Better Assassin: Ranger or The Assassin?

Just beening thinking, with the advantage of Expertise from the Ranger, which could allow a lot more skills spaming, would it be better off to be using the ranger as the dual dagger users, instead of using the Assassin as the main class?

Imo the dmg from 16 dagger mastery combined with the critical hit atribute makes Assasins better. ^^

The only advantage ranger has in expertise, and their ability to spam the attacks isn't too much different than an assassin with zealous daggers. Boy do assassins benefit from zealous daggers.

Don't forget that you get some extra armor if your a ranger.

Might be better for a ranger in PvE

Similarly, I've many-a-time considered R/W for expertising those warrior skills. I've not tried it, due to armor considerations.

I imagine A/* and R/A will both be viable as dagger builds, much like we see both regular warriors and "thumper" R/Ws.

I think A/R is a better way to do it. The assassin will have an extra pip, and they get energy from criticals (which they can jack up to the 40%+ range if they want), and the damage done with a 16 dagger is going to be significantly higher than 12 and no critical bonus. Tiger's fury or frenzy is a good idea with them though. I'm a big fan of frenzy though, and with some of the teleporting skills available to the assassin, I think frenzy is an option.

Yeah I've been giving it thought and was gung-ho R/A for awhile, leverage expertise skills too. But losing the '16' and critical attribute and a Pip...

R/W works as it saves energy with expertise and you gain a pip, but you lose the '16' and you don't gain extra benefit with Adrenaline skills and miss armor/dmg reduction.
A/W should work as it saves energy with expertise and the Dagger Mastery line is all about energy attacks, armor change shouldn't be bad, but you lose '16' and a pip.

Even that is a simplistic view - yeah got some synergies there but miss out on others, just like pretty much every decision. At least here though there are some immediately discernable benefits in the Dagger Mastery line.

As always, each combo has it's own strengths and weaknesses. In the case of R/A vs A/R though, the key one is actually quite subtle.

Both have an energy management primary attribute (lower cost of skills vs energy gained by attacking), and on paper Expertise is the better (some would say best) energy management attribute. It does, however have a basic flaw - only works on skills. If your build wants to take advantage of things such as Expose Defences (Hex spell, 10 energy, can't block or evade for 3....9 secs, 10 sec recharge), then Expertise won't cut it against a 4 regen 'sin gaining energy from crits. On the other hand, if you're purely focusing on attack skills and stances, nothing will make your build more effective and durable than Expertise.

So, in the end, same as every other build anyone has ever thought of - the key is what works with what you want to do, not what's 'best'.

May I ask what a pip is?

a pipes* is the arrows in your energie/health bar wich makes regen faster.

I dont get why the Assassin doesnt have an IAS stance of his own.

I found that curious initially, but I think that's balanced. The class already feels more self-sufficient than the other ones, so making you commit the secondary for an IAS skill seems fair. With the 4 pips and energy coming from criticals, it would be pretty easy to add some spell power from the secondary and still be a direct damage dealer. I think with the IAS not being available in the primary, it makes you make more of a choice as far as that goes.

The main reason people would go R/A over Assassin primary for Dagger is that while Critical Hits has the potential to be the most efficient energy gain system around, it's very spotty and cannot be relied upon to perform in a pinch. Your energy management relies upon dealing critical hits.

Expetise, on the other hand, is a global bonus which will apply without fail to every single applicable skill one launches. It can be relied upon to the point of effectively calculating and predicting its effects. This makes it much more attractive to the average Joe than a sporadic, unpredictable attribute like Critical Hits.

But. Let's take a closer look at Critical Hits, shall we?

First off, using Assassin primary lets one punch themselves up to 16 Dagger Mastery, which automatically gives one a 4% better chance of scoring a critical hit than an R/A could (reasonably) go. This increases the chance of Critical Hits going off and giving you that extra +2 Energy.

Second off. Critical Hits, unlike Expertise, is offensive as well as defensive. Dealing a critical hit increases the damage dealt by an attack (duh, but hey), and Critical Hits increases the chance of dealing those critical hits. This means that the attribute boosts your damage output at the same time as it helps out your Energy.

Thirdly, let's just see what Critical Hits could do here. Using the standard 12/10/8 attribute with a Superior Dagger and Minor CH rune, we get 16 Dagger and 11 Critical Hits. This gives us, if I remember my critical ratios correctly, roughly a one-third chance per blow to inflict a critical hit. Given that daggers attack at a rate of one blow every 1.33 seconds, this basically means that, on average, you'll gain an extra 2 Energy once every four seconds.

That is roughly a pip and a half of regen, not counting the bolstered chance of criticals that 16 levelvs of Double Strike gives. Dagger Mastery 16 gives a 32-percent chance of Doulbe Strike, which in turn adds an extra one-third of one-third chance to attain a critical hit, adding an extra one-ninth chance for that +2 Energy. Not going to bother to figure that extra one-ninth in regen, but it's there.

The catch, of course, is that this only works while the Assassin is attacking, and it works at its best when the Assassin is attacking constantly, something that Assassins aren't really built to do. However, if they can manage it, Critical Hits is a much more effective method of energy management than most people give it credit for, and is only the second primary attribute thus far to directly increase the user's damage capacity (the other, of course, being the Warrior's Strength).

