Competitive Missions done with pvp chars?

Don't look at me. Look at the people who don't want to play Factions. lol. I believe they're the ones who initially brought up how these missions "are all still PvP."

His skiing example was completely irrelevant, because what I was talking about did not even mention competition. My focus was on the structure of the game, and why these Factions missions are hybrids, rather than the straight-up PvP some people are saying they are. You want me to stop getting annoyed? I'd suggest you start thinking about why I'm saying what I'm saying, and how other posts don't even relate to what I'm saying. lol

Conceptual reduction eh? Okay, are you fighting humans so you can stay "King of the Hill," or are you fighting NPCs so you can stay "King of the Hill"?

The answer here is completely obvious...so obvious that the only way for someone to not answer correctly is because they just want to keep bitching about a non-existent problem. If you want to keep replying and attempting to give me a different answer than the completely obvious one, go right ahead. Be my guest. I'll keep asking the same damn question until the answer starts sinking in. I'll give you a hint: it has something to do with hybrid gameplay.

EDIT: Oh, you can also read the FAQ and reach the same conclusion that Jeff Strain says. You can read up on the Factions information virtually anywhere on the web and reach the same conclusion. This is none of the "buying into the hype" crap that Electronic Arts relies on. This is putting 2 and 2 together.

Whatever, I'm done with you. You keep misinterpreting what I'm trying to say and digging up more to argue about. You seem to keep lumping me into the group of people that slander PvP because they don't like it and that's simply not the case.

I'm just trying to make the point that "Hybrid PvP/PvE" is a conceptually impossible state. I'm NOT trying to say Factions will suck. I'm NOT trying to say PvP is the anti-christ. I think if you would take a less abrasive additude toward me you would see the point I'm trying to make instead of cranking out the "quote-book" every time you respond.

My point:
PvE = Player interacts with NPC environment only
PvP = Introduction of competition with other players

The moment you take a PvE setup and introduce player competition you no longer have PvE and have transformed to PvP setup. It is impossible to call that a Hybrid. The only way you can have a true Hybrid is if you find some loophole where competition with other players can be 100% guarenteed optional.

I don't know how much simpler I can make this. It's basic logistics. It has nothing to do with my or anyone else's game preferences.

I don't care what Jeff says. Of course he's going to take the position that Factions is a unique experience, he's playing the roll of PR promoter; it's his job!

I've already seen your side and agree that Factions may be the best thing since sharpened broadswords. So please, please put "down the gun" and see where I'm coming from on this. If you do, you'll understand why PvE purists are upset. You don't have to agree with them, but it'll help to understand why they bitch so much. That's all I ask.

Mis-interpreting how? That you're trying to tell me there can never be a hybrid gameplay type? What have my counterarguments been based on? My focus of this discussion with you has always been that what we're going to see in Factions may very well be a hybrid gameplay, wherein you're facing NPCs and are aware that there's another team of humans facing their own set of NPCs.

No, what I'm doing is continually throwing your own argument back in your face, because your argument doesn't hold water, as it were.

"Trying" being the key word here. lol

From Pharalon in http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...7&postcount=91

Like I've said before, this hybrid concept has been explained ad nauseum. The "there can never be a hybrid PvP/PvE setting" argument has been debunked time and time again. It's time to put it down for good, TimeCatalyst.

I've yet to see a single debunk, just continual faulty disagreements and personal attacks.

Again, real mature. Grow up.

Prove that it doesn't! You have yet to prove anything other than cite the information that my criticism is aimed at. You don't back up the info, you just say "this guy says this..." That's not throwing an argument back, that's just repetitive.

I don't care how many times they explain the "Hybrid" system. People explained the earth was flat for centries yet it didn't make it true.

Oh come on. Lighten up. lol. I know I'm having fun here, watching people squirm. ~_^ If you can't laugh, why live?

Seems to me that when you say it's not a hybrid system for X reasons, and then we reply with "Yes, it is, for the following reasons," I'd say that's proving there's a way that a hybrid system can exist. What do you think? Other people see it. It's PvPvE. It's PvP in the sense that other players are involved, working for a goal opposite your own. It's PvE in the sense that you're fighting computer enemies.

What's not to understand?

mgstout, you see "personal attacks" because there's virtually no way any sensible person could continue to ignore what's been explained numerous times by numerous people.

Therein lies the problem. I'm criticizing those very reasons. And instead of proving them, you just restate them. That's doesn't prove anything and it certainly doesn't disprove my angle.

And instead of attacking people personally, you could show some maturity and increase your credibility in this debate.

I am taking a wait and see approach but I too am concerned about how they are meshing the idea of PVP and PVE. I love the PVE element and detest the PVP element of the existing game.

