Idea: Block anyone who hasn't Ascended from entering Droknar's Forge

Simple idea, and I'm sure its been talked about in the past.

Really I'm seeing an increasing number of people who are first time players being run to Droknar's Forge and then having no idea what to do, where to go, and wondering why the level 18 mobs outside keep beating them using high level skills.

The point is I think low level runners to Droknar's should be stopped. But only if its their first character. Sure once you have ascended one character then Droknar's Forge should be opened globally to any new characters you make.

But new characters shouldn't be allowed past the south portal exit from Beacon's Perch, the game should stop them, plain and simple.

This idea people who are running a new character can do so no problem, and newbies will be keep on the normal path through the game.

I'm not a programmer, but would that only entail coding a line (or however many) on a person's account/first character to the Forge to insure they'd have future pre-emptive access?

Crazily enough, it was my mesmer Briallan who got to the Forge first the old-fashioned way........and she's the sixth one to hit lvl 20! I didn't set out specifically to get the 'best' armor (used Desert collectors until I got there); when I touched down at Beacon's if there was a runner doing a practice/test run, I'd tag along just for fun. Not much of that anymore and with good cause.

With so many people now thinking that being run everywhere and through everything is the normal way to play, I'm not sure how many players would be lost altogether. I agree something needs to be done, though. I was in Augury the other day and someone wanted a runner to UW, and yesterday I was in Druid's and someone "needed" a runner to Dragon's Lair!!!!!!

Recently I ready a Guild Wars review (if I remember the link I will post it). In the review, the topic of running was discussed. ANet replied that running was part of the game - if they didn't want people running, they would have nerfed it. I think the best thing to do is to let the noobs get run to Drok's; it's their fault if they ruin the game for themselves and have no idea what to do.

I thought the passes and stuff were for a group high levels to for a challenge to try and get to a place without missions not for whammos and Rhammos (w/mos and r/mos) to run a level 1 to near endgame.

Let them get run if they want. These lvl 1 guys that are going out and getting beat on by the lvl 24 mobs arent making it harder for anyone, are they?
I personally think it's unnecessary to take offence at someone being under level 20 in a certain place. So I have my lvl 12 N/R in Droknars Forge. Why does that bother you so much? It does happen to be my 7th character you know...

All I'm saying is that personally, I find it a tad repetetive to go through ascencion etc again. It's not like I use my necro very often anyway, I much prefer playing an ele.

The Forge, near end-game? Not hardly.

Nearer than the Maguuma or Kryta or even the Crystal Desert, but not end-game.

Also, not all lvl <20 people in droknar got run there from Beacon's. I personally got runned to desert on my monk (note: the monk being my 10th char), and ascended at lvl 7, resulting in me being lvl 14 at Dragon's Lair. I still remember one of the W/Mo's I teamed with asking "monk why are u lvl 14?!".

People who don't listen...
Once again, he mentions to cut off people who are on their first character. I know many people who think the Droknar's Run is part of the game because once they hit Beacon's all they hear is running. Then they go earn an easy 2-3k or even get a free run to Drok's. I myself got run after beating the game with a first character. But many of these people don't know how to play their class properly because they either skipped almost half the game and its lessons or because they are used to tanking low level mobs with their drok's armor.

Glad someone read it and didn't just blindly post.

Yes people who have already ascended on other characters shouldn't be forced to do it again, since it does take a fair amount of time. Basically my idea is that new players should be blocked from running, this means anyone using their first character.

/notsigned

No character who isnt ascended should be let in.
Its why the Ascalon Arena sucks. Everyone takes their second, third or fourth characters, gets run to Droks and f's up the arena for all the first timers.

When I see a level 3 in 15K armor, I get pissed off. I dont care if you've worked hard on your first character and gotten the money for it. It basically is like saying you dont have to even try to work for things on any of your other characters.

