A great idea for Assassins in a future release

To give the Assassin a little more pizazz behind his profession of choice, I came up with this idea:

The enchantment clause prevents cheesy tactics like teleporting away easily after getting your combos in or if it doesn't work (evasion, etc.). It lasts a short time to not be abuseable if you don't get your setup going, and the long recharge also aids in making it balanced. Still, it'll be an awesome skill when combined with stuff like Critical Defenses (a high chance to block with each critical hit). Getting a speed skill like Frenzy adds to the madness.

What do you guys think? Shouldn't an assassin be able to "stalk" his victim to do extra damage?

I'd imagine it'd also make the Assassin invisible to Tabbing through targets, holding Control, etc?

And also, 75% slower? I couldn't imagine this skill being useful then. Max 7-second duration, with 75% slower movement. I fail to see how you could use this in combat. 7 seconds of "invisibility" isn't going to do anything when you're moving 75% slower. The only times this would be useful are if you're right next to your target, or within a distance you can cover in...7 seconds. But with a 75% reduction in speed? You're not going to cover any ground with it.

Plus, unless this skill makes you completely invisible, as in even to the players themselves (a "You go poof!" kind of thing), it seems purely like a cool factor skill.

You can't use it to sneak around, due to the movement reduction and low duration, so forget about working your way around an alternate path in Warrior's Isle during guild battles, or even in HoH. Those 7 seconds will be up very quickly, and you'll not have gotten far at all.

You can't use it when you're in the middle of combat, because if you don't become completely invisible (like a Predator-esque thing, though not with the shimmeries), your enemies can still see you, physically. And if they can still see you physically, I don't see why they couldn't attack you.

But even if you do become like the Predator, that doesn't really matter, because when you're moving at 1/4 your speed, nobody will give a shit, I think. We see what Imagined Burden, Deep Freeze, etc., can do to movement, so invisibility doesn't improve the skill anyway. Even when your enemies can't see you, even if they kite in a minimal fashion, you're screwed. Even if they end up running toward you.

So...yeah. I'm not feeling this skill. The movement reduction is counter productive, as is the duration I think, and the recharge, as well.

I think the idea behind the skill is good. Stalking in-game is fun. As my Assassin, I kind of pretend I do it already, keeping to the shadows, the plants along the walls, etc.

But I don't think it's feasible in this current form (and for an Elite it's absolute crap, I think). You basically need Death's Charge or something similar, and a Cripple attack to make it minimally desirable in your skill bar.

My suggestions are something like the following.

You might be able to bring the recharge back up to 45 seconds with those revisions, but apart from that, I think it's a step in the right direction with a skill of this nature.

Oh, incidentally, since this skill is "practicing the art of invisibility," shouldn't it have a more...I don't know...Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle-ish name? I remember Splinter harping on "the art of invisibility" after all. Perhaps Rat's Wager? Way of the Rat? Rat's Wager sounds like it'd be an appropriate name, given the trade-off when you get in range, but Way of the Rat sounds pretty cool, too. lol

^ My version.

The second one is way too powerful, and the first one doesn't give enough time to both get there and attack. Attacking while invisible, however, is unrealistic.. if you attack someone, they're going to know that you're there. So instead, my version gives a few seconds of time where the target would be unable to respond (should be two attacks, 3 with 33% speed boost). It definately needs to be an elite, and have a nice long recharge time because it could be responsible for single-handedly killing a target, especially if there are two running in tandem.

The only problem is that, to my understanding, the assassin and rit won't be getting any more skills after factions. I may be wrong, especially if an expansion comes out without any new classes.

Because of the damage, you have to gimp it as I did. Your version gives it too much because of the unavoidable Critical hits stacking on them. The only thing about my original version is that you can't use speed attacks like Flurry/Frenzy because they are stances too. Otherwise, I like most of what it does. If it needs to be buffed a bit, I'll change it this way:

How's that? More time and not as slow. You can do a build like this:

==========================
As/X

Critical Strikes: 11
Dagger Mastery: 15
Shadow Arts: 11

Dark Prison: Shadow Step to foe, he moves 33% slower for five seconds
Stalker Stance {E}: 9 seconds worth
Black Mantis Thrust: 20 damage, Cripple for 16 seconds
Jungle Strike: 51 total damage on a Cripple
Repeating Strike: 20 damage per spammed attack
Twisting Fangs: 11+11 plus Deep Wound for about 122 total
Shadow Refuge: Evade 50% attacks for 4 seconds, then heal for 96
Rez
==========================

Cast Dark Prison and go into Stalker Stance when you appear, attack with BMT to stack for -66% speed debuff (slow enough for your -50% speed to chase), JS for cripple damage bonus, then as many Repeating Strikes as you can before Twisting Fangs spikes for damage. Assuming you get four repeating strikes in and Crits connect for 30 damage each time, you do:

273 base damage (on 60 AL) and 240 for all Crits = 513 damage. You are also getting 2E with each Crit attack (+16E total here), so you are always ready to dish out damage once your skills recharge. Shadow Refuge is to give you some protection and healing as you battle. You can also cast Dark Prison on a distant, harmless foe (a Monk) if you need a breather from a pursuer (or simply Cripple him instead).

Stalker (Stance): For 3..9 seconds, you move 33% slower and you do not appear on any enemy's radar except other Assassins. All your attacks result in a Critical Hit if successful. Stalker ends if you use a non-attack skill or are under an enchantment.

5E, 0 cast time, 45 sec. recharge. This is an Elite skill.
Critical Strikes attribute line.

And another..

One with the Shadow (Stance): For 3...15 seconds you move 33% slower and you do not appear on any enemy's radar except other Assassins. One with the shadow ends if you are sucessfully attacked, or attack.

What's stopping the target from getting Dark Prison removed, and getting the Cripple removed? It seems like this entire tactic would be really obvious to the other team. All of a sudden one of their teammates has Dark Prison, and is Crippled, and yet there are no enemies visible? That'll be a priority hex and condition removal right there, if not the very top priority.

The duration is certainly better, but I think Nevin's 33% slower is correct. Remember that most Shadow Stepping (from what I've seen and done) requires spell-casting range (in the area I believe), so already, you're right in front of the target before you go into Stalker mode. They'll see you Shadow Step up, then go invisible. Pretty big announcement for what you want to do, and kind of defeats the purpose of being invisible, eh?

personally i think if something like this was gonna be implemented the speed would have to go the other way and not change or be increased slightly.

to balance it out maybe have a counter in there aswell like any attacks on you in stalker are increased slightly

For a speed decrease, you'd have to up the potential length of the stance... maybe change its attribute to Shadow Arts as opposed to Critical? Just seems more... shadowy, even with the critical hit element. Just my two ecto. Very, very good idea- I was somewhat surprised to find that the Assassins didn't have a blatant stealth-walk move.
My only gripe is that you think they need more pizazz. I mean, good grief, they have a Naruto hairstyle.

