Superior Runes...Worth it?

I am seeing all these high prices for superior runes, but am starting to wonder just how much better they are compared to minor runes. First off, excluding vigor runes, they get a -75Health.....That is pretty huge in my opinion, as a level 20 character will only have about 500 health....A single superior rune will take about rouhly 1/6 of the maximum health. Compare that to the benefit it gives you (for example: Absorption).
So how much does the superior absorption rune really absorb? to equal 75 health reduction, it would need to absorb approximately 4dmg every hit (lets assume on avg the warrior gets hit for 25dmg). 25-4=21dmg, so the warrior would die in 20 hits. (425 health because Sup rune took out 75). This would equal a total of roughly 80 damage points negated for the warrior (20*4). The net benefit would be a measly 5 hit points gained total (80-75).
Compare this to a minor absorption rune (lets assume it negates 1dmg point every hit). Again, assuming the avg dmg is 25, the warrior would need to get hit about 20 times to die. The net hit points gained total in this case would equal approxinmately 20 (1*20).
So am I missing something horribly here? To just equal the minor absorption rune, the superior rune would have to absorb 5dmg each hit. That is certainly a possibility. However, even at that point, it merely equals the minor one. Unless the Superior Rune absorbs 7-10dmg for each of the enemy's hit (I don't think it does, but people who have used this rune, plz give me your opinion), it will never be truly "superior" to its minor counterpart, and its price will never be justified.

Sorry, this was written late at night. I will look at it tommorow and fix it later if it makes no sense

I dunno about superior rune of absorption because i haven't found one yet, but i have found a major rune of absorption and theres no -HP on it, so I would guess that there would be no -HP on the superior one as well, if so then thats probably why people are asking so much for them.

NiV23

Correct, Vigor and Absorption have no HP penalties at any level. I personally don't think major and superior are worth the HP loss for any other runes, but that's just me.

lol what a horrible example I choose :/
Lets just change that to Axe Mastery than :/
Is the extra 2 axe mastery skills worth the 75 health sacrifice?

The answer to this is going to be a matter of preference..

If you look in the traders forum, you'll see people pay top $$ for these runes, so it would appear that some find them to be worth the sacrifice.

My suggestion would be that if you were going to suffer the - health affect, you would want to try to compensate for it in some way... for example, by having a fortitude upgrade on your weapon to give you + health. Or have a Vigor Rune on your armor also for + health. In this way you are offsetting the - health of the ax mastery rune to a certain extent.

Superior Runes give +3 to the attribute. I can't realy see too many that would be worth the life loss. You need to make sure that you get a really good Fortitude grip/hilt and a Superior Vigor and there you go.

Yeh it is worth it but only if you have as he said a good health grip and supirior vigor. For a warrior Im not sure what it would be good to put it in but it would be worth it cause we get an absorbtion rune.

YES! Superior Runes are worth it. Why? Because you can sell them for 10k

I love the superior rune... that extra 5-10 dmg / 1-2 seconds on an enchantment... oh yea, worth as much as they cost / how much health they take away...? I don't think they're worth quite the amount... i think it should be lowered by a little, but ill use it anyways... One superior rune per char, for the main attribute, and minor for the rest of attributes used...

I believe the superior is worth it, because i needed a major rune of earth mastery to keep my ward vs melee up indefinately, and well... from minor to major, its a -50 difference, and from major to superior its a -25 difference... so i just took the one that was "more" worth it, for the health loss.

Now my only problem is getting one of the superior vigor runes (Not gonna happen for 70k)... which ive seen plenty of poeple sell it for.

Superior runes are only valuable to those who need it. someone who stacks themselves with sup runes of every attribute would have a very powerful character skill wise--but would crumble from one or two hits due to the health minuses. BUt it would be invaluable to someone who has the "perfect" build for themselves but they only need that extra 1 or 2 points in a particular attribute that they cannot find anywhere else to cut back on.