To get around the problem mentioned somewhere above about your first character not neccessarily being the first character on your account that ascends, it would be a simple matter to have one boolean variable tied to a players account. By default it is false. When the player hits ascention on any character the variable is changed to true. Never can it be set back to false. If the variable is true, the Drok's run is open. If it's false, the Drok's run is closed off.

The only draw back to this is if you get a second account you will have to run to the desert and get run through ascention once... not a big problem at all.

Edit: Since I didn't exactly make it plain: /signed I think this is a wonderful idea that would prevent new players from having the game ruined for them, while not penalizing older players who don't want to grind anymore. Contrary to what some would like to believe, new players who get a run to Droks aren't often ruining the game for themselves; they're having it ruined for them by more experienced players spamming Beacon's Perch incessantly about runs. If you don't know there's any option besides a Drok's run, how exactly are you supposed to choose to play the game normally?

I was about to suggest what Jenosavel said, but he beat me to it.

I agree wholeheartedly with not allowing first-time characters to do the run, simply because it ruins the game for them (not just the story, but the lessons that levelling up against monsters who can kill you will put in your head). But looking at it the other way as well: there are two ways to get to Droks: the run, or ascending and doing Dragon's Lair. While the longer run is mainly called 'powerlevelling' (in my experience)(since you get them to face their level 20 mirror self, they get a bunch of XP from that, as well as the bonus for ascending), it does require a little more skill -- as you have to defeat your mirror self. While the mirror self isn't necessarily that difficult, it poses a problem for first time characters who haven't used their character to its full ability.
Hence why, in my opinion, the other major reason for getting run to Droknars came about: people who got run from Ascalon to the desert couldn't defeat their mirror, so they wanted better armour (just like the necros who can't stand up to warriors in Ascalon arena).
But even at that, there are so many friken guides on how to beat your mirror self all over the place, making it simple enough for the new players to make cookie-cutter builds and beat him.

So, if you're going to block the Droknar's run, you should probably also look at the longer run. Both affect game experience for new people.

Good point Ristaron. But its getting silly the number of new players who get to Droknar's and are unable to buy the armor or items there. Its a waste of time, and really they shouldn't be there.

/signed

It's bad enough when you've got to worry about experienced players getting to droknar more early than they need to. It's horrible when you've got new players who do the same. Especally in the arenas. Whenever I go into the yak's arena, I assume at least half my matches will be lost because the advantage of them having a runner is too much to overcome.


Here's another thing to stop runners: make armor and maybe weapons level based. You shouldn't get the benefit of max armor and max weapons until you are, say level 16.

IMO theres nothing wrong with low lvl ppl being anywhere. chances are if they gotta run to droks there not noobs. there not hurting anybody, so why bother writing a rant about it?

/not signed


Really think about it. If Anet did not want people going from Beacon Perch to Droknar... why would the path even exist to begin with? Honestly what would be the point of needing a path for those ascended people to go from Droknar to Beacon Perch? They could just map it.

Yeah explain that

"Signet of Massive Approval"

Newbies do not belong in Droks, period.

The idea is a good one, however, I don't think it's your position to "fix people's games so they play them 'the right way'" (I'm absolutely sick of hearing the "right" way to reach forge. Shove it, already.)

However, your idea is of an anti-runner stance, though instead of simply blocking running, you want to block running of people new to the game. And for that, I give a big

/notsigned

we were all newbies at one time and have done noob things.

However I had my first character run to Droknar and every character since then. I've beaten the game, completed every quest and mission I could find (currently working on titan and SF missions however) Did I lose any aspect of the game by getting run? I don't believe I did. I still relied on skill and tactics while clearing the maps knowing FULL well that the best armor does not make one immortal. And everyone who reachs maguma jungles with droknar armor knows it pretty much doesn't matter what you got... poison still hurts like a bitch.

/signed

I like Guild Wars don't get me wrong, but the storyline and cut scenes are nothing to write home about, but I think everyone that does PvE should go thru the game at least once before getting rushed. If your really in to PvE then this shouldn't be a problem, if your not then there's always PvP.


