Monk Energy Management Comparison

wheel

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jun 2005

Topeka, Kansas

Tyrian Fo Lyfe [word]

09 Mar 2006 at 17:10 - 1

I'm making this post to put up accurate information comparing the various energy management spells that are out there for monks.

A little notation explanation should be given first:

Recycle: Term used to describe the total time a skill takes to go through its cycle, Cast+Recharge time. The skill doesn't begin recharging until it's done casting. Thus, recycle is the true indicator of it's frequency of use.
Casts/Minute: 60s / Recycle

Energy/Minute: This is calculated by giving the net energy per use of the spell, multiplied by Casts/Minute.
Energy Pips: This is probably the most useful number for someone just looking at the numbers for the first time. Those 4 > arrows on the energy bar of your monk, the pips? This is the calculated amount of pips you add on to your bar through the use of the spell. It's calculated by taking (Energy/Minute) / 60 * 3. For more information on energy pips, click here.
Energy Swing/Minute: This is going to be the same on all the spells except for Energy Drain. This statistic describes the net change in energy from one character or team to another character or team. In EDrain's case, it steals 8 energy from the opponent and returns 16 energy to the caster. The energy swing adds both the energy stolen and the energy gained.
Energy Swing Pips: This is the Energy Swing/Minute converted to energy pips. See above for explanation of the calculation.

EDrain1 9 or 10 Inspiration
Recycle: 20.89
Casts/Minute: 2.87218765
Energy/Minute: 31.59406415
Energy Pips: 1.579703207
Energy Swing/Minute: 54.57156534
Energy Swing Pips: 2.728578267

Drain Ench2 10 Inspiration
Recycle: 20.98
Casts/Minute: 2.85986654
Energy/Minute: 23.45090562
Energy Pips: 1.172545281
Energy Swing/Minute: 23.45090562
Energy Swing Pips: 1.172545281

PDrain2 10 Inspiration
Recycle: 20.305
Casts/Minute: 2.954937208
Energy/Minute: 48.4609702
Energy Pips: 2.42304851
Energy Swing/Minute: 48.4609702
Energy Swing Pips: 2.42304851

MoR2 10 Inspiration
Recycle: 20.9
Casts/Minute: 2.870813397
Energy/Minute: 37.89473684
Energy Pips: 1.894736842
Energy Swing/Minute: 37.89473684
Energy Swing Pips: 1.894736842

Inspired Hex2 10 Inspiration
Recycle: 20.9
Casts/Minute: 2.870813397
Energy/Minute: 17.79904306
Energy Pips: 0.889952153
Energy Swing/Minute: 17.79904306
Energy Swing Pips: 0.889952153

OoB (Unadjusted)3 10 Blood
Recycle: 12.57
Casts/Minute: 4.77326969
Energy/Minute: 53.46062053
Energy Pips: 2.673031026
Energy Swing/Minute: 53.46062053
Energy Swing Pips: 2.673031026

OoB (Adjusted)4 10 Blood
Recycle: 12.57
Casts/Minute: 4.77326969
Energy/Minute: 34.36754177
Energy Pips: 1.718377088
Energy Swing/Minute: 34.36754177
Energy Swing Pips: 1.718377088

Note, if you have any questions about these numbers, post here and I'll give further explanation.

1. Using Garbok's Cane & 20/20 cast/rech offhand (Wand & Offhand)
2. Assumed are Garbok's Cane & Chalice (single 20% cast, dual 20% recharge mods, +1 20% Inspiration) (Wand & Offhand)
3. Assumed are Gordac's Needle & Hook Blood (dual 20% recharge mods, +1 20% Blood) (Wand & Offhand)
4. Assumed is the same equipment as 3, but the numbers are adjusted to account for the energy cost associated with healing the sacrifice caused by OoB. I used a value of 4e for this cost.

Now, what do all those numbers mean? Well, not a whole lot if you don't put them in context. Let's first compare the different elites to each other on their own merit.