Looking at most of the well thought out builds--they usually need either a major or sup rune of one attribute to get their desired stats.

If you have all your pts spent and tactics at 6 but find some awesome shield that has a requirement of 9. You would probably seriously consider getting a sup rune of tactics to bump you up without having to take away from your other attributes. Like I said though--if later you got a sword with the same type of situation--taking ANOTHER sup rune for a total of 150hp loss would more than likely be out of the question for you. It depends on how you have your build--and what other gear and bonuses you have at the time you would need/want to consider adding a sup rune to your equipment.

It's all a matter of build and prefferance. I am a minion master Necromancer with a Superior rune of death magic, and a major soul reaping(until I can find a superior). With my staff and rune of dm, I create lvl 18-19 bone horrors....most people would say that is overkill and there is not enough differance between 16-17 and 18-19, but there truly is. The fact that i can keep 10+ high lvl horrors easily alive at a time, allows me to go to most places and be there with only a monk. I do also run a rune of vigor in order to counteract part of the hp loss.

Again, I think the biggest thing is class. Any type of magic user that is away from most of the heavy battle, is going to be hurt a lot less by the hp loss than say a warrior who is in the middle of it. The other consideration is armor. If you have max armor, you won't take as much damage, thus the hp loss isn't as big of a deal.

Class is key but also whether you're a target or not. A superior rune with a health defecit for a monk is just stupid. Based on primary classes, here's my opinion on the targeting list:

Monk
Mesmer
Elementalist
Ranger
Warrior
Necro

Ranger and Elementalist probably swap depending on what kind of ranger you're up against or elementalist. That said, Necros and Warriors should probably use the superior runes (especially the necro) to make people pay for ignoring them as dangerous targets.

I agree. It really does depend on class.

I honestly feel that NO MONK should ever use ANY rune higher than minor, except vigor. trust me... you are going to need all the HP you can get WITHOUT sacrifing even more energy recovery, unless you have a special build.


Jana

Elementalists and Warriors will want superior runes. Monks will not. Rangers might depending on your build.

Warriors definitely want them because they already have the best armor, absorption runes, and they are the last to get focused. So if you're a hammer warrior you want to get your hands on a Super Hammer Rune, ditto for swords and axe. If you're a spike damage air ele you want a super air rune for maximum spike damage.

In general if your main purpose is to dish out damage you want a rune that complements that regardless of the health loss.

Never say never, almost all of the Superior Runes can be used in certain builds. There are some I would consider unlikely (Soul Reaping for one), but the statement that you should not use non-Vigor Superior Runes on monks is incorrect IMO. This is not to say that we always run Superiors on healers, but rather that there are some very good reasons to do so at times.

Using Earth Magic as an example... some builds can make very large gains.. especially on skills that have a large impact per point.

A few skills at level 13:
Armor of Earth : 55 armor -18% speed
Kinetic Armor : 36 armor
Crystal Wave : 88 damage AOE
Obsidian Flame : 100 damage

At level 15:
Armor of Earth: 60 armor -14% speed
Kinetic Armor: 40 armor
Crystal Wave: 100 damge AOE
Obsidian Flame: 112 damage

The +9 armor and 4% faster speed alone make up for the -75 hp, not to mention the greatly enhanced damage.

Even on a warrior I would very likely take a weapon skill to 8 or 9 and bump it to 12 with a sup rune.

I dunno about Sup runes since I'm a Ranger, I think I might use one if I find a Vigor Rune to counter the health minus, just to keep my Marksmanship up at 14-15 and get around 40 attribute points to spend on other things.

I'll often find that using a superior healing or protection rune is worth the sacrifice for a monk. In an average high-level battle, I'd say my monk goes through tens of thousands of damage- in that light, 75 health is a small price to pay when every heal I'm putting out is getting that extra 5-6 health. Some skills can benefit from that lower life total(like protective spirit), and there's very few times when 75 more health would make much of a difference, but having less effective heals doesn't. That's not to say that I'll use a major or superior on every monk, or even the majority of them, but depending on what I'm trying to do with my character, it can be worthwhile.