As far as people getting droks armor and going to ascalon arena, I don't see a problem. You don't get fame, you can't win hoh, so it doesn't affect the balance of the true PvP environment. I've taken maxed weapons and droks armor in the ascalon arena, and it wasn't that big a deal. Skill > Items. I earned time in the game with over 1400 hours played, I think you should be able to do what you want in PvE if you've put in your time and played the game. If your new and you think it's not fair, then play random arena in PvP where its more balanced.

People who get run on their 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc characters usually don't do it because they can't beat the mirror. They do it because they either want to try builds they couldn't without skills in the Drok's area (now remedied by the skill trainer update, yippee!), or because they find the mid-game boring and want anything that lets them get through it to the end-game faster.

There is no reason to try and stop all runs. Runs are not the problem, and ANet has said they support runners. However, newbies who think it is the only possible progression of the game are a problem. They get discouraged, think they're aweful players, quit the game, or do any other number of similar things that are completely unneccessary.

This argument has nothing to do with twinkers in the Ascalon Arenas. Level requirements on weapons and armor belong in another thread as they are a completely unrelated thought here. We're not here to bash runners. This thread asks for a way to help newbies from ruining the game for themselves by missing out on a big portion of it. It doesn't ask for a way to stop experienced players from exploiting the Ascalon Arena.

Again, this thread is not about lowbies running to Droks. It's about newbies running to Droks. There's a key difference. While some newbies will have done their homework and know what a Drok's run is, there are an alarming number of them who don't. They get to Beacon's Perch and think that Droknar's Forge must be the next mission town in the story, since it's all anyone is talking about.

If you have a better idea of how to help newbies from being misled into believing they have no choice but to run to Drok's as soon as they hit Beacon's Perch, then by all means share it.

Have you even paid attention in this thread? The OP mentioned nothing about stopping the Drok's run. It's merely looking for a way to prevent newbies from mistakenly running to Drok's under the impression that that's the next step of the story.

Under the suggested changes, all new characters on an account that has already hit ascention at some point would be able to make the run. Those new characters can't map straight to Droks. Please try to understand what you're bashing before you start bashing it.

If you have a better means of preventing new players from being told left, right, and center that Drok's runs are what you do when you get to Beacon's Perch, then please say it. As it stands, however, there are a number of new players who don't even know you can go to Kryta from Beacon's Perch. I've had friends that were ready to stop playing the game because they couldn't run to Drok's themselves (at level 15...? uhh...) and couldn't get a runner who was successful. They had no clue that the next step of the story was to move on to Kryta.

Beacon's Perch is an outpost town. Whenever you're dumped off in an outpost after a mission you have to do a little bit of run-around to get to the next mission town. How are new players, especially those avoiding online spoilers, supposed to know that there's something for them to do besides run to Droknar's? Droknar's Forge is not a very descriptive name, and the only NPC talk within Beacon's Perch itself tells you to head to Kryta. How is one supposed to know that Droknar's Forge isn't in Kryta and the next step of the game?

This problem needs to be addressed for the benefit of new players to the game, but it needs to be done in such a way that it doesn't limit veteran players from skipping ahead if they so choose.

I take it then, that you were one of the newbies that did their homework ahead of time. There are many, however, who don't frequent GW websites and forums, or who actively avoid anything that might contain spoilers. These fellows wouldn't have the benefit you did of knowing what a Droknar's run was ahead of time.

If on your first character you already know what a Droknar's run is, then the most inconvenience this change would present is to make you do a little extra homework and get a run through to the desert. It would only be required once per account, and after that you'd be free to do the Drok's run on as many characters as you'd like.


----

I'd like to go further, and say that an easy way for this to be implemented would be to have a second half of Beacon's Perch in the south. Only players that have ascended once on their account can pass through the portal from the normal Beacon's area to this second area. Drok's runs would be formed in this second area, which would keep the run spam out of the area where new players are looking for groups.