I just gave one sample build. An advanced team can make their own tactics. For instance, switch out Dark Prison for Spirit Walk. Now you can teleport to the vicinity of the enemy undetected if you go into Stalker stance upon arrival. This time you're using a spirit (theirs, yours, whatever) in the heat of the battle to get in close from radar range, not an opponent's radar range. With 50% speed (as opposed to 33%), you have to sneak in close to do your damage, so choose your spirit wisely.

While I'm at it, here are perfect new skills for Stalker stance:

That's over 40% gone if MC connects at L16 (217 on a 500 HP opponent), but as an initial spike instead of an ending one, the Deep Wound has time to be removed before the combo of choice finishes. No Deep Wound is inflicted if not attacking their six (rear) for a net 10 damage. And finally this skill:

I dunno, it seems cool to me. If anyone's played Enemy Territory (awesome Castle Wolfenstein mod), you know that despite other clues to give you away, it's possible to mingle with the enemy undetected while disguised if you plan it smartly (they only let you appear as another spy though). I'd use this skill in GW to get in close while everyone's fighting in the vicinity of the backline target.

The different att lines here forces you to spread your points some. A sample build with all of these might be....

======================================
As/X

Dagger Mastery: 15
Critical Strikes: 11
Shadow Arts: 11

Incognito: Look like random enemy for 18 secs.
Spirit Walk: Shadow step close to enemy by way of a spirit.
Stalker: Move slow, but undetected for 9 seconds. All hits deliver Criticals
Merciless Cutthroat: Lead attack, 10+102 damage plus 16 sec. Deep Wound if hits from behind
Golden Phoenix Strike: Off-hand, 30 damage to enchanted foe
Death Blossom: Dual hit with 26 AoE damage
Shadow Refuge: Evade 50% attacks for 4 secs. and heal for 96
======================================

Visually target enemy whose near a spirit from a distance. Change clothes via Incognito, Spirit Walk to enemy's area. Immediately go into Stalker stance to conceal you on the radar. Creep behind target and open with Merciless Cutthroat. Continue with Golden Phoenix Strike on the enchanted enemy and end with Death Blossom. With any remaining Stalker time, use normal attacks for Critical blows each time.

Total damage (including 20 damage for criticals) if executed perfectly is:

MC: 112+10+100+20= 232
GP: 30+20= 50
DB: 26+26+20+20= 92

TOTAL: 374 damage in about 5 seconds of melee. Each Crit normal strike after does 20 damage until Stalker Stance wears out.

You can get all that damage too if you simply go behind a KD'd opponent for the first hit... it would indeed be a lot of damage in a short time, but not enough to instantly solo kill to keep it fair for the opponent's response.

I don't think the specifics of a build matter all that much here, though. The problem isn't what the other skills in the build do. The problem here is this one skill you've suggested requires three other skills just to make it viable. It's not that I believe one skill should be able to be an entire build; I just don't think Stalker is as solid a skill as you think...or as balanced.

I mean, let's say the team uses Spirit Walk instead. How is that going to make Stalker any more viable? You need to target a spirit, but most teams I've seen don't stray all that far from their spirits, unless the opposing team is able to pull them away. So chances are, the opposing team will still be relatively close to your target spirit, right? Which means you'll still be entering their own radar ranges when you Spirit Walk.

But how are you getting up to that spirit? How are you getting in range without them detecting you? You're invisible to their radar, okay, but you're moving 50% slower and you're only invisible for a total of 11 seconds.

Realistically, will that even work in a place like Warrior's Isle? It takes a character with no speed boosts a couple of seconds to cover the distance from the boat to the flag stand, correct? If those characters are running at normal speed, how is this Stalker Assassin ever going to reach his or her target in under 11 seconds, with a 50% speed reduction?

You can Shadow Step, Spirit Walk, etc., up to the target, then go into Stalker?

That still requires getting there, which means getting within radar distance long before you "go silent." Which means if your opponents are smart, they'll see you long before you can get Stalker up and running. After all, the range of the full radar dwarfs the range required for Shadow Stepping, Death's Charge, etc.

And if you do go into Stalker before they can react to the substantial warning flag, they'll still be able to see that something is weird, correct? Or do most players not pay attention to their radars, with red blips approaching, then disappearing? I'm asking a serious question here, because I've seen it half-and-half, but in PvP, I find many players pay attention to as much of the radar and red cons as they can.

The skill just doesn't sound like an actual Stalker mode. The goal of this skill is to be invisible, and yet in order to use it, you're rarely going to be invisible, due to the speed reduction, the short duration, and the tactics required to get in range so you can use the skill. It just seems counter-intuitive for a skill that's supposed to make you invisible to everyone except fellow Assassins, that's all.

I guess it's that the end doesn't justify the means.

The more I think about it, the more I think my suggestion was more in the right direction than the other variations. You desperately need to be able to get in range quickly for this skill to work. Spirit Walking, Shadow Stepping, etc, can only do so much. I think it'd be worth considering the idea that you need a speed boost for this skill initially, then you can start tip-toeing when you get in range.

Hell, something like the following:

The idea is an assassin getting a surprise gank on the opponent. Assassins don't get their best opportunities through speed - I'm not creating another sprint Warrior here. if tweaks are made, it's to maximize the unique style of the Assassin, class, not make a cookie cutter DPS machine with traditional tactics.

Still, I'll accommodate some of your concerns this way:

OK, now as an enemy in disguise, you are free to move among your foes unless they are really paying attention with Incognito alone. If you Spirit Walk while in disguise, they don't see what's up unless they are checking names or head counting (or recognize their twin, lol). I adjusted the stats a bit to reflect Shadow Stalker's removed component (30s recharge now). I like your name change to Stalker Stance BTW.

Now you can hang out in the back of enemy territory, waiting for the chance to gank someone unaware with Stalker stance and Merciless Cutthroat. Now you maximize Stalker stance time, but a foe can run if you don't hold him still. The damage is the same. If you've played RtCW:Enemy Territory, you'll know how much fun this can be. If you're detected with no Monk around? Gank city, lol. That's as much balance as you can ask for. Of course you'll attack only when your teammates mix it up from the front. No way the full combo goes down if you're alone surrounded by opponents (eh, unless you Archane Mimicry Shadow Form... THAT would be cool).

Better?