EDrainBenefitsDenies Enemy Energy Has the most efficient net energy swing Provides instant energy Low initial investment of energy Has no breakpoint at 10 Inspiration, allowing you to run 9 Inspiration to the same effect letting you free up some points for your other attributes. DrawbacksForces you to overextend your position sometimes 1s cast is susceptible to interruption, and being trained on a warrior Conditional upon the enemy being drained to actually have energy to drain Mantra of RecallBenefitsHighest energy return (outside of OoB where health sac is unconsidered) Provides another Enchantment to be removed by CoP, removing an additional 1 Hex & Condition, and a larger heal Cover enchantment for Divine Boon DrawbacksHigh intial energy cost 1s cast is susceptible to interruption, and being trained on a warrior Energy return is delayed Susceptible to being Stipped/Shattered/Drained when you don't need the energy, wasting the 10e intial investment, and wasting time it's recharging after it's removed. This also leads to easier exploitation of energy denial on the character with MoR Offering of BloodBenefitsHighest absolute energy return (not factoring in energy cost of healing the health sac) Very low .25s cast Instant energy DrawbacksHigh health sacrifice Energy efficiency is cut back by the cost of healing the sacrifice Time efficiency is cut back by the time it takes to heal the sacrifice.

Re:tired

Join Date: Nov 2005

09 Mar 2006 at 18:06 - 2

Very nice work, shows just how good Drain Enchant is especially. Great to have some accurate numbers to look at.

Asplode

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2005

Chicago, IL

Rebel Rising [rawr]

09 Mar 2006 at 18:09 - 3

You forgot Bonetti's Defense! and... Wary stance!
-edit-
On a serious note, MoR's recycle is much more complex, because if you hit the half recast time %, you're forced to CoP and recast if you want to exploit the energy gain, giving it a 5e higher investment, and additionally if you are a boon monk you have to recast boon, another 5e investment, and then recast MoR for 10e. Of course, that's if you choose to take advantage of your recast proc.
-edit2-
I guess you can add edrain's lower min inspiration investment as a pro, assuming you're running that as your only inspiration skill.

Re:tired

Join Date: Nov 2005

09 Mar 2006 at 18:19 - 4

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asplode

You forgot Bonetti's Defense! and... Wary stance! I do hope you are joking.

Auntie I

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2005

Veritas Invictus

E/Me

09 Mar 2006 at 18:34 - 5

wheel you have OoB "unadjusted" and "adjusted". What do you mean? What's being adjusted?

wheel

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jun 2005

Topeka, Kansas

Tyrian Fo Lyfe [word]

09 Mar 2006 at 18:36 - 6

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auntie I

wheel you have OoB "unadjusted" and "adjusted". What do you mean? What's being adjusted?

Quote: Originally Posted by wheel OoB (Unadjusted)3 10 Blood
OoB (Adjusted)4 10 Blood

3. Assumed are Gordac's Needle & Hook Blood (dual 20% recharge mods, +1 20% Blood)
4. Assumed is the same equipment as 3, but adjusted for 4e cost of healing OoB sacrifice.
Read the fine print

Auntie I

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2005

Veritas Invictus

E/Me

09 Mar 2006 at 18:41 - 7

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheel

Read the fine print

Ahhh. I did actually read the fine print, it just didn't seem clear to me at the time. OoB is odd in that you have to spend energy to mitigate the negative affects of using it.

wheel

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jun 2005

Topeka, Kansas

Tyrian Fo Lyfe [word]

09 Mar 2006 at 18:42 - 8

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auntie I

Ahhh. I did actually read the fine print, it just didn't seem clear to me at the time. OoB is odd in that you have to spend energy to mitigate the negative affects of using it. I'll rewrite the footnotes so they're a little more explanative.

IWF

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Feb 2006

Mo/

09 Mar 2006 at 20:42 - 9

The adjusted OoB was calculated before the sacrifice was changed to 20% or after?

wheel

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jun 2005

Topeka, Kansas

Tyrian Fo Lyfe [word]

09 Mar 2006 at 20:46 - 10

Quote:

Originally Posted by IWF

The adjusted OoB was calculated before the sacrifice was changed to 20% or after? All these numbers were done after the update.

Fenix Swiftblade

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2005

Illusion of Competence

R/W

09 Mar 2006 at 20:54 - 11

What, nothing for Peace and Harmony?
Even if it isn't that great, it should be in the table for comparison.

ubard

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Feb 2005

Canada, Ottawa

Mo/

09 Mar 2006 at 20:58 - 12

pretty snazzy. nice little guide there.

personally i am liking Edrain these days, works quite well.

for non-elite energy management drain enchantment is really nice, and i am surprised this is the first place i have seen it put up near the big energy management tools.

good show.