We shall see what the future holds...

QTF..

PvPer: ITS A PVE AREA
PvEer: ITS A PVP AREA
Me: Uhhhh guys why do we care lets just try it out.

Guys don't you thinks its a little stupid trying to sort things into PvP and PvE is just a bit stupid?

The reasons being...

1) You're fighting the computer, not humans.

2) Human competition is present, but does not have a direct effect.

Am I missing anything? I think those are the two main points as to why it's a hybrid system, correct?

Now, do you really think you've got some valid criticism of "those very reasons"? How could you prove the reasons wrong? Are you able to somehow prove that we won't be going up against NPCs in those missions? Are you able to somehow prove that ANet is lying their asses off when they describe those missions? Or perhaps you intend to imply that it's all just lame marketing hype a la Electronic Arts? Or do you plan on proving that the NPCs are just figments of our imaginations?

The reasons we've been giving are based on information coming directly from ANet. Unless you can show us that ANet is lying about everything, playing some absurd Electronic Arts hype campaign, and show us how we're actually going to be facing human players, rather than NPCs...you have not been criticizing the reasons.

And for the sake of argument, let's see what the definition of "hybrid" is. From Dictionary.com:

Now are these new missions going to be of mixed origin or composition? We're going to be facing NPCs in a PvE environment, while at the same time, being aware of another team of human players fighting against their own set of NPCs. Mixed composition? Absolutely. Hybrid? I think so. Combination of PvE and PvP, which would become PvPvE? I think so.

If you still want to "criticize those reasons," you need to produce something to actually cast doubt on them. You need to prove how the definition of "hybrid" doesn't apply here. And your "the minute you take PvE and introduce player competition" tripe from a previous post is not sufficient. You're treating this entire thing like it's black and white. It's not black and white.

Oh, yes, because I'm so concerned with increasing my credibility in an online debate that shouldn't have happened in the first place! lol

Even better prove it is an rpg!

Why do you continue to taunt and sling sarcasm? Again, grow up.

As I've said before, PvP does NOT have to imply that you are directly fighting each other. PvP is player competition, period. You are, in fact, competing with other people for control and access to areas. Thus it creates a PvP environment and ceases to be a PvE one. If it was still PvE, you wouldn't have to deal the competing with other players to gain control/access at all.

The only way that a "hybrid" system would be an acurate term for what they built is if you could somehow guarentee no competition (and when I say "no competition" I mean, no situations created by anything or anyone but the game world. Be it control, access, or otherwise), but allow groups of players to control the same world at the same time. The problem is, this is naturally paradoxial and can not occur. Thus disproving the acuracy of the term "Hybrid PvPvE System."

And to back this up even further I'm going to use your definition:

"Hybrid n. Something of mixed origin or composition."

PvE is what it is because there is no competition from any other players in any way, shape, or form. It's just you (and your party) versus the gameworld. When you introduce competition in an attempt to mix the 2 together, you transform the PvE system into a PvP system. Nothing gets mixed because you lose the composition that makes PvE what it is. And to clarify, just because there are NPCs in the game, it does not solely mean that PvE is preserved.

In the end you are left with a system in which players must compete with each other for control, access, or otherwise... The exact definition of PvP. It may not be direct, but the fact remains that player competition is still present and necessary to play the game.

What they built is a very interesting system that I don't deny might be damn fun to play. But to call it a "Hybrid" between PvE and PvP is inacurate. What they built is a PvP system. Albeit a very unique one, but it's still PvP.

So...

Do I think this is valid criticism for what they claim their system is? Of course! I couldn't be more verbose about it!

Am I trying to prove it's all advertising hype? Not at all. Hoever, I do understand that companies need to promote their products. So, if dropping buzzwords gets the job done, then they do it (reguardless if whether or not the buzzword is acurate).

Well if you want anyone to take you seriously, it would behove you to because right now your snide comments spin you off as a hot-headed, immature teenager.

I would agree with you, I could even go on to say how is it an rpg.

This has gone totally o/t into a battle of semantics. But I'm stuck at work, very bored and need to kill time somehow. So here we go.

You're saying that as soon as any form of player driven competition is involved, PvE ceases to exist, and you're now playing PvP. It is a wholly illogical conclusion, or at least leads to so rediculous conclusions. Let's say Anet implements a mechanic where the toon who has completed the most storyline missions gains exclusive access to a special solo instance. Following your logic, the entire storyline (the core rpg element of the game) is now 100%PvP, as the completion of those missions now influences access to certain areas, and puts anyone playing those missions in direct competition with other players.