I'm not trying to make another Sprint Warrior here, though. If I were, why would I even be going along with the "art of invisibility" idea? If I wanted to create another cookie cutter DPS machine, I certainly wouldn't be keeping any speed reductions, either.

But you'll find that in my suggestions, speed reductions are still there. I'm perfectly fine with a speed reduction when the Ass (there's got to be a better abbreviation for that) goes invisible. If they were even able to move at normal speed, it'd become a skill that shouldn't be in the game as far as I'm concerned.

I find your assessment of Assassins not getting their best opportunities through speed a bit questionable, too. Assassins are all about using a faster attack rate, faster movement, faster positioning, etc., to get the drop on their target. It's a class that is hit-and-run entirely. That's entirely speed-based.

A Sprint Warrior is nothing more than a Killing Machine with a speed boost designed solely for catching up to a target.

Assassins, on the other hand, use speed boosts for what is basically pulling a Nightcrawler Kill. (Incidentally, I'd love to see a skill called Nightcrawler, heh)

So that's why I'm leery of not including any type of speed boost for a skill of this type (and I still think 50% speed reduction is way too much).

You can go Incognito, okay. If you have Incognito, what's the point of Shadow Stalker then? Isn't it serving the same function already? You're behind enemy lines and they're not noticing. You can stagger them so if your Incognito is broken, you can then hop into Shadow Stalker and go silent?

Well what about Spirit Walk being a spell? Seems like that'd jam up Incognito, wouldn't it?

Come to think of it, nearly all of the Shadow Step techniques are spells. How are you getting close to your opponents then? Running up and using Incog? Is Incog a spell? Does it depend on the "in the area" aggro bubble like everything else in the game?

And if so, what's to stop the enemies from zeroing you immediately in the first place? Surely hitting 'C' before you go Incog would target you, right?

When you do go Incog, even after they've targeted you, does their target lock break? Do their attacks have "Invalid Target" pop-up? Are they still able to target you? Still able to attack you, perhaps even using the mouse to click on you?

If not, then why do you even need Shadow Stalker? You've already got Shadow Stalker, and it's called Incognito. Without major improvement to Shadow Stalker, Incognito might as well be the Elite version of the idea.

I think if given these two skills, and given the Elite status of Shadow Stalker, you need to make Shadow Stalker worth using. Otherwise, it'll just become yet another one of the Elite skills in the game that's actually overshadowed by its "regular" counterpart. Shadow Stalker desperately needs to be clearly superior to Incognito. I think Incog is fine as it is, so that means Shadow Stalker needs a major buff here, and again, I think that major buff is something similar to what I've been suggesting:

Hell, if we really want to make Shadow Stalker the superior skill out of these two, maybe even drop the recharge time down to 30 seconds, and decrease the duration to 1-15. *edits it* Yeah, that looks better.

What I'm seeing for Shadow Stalker is the following, from the enemy's point of view:

I think that kind of situation would be pretty intense, wouldn't you think? One of the major goals of a skill of this nature is psychological warfare, right? I think it'd be pretty unsettling to see a rushing (speed-boosted) Assassin completely vanish when he or she gets in range.

What do you think?

You can go Incognito, okay. If you have Incognito, what's the point of Shadow Stalker then? Isn't it serving the same function already?

Nope, the new descrip shows that Shadow Stalker has lost its concealment properties and had its recharge decreased.


You're behind enemy lines and they're not noticing. You can stagger them so if your Incognito is broken, you can then hop into Shadow Stalker and go silent?

Yep

Well what about Spirit Walk being a spell? Seems like that'd jam up Incognito, wouldn't it?

Nope

Come to think of it, nearly all of the Shadow Step techniques are spells. How are you getting close to your opponents then? Running up and using Incog? Is Incog a spell?

Nope, I've listed Incognito as a skill from the get-go since spells and enchants cancel Shadow Stalker stance, and you can't be in two stances at once. Incognito is the skill of making yourself look exactly like the enemy... there's no "magic" to it. You can use this skill from beyond the radar screen if you wish, let alone the aggro circle. How you use your skill and wits to get in undetected is up to the player.

I repeat, this is VERY doable already in games like RtCW:ET. I had a blast as a spy by leaving the main battleground area, travelling to the enemy's hideout, staying out of direct view and then wreaking havok when the time was right. I'd either climb on their roof with my silenced sniper rifle, picking them off from behind from a well hidden spot while they battled my team up front, I'd sneak into a room with 5-6 guards who were protecting the gold that we needed to steal, just so I can grab it an run when my buddies stormed the front.. etc. All this isn't possible in GW, but you CAN fool people to at least not notice you if you play it smartly.

Does it depend on the "in the area" aggro bubble like everything else in the game?

For Incognito, no.

And if so, what's to stop the enemies from zeroing you immediately in the first place? Surely hitting 'C' before you go Incog would target you, right?

You can change your clothes at any time. No need to do it when the enemy can see you.

When you do go Incog, even after they've targeted you, does their target lock break?

Nope, so don't do it in front of them

Do their attacks have "Invalid Target" pop-up? Are they still able to target you? Still able to attack you, perhaps even using the mouse to click on you?

They can target and attack you at anytime, just like RtCW:ET. You lose your disguse BTW when they do attack you.

If not, then why do you even need Shadow Stalker? You've already got Shadow Stalker, and it's called Incognito. Without major improvement to Shadow Stalker, Incognito might as well be the Elite version of the idea.

Shadow Stalker's main benefit is that you can freely chain unlimited Criticals until the timer expires. To do that, you have to get to the enemy - stalking them. Stalking is a slow, deliberate act. You can do it without Incognito, but your chances improve if you have it because the naked eye won't easily give you away. The benefit is a rewarding initial surprise strike of Merciless Cutthroat which does a ton of damage followed by the quick followups.

Getting in takes talent and skill... Spirit Walk isn't the only way, but just a suggestion. If your Warriors are at "midfield" fighting a group, you can use Death Charge to get in close after you go Incognito, and then backwalk away from the skirmish towards the healers. I used that method in RtCW:ET as away of slipping into the enemy's guarded areas while the action was going on everywhere. Once you are visually behind the enemy, you appear as a clump of color not unlike theirs so half the time they won't pay it mind...

Slip into Stalker Stance, creep up on the target, and gank them with the Cutthroat combo.

EDIT: Now I see why it looks confusing. When I changed Incognito's descrip, I didn't fix the text of Shadow Stalker like I intended to. My fault... they should read:

It should make better sense now.

This can be considered a ganker? Assassing runs fast to other guild hall, sees people coming out of the base, goes invisble. Than goes kills henchies.

What's the point of a 7-9 second stance that only make you invisible to radars, and has a 45 second recharge? I wouldn't use that.