Re:tired

Join Date: Nov 2005

09 Mar 2006 at 21:08 - 13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenix

What, nothing for Peace and Harmony?
Even if it isn't that great, it should be in the table for comparison. P&H is very difficult to do. Partly because it is so damn open to being removed all the time, and partly because it can be kept up on multiple people. It is however still very poor energy management, so I don't think I would have bothered. If you are going to include trash like that, you may aswell include Consme Corpse, Bonnetis Defence... etc.

Fenix Swiftblade

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2005

Illusion of Competence

R/W

09 Mar 2006 at 21:44 - 14

0.99 pips versus the 1.57 or 1.71 of EDrain or OoB(adjusted)? It's not that much worse at all. The problem of course as you say, is the 30 second recharge, and the likelyhood of it being removed for a net gain of much much less than 0.99 pips. And of course, if you are going to be using this on a single character, the elite slot isn't worth it.

The things that I think save the skill from being complete trash are that it's linked to Divine Favor, which as a monk you'll have anyway, and that it can be cast on others. If you're only going to cast it on yourself, there isn't a point at all. If you're planning on attempting to maintain it on 2 or more people, you're getting 1.98 pips out of one skill. Also, the other monks in your party can be free to choose non-energy management elite skills.

The energy management provided by PnH isn't the main reason why it's never used, it's the difficulty in using it well. If it couldn't be removed, or had a very fast recharge, I think it would see quite a lot of play. The not attacking or damaging people is an issue, but now that you can actually use any non-smiting monk skill you want with it, it's a lot less restricting than it used to be. The biggest problem is making sure it's always on. Using lots of cover enchantments, Order of Pain, Aegis, etc, reduces that likelyhood, but you have to be able to really trust that your group will have them up most of the time. (and hope the other team doesn't bring Rend Enchantments...)

Again, a lot more drawbacks than the other skills, and less single target energy gain, but I think it has a lot of benefits that make up for it somewhat. The build it would be useful in would have to be very specific though.

The way I think of it is this:
Roughly 3 Energy Pips from one skill thats very difficult to use. The only question is, Is "very difficult" actually "immpossible".

One more small benefit I just thought of; when you have an energy denial mesmer depleting your energy, PnH works very well while focus swaping. Instead of having to use your energy management skill and then quickly swapping back down to hide it, you have the 5 regen going at all times. (again, assuming you can keep the enchantment on)

wheel

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jun 2005

Topeka, Kansas

Tyrian Fo Lyfe [word]

09 Mar 2006 at 21:57 - 15

If players are to take this skill seriously, the recharge needs cut down a LOT more. It's not viable because of its recharge. Its effect when on two monks is fairly good, to be honest. Key word, here, is when. If you look at PnH with its duration cut down, say if it was being removed with fairly decent speed, its numbers are certainly less than stellar. Let's say that PnH stays up for 45 seconds. That's 10 net energy, or .667 pips. Drain Enchantment nearly outpaces PnH being maintained on two monks with them being drained every 45 seconds. It's just not worth it.

Fenix Swiftblade

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2005

Illusion of Competence

R/W

09 Mar 2006 at 22:10 - 16

Right, thats exactly what I was saying. The effects of PnH are really good, but the ability to keep those effects going is really bad. If you can come up with a way to keep PnH going 90% of the time it will be worth it. (but then, you have to decide if what you are doing to keep it going is worth it as well)

I think that ANet should just bring the recharge down to 5 seconds. Theres already a restriction on how many people you can cast it on based on the attacking/damaging/targeting restrictions, so thats not a problem, and the duration vs recharge isn't restricting as it is.

Long story short, I think it's good enough to deserve a spot on the table. (even if it is the worst spot) But thats just my opinion.

Minus Sign

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Feb 2006

Mo/N

09 Mar 2006 at 22:21 - 17

Key Phrase:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenix

assuming you can keep the enchantment on Don't assume that because you can't. Even if its not being self-stripped by CoP, its being torn out by Drain Enchant and other strips. By then the opposition knows you've got it, and they target you for interupt when you cast it next (on self or on other) and then you have no extra pips for 30 seconds for your healers. And remember, it was 45 seconds before+pain in the butt to make it effective (as a 1.98 group pip). That further colors its attempted buff: too little too late for not enough juice.

Monks don't make good group batteries. We tend to be too busy doing other stuff.

30 second recast+possibility of interupt kills P&H as a viable alternative to E.managment in PvP. PvE I love it though.

