Are primary monks -really- that necessary?

Its situations like that convince some PvPers that PvEers are noobs (although it isn't true).

E/Mo heal party spammer are considered in PvP to be half healers same with a N/Mo (well least to me).

But ya you need a primary monk to be successful. Well least in balanced teams. You guys have b/p teams don't you? I don't see why you can't use other kinds of unique build like PvP has. I can see Minion Factory working in PvE .

Don't be fooled, they are in those areas too :0

I've seen people leave Great Northern Wall becuase their group had either no monks or level 3s

I freakin soloed that with my W/R...and the next two missions aswell..

Count the monks :P And we were doing skill capping, so most have 2 SoC on their bars (at least to start out with - and Hundred Blades+Eviscerate don't help my ranger much while trapping). Monks aren't needed, teamwork is.

lol, I once did Hells Precipice with an all warrior team. Most were W/Mo and some were W/R, W/x. I thought the whole thing was going to be disasterous, but we all pulled through, not really dying at all, except maybe once or twice, but once we plopped back into droks, we all laughed for a while. It was fun.

Damage prevention is almost always superior to healing. If you rely on healing, once something goes wrong someone dies. People think they can go faster through the mission if they specialize in damage and bring 2 monks to heal. However, 6 people doing damage and 2 monks doing no damage at all is not faster than 8 people who do damage, but have a healing or protection spell.

Also, most of the time, you won't need all 8 skills to do maximal damage. Most people only use 3-4 skills as their main source of damage. I am a big fan of Wa/Me stance tankers, since the only way they can die is if they are spiked by heavy armor ignoring spells (Necro/Me spells, or degen), and even then it's hard to die if I constantly cast healing signet (And I am still tanking while I am healing). Also, late in the game, I don't understand why Mesmers are so undervalued. Many enemy groups use hexes, long cast time spells, and enchantments. Shatter hex and inspired hex allows a Mes to do massive AoE (comparable to some of the stronger Elementalist spells if you consider that Shatter is armor ignoring) and have near unlimited energy. Also, hex removal is just as important as healing. A lot of people don't seem to understand that hexes like phantasm, life transfer, siphon life, etc easily does well over 100 damage a cast if it's not removed. Sure the damage is not instant, but if battle lasts more than 30 seconds (usually the case at areas where PuGs fail), it's damage that needs to be healed.

Are they necessary? Probably not, but the better question is this...

Is it easier to find one to three people that can keep an entire team alive or an entire team that can all keep themselves alive?

Every class in the game has some form of damage reduction, damage mitigation or flat-out healing capabilities. Finding 8 people that can work together to eliminate the need for one monk is much harder than finding the one guy to keep you knuckleheads alive.

No, monks are not necessary, but someone in the group should be playing defensively. The fact is, most PUGs don't bother to play defensively, they've always had monks to back them up. What's worse, it works great and it's nearly retard proof. I've been on monkless teams, and it's a lot of fun at times, but don't tell me your sphincter doesn't tighten up a bit when you're down to 20% health and you're spending 3 seconds casting troll unguent.

Which brings me to another point. As a monk, I actually sometimes get annoyed when people use their self heal. I can usually heal more than 50% health in one shot for a very long time thanks to proper energy management. If there is time to heal someone, they are healed. All to often those popular self heals go wasted and hurt the group from the time, energy, and space on the skillbar needed for them.

If you have a well made team who actually knows what they are doing, then no, you can get by without primary monks. However, if you join the average pug with whammos with the IQ of the hammer that they are wielding... then yes, primary monks are almost essential.

If you truly wanted to rid yourself of being dependant on the monk then try without even a secondary.

There is no way a N/Mo is better than a primary Monk in any cases.I think for 1 week all Monks should just stay offline and lets see how groups can get through without them.Then you will never see a mission get done and Eles have poor self heals as well as Mesmurs.

Player 1: We need a monk.
Player 2: Than invite one!
Player 3: Without a monk, I'll leave!
Player 4: Wait. I telephoned a friend.
Player 5: I'll wait for that.
Player 6: I second that.

Half hour later:

Player 7: Yay, we have monk! Is everybody ready?
Monk: "What, no warrior! I am out! Good luck all!"