It wouldn't matter if your character was level one. So long as you'd ascended at least one character at some point in time on your account, you'd be permitted into the second half of Beacon's Perch. The only exit into Lornar's Pass would be from this second half of Beacon's Perch. An NPC could be stationed at the entrance to the second half of town to explain to new players why they can't pass the portal.

It wouldn't be difficult to do, as there have already been portals that are passable only to certain characters. When Tombs was still the entrance to the HoH, no PvP character could cross the border out of the Tombs, even though a PvE character could enter and leave as many times as they wish.

It also wouldn't be a new idea. There are already areas which have access limited to ascended characters.

I really haven't seen a good argument against this suggestion.

/half-signed

I think it's very good to prevent these impatient newcomers from getting run to places just because they're extremely bored and such. Still, I would say if such a code were to be implemented, one of your past characters had to have made it to drok's first. I, for one, don't care if someone with a level 20 gets his level 14 run to Drok's, unless it's for extreme mission-skipping. The majority of running is healthy, it's just when it's people who are downright lazy hire runners that I get annoyed. If someone has made it there before and wishes not to go through such travels again, fine by me. Though I would not reccomend frequent runs. I've never hired a runner for anything, except Riverside Province/Cay on my third character and ToA on one character. I ran the desert all on my own...

It is essentially a nets idea not to limit the way you play. though specifically towards grind.

I do not support this suggestion because this game is not about grind. grind is basically subjective. so if i want to skip 90% of pve and anet allows it on my first try thats fine. maybe i need some skills at first but only intend to pvp and don't want to deal with the horrendous premades.

personally i like pve and pvp but other hate pve or pvp. just because people who don't know what they are doing annoy someone doens't mean they cna't be there. you choose how you play the game within the rules they give you.
running is clearly suported at all stages of the game.

I run people from ascalon to sanctum cay all the time. not for money just for amusement. its how i enjoy the game.

don't try to take away someone elses style of play is what i'ms aying.

as for the low level arenas

just for amusement sometime go get a ton of degen and watch them cry. degen doens't give a shit about armor


edit- man i make a ton of typos...

There are a few idiots (not newbs, and I refuse to use the term noob, so like yea) that get themselves run to Drok's. Some can afford the armor, some can't. Either way, yes, they cause trouble.
However, I do not agree that EVERYONE should be blocked. If someone had the skill to run there by themselves, THAT would be an amazing feat. I'm personally of the theory that that's why that path exists- for level 15s to miraculously survive and impress the level 20s that have beaten the game. That is, a way to prove skill...

If I could provide an alternative, I would suggest that, instead. But since I can't come up with anything better.... /signed

The problem isn't with impatient newcomers who are getting run because they're bored. Read people. The problem is with newcomers who aren't even aware there's another place to go from Beacon's besides Droknar's Forge.

If people are going to be lazy and run because they want to, then fine. This fix isn't going to stop them, and that's part of the point. There's no reason to stop people who want to be run. There is reason to stop people who are getting run because they simply don't know there's an alternative.

The proposed change would have very little effect on the way people play the game. It would not force people to grind more. Please stop trying to strawman this suggestion by assuming its simply runner hate. It's not.

The suggested change won't stop runners. It won't stop inexperienced people in end-game areas. It won't stop twinkers in the Ascalon Arena. It's not going to prevent people from playing the game how they want to. What it will do is give newbies a chance to decide for themselves if they want to get run or play the game normally.

I do agree that there needs to be SOMETHING to guide people through the game the "right way". If it's your first time through, you need to go through and learn how to play. Seriously. If you know the game and have beaten it 1+ times already, sure, get a run. But people who have no idea that the left side of the map is even used? They need help.

I guess ANet kinda assumed people would notice that all the NPCs were talking about Kryta, that there's a quest called "To Kryta" for godsakes, and it's got a BIG GREEN ARROW to tell you which way to go...

But for those "other" kinds of folk - you know the guys - I guess they need a little bit more. The game does have a structure, believe it or not. There is a progression! And you're supposed to follow it!

and what about people who have multiple accounts?

