There was a thread floating around dealing with skills that shouldn't be elite, so I though, what about those skills that should be elite and are not. I will start things of here with a warrior skill, Final Thrust.
I bet a lot of people will disagree with me on this one, because a lot of people play sword warriors and want them to be as powerful as they can, but look at the warriors elite attack skills, and you will see that Final Thrust is just as good or betters them. Because of this your are able to reserve the elite slot for a skill such as Battle Rage, Flourish, Hundred Blades, or other elite skills. If it was made elite, it might then cost 8 or 9 adrenaline instead of 10. Remember this is a thread about skills that should be elite, so don't talk about how other warrior elite should be more powerful.
Skills that should be elite
Pantaloon
FireMarshal
If it were to be elite, it would have to lose the "Lose all adrenaline" mod before I'd ever use it.
The rest are fine IMO, if any were to be made Elite, it would need some boosts first...
The rest are fine IMO, if any were to be made Elite, it would need some boosts first...
Ensign
I rarely touch Final Thrust now. If it was elite it'd just be another junky elite that wouldn't see play. It's mediocre, why elite it?
What needs to be elite? Nothing, really. If I could elite anything it'd be Ether Lord - not because it's overpowered, but because it's an effect that pretty much has to be elite to be pumped to playable power levels.
Peace,
-CxE
What needs to be elite? Nothing, really. If I could elite anything it'd be Ether Lord - not because it's overpowered, but because it's an effect that pretty much has to be elite to be pumped to playable power levels.
Peace,
-CxE
Kadeton
Isn't the point of the Elite tag on skills to break up sets of skills that would be overpowered in combination? My impression was that Elite skills are not any better than normal skills, or at most only situationally better, until put into combination with another Elite, at which point the stacking of effects (or damage, or what-have-you) becomes greater than the sum of its parts.
Assuming that's the underlying theory of the Elite system, where's the deadly combo with Final Thrust? Which Elite would you combine it with to create overpowering synergy? It seems difficult to combo Final Thrust with anything, especially since it nukes all your adrenaline.
Assuming that's the underlying theory of the Elite system, where's the deadly combo with Final Thrust? Which Elite would you combine it with to create overpowering synergy? It seems difficult to combo Final Thrust with anything, especially since it nukes all your adrenaline.
Ensign
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Originally Posted by Kadeton
Isn't the point of the Elite tag on skills to break up sets of skills that would be overpowered in combination?
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Originally Posted by Kadeton
My impression was that Elite skills are not any better than normal skills
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Elites are cornerstone, abusive skills. If your elite doesn't feel abusive you're doing something wrong.
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Originally Posted by Kadeton
Assuming that's the underlying theory of the Elite system, where's the deadly combo with Final Thrust?
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Peace,
-CxE
Tiberius
In some cases yes, in others no. Take Energy Burn and Energy Surge for example.
EDIT: Whoops, beat me to it
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EDIT: Whoops, beat me to it
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WNxTyphoon
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u·biq·ui·tous Pronunciation Key (y-bkw-ts) adj.
Being or seeming to be everywhere at the same time; omnipresent: “plodded through the shadows fruitlessly like an ubiquitous spook” (Joseph Heller).
Now everyone thank dictionary.com
u·biq·ui·tous Pronunciation Key (y-bkw-ts) adj.
Being or seeming to be everywhere at the same time; omnipresent: “plodded through the shadows fruitlessly like an ubiquitous spook” (Joseph Heller).
Now everyone thank dictionary.com
Nudge
I see both your points, there have been occasions that people have found solo farming techniques with skills, and they have made the two skills elite to avoid issues. But they have also have upped the power of those skills. But there are flaws in both of your thinkings. if it were to get rid of combos, then why would adrenaline skills stack in a neat little row, with many being 7 or 8 adrenaline. Those are simply a matter of time before you have multiple heavy-hitting skills. also, if it were to simply up the power of a skill and make it a cornerstone, why isn't flare an elite? I feel like it's power is one-upped compared to skills from other skill lines like it: no cooldown, 5 mana, low cast time, 40 damage. 5 mana can be made up so quickly, a lousy E could become mediocre just simply by spamming such a spell. Such a thing cannot be achieved by stone daggers, ice spikes, lightning javelin, or even water trident (which has a longer cooldown than flare)
Scaphism
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Originally Posted by Nudge
why isn't flare an elite? I feel like it's power is one-upped compared to skills from other skill lines like it: no cooldown, 5 mana, low cast time, 40 damage.