I want that in my signature

as long as you are talking about pve which it seems you all are then monks are as unneeded as all other classes. pve is easy. thirsty river with no monks? done it. and i don't seen any places a monk is required in order to complete a mission

I've completed plenty of missions forming groups without monks. I've had 2 me/mo once. Who needs when the occaisional fast cast healing works better.

In alot of mission, if they only have 1 healer and he/she is e/mo or n/mo, it is actually still fine if you tell everyone of your team to bring at least 1 self healing skill.

This is more like a psychological problem than actual game problem. Unfortunately, not as many as you think who play guildwars also visit forum =(

I tend to agree that if you have the right teamwork or self healing set-up, alot of tiems you won't need Monks. (Although having one around is always nice if you find yourself in a jam)


In my opinion it's the way some people play that make heavy monk parties necesary. Such as, Warriors constantly using frenzy when in the middle of Hydras, or Fire Eles running into a group of mob to use FlameBurst. It's not a problem if you have a monk or two on the backline to keep you alive. But if you're using a N/Mo or E/Mo or even Me/Mo as a mian healer it's hard to get people to understand to maybe hold off a bit on the close ranger AOEs or to use a different stance while fighting.

A while ago I got sick of trying to find a group for Last Day Dawns that would appreciate a mesmer, so I changed to /mo and went all out as a Fast Cast Healer.

It worked great. I can't remember for sure now but I think that it ended up being me and 2 warriors who finished it. We may have also had a ranger but I can't remember anymore.


EDIT:

I ran Mantra of Recall and never had any energy problems. It made it possible for me to heal past the loss of divine favor. Was it better than a primary monk? Probably not, but it worked just fine and we finished.

Is a primary monk really necessary? No. Is it easier? Yes.

Btw, how would one handle UW without a primary monk? I'm not talking about just a smite run, but actually clearing out the place. Would that work without monk?

This is the cutscene at the end of hells done with only one monk. I'm not anyone in there, I think it was my friend who got banned from here for a while who was monking. You just need to be smart when you have limited resources (one guy never loaded and a mes quit right after she found out he wouldn't load)

Honestly, I'd be hard-pressed to need a third hand to use counting how many times I've teamed with a monk primary - I guess it just shows how hot a commodity Mo/x are when I've been in a PUG with at most 10 or 12 monks.

Despite that, myself and my regular teammates have done pretty well for ourselves in this game by playing with determination and thorough thoughtfulness. Sure, the frequent absence of primary monks in my parties does result in receiving the smackdown more often than I'd like, but every party wipe is a learning experience. I'd say that monks are just as necessary as any other class is in this game - even Mesmers O_O (Because channeling the true might of the Mesmer class is just awesome). Monk primaries are designed to heal better than any other character in the game, and they do.

The question of this thread is, "are primary monks -really- that necessary?" Would everything be FUBAR if monks went on strike? Some people have already as much as said "yes", but I don't think so. Would we all be totally screwed if there were no more warrior primaries to tank for us? Rangers and geomancers, at least, could fill that gap; I won't get into whether or not they could do it as effectively as a W/x, but the point is they can do it well enough to accomodate the party.

So are primary monks better equipped to heal, out of the six professions currently available? Yes. Are they necessary to a party, a "must" to perform in Guild Wars? No. The same could really be said of any class.

In a word, no.

In detail, it depends on the overall composition of your group. A well-balanced group that brings wards, wells, interrupts, knows how to use hexes (not all of them have to deal damage to be effective), knows how to negate hexes and enchantments, interrupts (said again for emphasis), can easily get by with one Monk primary and a back-up N/Mo, E/Mo, or Me/Mo.

Playing a healer in this game is all too often like playing whack-a-mole. When only one or two people are taking enough damage to warrant healing, a N/Mo, E/Mo, or Me/Mo is more than capable of handling it, with 10-12 attribute. And still bringing something beyond just healing to the group.

Quoted for truth.

This ^^ is the most intelligent thing i've read in this thread so far ... the advantage to having monks in your party is not that they are "necessary" for any successful party, but they are your safeguard ... your "buffer", if you will, from failure. Something goes horribly wrong and you begin to take an absurd amount of damage? Your heals/stances are being interrupted/de-stanced? These are the times when monks are your friends.

A highly-skilled and cooperative team can do almost anything with any mix of characters sans-monk.