EDIT: didn't notice this was such a hot topic. 5 second recharge would make it too powerful. Think Smiteball, spamming self and team targetting spells on each other to do massive damage to the opposition with Zealot's. That can be done and makes a nasty lockdown if everyone in the group suddenly has+1 pip. It'd suddenly be on a quantitative measure with pre-nerfed IWAY:

"Come into my agro and let me heal you to death! Muahahahahaha!"

20 to 25 second recharge is a better way to go, and reduce the cast time to 3/4 to reduce chance of interupt. Then it'll see some play PvP.

Edit2: grats; she IS on the table now, lol.

Fenix Swiftblade

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2005

Illusion of Competence

R/W

09 Mar 2006 at 22:37 - 18

It ends when you do damage. Unless you plan to recast it every time you hit the enemy, theres no way you would put this on any type of offensive character. It already has a character limit built into it, the recharge doesn't need to affect it.

The only thing I didn't think of when saying the 5 seconds would work is that the recharge on enchantment removal spells is high, effectively making it basically immune to enchant removal. I think 15 would be a good balance.

icemonkey

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2005

09 Mar 2006 at 22:52 - 19

well you made my mind up insp hex and maybe a drain enchant,

BTW another skill worth actual consideration is power drain, i feel its just as conditional as drain enchant

Minus Sign

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Feb 2006

Mo/N

09 Mar 2006 at 23:03 - 20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenix

It ends when you do damage. My bad. Another little tweak, if I'm not mistaken (used to be attack or cast a spell not targetting an ally).

15 would be better, but maybe a little too fast BECAUSE its a multi-target power regen. I still stick with 20 minimum to prevent exploitive practices and GvG lockdowns. If your group can't kill the other and they guarantee more mana regen than you, they can wear you down on mana, and then start targetting you for death after thy've burned through their spike.

EDIT: but also keep in mind, its 1.98 for 1 source of recharge to two characters. P&H is very rigid in the end, giving .99pip per character as opposed to near twice that if monks self manage

Fenix Swiftblade

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2005

Illusion of Competence

R/W

09 Mar 2006 at 23:19 - 21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

EDIT: but also keep in mind, its 1.98 for 1 source of recharge to two characters. P&H is very rigid in the end, giving .99pip per character as opposed to near twice that if monks self manage
Right, it isn't as much. My point is that it makes up for this by giving the other monks free elite slots. You get your energy management, if it isn't quite as much, AND you get your elite for something besides energy.

I'm certainly not saying it's the best energy management skill out there, far from it. I'm only saying that it is another option, and should be presented in the table here.

Minus Sign

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Feb 2006

Mo/N

09 Mar 2006 at 23:29 - 22

And I disagree. remember, this thread is about viable energy solutions we have now, not those that will be viable when Anet decides to un-nerf them. P&H still has too much cost/issues/ifs, ands, and buts to make it useful in groups...yet. When Anet does un-nerf it, you're darn right it should be up there with the rest. Right now? Its not ready.

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

09 Mar 2006 at 23:32 - 23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenix

0.99 pips versus the 1.57 or 1.71 of EDrain or OoB(adjusted)?

Assuming 14 Divine Favor and an enchanting part, Peace and Harmony is .85 pips. For your elite slot that's a pretty good description of complete trash.

Quote: Originally Posted by Fenix The things that I think save the skill from being complete trash are that it's linked to Divine Favor, which as a monk you'll have anyway, and that it can be cast on others. You aren't neccessarily going to have Divine Favor anyway, particularly if you're a healer and don't benefit tremendously from it. The efficiency does continue to drop if you don't have a high Divine Favor spec (at 10 Divine Favor it drops to .82 pips with an enchanting part).

Maintaining the spell on multiple people is where the value of Peace and Harmony is, but remember that if you're doing that you aren't getting a tremendous benefit out of it yourself. At 14 DF you're netting 2.56 pips out of Peace and Harmony if you maintain it on an entire 3 monk backline, but the caster is only getting .56 pips for himself.

Quote: Originally Posted by Fenix Also, the other monks in your party can be free to choose non-energy management elite skills. I don't think so. A pip from Peace and Harmony is on the equivilent of a non-elite emanagement skill. It'd be a nice supplement alongside some other non-elite choices, or something that'd help with an efficiency elite like Word, but if you have booners on your team a Peace and Harmony is not going to be sufficient to keep them running. Hell a single Energy Drain isn't enough to keep a booner happy, he needs another energy skill as well.