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The fact that people even consider Flare to be a cornerstone of the fire elementalist line should be evidence of how horribly undereducated most people are about how the skill system works.
For those who don't know, you are spending 5 energy to do what any warrior or ranger does for no energy on a regular basis. Check out this table on skill effectiveness. Make sure not to overlook the energy duty on every skill, since if you think flare is a great skill, you must be playing with an infinite energy pool. Some values on the table are out of date, like Warrior's Cunning no longer provides armor penetration, but ignore those.
Hope this helps, and I hope all my enemies in the future decide to use flare against me.
StandardAI
Lol... Flare does what against a warrior? 10 damage? If they made flare elite they would have to make healing orison elite, or mind wrack.
Pantaloon
You guys comment on how Final Thrust makes you lose all adrenaline, but you would use your other adrenaline skills and then finish up with a final thrust, then its not like you lost much, maybe a couple of adrenaline. Since you used other attack skills first, if done in quick succession, it is likely that your target may be below 50% health making your final thrust do massive damage.
Nudge
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Originally Posted by Pantaloon
You guys comment on how Final Thrust makes you lose all adrenaline, but you would use your other adrenaline skills and then finish up with a final thrust, then its not like you lost much, maybe a couple of adrenaline. Since you used other attack skills first, if done in quick succession, it is likely that your target may be below 50% health making your final thrust do massive damage.
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And what I'm simply stating with flare is that it's more effective than all the other skills like it in the other skill lines, except it regens faster and costs less. Any elementalist with the proper energy pool who is waiting for his other skills to recharge would use flare, and use it a lot. What you don't notice is that flare does labeled damage at level 20 to many other casters, and it does so from a distance. If it's more effective than all the others like it, why shouldn't it be an elite?
ThePaper
OK you all seem to be arguing about final thrust now, so here is a skill that should be elite: Troll Ungent
I use it on my warrior, and it has saved me SO MANY times that the one time I took it off I died in 3 seconds. I actually put my stats into wild survival (I'm a WarRan just for that skill, and It has payed off a LOT. For those who don't know, troll ungent adds 4...6 (i think, somewhere around there) pips of HP (1 pip is 3 hp a sec I think?) Regen. Also note that I never got my char past lvl 11ish, since beta ended, so I'm not sure if it gets crappy (or mediocre) in time.
And now begins the arguing...
I use it on my warrior, and it has saved me SO MANY times that the one time I took it off I died in 3 seconds. I actually put my stats into wild survival (I'm a WarRan just for that skill, and It has payed off a LOT. For those who don't know, troll ungent adds 4...6 (i think, somewhere around there) pips of HP (1 pip is 3 hp a sec I think?) Regen. Also note that I never got my char past lvl 11ish, since beta ended, so I'm not sure if it gets crappy (or mediocre) in time.
And now begins the arguing...
Darc.Syde
no, 3 second cast time, and degeneration can counter it. it also heals slow, so it's possible to out damage the regeneration.
mostro
I thought that the game would be better off without the elite mechanic altogether. So why are we promoting more elite skills?
Ensign
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Originally Posted by Nudge
Any elementalist with the proper energy pool who is waiting for his other skills to recharge would use flare, and use it a lot.
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Originally Posted by Nudge
What you don't notice is that flare does labeled damage at level 20 to many other casters, and it does so from a distance.
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Originally Posted by Nudge
If it's more effective than all the others like it, why shouldn't it be an elite?
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It's more effective than what? Stone Daggers? Nope, Stone Daggers is better. Ice Spear? Debatable, Ice Spear does more damage at a shorter range. Lightning Strike? Strike at least autohits and does appreciably more damage than any of these.
More effective than Conjure + wand? Not even close.
What, exactly, is Flare more effective than? Standing there doing nothing?
Peace,
-CxE
Pantaloon
Ensign, I don't think you give flare enough credit. In around 4.5 seconds you could cast 3 flares at a cost of 15 ene and damage of 120+, and continue doing it since it has no recharge. I don't see what is so horrible about that, but I would have to agree that it is not elite worthy.
Troll Unguent is a nice spell, but because of its 3 second casting time, it is definitely not elite worthy. If you are making a Warrior Ranger just to use it, you might want you might want to have your secondary a monk and use healing breeze instead.
Troll Unguent is a nice spell, but because of its 3 second casting time, it is definitely not elite worthy. If you are making a Warrior Ranger just to use it, you might want you might want to have your secondary a monk and use healing breeze instead.