It's a rediculous example, but it's exactly the same as the challenge mission mechanic. Sure, it puts you in direct competition for control of areas, but in your instance, it's pure PvE, no different to any storyline mission. It's competitive if you want it to be, but only if you want it to be. Competition Missions are different in that they are directly competitive, and hence sit further along the scale between PvE and PvP. Which is exactly what we have here: a scale of gametypes between the extremes of PvP and PvE, ranging from no competition to pure competition, and everything in between.

Do you honestly feel that some external entity scoring your performance on a PvE map transforms that into a PvP (and hence less enjoyable for you) experience?

I give up, I give up completely.

ANet's trying to close the breach between PVE and PVP community, and all you are trying to do is broaden it.

Well, I suppose if you want to say... All traditional MMORPG is a PvEvP.

Why?

Players are allow to hunt monsters wherever and whenever. Until someone come in and say "Hey! GTFO, this is our area.", at that moment you either PvP or get lost. Then there are those proffesional farmers, they would gather a huge mob of train and run to your location dropping the mobs on you at the same time. Of course, there are also players who would heal the monster, buff the monster, etc to get you kill. Who can forget about KS? They would come over and kill steal your monster/item/etc.

I guess the only real PvE games are offline.

Its called fear of change torquemada. Anet is doing something new (again) and people are afraid it will translate into more things that hardcore PvE or PvP players don't want to do. Truth is, it probably will. Since there will be an ever increaing amount of content, there must (through simple logical reasoning) be more things that type A people don't enjoy. Notice please, that I did not say there will be fewer things for them to enjoy. I said there will be more content that is not catered specifically to them.

If they don't guarantee that now, why would you ever have come to expect that in the future? Did everyone in PvE think that Anet was going to "come to its senses" and realise that PvEers are the driving force behind their game? The simple fact is that you are one group amoung many.

Its not "all for some and none for you". Its "something for everyone to enjoy". yes, that also means "theres some things you won't like" but they haven't abandoned PvEers here. I don't know how many times its been said but:
there will be PvE quests in GWF
there will be PvE missions in GWF
there will be a continuation fo the story mode in GWF
there will be mre items (and by proxy item farms) in GWF

Anet heard your cries for added content a long time ago. Thats why they've added content (not one but now 2 green farming locations with replayable quests as well) into GWP. Why would a company that wants you to dish out 50$ every six months start skimping on what they know you enjoy? It's like McDonalds suddenly deciding that everyone would rather have soft frozen yogurt rather than frenchfires, so they stop selling the 'tato sticks!

FWIW -

Step 1. Marvel at ANet's ability to spawn mobs that look just like Player Characters. They even have unique (and occasionally very cryptic) names.
Step 2. Wonder at these new mobs' AI. They even randomly shout in local chat. Most of it is incoherent, it may be better to turn off local chat next time. This new mob AI is very unpredictable and occasionally very bad. I hope my group gets lucky and we get the bad AI. I'm in a PUG and coordination is lacking.
Step 3. Relish in the fact that I never have to play PvP.

Technically, yes. It's PvP. However, I would agree with you and lump that instance entirely as a PvE experience. The only problem with that example is that it's impractical. I don't see anyone ever implementing such a system because of the magnitude of players that usually participate in an online RPG. The example is illogical and thus when my definitions are applied also come off as so. But, yes, this does propose a loophole in my assertions.

The problem here is the monsters are the tools, but the means is still the players. In this case other players are screwing with your progress through the game. Just because there are NPCs present doesn't maintain that it's.

I agree. This is what makes GW so unique. They were able to create an MMO that was a nearly perfect PvE experience. It is/was a place where competitive and noncompetitive players could go.

I've stated earlier that I'm not a PvP hating purist. I play PvP and enjoy it very much. The whole point to my original post was to maybe get people to understand better why hardcore PvEers are so upset with Factions instead of everyone just slinging elitest insults back and forth. The semantics battle over the term "Hybrid" just kind of happened.

OK, this sounds like a colossal misunderstanding.

Even if the new Hybrid missions don't require you to defeat the other players to "win", they still effect the mission. For example, it sounds like people can kill you, and even though you apparently instantly Res, won't you still have a death penalty?

The only way that these new Hybrid missions couldn't be considered PvP if the other Players could not effect your character at all. And then, what would be the point?

That said, I myself am excited about the possibilities, and can't wait to try out this new "Hybrid" experience.

If you think that was taunting and sarcasm, you need to start thinking before reacting. I was asking you those questions to give you an opportunity to actually criticize the reasons. And yet you deemed it more appropriate to accuse me of insulting you, taunting you, etc., when if you had read that portion of my post more carefully, you would have realized I was doing nothing of the sort. You want to accuse me of taunting you? That's your choice. But it's a lousy choice.