Quote: Originally Posted by Fenix The energy management provided by PnH isn't the main reason why it's never used, it's the difficulty in using it well. If it couldn't be removed, or had a very fast recharge, I think it would see quite a lot of play. That's not a difficult skill to use well. A skill that's hard to use well is Gale, or Blackout. Something that requires good field awareness and excellent timing to be effective, that's difficult to use well. Peace and Harmony? It's brainless to use (which is why n00bs like it to maintain on themselves), but inflexible and fragile. It absolutely needs to be maintained on an entire 3 monk backline to be effective, and its efficiency gets destroyed by removal. I really don't know why the recharge is as long as it is, given how fragile the marginal effectiveness of the skill is already.

Quote: Originally Posted by Fenix

Roughly 3 Energy Pips from one skill thats very difficult to use. The only question is, Is "very difficult" actually "immpossible". It's 2.5 pips, roughly, and yes, against all but the most unprepared and retarded teams it is impossible to get that entire benefit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenix

Right, thats exactly what I was saying. The effects of PnH are really good, but the ability to keep those effects going is really bad. If you can come up with a way to keep PnH going 90% of the time it will be worth it. Nah, the effect of Peace and Harmony is forgettable, and it's fragile. It needs at least 200% uptime to even be worth looking at, at I'd want around 300% uptime before I'd seriously consider running it. 90% uptime Peace and Harmony is outclassed by virtually every non-elite energy management skill in the game, let alone the elite ones.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenix

I think that ANet should just bring the recharge down to 5 seconds. Theres already a restriction on how many people you can cast it on based on the attacking/damaging/targeting restrictions, so thats not a problem, and the duration vs recharge isn't restricting as it is. Yeah, dropping the recharge down that low still wouldn't make the skill good but it'd at least make it marginally interesting. The thing to remember is that if you're recasting Peace and Harmony the skill is awful energy management. But if the recast is low you could at least force it onto other characters even if you wouldn't benefit from it yourself. Say, a bonder with Blessed Signet could force Peace and Harmony onto the other two monks in a 3-backline even if he'd very likely get no benefit out of it himself.

It'd probably see play in some gimmick Hall of Heroes grief build with 7-8 monks, too. Maybe they'd have to balance the recharge against that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fenix

The only thing I didn't think of when saying the 5 seconds would work is that the recharge on enchantment removal spells is high, effectively making it basically immune to enchant removal. I think 15 would be a good balance. Even on a 5 second recharge Peace and Harmony has its efficiency destroyed by a single Drain Enchantment, since each recast still costs 5 energy to put back up. It'd be enough that the caster of Peace and Harmony wouldn't see much, if any benefit from the enchantment at all in the face of removal, at least in a 3-backline. I don't think that being immune to enchant removal is something that's particularly dangerous, given the marginal effect of the spell already.

Again the danger of a really short recharge is some gimmick Hall griefing build with a ton of monks where this skill could go nuts. If you're really afraid of that set the recharge to 10-15s, it wouldn't hurt the 'normal' use of the skill at all really. If you're not, you could take the recharge off entirely and it wouldn't have much effect - other than making it a great cover enchantment if that's what you're into.

Peace,
-CxE

Maxiemonster

There is no spoon.

Join Date: Jun 2005

Netherlands

Mo/

09 Mar 2006 at 23:34 - 24

Energy Drain is pretty nice too, but I don't plan on using this, since I just sold a Cane that's perfect for Energy Drain, and I don't want to feel sorry xD

P&H isn't worth it when running 2 Monks. If an 8 man team is running 3 Monk though, 1 with P&H, and 2 with MoR, it's quite possible. The MoR Monks just get P&H, and cover it with MoR, but since the recharge times are so different, this'll be hard to time.

OOB is just hopeless, which is a shame, I loved that skill!

MoR or Energy Drain.. Not sure. Energy Drain also works well with Skill recharge, MoR doesn't. Energy Drain with 40% Skill recharge pretty much owns too, which I guess will be best in the end.

Re:tired

Join Date: Nov 2005

10 Mar 2006 at 00:17 - 25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxiemonster

MoR or Energy Drain.. Not sure. Energy Drain also works well with Skill recharge, MoR doesn't. Energy Drain with 40% Skill recharge pretty much owns too, which I guess will be best in the end. There is absolutely no choice, in my opinion.

This metagame seems to have a very strong trend for Surge/Burn/SoW mesmers. MoR is weak very weak to E-denial. I will try and explain why.