A reasonably skilled team can do well with one monk

A mediocre team can finish a mission with 2 monks

etc, i'm sure you get the point.

I was in an absolutely AWFUL PUG in the Ring of Fire mish last night, and we had a 3 monks. 2 people ragequit before we got to the gate, and we're left with 2 W primaries and a R/E (who kept using apply poison, then barrage ... and would cast healing spring at random intervals and in mid-combat with no stance ... ) anyway ...

It was all the THREE of us could do to keep the THREE of them alive. That's a 1:1 healing ratio. THAT is a horrible pug. Our DPS was pathetic, it took upwards of 4-5 minutes to kill any of the Mursaat bosses.

Moral of the story? I did the same mission later with guildies (looking for some skill captures) with just me monking, and we pretty much rolled over the Mursaat like a freight train.

Experienced party > monks > idiots

Ether Feast is really bad, but Aura of Restoration is arguably worse. Kind of a close contest between the two, in a way.

Anyway, while monks are certainly helpful, I must agree that they aren't always necessary. I once was carrying healing stuff on my necro when doing Dragon's Lair. I think it was Orison, Breeze, and Other. Anyway, the monk we had with us either left or dropped. We were still able to complete the mission despite that, with my necro playing monk. Probably helped that I've had experience monking. Also, Well of Blood is very handy in some zones.

Primary Monking is my favorite profession.

That being said, it seems the same folks who insist on having monks 24/7 are the same people who think that having a monk on the team means they can run around recklessly and ignore their health. Of course, when they die they often blame the monk ...

As a primary monk I appreciate folks who can do some self-heals. That lets me help out with more Protection skills, etc.

uw- 2 man trap

Monk primary is only mandatory for one of two reasons:

1) You're a protector for the group. Being able to spam Reversal of Fortune is nothing compared to being able to spam Reversal of Fortune and being able to heal while doing it.

2) You are either the only monk or the only healer in the group, and you're in a difficult area that makes it exceedingly difficult for party members to keep themselves alive without any help of skills designed purely to keep people alive... and still continue. In this case, you need the runes to boost your attributes (even a little -- a little goes a long way).

People are asking the wrong questions here. First off PvE is easy enough to do with SOC and a dropped player (even "high level" areas). If you know what you are doing you can do most any area with any set of restrictions. If you want to prove this, post a contest with reasonable (but tough) restrictions and someone will have a video posted. (Ex: 8 Me/* no Mo secondaries clear major Underworld quests; silly but doable). Guild wars PvE has yet to test the limits of possiblity. So clearly, zero monk builds are feasible.

The more interesting question is: "Why do people tend to use monks over self healing?" As stated, monks are the best healers. If a team of 8 carried 2 self heals a peice you now have 25% of your bars devoted to defense. One monk totally devoted to damage control is 12.5% healing. I would guess that you'd really want a bar and a half devoted to defense in most pve areas (~19% defense). Not only can you get away with fewer total heals, you will be more efficient in both attacking and healing if you divide the labor.

PvP is a bit different because hiding healing and soloing are strategically important. I am hardpressed to find a location which benefits from a single party member soloing (one of the jungle missions with gem runners is much easier split party). Once you get above 3 or 4 man groups in PvE, it seems that a healer slot is just more efficient then 4+ trying to maintain health bars, hexes, conditions and damage.

EDIT: I personally find it insulting when I a monk in a PUG and some Whammo starts casting healing hands or rangers start troll ungenting with whirling defenses. I have 5 skills on my bar with are more efficient then troll or heal sig and I am well aware of your current health level.

While I understand where you're coming from, a warriors job is to keep aggro away from the casters, and that means (with bad pugs in mind) the need to sprint into enemy monsters and be temporarily out of the monks range, in which case, healing sig is a wonderful addition to the skill bar.

But I AM glad that monks like you exist, cause I'd much rather trust the monk on the team to heal me than having to look at my own health bar.

And my biggest thanks go to the monk who kept my mesmer up while I was tanking (our warrior dropped earlier) at Elona yesterday.