The PvE composition being what? Forming PUGs and fighting the computer. There is nothing more than that.

In PvE, you barely need to explore anything anymore. There's no use for Port Sledge and Marhan's Grotto, because Ember Light Camp has all the skills for sale. That's two "hidden" outposts that just became completely useless and might as well not even be there anymore. Or what about Ice Tooth Cave? Before Dakk sold every skill in the game, there were skills there you couldn't find in most places. How many people know about Maguuma Stade? Or better yet, how was Maguuma Stade ever useful?

In PvE, you barely need build design. You can load up on hard-hitting skills and spells and that's pretty much fine. The monsters don't know about Bonding, they don't know about Protective Spirit. They know absolutely nothing about damage mitigation--or at least they know what could be considered absolutely nothing.

I could go on, you know. The "composition" of PvE is nothing more than grabbing a few people and hitting Enter Mission. Then you fight the computer. That's it.

And you say that there's no PvE element like that in these new Factions missions? That it's now all PvP? Don't be so asinine and short-sighted.

None of us here is saying that it's still "pure PvE," just like we're not saying it's "pure PvP." It's a combination of the two. You can argue semantics all you want, try to weasel your way out of the definition of hybrid, but as it stands, these missions are PvPvE hybrids, because if it were "pure PvP," there wouldn't be an NPC team to kill; you'd be facing a human team a la HoH. And as it stands now, you're facing a team of NPCs. You're facing the environment. The other human team is almost completely incidental.

Things aren't black and white here. Try seeing the gray area.

You're seeing things in complete black and white. You still have no valid criticism because of that as far as I'm concerned.

If it were Electronic Arts, I think you'd have a stronger case. I'm not saying ANet is God or anything, or infallible, but you're reading far too much into it than is really necessary.

Do you think I care if you're getting offended? Let's have some fun with this. What kind of guy do you think I am? Based on my tone and delivery, how old am I? I think it's wise to mention that there are some 30-year-olds on these boards who don't even spell correctly (let alone type a post that's readable), so I'd suggest you don't go thinking you've got me pegged when you reply to this.

I'm done with this. You aren't getting any of my points and you argue with new points that have already been disproven or explained by my previous posts.

Congratulations, you win, I'm out...

Your "points" are based on what we currently understand when it comes to gameplay. What we currently understand is going to be changing in Factions. You argue that these missions aren't Hybrids, because introducing any measure of competition into PvE transforms it into PvP, no questions asked. A Hybrid system cannot exist by your argument. I'm getting your points, Time.

I just happen to think they're completely simplistic and short-sighted, because not only are you basing them on an understanding that will become largely irrelevant in Factions, you're also basing your points on a black-and-white scenario. And rarely, if at all, is anything ever black-and-white. In fact, people who see things in black-and-white are usually the ones standing in the way of progress.

It's funny, actually, when someone brought up the "World is flat" idea. Back then, you had two conflicting beliefs:

1) The world is flat.

2) The world isn't flat.

I think it'd be interesting to see how that correlates to this discussion.

The "World is flat" people were afraid of change. They saw the horizon and were scared of it. The horizon was dangerous for them, a place that was their death...literally. "Go there and you'll fall off the edge of the world!"

What did the "World isn't flat" people say? They were excited about the prospect of breaking new ground, of going on an adventure that nobody else was comfortable with. These explorers saw that horizon and thought "Hey, there might be some really great stuff out there."

How could this apply to this discussion? Which side is afraid of the change? And which side is eager to try it? Which side believes these changes will be the proverbial "edge of the world" scenario, versus which side believes these changes won't throw people into an eternal abyss?

Which side is the black-and-white scenario in the "World is flat" dichotomy? Which side is the tragically limited point of view?

To answer the OP, I'd say this was PvP and PvP characters would be usable.

I'm an ex-DAoC player and the "competaive missions" sound JUST like the DAoC frontier zones, which were PvP zones with a lot of PvE style content. The PvE content is just filler to make the zone feel right - it's atmospheric, but don't be fooled - it's all a pretext to fighting enemy players. The bigger the PvP arena, the more of this PvE style filler you need to add - it's all cool though, I still remember DAoC relic raids fondly with 200-a-side and lots of chug and the occasional server crash from the overload

Nope. No death penalty.

I have no problem on Anet does, I have a problem when Anet says there will be rpg when really it doesnot.

From GW Updates page:
Sigh. Not only is it PvP. It's RANDOM team PvP. And yet they're calling it PvE content.

So you find nothing in PvE, no fun there. Sorry, but we do. Please keep your personal insults to yourself.