A monk with a base energy of 48 dies. The monk gets ressed with a sig. Now he has 12 energy to spend.

- The monk who takes MoR spends 10 energy casting that, and is now on 2 energy. In 20 seconds time he will get a return. In 20 seconds it might be too late.

- The monk who took Energy Drain spends 5 energy casting that, and is now on 23 energy. All of a sudden he can throw out a few spells and ease things up.

(excluding energy regenerated naturally before the cast completed)

The same goes for edenial mesmers, but worse. A good dom mesmer will shatter/drain your MoR, then slam your energy bar down to 0. Obviously at this point you would have swapped down to your negative energy set. The monk with ED can switch up and gain 16 energy straight up. The monk with MoR just digs himself deeper by spending the 10 energy to cast it, and will be even more screwed on energy for 20 seconds.

Not to mention you can be messed up with enchant stripping, including CoPing to remove hexes when you may not actually want the energy from MoR yet. ED is a straight up energy gain like OoB. It's slightly conditional in that you need to find someone who will probably have energy to drain, but that really isn't difficult. They have an Ether Prod air ele? Theres your target. A Necro with OoB? Theres your target... And so on. Alternatively, you can make yourself offensively usefull by draining the opposing monks.

Hell, suppose you have two opposing monks, one with ED and one with MoR. If the one with ED can consistantly drain the opposing monk, then ED comes out very much on top. You will actually be getting more energy than the MoR monk, everything included. And you don't get the absolutely horrendous instability of it.

So basicly, MoR is weaksauce. The slightly increased energy gain in the statistics says very little about how it works in practice.

Zhou Feng

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

CATS

Mo/Me

10 Mar 2006 at 00:40 - 26

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

There is absolutely no choice, in my opinion.

This metagame seems to have a very strong trend for Surge/Burn/SoW mesmers. MoR is weak very weak to E-denial. I will try and explain why.

A monk with a base energy of 48 dies. The monk gets ressed with a sig. Now he has 12 energy to spend.

- The monk who takes MoR spends 10 energy casting that, and is now on 2 energy. In 20 seconds time he will get a return. In 20 seconds it might be too late.

- The monk who took Energy Drain spends 5 energy casting that, and is now on 23 energy. All of a sudden he can throw out a few spells and ease things up.

(excluding energy regenerated naturally before the cast completed)

The same goes for edenial mesmers, but worse. A good dom mesmer will shatter/drain your MoR, then slam your energy bar down to 0. Obviously at this point you would have swapped down to your negative energy set. The monk with ED can switch up and gain 16 energy straight up. The monk with MoR just digs himself deeper by spending the 10 energy to cast it, and will be even more screwed on energy for 20 seconds.

Not to mention you can be messed up with enchant stripping, including CoPing to remove hexes when you may not actually want the energy from MoR yet. ED is a straight up energy gain like OoB. It's slightly conditional in that you need to find someone who will probably have energy to drain, but that really isn't difficult. They have an Ether Prod air ele? Theres your target. A Necro with OoB? Theres your target... And so on. Alternatively, you can make yourself offensively usefull by draining the opposing monks.

Hell, suppose you have two opposing monks, one with ED and one with MoR. If the one with ED can consistantly drain the opposing monk, then ED comes out very much on top. You will actually be getting more energy than the MoR monk, everything included. And you don't get the absolutely horrendous instability of it.

So basicly, MoR is weaksauce. The slightly increased energy gain in the statistics says very little about how it works in practice. The only real use of MoR is with CoP and usually with prot monks also running Channeling, Divine Boon and maybe Inspired Hex. Whichever the case MoR is very conditional compared to E Drain. So yeah I agree. Still E Drain's recharge is kind of slow so that about the only thing MoR has. But its cheaper. It can't be used fully offensively though because you only get a slight E Drain on target every 25 seconds.

Re:tired

Join Date: Nov 2005

10 Mar 2006 at 00:44 - 27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zhou Feng

The only real use of MoR is with CoP

I honestly don't like the CoP/MoR combo. So you have an extra enchant to get benefit from? CoPing off your MoR also screws up your energy management. More trouble than it is worth. You should have more than enough enchantments as it is to remove stacks, especially with Holy Veil interacting so well with CoP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zhou Feng

and usually with prot monks also running Channeling, Channeling is only decent in HA, not a skill I care about. When I talk about serious PvP, I mean GvG. I am probably biased, but what the hell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zhou Feng

Divine Boon and maybe Inspired Hex. Whichever the case MoR is very conditional compared to E Drain. So yeah I agree. Still E Drain's recharge is kind of slow so that about the only thing MoR has. But its cheaper. It can't be used fully offensively though because you only get a slight E Drain on target every 25 seconds. Don't forget you can run dual 20% recharge mods and benefit with ED, you can't with MoR.