They take a tiny bit of extra time to get run through ascention instead, then continue on as they see fit. If that's the only cost for new players to actually be able to form Kryta groups and play the game, then it's definitely worth it in my mind.

If they skip crystal desert and don't ascend, they can't get to Cantha (Factions) if they have a merged account.

I have not have any trouble with running, anet made the game as one of the many ways to play. My objection is Drak Armor in Ascalon Arnea. The reason being what a way to introduce new character to pvp. "Oh how did you own me, I'm new", = "That's easy get ran to Draks and get back" or worse, get turned off from pvp for a long time until friends or guild mates talk them in to trying real.

I personally don't think it's a huge deal. I ran to Drok's my first time through the game. Someone told me the best armor was found in Drok's, so I decided I wanted a run there. Found a free run at Beacon's and off I went. I had played a long time in Ascalon so I was lvl12 or 13 or something when I got run. Didn't have enough money for Droknar armour though. I actually did Ice Caves of Sorrow before I realized that I had skipped half the game.

So I went back to Beacon's and continued on my merry way through the game. I think I turned out fine. I think bad players will just be bad players and good players will be good players in the end. Maybe I'm wrong.

If you hate noobies there, then either just ignore them or dont go there again, its not a problem of them being there of having better armor..My Necro had 15k at lvl 2

firstly i'm not trying to say its about stopping runners. that was a side comment about what i enjoy which is only tangentially related because i run newbies or anyone first time or not. having said that they already have a choice. you aren't going to make impatient people better players by forcing them to do somehting they never want to do the first time.

furthermore it is already apparent that there is more than one way to from beacons. those people can clearly see two loading zones. if they choose not to investigate thats there choice and they have made it. those players that you seem to think this would help must be very inattentive to not realize what they are getting into.

I don't there is a good way to address the issue of people playing games who don't get informed about them. it is up to them. forcing someone to go through the game linearly even once won't fundamentally change what it is about that person that made them not realize running wasn't the only option.

this discussion is more about how to get people who don't care at all about how the game is "supposed to be played" some people really like going into arenas and running in circles. should we institute a rule to keep them form doing it maybe by forcing them to pause every 15 seconds jus tbecause we don't like it?

I say no. only limit a player when you have no other options. and only limit them in the minimum way necessary to ensure game balance.

the only balance issue in this has to do with the low level arenas and honestly that in and of itself doens't constitute enough of GW's population to warrant a change. though it would be interesting to see armor levels put on for ascalon and yaks.

Runs through ascention are already a common thing. Having to get a different kind of run than you first were intending to isn't that big of a deal. You're not forcing them to play any of the content, just to take a different route on their fast-track to Droknar's Forge.

This is a good argument. There are a few problems however. For one, the sheer amount of runner spam that exists in Beacon's Perch limits a new players ability to form/join a group for anything besides Droknars runs. Second, there are quite a few people in Beacon's Perch willing to flame people for even hinting that Kryta is the next step of the game. For new players simply asking questions, it's almost impossible to get a straight answer without a run/anti-run flame war igniting. I've been unfortunate enough to witness this on more than one occassion, usually while waiting for a run myself.

If, rather than limiting the run to ascended characters, ANet wanted to simply give runners another area to spam in so that new players could still have a hope of forming a group without being hassled, then I would be all for it.

It's usually other players who give new players the impression that running is their only option, rather than a lack of curiousity or some personality flaw on the part of the newbie. Rarely will players weight the words of an NPC over the words of a district full of players, especially when the two are in direct contradiction to one another.

I feel that this is a completely tangential argument that's meant to demean me rather than actually argue something. I'm not trying to force other people to play the game one way or another simply because I don't like what they're doing. I merely want newbies to have a chance to experience the game as it was intended, if that's what they want, which the current conditions of Beacon's Perch make harder than one would think.