Assassins should have dual kantana swords just like in the trailer video

Ok, with the Incognito skill, wouldent a team comprising mostly of Ninja (im just gonna call them that from now on, i dont feel like trying to spell its name)
unbalance the game.

8 dagger +4from runes = 12
12 Critical
11 Shadow Arts



Incognito
dash
sprint
Critical eye
1 lead of your choice
1 off hand of your choice
Critical STrike
Mobeus Strike

From what ive seen with just the application of the 4 hit combo and critical eye, things die fast and I dont stop useing the combo untill i get unlucky or everything dies.

so, with this in mind, wouldent 4 or 5 ninja, all sprinting/dashing into the guild hall cloaked essentialy, cause some major unbalance in the game and become the next Ubernerf target?

There is nothing wrong with the skill in my eyes except that its very concept is wildly over powered and balancing it out will make it useless.

Then what's the point of Shadow Stalker? The original intent of it was to shadow stalk. If you're no longer concealed...why bother using it? Just to try to get All-Criticals? Why not use Critical Eye then, with Critical Strikes at a higher level? And most Assassins would normally run Critical Strikes in the 10-12 range I think, particularly if they're using Daggers.

For the next point, I'm going to repeat my initial question: "Does it depend on the "in the area" aggro bubble like everything else in the game?"

Your answer: I've isolated the major parts to this. To others reading the thread, am I the only one who thinks this is absurdly imbalanced, to the point of being broken?

This is a skill that basically hides your team status. It can be used from anywhere on the field. When you use it, it copies a random opponent. It allows you to run at normal speed and if you so desired, if you've got a team behind you, you wouldn't even need Shadow Stalker (Incognito makes it obsolete). Am I the only one who sees some major balance issues here?

Incognito's range desperately needs to be at the very least limited to radar range--but it'd be much better limited to either the "in the area" aggro bubble or a little bit outside it. For such powerful effects, giving it any kind of range beyond In The Area is stretching things a lot.

And anyway, the skill breaks when your opponents hit C (because we all know how Space-Bar happy people are when they see a target right next to them), so all players need to do to keep tabs on Incog players is periodically tap C. This isn't an FPS where you have manual aiming. That's why something like Incog works in an FPS: the computer isn't controlling the targeting like in GW.

Your latest description of Incognito:

I've underlined a certain sentence in the above description. Now look at the latest description of Death's Charge, barring any recent alterations to its skill type:

Notice anything unusual about what I underlined there?

Incognito is overpowered and at the same time completely broken because it doesn't work at all.

It's overpowered because there are pretty much zero limitations on its range. You can use the skill anywhere, apparently, and see no difference in its performance. You don't need to worry about being in range at all, because there is no range for it. There are only 9 seconds of downtime between its duration and cooldown.

And it's broken because no matter if you use it completely outside the radar range, or if you use it within your own Warriors, the enemy hits C for closest target and you're screwed. That's no skill on their part, like an FPSer figuring out you aren't one of their own and then manually placing their targeting reticle on your head. Hitting C here has the computer attacking for you. Any goal for Incognito fooling the opposition is instantly destroyed because of one key on the keyboard.

The confusion was never due to your skill descriptions, arredondo. My concerns are that these two skills aren't as balanced or well-constructed as you think. The philosophy behind them is good, but your execution is very flawed, and it still is.

EDIT: Shadow Stalker should make you invisible to everyone except Ritualists. They don't use their physical eyes anyway, so it makes perfect sense they'd see Shadow Forms. And if they want to allow their team mates to see the Shadow Stalker Assassin:

I'd expect 10 or 15 energy cost, 1 or 2 second cast time, and a 20 second recharge.

So long henchies for VOD, cause of ninja gankers.

Forget auto crit...

how about 50% armor penetration for your next 3 attacks?

Autocritting every single hit is a little uh... Godlike? Or maybe ignoring all armor and treating the foe as having AL 0? lol for 3 hits though...

You still are creeping on an opponent from behind to get max potential damage... concealment is part of a separate skill (Incognito). The two go hand in hand when you are taking the offense to a target, but you can use it without Incognito if an enemy has been knocked down by a teammate. Simply attack him from behind as he rises and you get the same effect. It's not locked into one strat.

Critical Strikes gives you a max +7% chance of hitting Criticals... this gives you 100% after hitting them from behind. The restrictions (hit location and reduced speed) keep it fair.


I had Incognito to end once you use any spell or non-dagger skill to prevent non-Assassins from abusing it. If they simply want to wear the other colors and have the same radar dot color... who cares? If your team sees a group of similar colors come onto the radar in your direction, won't you know what's up? I mean, if your camp of 8 suddenly has 16, how do they have an advantage when they can't use non-Assassin abilities? It'll just be a normal fight.

As a way of making this even more of a non-issue... Incognito will now end if the user is the target of an attack or spell. Once the gig is up, there's no advantage to be had. The best way to use it will be one or two Assassins at most using their wits to get in undetected. It'll likey happen when both teams are within radar range because a lone player of any dot-color suddenly appearing on the enemy radar will raise suspicions.

This is the exact same issue with RtCW:ET... people aren't stupid when they see something strange. There is no way of getting to them without walking there until your aggro bubble reaches teleport range. So don't think of it as one player setting out alone from camp... things have to be more hectic and his team has to be in area range at least, with the defensive team spread out.

OK, is it broken because it's out of radar range for an unfair advantage or broken because it's easy to figure out with targeting? You're arguing both sides. I explained how the advantage of using the skill out of range isn't that great at all since as soon as the enemy sees one of its colors come to the edge of the radar, they'll know. As far as being targeted easily with 'C', yes it is possible, and I wouldn't have it any other way. The 'C' shows what is in your field of view. If the Assassin used the moment that the action is going hard all over the area he has a better shot at making it work.

People don't have team targeting or are tabbing every second of the match. As an assassin, you have to pick your timing to change clothes (hopefully undetected), slip in (running or teleport, explained below), and then do your damage. This can be done, start to opening hit, in five seconds or slightly less. That's enough time to get a good attempt.

You try to easily discount the FPS analogy, but honestly, you can't. You can be detected changing clothes in that game because you have to steal them from a dead enemy... the whole team gets alerted when this happens, and the dead guy spawns back later looking for the guy who took his clothes.

Forget tab targetting, a player can LOOK at you in disguise in that game and see you are a fake based on the weapons you carry (i.e. a medic with a silenced pistol). You are only a perfect match when you steal a spy's outfit from the other side, and still the ID tag won't show up as it does for friendlies. You can identify people in that game too, so don't try to discount it.