Greedy Gus

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Feb 2006

Striking Distance

10 Mar 2006 at 01:45 - 28

Basically, even after the update, the only place I would seriously consider putting P&H is on a fire-and-forget type support monk flag runner, who can keep it on himself and the other 2 monks. I wrote a GvG build right after the update that utilized this, though he also maintained blessed aura for 125 second P&H and also utilized other enchantments. It worked out ok but still probably not as effective as a fully effective flag runner in most builds.

Fenix Swiftblade

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2005

Illusion of Competence

R/W

10 Mar 2006 at 01:51 - 29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Assuming 14 Divine Favor and an enchanting part, Peace and Harmony is .85 pips. For your elite slot that's a pretty good description of complete trash.

My mistake. That does bring everything down a lot. The point of PnH is to cast on three monks, but I'll get to that when you do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign You aren't neccessarily going to have Divine Favor anyway, particularly if you're a healer and don't benefit tremendously from it. The efficiency does continue to drop if you don't have a high Divine Favor spec (at 10 Divine Favor it drops to .82 pips with an enchanting part).

I guess my point here was that you don't need to select a secondary simply for energy management.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Maintaining the spell on multiple people is where the value of Peace and Harmony is, but remember that if you're doing that you aren't getting a tremendous benefit out of it yourself. At 14 DF you're netting 2.56 pips out of Peace and Harmony if you maintain it on an entire 3 monk backline, but the caster is only getting .56 pips for himself.

Good point, but 2.56 pips from one skill isn't nothing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I don't think so. A pip from Peace and Harmony is on the equivilent of a non-elite emanagement skill. It'd be a nice supplement alongside some other non-elite choices, or something that'd help with an efficiency elite like Word, but if you have booners on your team a Peace and Harmony is not going to be sufficient to keep them running. Hell a single Energy Drain isn't enough to keep a booner happy, he needs another energy skill as well. Right, I don't think this skill will ever see GvG play, because most of the time you'll have only 2 monks, and those not suited for PnH anyway. It would only ever be run in a 3 monk team, in which all 3 monks will be within spell casting distance of each other, in other words, in HoH. But if the other two monks bring a non-elite energy management skill (completely destroying my point about freeing up you secondary, but still) they still have a free elite slot.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ensign That's not a difficult skill to use well. A skill that's hard to use well is Gale, or Blackout. Something that requires good field awareness and excellent timing to be effective, that's difficult to use well. Peace and Harmony? It's brainless to use (which is why n00bs like it to maintain on themselves), but inflexible and fragile. It absolutely needs to be maintained on an entire 3 monk backline to be effective, and its efficiency gets destroyed by removal. I really don't know why the recharge is as long as it is, given how fragile the marginal effectiveness of the skill is already. Poor choice of words on my part, but my point still stands when presented correctly. Just replace "difficult to use well" with "inflexible and fragile" as you said. The point was the return energy (which I thought was higher than it is (something that wouldn't have happened if the numbers for Peace and Harmony were in the table)) isn't the weakness of the skill.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ensign It's 2.5 pips, roughly, and yes, against all but the most unprepared and retarded teams it is impossible to get that entire benefit. (This is question is NOT rhetorical) You don't think that having a few quick refreshing party wide enchantments would protect it? (or wouldn't be worth it?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Nah, the effect of Peace and Harmony is forgettable, and it's fragile. It needs at least 200% uptime to even be worth looking at, at I'd want around 300% uptime before I'd seriously consider running it. 90% uptime Peace and Harmony is outclassed by virtually every non-elite energy management skill in the game, let alone the elite ones. When you say you want 300% uptime does that mean 100% uptime on three people, 100% uptime at 3 times the power, or what? The fragile part is what I was saying, and if by 300% uptime you mean 3 people having it on for the entire duration, then thats what I'm saying as well. With the regen being .85 and not .99 as I thought, yeah, 90% isn't much at all either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Yeah, dropping the recharge down that low still wouldn't make the skill good but it'd at least make it marginally interesting. The thing to remember is that if you're recasting Peace and Harmony the skill is awful energy management. But if the recast is low you could at least force it onto other characters even if you wouldn't benefit from it yourself. Say, a bonder with Blessed Signet could force Peace and Harmony onto the other two monks in a 3-backline even if he'd very likely get no benefit out of it himself. That is 2 regen which is competitive, but thats assuming that it can both be kept on the targets, and the guy putting it on the other two can afford it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