In C1 we had PvP and PvE (and the conflict between the "exclusive" to one yelling at the other.

Expanding styles to play:
PvP - In Various Forms
PvPvE - Hybrid (Quest/PvP system).
PvE - Quests/Mission

From design stand point, this is great, Anet i expanding (additional things) beyond what we have now (and not removing current modes of play)

Now for those that only play PvE or PvP and poke at the "other side" this is going to add much fuel to the fire.

PvE and PvP "only" players are worried about what "content" this hybrid get access to and from that.... more fuel to the fire.

It makes sense I only do X style, there this new one, it contains elements of what I don't like or prefer, "I have to change to fit a new style" and what rewards you are missing by not doing can be found at the root.

OK, let me see if I have this correct:

The "PvP" part of these competitive missions absolutely does nothing to effect whether you finish the quest or not?

The "PvP" part is just for faction points?

So, I could say "LFG who doesn't care about Factions, just wants to do mission" and all would be fine, correct?
(In essence, letting the other group "win", and going and doing the mission at our own pace, ignoring them whenever we interact?)

This is sounding less and less like PvP to me...

If you want to get technical with definitions, the current PvP in GW is actually a hybrid. How? You're forced to work around the arena maps, i.e. environments. One of the most basic things in the game is positioning and that is entirely due to the environment. Any time you step in lava in the Crag, you're fighting the environment; any time someone ducks behind a wall to dodge your arrows, you're fighting the environment; any time you're body blocked in a choke point, you're fighting the environment. A purely player vs. player game type would not involve positioning or movement in any way, because that introduces an environment outside of the players' control which affects competition.

As well, PvE is also a hybrid in the most technical sense because there are ways to compete. I'm sure everyone is familiar with griefing. Well, what do you think is happening when that rogue tank grabs three mobs and drags them over to the rest of the party with the intent of getting them killed? The tank and the rest of the party are competing with each other; the tank to kill the others, and the others to resist the tank's efforts. Or it could even be a simpler competition to see who could do the most damage in a given amount of time or something like that. In order to create a purely PvE game type you would have to remove all interaction with other players or else the possibility for competition arises. Though this one is actually possible in GW since you can solo or party with henchies.

Like I said previously, whether it was a different thread or this one, there's a difference between the truth and an insult. What I've been saying about PvE is the truth. If I wanted to insult PvErs, I'd be insulting myself, and believe me, if I wanted to insult PvErs, you'd know it.

What I'm saying about PvE is only insulting to those who have no capacity to understand logic or the truth.

It's like Dr. McCoy always getting pissed at Spock in the old Star Trek series. Spock is never saying anything all that inflammatory, yet Bones acts like Spock just burned his mother, his father, his family dog, his cousins, and trashed his skills as a doctor, when in fact all Spock was saying was that Bones wasn't acting rationally.

When will people stop acting like Dr. McCoy?

"here are several potential Alliance Battle maps. Map layouts vary, but all the maps have the same goal: be the first side to reach 500 points. Points are gained by controlling strategic locations on the map and by killing enemies. Only one map is active at a time, depending on where the current battle lines are located. As the battle shifts deeper into Luxon or Kurzick territory, the Alliance Battles are biased to favor the losing side."

This looks like pvp to me, this will kill all the other classies in the game. I am sure that one class or cookie cutter builds will take over maybe leave no room for classies to worked out or tryed. I may be wrong it is too soon to tell.

This looks like pvp to me. Does anyone see another Iway affecting pve. ( not rpg). I predict there will be alot of pve players upset. I maybe wrong but time will tell.



Now picture being locked out and not getting the best weapons on top of that! You can farm to your new armor you want. There will be no place for you to explore for fun. I think every thing will be fast paced. I think there will be more fight between people.I just a guess so I would know.

I think everything that is RPG is out the door or alot less of it is. LOL

rpg terms
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massive...e-Playing_Game
pve terms
http://internetgames.about.com/od/glossary/g/pve.htm
pvp terms
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_versus_player

more terms on pvp
http://yppedia.puzzlepirates.com/PvP
more terms on rpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game


now ask you self where does GW fit in these terms! Would you say that guild wars is an RPG? Would say fractions is an RPG?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, The PvP Purist's like their little bubble the way it is, and now are complaining that Anet wants to expand the gaming world to allow more PvE opportunities in on PvPs territory. Basically Gang logic... IE: "This is my territory We marked it, and you dared step where I pissed, now we kill you. "

I doubt these people will leave the battle isle anyways. so much the better for the rest of us.

Have you even read this thread? It's the complete opposite of what you're saying it is.