Anyway, in 5 seconds, you have a chance at a gank while Incognito. If you can get behind the back line without being noticed for those precious moments, the other team can't see you with 'C' as they look forward. Healers are looking at their team's health bars mostly, not tabbing for enemies.By the time the offensive primaries notice you as they are fighting up front, you should already be stabbing that enemy in the back of the head.



Yep, I missed that - I didn't want other classes coming Incognito for their skill sets. It's a work-in-progress so more revisions are needed... I'm not as bothered by Assassin skills used to their fullest, so the next revision allows Assassins to use any of their skills like Death Charge, etc. The rest was explained above; it's just as 'easy' to detect a disguised spy in RtCW:ET - just....as....easy. But still it had chances of working.

But still it can be done with success with a bit of observing the current focus of action, smart movement (with and without the disguise on) and a little luck. In GW, if you are behind a sand dune (visually blocked from view), change clothes via Incognito and then instantly Spirit Walk behind the back line while all the action is raging, you will NOT be easily detected, especially by the target. All you want is to begin hitting him - everyone knows you are there after that.

I didn't get it right the first few times and can continue revising it where I see fit - welcome to the same process Arena.net goes through when they plan new skills... some of theirs have actually made it into a final release broken, so no skin off my nose to keep revising mine.

Still, I disagree with the alarm you have towards use of these made-up skills as if they give such an overwhelming advantage or (at the same time) are completely worthless. I at least have some practice at seeing how the tactic works. Nothing in your imagination can discount actual experience that I have in BOTH games. The little tweaks here and there are needed - thanks for pointing them out. The overall concept is sound, fun, and fair... I only wish they'd put something similar in the game.

Incognito is a physical change in appearance. Only Assassins should easily detect, but for now I think the skill has enough to contend with. Shadow Stalker seems fine as it is, Incognito now reads:

Then the skill shouldn't be called Shadow Stalker, because it's no longer Shadow Stalking. It's nothing more than a Critical Rate boost coupled with a speed reduction. At least before, Shadow Stalker wasn't just a suped-up Critical Eye. It had a really interesting dynamic to it that set it apart from almost every Assassin skill in the game. Now there's really no point in even considering it Shadow Stalker, is there? That's what I'm getting at here.

I would have used Shadow Stalker if I could go into Shadow Form. Being able to become completely invisible was why it was an Elite. I couldn't care less about doing Criticals 100% of the time, because Assassins are going to be so incredibly deadly when people learn how to play them effectively, that even 7% from Critical Eye, combined with a high Critical Strikes, will make a 100% Critical rate completely unnecessary.

I never cared about Monks wanting to look like Warriors, though. And frankly, if a non-Assassin is wasting a skill slot with it...they shouldn't be playing in the first place. lol

See later on in my reply, in the portions about specialized WarHate.

Again, see later on, portions about specialized WarHate.

I certainly do. I'm constantly paying attention to where players are, how they're positioned, and most importantly, where they might be going. I would hope most players do that. The reason I can rock out interrupts with my Ranger is because I tab through a few targets, anticipating the Heal Sigs, Res Sigs, Troll Unguents, even Orisons of Healing. I'm not able to Distracting Shot the first Res Sig, then Savage Shot another one because of luck. I'm able to do it because I utilize Tab and Shift+Tab. If people don't know of the wonders of those two keys...I'm going to cry. lol

FPS: you're manually aiming with the mouse.

GW: you're using C and Tab to select targets.

I can very easily discount the FPS analogy here, because conceptually, it relates, but from a technical execution standpoint, the analogy falls apart. I'll say it again, something like Incognito works in an FPS because the computer isn't telling you who's an ally and who's trying to stab you in the face (unless the FPS has green and red targeting reticles). In GW, however, the computer absolutely tells you who's an ally and who's trying to shove a pair of daggers through your jaw.

Healers should never "mostly" be looking at their team's health bars. A healer doing that will get ganked. If the healer can't be bothered to look directly around them once in a while...again, they shouldn't be playing the game in the first place.

Hold on a sec.

The goal for this type of character is to blatantly run up to a Monk and kill them, right?

Their "cover" is really nothing more than a costume change that can be broken with something as simple as hitting C then hitting the space bar.

All it takes then is a Necro or Mesmer to throw any number of their Anti-Warrior hexes on that Assassin, just like they would a Sprint Warrior.

Incognito is just another Sprint. You're just making another Sprint Warrior...another cookie-cutter DPS juggernaut.

Does that happen with my suggestions regarding Shadow Stalker? The Assassin runs up then vanishes completely to start stalking. There's something new and dynamic there that can't be countered by simply hitting C and wanding. I'd like the counter to my version of Shadow Stalker to be Ritualists, honestly. It'd integrate the two classes in a very interesting way, and My Eyes Are Your Eyes is a perfect skill for Rit support, both in the team itself and in the Ritualist skill names.

But if you're facing anyone reasonably competent, the minute you run up--regardless of where you "changed clothes" (haha)--they're going to know something is up, and they're going to hit C to check.

Thing is, I know I wouldn't use these skills if major changes aren't made, and it sounds like others won't, as well.

It's not alarm, per se, it's just that I'm not convinced, because either you're not explaining things well enough, or I'm just completely incapable of deeper strategic thought, lol.

Don't get me wrong here. I'd love to see a Shadow Form thing happening.

But the problem is, well, one of the problems, is that you're comparing two completely different targeting systems. What works in an FPS works because those players aren't hitting C, and don't have the luxury of using Tab to select enemies.

Like I've said above, in FPS, the player has ultimate control over target selection--and they can make mistakes.

In GW, however, the targeting system we use (using C and Tab) is guided by the computer, and the computer is never, ever going to consider a disguised opposing Assassin as a member of your team.

Another problem is just logistics of something like Incognito. It'd only work in the middle of combat, which means you'd already be visible. That means the opposing team already knows you're around, and one of them probably would have you targeted already, because I know I wouldn't let an Assassin be able to do whatever without making sure I'm hexing them. They're so much deadlier than Warriors that if nobody on the opposing team has them covered, that team deserves to lose.

And so if you're already targeted, you know that a Necro or a Mesmer already sees you, and if you move behind a building, they'll suspect something. If they move on to a different target, at the very least they'll continue to keep their eye on you.

And what if you disappear? If you return as a green con? In an 8v8 setting, one character should always carry WarHate, and even as hectic as the battlefield can get, if "Warrior Castration" is what someone is specced into, they're going to be sticking by the squishy targets...and paying attention to what's approaching their squishy allies...including if one of their own characters runs up to their Monk(s). That'll raise the red flag, and bring some WarHate pretty quickly.