So. 16 Dagger, improved attack damage, and a perfectly reasonable energy management system - which doesn't work by breakpoints - is why someone would play an Assassin primary for daggers :-P. Unfortunately most people consider daggers, and Assassin primaries in general, useless at this point. I feel confident, however, that just like every other profession, Assassin primaries will find their niche. it may be a very narrow and none-too-desired niche, which will suck since I will hold firm to my plans for an Assassin primary, but it will be there. If for no other reason than to use such skills as Shroud of Silence or Expunge Enchantments at 16, in a similar manner as to what made Necromancer primaries popular again.

Here's hoping, anyways.

I don't see how a single class R/A can compare with A/W, A/R. A/Mo, A/N, A/E, A/Me, A/Ri.

How many possibility are you guys talking about? Everything in here argued based on R/A vs A.

While in terms of primary attribute, the critical chance are decent enough to keep my energy going last event.

The only reason I would go R/A is for a gazillion stances in Random Arena. Which I would never be, as I think that is pretty lame. If anything, I go A/R with bow; woot for quadruple shot with criticals! (dual->quickshot->savageshot)

I'd go with Assassin. Critical Strike (yeah, Strike, not StrikeS - the attack, not the Attribute) makes up for your lack of Expertise. 'Course, you'll still need the Attribute.

Assassin's energy management engine is better than Ranger's energy management engine, at least when it comes to daggers.

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Woooo Thread Res >< over a year old. But yeah, I'd go with Assassin.

The Assassin PvE skill Critical Agility tipps the scales in favor of the Assassin. Assassins can also use Assassin runes and headgear.

The benefits of high expertise go poof above 13/14, then you lack a dagger rune, a shadow or deadly arts rune and all Critical Strikes skills.

Lightning Reflexes, Whirling Defense and Throw Dirt might work in PvE, but it does not make up for the loss of the primary attribute line and the greatly increased chance to score critical hits.

Regardless of PvE or PvP, R/A builds were more gimmicky than effective. And in PvE I would prefer a real Ranger with a bow over an assassin most of the time.

necromancyyyyyyyyyyy <3

Assassins better than Ranger?!? O...m...g... Ranger is the only class able to use long range attacks (no elementalist skills do not count sorry).

Ranger's can depend themselves when attacked, deal high amounts of dmg including max degen.

Yes, there is exceptions but, ranger is the ultimate class.

Ever see a assassin spike regularly used in HA? Maybe when it is the "hott build" *cough*pvXwiki*cough* BUT the one dominating build/class would be ranger spikes. From thumpers, pack hunters, beast masters, to plain ol fashioned flatbow spikes, ranger will and always will be the dominating class compaired to assassins

W/A with daggers and Flourish is actually pretty painful so I'll vote for the Wildcard option.

You can pull off a combo with guaranteed extra armour penetration and recuperate all energy with Flourish and start again now that skills are newly recharged too.

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Longasc's right: Can't beat Critical Agility.

i suggest being an assasin with zealous cause they have beetter energy mange imo

not to mention that a crit always occurs when hitting a moving target, so if your target runs you get tons of energy. and if it stands there and takes a beating then you gain energy at a decent rate just for hitting.

the best assassin is an assassin.
ranger works, but assassin comes out on top.

What are you trying to say here ditich the Ranger in favour of the Assassin or vice versa?

The person who rezzed this needs to be shot, at least with a tranq dart.

With Daggers, I'd say Assassins for most of the game in PvE.

But when you get to level 28 mobs, Assassins lose most of their critical chance with Daggers, and thus a lot of their e-management, and there the R/A wins.

In PvP R/A's are more like gimmick builds that can work well in RA and other random areas like that, but they get crushed in any sort of organized environment because they have too many conditions that need to be fulfilled in order to function at maximum efficiency, and people with half a brain will know what you are doing and stop you.

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Depends I guess. In pvp, I doubt there's any question at all. With you all being equal level, and people actually kiting so you can crit them, A/x rolls in energy. But in pve, where most things don't move after the first 5 secs or so, and where they are usually 8 levels or so higher, you don't crit as much and so crit doesn't give as much energy as normal and expertise may be more useful. This is of course for attack chain sins, sin caster heavy sins get nothing from expertise.

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This is where it begins. This is where he rises to rule the forums.
The Undead Thread Lord is growing in strength. We are all doom'd!

/me shivers in fear

in PvE and PvP

assassins make the best.. assassins..

for pve sins have.. high defense with 1 skill <<

[skill]Critical Defenses[/skill]

that is usually all i need to keep my health up

and i am currently in the tormented realm.. and im having no problem with my health

the only that would make a ranger worth using is because of expertise.. but we could just use our primary attribute... critical strikes mixed with zealous daggers.. if we had problems with our energy.. couldnt we?



pvp.. assassins just deal more damage than a ranger can. it'd be a fun variant but.. i've tried ranger/assassin and i'd go with assassin/x anytime.

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Even more thread necromancy?

Closed.