It'd probably see play in some gimmick Hall of Heroes grief build with 7-8 monks, too. Maybe they'd have to balance the recharge against that. If by grief build you just mean a team that goes in and hopes the other team will leave because they don't die, then a super-recharge PnH isn't really necessary, 8 solid monks could do that now anyway. With the new rules on PnH, it is physically impossible to kill something while keeping the effects.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Even on a 5 second recharge Peace and Harmony has its efficiency destroyed by a single Drain Enchantment, since each recast still costs 5 energy to put back up. It'd be enough that the caster of Peace and Harmony wouldn't see much, if any benefit from the enchantment at all in the face of removal, at least in a 3-backline. I don't think that being immune to enchant removal is something that's particularly dangerous, given the marginal effect of the spell already. Good point.

Again, I think that even the way it is now, a decent 3 monk backline can be made in which PnH is a good choice for one of the characters. It wont be the best build out there, and it will be very specific, but it will be good, and for the one guy there wont be a better elite skill to choose.

But then, why run something that could be made better... Maybe I should just wait for the true un-nerf of Peace and Harmony to start lobbying for it to be on an energy management option table :-/

Thom

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2005

10 Mar 2006 at 03:23 - 30

Generally PaH is useless, I think Charles and I had this discussion before release. The argument for PaH is the synergy with DF and the possible multiple use, but I can think of a situation where you can't get better use elsewhere. PaH on a booner keeps you out of a secondary completely which allows 16/13 or something. You are using enough enchants at this point that you can cover at will, so removal is less of an issue (relatively). If you use CoP you have the nice heal, but lose your energy management--kind of the anti-Recall. In an edrain environment, recharge can be more useful then occasional bumps even when you are hiding your energy. If you are playing a double booner backline with some battery assistance, I could argue that one of your booners distributing PaH would be worth consideration. Also would marginally useful in a 3 monk setup on a bonder as Charles mentioned.

That was the pro PaH argument. I don't run it and I don't think I'd ever actually attempt playing it seriously. It is a skill that must be built around and is really not worth building around (and remains useless). It is just lame that my only intereting use for the skill is to cover another skill(boon) or use it to take off later (CoP).

People focus to much on the "wrong" side of energy management, mostly because regaining energy is easier to prep for. While that is important, I think people would make more headway if they learned to heal in a more energy efficient manner. Obviously your top guilds/players do this quite well, but Joe Monk (and your friend Thom) really need practice pacing energy use. Example: when your entire team walks into some sort of AoE or disease, instead of spamming baby heals wait for your other monk carrying HP/Martyr; you'll find you have more energy once the "real" battle begins.

SilasTheGreat

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Sep 2005

Bring Back the Rifts

Mo/

10 Mar 2006 at 06:48 - 31

Word of Healing > All energy management elites (besides ether prodigy)

wheel

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jun 2005

Topeka, Kansas

Tyrian Fo Lyfe [word]

10 Mar 2006 at 07:50 - 32

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilasTheGreat

Word of Healing > All energy management elites (besides ether prodigy) Apples > Oranges

Rukmedes

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2005

Mo/W

10 Mar 2006 at 08:00 - 33

Word of healing is f*cking amazing.

The part I like about it is that you can take Heal party

Heal party on a monk with 14+ Healing Prayers is amazing, it's a party wide WoH.

johnactor

Academy Page

Join Date: Feb 2006

Mo/Me

10 Mar 2006 at 09:34 - 34

"A good dom mesmer will shatter/drain your MoR, then slam your energy bar down to 0. Obviously at this point you would have swapped down to your negative energy set."

noob questions if I may, what is a negative energy set? How does that work?

wheel

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jun 2005

Topeka, Kansas

Tyrian Fo Lyfe [word]

10 Mar 2006 at 09:42 - 35

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnactor

Read this thread for details. In particular, these posts:
http://guildwarsguru.com/forum/showp...12&postcount=1
http://guildwarsguru.com/forum/showp...05&postcount=7
http://guildwarsguru.com/forum/showp...3&postcount=18

Schorny

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2005