Logistically, Incognito doesn't make sense, because the Assassin isn't functioning as an Assassin; he's just playing pretend Warrior (quite literally if he ends up disguised as a Warrior).

And none of what I'm saying is in my "imagination," either. Everything I'm saying here, every problem with a skill like Incognito, are things I guarantee that I'd do to the Assassin who tries to use this skill, because I do most of it already, since I've been playing Necro and Mesmer more than any other class. I know what they can do, and I know the warning signs of a Warrior-Gank.

You may argue this Incognito thing isn't a Warrior-Gank, but it certainly is a War-Gank. You're just using an Assassin to do it, rather than an actual Warrior.

If an Assassin tries to use Incognito in an 8v8 with me on the opposing side, they won't get far at all, because the set-up required for it is absurdly obvious. The Assassin might as well use Local chat and tell me what he's doing. lol. You want Assassins in GW to use subterfuge and deception, fine. But Incognito is not the way to do it. Shadow Stalker with the Shadow Form clause is the way to do it.

I'm caring less and less about Incognito, heh. The wonder of Shadow Stalker's original idea has been sucked out completely now, and the idea of disguises is now nothing more than a lame James Bond-ish type of espionage with a skill that's nowhere near as compelling as Shadow Stalker used to be.

Shadow Stalker (in the version featuring Shadow Form) has the most potential to change the form of the game, because one, it operates in such a way that doesn't succumb to a straight-forward and sometimes boring targeting system (C and Tab), and two, its counters (I mean, come on...My Eyes Are Your Eyes is a perfect Ritualist skill) are far more dynamic and innovative than simply hitting C and wanding the target.

Incognito, however, does not, because it just disguises (no pun intended) a Sprint Warrior as a different character.

Lol, now you're nitpicking the name, which you partially settled on? Why call a Mesmer skill Archane Thievery when you can apparently Echo AT steal the same spell you supposedly already stole? Why call their skill Signet of Weariness since the opponent certainly doesn't look very weary to me after I use it...

The overall concept of the skills I put together for the Assassin are just a cool way to mimc what Assassins stereotypically do in some fashion. There's no perfect way, but together so far I think the effect is pretty decent in replicating that "experience".

Even if you can get up to 50% Crits, it is not 100% for that short duration of time you are ganking a victim in the back of the head. You may not use it... plenty of other Assassins would. Primal Rage is a new critical skill for the Warriors... it gets only as high as 50% and it is an elite. 100% with the ondition of being behind the enemy plus slowed down is balanced by 100% Criticals that open up with a super-strong attack to the back of an opponent.

I will make one name change however. I never cared too much for the name Merciless Cutthroat... I'll call it Assassin's Backstab:

+++++

You are the exception to the rule... maybe at the highest levels of play this tactic is not worth the trouble of being discovered and killed away from your support. A lot of skills in GW are not worth bringing at the top levels (even some professions are ignored by a lot of teams, lol).

If 80% of the masses are getting their jollies with setups like this, that is what "fun" is all about. More actual role-playing of a character's style should be encouraged with ideas like this.

In the FPS, you only have to LOOK at the screen to visually see differences between a disguised spy and a real teammate... I was VERY good at spotting them whether I was moving my mouse or not. If they are in the field of view, I only needed my eyes. In GW PvP, the 'C' mouse is literally an extra action you do NOT need in RtCW... it takes more effort in this game if it were possible.

Plus, not all players are hitting 'C' at all times, but you pretend as if they do. Most players, when engaged in their immediate circumstance (of almost any online game) ar e focused on the immediate circumstance unless something significant happens (sound of Fire Storm coming...). All a Assassin in this setup needs is 5 seconds to change (away from primary area of conflict), teleport over to the area while the team is distracted for a second, and then get behind the field of view while disguised so that the ''C' will not show them.

With those few precious seconds of opportunity, they go for the kill. Sometimes they will get caught, sometimes not. The fun will be in trying. Once they're attacked after discovery, the build loses a lot of it's power because the enemy knows to look out for spies. Then they will REALLY 'C' check even their buddies. The trade off is fair.

Tell that to the hundreds of enemies I killed from behind in RtCW.

Totally left field questions... "Blatantly run up" has never been close to any descrip I've written. Yes, you can be discovered... I've never said otherwise. Choose your costume change at a wise point on the field. If you just run around with it on, of course you'll be discovered. We're talking a FIVE SECOND WINDOW of opportunity to change, get in, and start back stabbing. There are plenty of chances to slip in with their movement skills in that span of time, before they start tossing Hexes and any other scenario you're trying to describe here.

You get one shot in the entire match to make it work (after that everyone knows that an Assassin has the Stalking skill set)... you will constantly second guess yoursellf as to if you are being closely watched while the battle is going on around you. You wait until all eyes are seemingly on a trouble spot then you try to make a move. That's what it is all about.


I've explained the window of opportunity enough times to answer this again. The way i have it works fine. I've played it, you haven't. In GW PvP, I actually "look" for moments now when I could try it out. There are plenty of small moments when I know it would've likely worked.

I've played this style before. You can successfully move on a target in disguise in a way that doesn't alarm a target who feels he's in a secured area with friends. You don't RUN up on them. You can even wait, while comfortably behind them, until they start a cast. Oppoertunity knocks where you look for it. My first post describing the scenarios of how it can work shows this. I don't hit the 'C' button every two seconds and don't know any players that do. The window is there - you refuse to admit it for some reason.

Lol, take your ball and go home then. I won't be making any more major changes.

I can only explain the same thing a dozen times before it gets old. You apparently have NOT played as a spy in disguise in RtCW:ET. I've played both it and GW extensively. I am very aware of general player tendacies and habits as I discuss stuff like this. More than half of the players still cast through Back Fire with no reliable healing support to count on... and you want me to believe that ganks won't pile up on the average users out there?

Very few are as hyper-observant as you claim to be with no simple way of backing it up... but I'll take you at your word. For YOU and your style of play. There are plenty of others who will leave plenty of opportunities to be surprised.

It's easier to see a disguise in RtCW:ET than it will be in GW. Moving on...

Fine, you have your strats down... good for you. That doesn't answer to the thousands of other players who have not mentally prepared for every single possibility in the game. This will be merely one of several tactics in GW that can be effective on mortals from time to time.

I'm not trying to create perfection. So far, I'm happy with the balance of something cool and unique for its class with the weaknesses of not being overpowered. It does enough things right for me to be pleased with the overall idea. If an Assassin is under constant survaillance, fine, he can't switch up and expect it to work. For everyone that stops him from changing, there'll be others caught by surprised. This is the real world of non-perfection we live in you know.