If limiting the run by an account-specific ascention marker is really as unacceptable to so many people as it appears, then don't limit it by ascention. Merely give runners an area of Beacon's Perch, extend another section of town to the south, so that they can form their groups without interfering with the newbie who just wants to play the game. Better yet, put an NPC at the gateway to this second section of Beacons that explains what a Droknar's run is to the player their first time there before opening the door for them. This way new players could have a clear explanation of what's going on, rather than the always biased and usually heated shouts that answer most questions currently.

I have no intent to demean you, I don't consider it tangential either. I regard your desire to help new players easily move towards the normal path a fine thing. but in essence the argument of my last bit is this.

any change which requires something of this sort, in essence closing sections off which previously were not must be considered in light of what the overall problem is. in this instance it is simply a case of interpretation of intent. I know anet intends to have people able to run the overwhelming majority of the game. so the problem is when you have multiple intents who is to say those people having chosen freely to believe players decide to go south.

I will agree that those flame wars in beacons get silly at times but i believe you overstate it, i've seen 2 in my time which is no guarentee they arne't more frequent but it doesn't take more than 2 seconds to go out each zone and see whats what.

I seem to have sidetracked myself.

I meant to say that my last argument is the source thought process for this sort of suggestion. we are looking at a problem and asking the question is this what we intended originally? is this how we wish to have our game played?

the OP seems to have decided that no it is not how we wish it played, which is fine I simply choose the opposite point that yes this is how it should be.

it is a small version of the overall issue of freedom in games. the more you give people the more of them will find very different very odd ways of playing a game.

we are walking a pretty good line with this so far in GW and I would like to reiterate that i think this change would go beyond what is needed to counter the disinformation spread by players.

its in my opinion a chnage that is totally unneeded its not that i have a huge problem with the change itself but rather making the change without any true necessity.

the game has more than one way to go. you could finish it many ways limiting one in this cas

Chances are they earned the gold on another character and simply got the armor on that character because it's armor they have been wanting for a while. I mean no level 3 could get to a place like droknars unless they have some serious gold to spare.

/Notsigned

This would unlock Droknor's Forge to all of your 2,3 annd 4 th char.s.I can just see it now go get all your basic skills and secoundary in pre go thru the searing and when you get to Ascalon just map to the Forge.When your 1st char has unlocked it for the rest.Yes I don't like it when I see level <20 with 15K armor on as well.

Hey Age, no one suggested that. Read the thread.

The suggestion is not that Droks gets unlocked for your subsequent characters but that the path does. In other words, someone's very first character would not be able to go into Lornars/Dreadnoughts/Snake Dance/etc but any subsequent character would as long at least one character has ascended.

... Who ever mentioned giving people the ability to map to Droks straight away? Do we have a bit of a reading problem?


@Cyril Aspect

I do understand the desire to keep the game as free to playing choices as possible, and therefore why people would be against the ascention limitation. While I don't feel that the change as it is proposed is infringing too much on player freedoms, I respect your opinion on the matter. To me, it seems no different than the PvP limitations on unlocking Team Arenas or HA, where the player must complete one form of play before moving on to another. In that matter, we may have to agree to disagree.

I'm curious, though, what your opinion is in regards to creating a second section of Beacon's Perch for runners to form groups, with no limitations to accessing it other than hearing an NPC on your first time there explain what a Droknars run is.

Yes but if char 1 can't go down and char 2 can wouldn't this mean unlocking it once char 1 has unlocked it thru ascention.How could you make Lorner's pass assecible to char 2 if char 1 can't go thru it.I read most of the thread most page 1.

Anyone who talks to the NPC's with the BIG GREEN exclamation marks over their heads will get the quests that will guide them to Kryta.

I agree that first time runnees (first on the account) should not be allowed through the portal at Beacon's Perch to Snake Dance.

That being said, I do have a problem with what ANet did at Wintersday. Having one step in the quest Greatest Snowman Ever to go see King Jalis in Droknar's Forge, one member in my guild had to get a run to Drok's to complete the quest.

Therefore, if ANet keeps quests for special event near the location they are acquired or earlier:

/signed.