Darc.Syde
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| Troll Unguent is a nice spell, but because of its 3 second casting time, it is definitely not elite worthy. If you are making a Warrior Ranger just to use it, you might want you might want to have your secondary a monk and use healing breeze instead. |
Ensign
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Originally Posted by Pantaloon
In around 4.5 seconds you could cast 3 flares at a cost of 15 ene and damage of 120+, and continue doing it since it has no recharge.
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Similarly, at level 12, Conjure Element with a Fire Wand, assuming 10% criticals, will deal 104 damage.
That's a net difference of 13 damage for your 15 energy.
Would you use a skill that cost you 5 energy, but added 4 damage to your next attack? Then why would you use Flare?
Flare is a skill for FAS babies and severe head trauma patients, not people who understand second grade math.
Peace,
-CxE
Pantaloon
Are you taking into account the 1.75 time it will take to cast Conjure element, it also costs 10 energy, so you are down to a difference of 5 energy. Then you lose all enchantments. Also at level 12 fire flare does 40 damage, so the damage is 120 and not 117. I am also unclear as to if you need to take the full casting animation before the spell is cast, so it may be close to 4.5 seconds and not 5.25. If you are comparing the two skills it would be more like 5 energy for 16 damage or better (assuming you calculated everything correctly, did you forget the casting time for conjure flame, since you forgot its energy cost), with no side effect. So yes, I would use flare over Conjure Flame (or other elements). I also don't know the attack speed of wands, so I am unsure of your numbers.
Are you sure Healing Breeze would be easier to interrupt, after all, its casting time is 1 while Troll Urgent is 3. It just seems like the faster you can pull of a skill, the less chance their is of it being interrupted, and the faster you can get to healing yourself. Shatter enchantment could be a problem, but overall I would still think healing breeze is better. In a time of need that 3 second casting time could be your death.
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Originally Posted by Darc.Syde
actually, i would stick to troll. troll can't be interupted so easily, atleast, not as easy as breeze. troll also doesnt get your killed by shatter enchantment
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Zrave
The attack speed on wands is 1.75 seconds per attack.
The reason Ensign didn't include the conjure flame cost or casting time is that because of its 60 second duration, you can cast it say 10 seconds before engagement and all your energy will have regenerated by then.
As for the flare being release before the aftercast animation, well that's correct, but for the purposes of dps it is irrelevant.
The reason Ensign didn't include the conjure flame cost or casting time is that because of its 60 second duration, you can cast it say 10 seconds before engagement and all your energy will have regenerated by then.
As for the flare being release before the aftercast animation, well that's correct, but for the purposes of dps it is irrelevant.
Darc.Syde
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| Are you sure Healing Breeze would be easier to interrupt, after all, its casting time is 1 while Troll Urgent is 3. It just seems like the faster you can pull of a skill, the less chance their is of it being interrupted, and the faster you can get to healing yourself. Shatter enchantment could be a problem, but overall I would still think healing breeze is better. In a time of need that 3 second casting time could be your death. |
ThePaper
OK as for the healing breeze/Troll ungent argument, i personally took ungent since it is part of ranger, and i wanted to use a bow, not sure exactly if it is better than breeze, but as of yet i haven't had any problems with troll being interrupted, before or after casting and as for the HP regen counter, it doesn't really matter since that degen would kill any HP you got from an instant heal also. The only thing that should increase for it to be elite is probably the time it lasts (maybe longer with high levels), since i use it once then just hack away as usual. As for the flare dilemma, it works vs only 1 target, doing 117 (its 39 not 40) in 3 seconds while fireball random example) does 98 damage in an area in 3 seconds. That means flare will do the 117, while if fireball hits even just 2 people, it will do a total of 196 (+98 for each other person caught in it) with the same amount of mana with the same amount of time. There is the recharge tome, but you probably wont be using any spell only, so that just means 20 seconds of other spells you could be casting. If flare was made elite, a LOT of other spells would need to be made elite too.
Pantaloon
It is true that there are more moves to interrupt Spells then there are abilities, but there are still a lot that interrupt skills or both. Really, the only advantage is if you are fighting a mesmer who is interrupting your spells. It is likely that he would be interrupting a monk or another caster rather then you (a warrior). The majority of interrupts that other classes use interrupt an action rather then a spell or skill, this give a huge advantage to healing breeze since there is less time to interrupt it.