Which is the chance you'll take that all eyes are on you, and that sometimes NO eyes are on you. i mean how can you argue such a ridiculous concept?

Just today I was noticing how I came behind an opponent in the heat of battle with no special tricks at all... you really are making waaaaaaaay to much of your perfect scenarios where everyone is watching everyone at all times. I needed to recharge energy and wandered away from the heat of battle once my Distortion bored a Warrior who wen back to find an easier adrenal foe to beat on. -1 a whiff recharges more than you use up. After 10-12 seconds, I came back, and with players in different areas battling or running, there were plenty of chances for me to make a move. With Spirit Walk, more opportunities will arrive. All I need is a few seconds behind the target and it doesn't matter who sees me then.

Next time you play, try to get behind someone and simply melee pop them (usually as they are doing something else). Not necessarily the back line... you can surprise If you can't pull that off at least every other match then I don't know what to say because its too simple to do withOUT a disguise in this game.

A Mesmer eyeing a spell caster for a potential interrupt can be distracted even for three seconds to not notice a disguised "friendly' with the same color radar dot who Spirit Walked in just before he comes behind and attacks him. Yes, I know it won't happen against you with your ultra-awareness level... there are plenty of players who aren't as infallible if it happens to them.

Such is the chance one takes using these tactics. If priority one is heavily guarded, even specifically for this tactic by hanging back looking for Back Stabbers, then priority 2 or 3 may be fighting on the front lines. You may not even need a disguise. You lear playing sports that sometimes you take what the opponents will give you.

Lol, ok... Assassins are just Warriors. Gotcha.

Yes, forum theory has dispelled any chance of something working that works already in another game just fine. Again, I know your Spidey sense is always tingling... you will never convince me that the masses are just as aware even nearly as often. FIVE SECONDS is all that's needed; against "regular" players, that's plenty of time to get the first hit in.

For now, nothing needs changing. Thanks for the input.

Notes to myself, the three skills now read:

No, arredondo, I partially settled on Shadow Stalker back when the skill was actually using a shadow technique. Now, however, it's nothing more than a suped-up Critical Eye. I partially settled on Shadow Stalker because that's precisely what the skill was doing: you were stalking in a shadow form. Now, however, since the skill does absolutely nothing similar to what was originally suggested, I see no reason at all to continue calling it Shadow Stalker.

The fact that you believe an Assassin being able to 100% criticals is okay, just because the Assassin will be slowed down, and that 100% rate dependent on hitting a foe from behind...worries me.

I mean, we've all seen what the pre-built Fangs of Melandru build does, and that doesn't even have Critical Strikes. It barely gets critical hits because of that.

And yet it's one of the easiest--and most overpowered--builds in the game, whether compared to other pre-builts or player-designed builds. When Ranger/Assassins can kill characters within seconds already, do you honestly believe giving primary Assassins 100% Criticals with a small handful of "penalties" is balanced? You're talking about critical hits 100% of the time. If you wanted penalties to "balance" that out, that Assassin basically needs to get Blinded.

Well of Power being one of them, considering it's a PvE skill, lol.

But that's all Incognito will always be, anyway. Some role-playing ability, rather than a viable tactic used by serious players. It's a goof-off skill. Don't try to say it's anything more important than that. Suggest it because it's a fun idea to goof around with. Don't suggest it as a serious Assassin tactic.

If you can't see why FPS tech execution is different than GW's execution, and thus why your entire analogy is inherently flawed, there's no hope for you, and no hope for the skills you've suggested. That's the bottom line. A skill like that works in FPS because of the targeting system, the perspective itself, the total mouse control, etc. It's not even worth explaining this to you because you get lost in all the wrong details and never once step back and think about the broader concept I'm talking about.

I'm talking about GW, though. Your FPS experience as it relates to this discussion...doesn't relate, as much as you want to believe otherwise.

No, it is "blatantly run up." The hiding behind an object and trying to "sneak in" is irrelevant. There's a prep time that wastes your time, then you have a limited time frame for this skill. That means you can't delay--and delay is something I was never talking about in the first place. You go into the disguise, then get in range. And you can't get in range in 15 seconds by walking backwards. Sorry, man, but this entire tactic is completely dependent on blatantly running in. You can try to say it isn't, but consider how it'd be done in Guild Wars, and you'll see that there's no other way to use this skill.

And let's say it's possible to get in range while walking backwards. If the Monks are watching the field in addition to paying attention to their team's health bars, they'll know something isn't right when the full-health Elementalist begins moonwalking to them. Then all that's required there is simple targeting/calling. So much for Incognito being a dependable skill. lol

So let me get this straight...this is an entire skill slot (or two) that is useful only once. After that, it's been disabled for the rest of the match. The only point to a skill for Incognito is getting a quick kill. For getting a single-target gank. Ignoring the fact that Assassins can very quickly and easily get single-target ganks already, and much more faster than the absurd set-up time required for Incognito...what do you think this skill is going to add to the game?

It's not going to improve Assassin performance, and it sure as hell isn't going to make Assassin any more attractive to reluctant players. If they're turned off by the nature of the character, how is a more complex system going to get them interested?

And I seriously doubt the more veteran Assassin players would give Incognito a second glance. In the time it takes to properly prepare for Incognito, an experienced Assassin could have already gotten a kill and be working on a second one. For the Assassin focusing on kills (and really, what else does the Assassin focus on?), Incognito doesn't improve their chances; it just wastes their time.

And are you unable to just as easily exploit those moments using Fangs of Melandru? Who needs Incognito when the Assassin is more than capable of brutally killing without it?

Yes, I'm elevating myself as a God among players, right? Be sensible here. Your sarcasm and lame Spiderman references aren't as useful as you think. There's nothing that I do that other players can't do if they tried.

Bull. You obviously believe you've created a perfect skill here. If you didn't believe that, you wouldn't be talking about how powerful and dynamic the skill is. You wouldn't be going so far as to point to unrelated FPS experiences and claim they're proof something like this would work in GW when it clearly wouldn't. If you didn't believe you've created a perfect skill, or achieved perfection, you absolutely would not trying to pass off Incognito as something that doesn't turn Assassins into prototypical Sprint Warriors.

8v8. I know what Assassins can do, even just using regular skills. If people don't know what Assassins can do, they will, and then I guarantee you'll have at least a Necro throwing a hex or condition your way. And I'm not talking about "all eyes" being on the Assassin. I'm talking about the right eyes being on the Assassin. A Necro will ruin your day. In fact, a minimally comptent Necro should always be keeping an eye on any Assassins on the field, long before the Assassin does anything--because Assassins are so explosive when it comes to combat options.