[QUOTE=Thom
EDIT: I personally find it insulting when I a monk in a PUG and some Whammo starts casting healing hands or rangers start troll ungenting with whirling defenses. I have 5 skills on my bar with are more efficient then troll or heal sig and I am well aware of your current health level.[/QUOTE]

You should be thanking them. People bring self heal to reduce pressure on a monk. If there are 8 players on a team and 2 monks, so each monk is responsible for roughly 4 players including themselves. If the mob broke aggro and is in your backline the soft casters will quickly eat up your limited energy. So the W and R self heals are taking pressure off you they are taking pressure off the whole team. (If the W has a full aggro and heal sigs it is because he is dumb and didn't read the skill description of heal sig).

As for primary monk, sure you can team farm or solo farm lots of things without monks, but divine favor may be the best primary attribute in the game.

Soul reaping: In theory you always have lots of energy, however, after 700 hours on a necro I would say that it isn't mind blowing. You often pump energy into a full bar or run dry waiting for a new corpse to appear. It is nice to have built in energy management, but it doesn't make your reserves endless (assuming you are not spirit spamming).

Strength: Sucks in practice, love the skills. Lots of good utility and power skills, not blowing me away.

Fast casting: Fun, friendly, and frenzied. However, it is good for keeping long casts managed, some spiking applications, and easier interrupts. It will not alone win any mission or GvG or allow you to last longer over time like divine favor.

Expertise: Great really. I love building in energy management, but it doesn't make you do more dps (except over very long time frames). Therefore, it is trumped by divine's heals per second (read on).

Energy storage: Overrated on all levels. Sure it lets you worry less about exhaustion, but what sane person would ever put this attribute over 12? Makes you wonder how good it is then...

Divine Favor: This is the best energy management skill in the game even trumping expertise. While it might not seem like a lot, it is the monks answer to opponents who try to overload on damage AND pressure them over time. It is both an immediate boost and acts as many free heals over time. Pressure offense is based around stretching this energy to its limit to win. The reason E/mo's spam heal party is because 8 players healed for 50 is 400 for 15 energy is efficient, but it doesn't mean that this can be the only healing on a team or it would be. Monks can effectively manage the health of a large group cheaply because divine favor adds a built in free heal on each cast. This more bang for the buck makes the divine favor powerful

Lets give a specific example:
Necro with 16 blood and 9 soul reaping versus a Monk with 16 healing and 9 divine (a low divine and a high heal, but you get the idea). Find ANY skill on the necro blood line that can beat the orison of healing in an energy used versus cost to cast. ONE. Can't? It is because of divine favor makes that mere 5 energy in this set up jump from 24.3 hp per sec to 34 hp per sec (heal/cast time +recharge). Heck, try an elite like life transfer. At a 22 second combined cast and recharge that -8 degen damage for 12 seconds comes to a pathetic 8.72 dps (192 damage isn't so great when the recharge is slow) while still at a higher energy cost. The necro runs out of energy first and soul reaping never comes into play, therefore pressure in not created effective

Ok ok, Necros aren't the paragon of dps, but ele's with air spike are loved for their punching power right? (I won't go into W because too many variables could be considered and when you stop comparing energy and cast times this gets into questionable ways to work the math out) Lightening orb into lightening strike into enervating charge is a popular combo (lets say 16 air even) and now you are making this more real to the game right? Now you are casting in a rotating cycle where you cast the three in a combo for over 4 seconds for a total of 212 damage making a fat 53 dps for 30 energy. Not bad since we aren't factoring in recharge and we are considering this a spike situation. Since this is a thread about if monk primaries are necessary lets compare a X/Mo 's ability to resist this and Mo/X's similar ability.

X/Mo maxs out his heal at 12 (whatever primary attribute at 9) and casts "heal other" once for 151. Not bad really for 10 energy, pretty close to the ele.

Mo/X with same amount of attribute points comes to 16 healing and divine 9 and casts heal other for a total of 219 healed. For ten energy a primary monk can beat a 30 energy ele spike and even if you factor in the ele starts with higher energy points, the monk will not die from this....ever. Sure the X/Mo could stand up ok, but he can't stand up like the primary could.

People are bitching in this forum and others about classes and love or hate because they play in pugs. My answer is stop. There is not one mission in the game you can't beat with hench (some can be frustrating with hench, but it can be done). Considering many guildwars players are friendly and since you already have something in common there is no reason not to be social and find people to play with who won't grief you because you did whatever.