Survivor: what's the stats on the Gladius? I'm getting 50-80 damage on Imps with a +15% +20% sword. I'll get back with you tonight...just had a new addition to the family this weekend and things are quite crazy...
wahoyaho
What about requirements on shield?
Sk23Von
I believe for sheilds and other offhands, if you dont meet the req, you dont get the bonus thats comes before it.
I.E. If the sheild/offhand says
Defense 16 (Req 10 Tactics)
Health +30
I think youd get the 30 health but not the armor if ur tactics were below 10. Dont quote me on this though, theres a good chance Im entirely wrong.
I.E. If the sheild/offhand says
Defense 16 (Req 10 Tactics)
Health +30
I think youd get the 30 health but not the armor if ur tactics were below 10. Dont quote me on this though, theres a good chance Im entirely wrong.