Which is why I'm talking about the right eyes on the Assassin. Mesmers can do it, but if they're specced into CasterHate anyway, who the hell cares that you can Incognito your way in to gank them? Congratulations. You just killed a character that was never even looking at you in the first place. lol. Killing the Necro that's specced into WarHate, who's been keeping tabs on you from the very start of the match, however? If you can do that, then I'll give you a cookie.

Funny, that, because the Necro WarHate tends to protect the Monks, so if your Assassin decides it's more efficient to attack the Warriors up ahead, the Necro doesn't have to worry about you anymore, if your Warriors are still running in, that is. If that's not happening, then switching targets isn't doing anything to help you. It's just making that Necro's job that much easier.

When your suggestions here are having them just run up to a target? Yes, your Assassin becomes a pretend Warrior. You might as well be playing a Sprint Warrior if you're so in love with Incognito. lol

Don't expect anyone to take these skills seriously then. You still don't see how 100% Criticals is absurd, regardless of the "balance" penalties, and you never will. Let's hope this skill makes it in-game so it can get nerfed faster than you can defend it.

Now I get it. First it's so overpowered that it needs to be balanced. Then it's so worthless of a strat no one will fall for it. Next there is already a killer Assassin build that already slays really fast so what's the point. But this one is so strong, it uhm, kills too quickly. Of course disguises and radar color camoflauge is a waste of time with no obvious way of fooling the infinitely-observant masses out there. Keeping in mind that the masses playing other titles are obviously no where near as intelligent as they fall for it all the time. I've learned that this Assassin is always sprinting and running, despite me not using anything close to those words once. Except when he's walking backwards I guess.

It's a Warrior that can insta-kill with these overpowered abilities!
It's merely a useless blind-sider of the weak because otherwise observant eyes and shutdown are everywhere!

Despite all of this, it'll be nerfed the second it's released. And as worthless of an idea it is, it appears you love it so much that I inspired you to make one of your very own in a separate thread. ** Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. **

Genius of a post. Thanks for sharing.

Hmmm.....nope. No invisibility period. Imbalanced.

Not really. lol

Shadow Stalker (at 7 second duration with a 45-second recharge, plus 75% speed reduction) was the first topic. You'll find that I loved the idea, but felt the skill needed tweaking--and the tweaking was a buff.

Incognito was the focus of those points.

The set-up time for Incognito sucks. It gimps the build and doesn't offer any real alternative to the current builds we're seeing.

When you have a 100% Critical strike rate for your newer variations on Shadow Stalker? I'd say it's too damn powerful. And others have, as well.

If there's one thing I've learned in this game, it's that the idiot masses rarely determine suitable gameplay directions. We see the mindless ranting in Riverside Inn, right? Somebody whining about a Ranger babysitting them? How Rangers need to get nerfed, when they really don't? Same idea here. The whiners are simply morons with no real idea how to play, so they should never factor into a discussion about skill balance. lol

I'm very interested in seeing how the Incognito Assassin can get in range within the span of 15 seconds, given he or she needs at least 2-4 seconds to prep for the skill itself. Pretty much 5 seconds to prep the skill, then you're walking backwards to your enemies...and walking backwards isn't fast enough to get you where you need to go.

Oh, you can Spirit Walk. That's provided they're using any spirits at all. If they are, go you. You've just Spirit Walked behind enemy lines to use one skill the only time you'll ever be able to use it during a match, because right after you use it, they're onto you. Then that skill becomes a dead slot for the rest of the match. That's not a fair trade-off at all for being able to get a single kill when it probably won't even matter--or be necessary.

Why wouldn't it even be necessary? If you've saved the skill toward the end of the match, and have only a few enemies left, seems to me your team is in pretty good shape, and the battle is basically over. With less combatants on the field, the chaos that Incognito depends on is decreased dramatically, so there's no point in using it there.

There's also no point in using it there because if your team is in such a powerful position, you should have plenty of DPS available to deal with a few errant Warriors or Rangers.

There's no difference between the Incognito Assassin and a Sprint Warrior. You're playing them in exactly the same way: a character who is doing nothing more than running up to their target to perform a gank.

If you forgot about Incognito and went back to something remotely resembling your original Shadow Stalker, then you'd be suggesting a skill type that actually changes the dynamics of the game, rather than just keeps all the characters right there on the field, "disguised" in a weak costume change or not.

If a skill exploits the weak players so easily, how is it a good skill? It's a good skill when experienced players need to work at counters to it. If only the morons of the game fall for it, it's a completely useless skill. Incognito will only catch dumb players because only dumb players miss Warriors coming in...or walking in, or coming in backwards, etc.

With 100% Criticals? Yes, some of the lamer versions of Shadow Stalker here will get nerfed hard if any one of them makes it into the game.

Yes, because I like the original idea behind Shadow Stalker. I detest the crap you're pushing out throughout the course of this thread.

---

I applaud you on your efforts to try to spin my posts into mass contradictions, because it's fun being a spin-doctor, I know, lol, but as anyone can see from my reply here, I've remained pretty consistent with the focus of my criticisms and suggestions.

At the start of the thread, I felt that Shadow Stalker wasn't designed properly, that a 75% speed reduction was too much, that its duration was too low...that the skill was underpowered in those regards.

And my suggestions reflected the need to make the skill a viable tactic. Included in those suggestions were less of a speed reduction, a longer duration, a shorter recharge, and a minor speed boost at the start of the skill, so the Assassin can at least get to the target in time, and then subsequently vanish into thin air. It would dramatically raise the tension and contribute to whatever "role-playing" people want to see with Assassins. Assassins are masters of the shadows; it is only fitting they can hide in them for short periods of time.

When Incognito was introduced after the fact, and Shadow Stalker subsequently watered-down to become just some more powerful version of Critical Eye (Critical Eye being plenty powerful now currently, with no need for a "better" version of it), I began voicing those concerns.

Incognito is no improvement to the game, and it offers little to no actual new battle strategies, because all it comes down to is a Warrior running up to his target.

Nowhere is there any of the originality that comes with a skill like Shadow Stalker earlier in the thread.

With the first versions of Shadow Stalker, there was a gameplay dynamic that actually fit with what we see Assassins doing curently.

With Incognito, however, this is not the case, because instead of any type of Shadow techniques the Assassins are known for, we're given what amounts to a lame James Bond/Mission Impossible Spy Disguise skill. Mission Impossible sucks, and James Bond isn't much better. lol

Actually you are never invisible, just disguised. The radar map shows where you are, but the color will change once you switch outfits. The normal ways of attacking an Assassin in disguise work fine if you know one is in your presence. Targeting with an attack or spell cast will remove the outfit.