As for what superior runes do, they essentially give you a lot of extra attribute points. It costs 20 attribute points to go from 11 to 12, 1/10 of your total points, and 16 to go from 10 to 11 in an attribute. So in an attribute where you have 9 ranks, a superior rune will be equivalent to 36 extra attribute points over a minor, or a 18% increase in your overall number of attribute points. They also allow you to reach higher attribute levels, making them very nice for highly-specialized characters. A level 16 Air Magic will be much more effective than a level 14 Air Magic, for instance.

I will shy away from using multiple Major/Superior runes on a character, however, simply because losing too much life does make you significantly more vulnerable to spike damage. Overall, I find that with a superior rune and a superior vigor, you're not in bad shape, but it's not good to sacrifice too much in the way of maximum health, or you become too fragile. Of course, the class of character you are playing makes a significant difference too- a Warrior in PvP doesn't have to worry nearly as much about the amount of life they have, simply due to the fact that you're not going to be attacked much- once a good team starts targetting you, that means that most or all of your casters are dead, at which point it generally doesn't matter much if you have 75 less health than you otherwise would.

thx for all the replys guys

I my opinion I would stick with minor runes until you can afford or get a superior vigor rune. When you do have one I would only have one other superior rune as the -75 is too taxing. I would also stay away from the majors as if minors dont have -25 health I dont really see the point in them.

a smiting build monk with 16 in smiting prayers can really hurt. i use a minor vigor rune, plus a +19 hale staff head and +20 fortitude wrapping, and it's not so bad.

since holy damage ignores armor, smiting prayers with high damage can be really powerful. my banish does 58 damage, and double that against undead monsters.

I'm a Warrior/Elementalist and I don't think I'd apply a Superior or a Major Rune YET, cos there's one thing that bothers me about this game. Unless I am missing something (if so please correct me) but you can let everyone know your HP status and your Energey status but there is no way of knowing your Armor status unless you go and count it all up, runes and extra's on weapons included.

So I pose the question, what is the role of a Warrior in Guild Wars? I played Everquest 2 and it was clearly defined that in a group, a Warrior is a tank. Highest AC followed then by Highest HP.. that's the guy you want.

In Guild Wars I've yet to be able to see some sort of Aggro control (ie I pull and they come to me via aggro circle, area attack etc.) If one of your group attracts a monster, then they scatter all over the place. Obviously I'm new to this and maybe I'm whining cos in EQ2 it was simple to get aggro, hold aggro and if the situation required it, know exactly how to stop your char aggroing stuff you shouldn't be.
I'm aware this is a different game BUT, the posts on this matter have mentioned that Warriors should be going for superior runes because they can take the health penalties. Clearly this means that Warriors stop being meatshields and become damage dealers. That's fine, because if there's one thing I've noticed in this game, ANY class can solo.

So is it better for Warriors to take a health drop and become level with other classes such as Mesmers, or should Warriors steer clear and keep as main tanks and let the other classes take the penalties to be able to deal more damage. Maybe my mind is too set in the Tank, Caster, Dps mode that I used in EQ2, but I don't know if it's the same sort of thing for ALL the MMORPG's.

Since there doesn't seem to be set rules or positions for classes in groups, I'd say maybe Warriors can take the chance to be able to deal more damage. Cos I guess at the end of the day, what you kill can't hurt you. But does anyone else wonder about the looseness of roles in a group? I understand skill requirements in a group ie Degen skills and ranged attacks.. but a lot of classes share a lot of skills.

What should a warrior be doing in a group. Maintaining high HP so to be a meatshield? Or to take a compramise to deal more damage. I'd like to hear some thoughts and feel free to correct me. I've played this game for over 150 hours and I like learning new things so I'm open to all that.