ThePaper, in PvE you probably wouldn't get interrupted. Even if you don't get interrupted though, it is still taking two seconds longer to cast, which is two seconds longer for you to get healed and two seconds longer before you can start attacking again.
I am also not arguing for Flare to be elite, I'm just saying its not utter crap like some people try to make it out to be.
ThePaper, in PvE you probably wouldn't get interrupted. Even if you don't get interrupted though, it is still taking two seconds longer to cast, which is two seconds longer for you to get healed and two seconds longer before you can start attacking again.
I am also not arguing for Flare to be elite, I'm just saying its not utter crap like some people try to make it out to be.
Trexton
im just going to say it before anyone else does... HEALING SEED! bwahahahhaa
whiskas
Backfire could be an elite. For 20 seconds everytime they cast a spell they take 100 dmg. Either they're dumb and spam flare (hahaha I've seen it so many times) and practically commit suicide, or they run around waiting for backfire to lose effect, or for the more prepared caster, they remove it themselves, still taking 100dmg. Its guaranteed most of the time to either shut them down for 20 seconds or do at least 100dmg.
Weezer_Blue
^ nerfed
lasts 10 seconds now.
lasts 10 seconds now.
Darc.Syde
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Originally Posted by Pantaloon
It is true that there are more moves to interrupt Spells then there are abilities, but there are still a lot that interrupt skills or both. Really, the only advantage is if you are fighting a mesmer who is interrupting your spells. It is likely that he would be interrupting a monk or another caster rather then you (a warrior). The majority of interrupts that other classes use interrupt an action rather then a spell or skill, this give a huge advantage to healing breeze since there is less time to interrupt it.
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well, its gone so off topic, i dont know anymore.
whiskas
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Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue
^ nerfed
lasts 10 seconds now. |
Hado
Apparently the general public never learned to use Remove Hex, which is why they had to nerf it.
Against halfway decent teams your hexes are going to get a few seconds of play at most. Since hexes cost so much more time and energy than hex removal options, you might as well be pouring energy down the drain.
Against halfway decent teams your hexes are going to get a few seconds of play at most. Since hexes cost so much more time and energy than hex removal options, you might as well be pouring energy down the drain.
Nash
This thread is turning out to be quite funny, in a tragicomic way.
ThePaper
I think someone mentioned that troll ungent uses less energy than healing breeze, which is very important for a warrior primary, since even that 5 energy is 1/4 of my energy! Also the 3 second cast time vs the 1 second one doesnt make much difference for a warrior, since they are designed to take damage.
Allmightybob
Phoenix, maybe
just because it can frontload damage so well.
But it would have to have its recast timer reduced if it was made elite.
I can't really think of anything that needs to be elite, Phoenix is just a really good skill imo.
just because it can frontload damage so well.
But it would have to have its recast timer reduced if it was made elite.
I can't really think of anything that needs to be elite, Phoenix is just a really good skill imo.
Sausaletus Rex
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Originally Posted by Nash
This thread is turning out to be quite funny, in a tragicomic way.
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If the point hasn't been made clear by now, continue to spend your 5 energy every 1.75 seconds to get 40 damage, I'll just be laughing over your corpses. It's always nice when the competition takes themselves out of the game without my even having to try.
5 energy every 1.75 seconds, of course, is 2.85 energy a second or just over 8 pips of degeneration. That means that you'll drain even the might Elementalist's energy reserves in about 30 seconds. Just standing there doing chip damage. Please, as a healer, I implore you keep casting Flare. Get two or three of your buddies to do it, too. It's not like I can keep up with that relentless onslaught of damage with just Orison...
No, I'm with Chuckles on this one. Why make more skills elite? It's an awful mechanic that should have been done away with a long time ago. It's probably here to stay at this point but we don't actually want to *encourage* that kind of thinking.
Odd Sock
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Originally Posted by Sausaletus Rex
Please, as a healer, I implore you keep casting Flare. Get two or three of your buddies to do it, too. It's not like I can keep up with that relentless onslaught of damage with just Orison...
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Those 2 skills should be elite if you want to add some more to the list. This way no one would use them.
Sausaletus Rex
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Originally Posted by Odd Sock
Careful what you wish for, I might pull out my Ice Spear and hurt you for a whoping 28 damage at half the normal range. Then I'll combo it with Rust.
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Originally Posted by Odd Sock
Those 2 skills should be elite if you want to add some more to the list. This way no one would use them.
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Although, people would probably flock to them because if they're elite they must be good!