Why the Conjure nerf was a bad idea.

For one, it's made the game more dependant on items, which isn't good. A skill now requires you to have a certain item to use, that can't be right...

Also, why would you want to take an elemental hilt (or string, whatever) over a Zealous hilt? It's just not smart, so now the skill is pretty pointless to anyone but those who don't know about the uses of a Zealous upgrade. Conjure/Zealous is now viable for only Dragon Swords, since they have inherent fire damage. This means favoring 2 already overused skill lines; Sword and Fire.

The nerf was executed poorly, and the issues with Conjure could be handled in a much better way... Instead of forcing you to have a certain hilt, why not just have it part of the spell, that it converts your current damage type to whatever elemental damage of the Conjure you're using?

Conjure Flame
Lose all enchantments. For 60 seconds, your attacks do fire damage and strike for an additional 1-13 damage.

Conjure Lightning
Lose all enchantments. For 60 seconds, your attacks do lightning damage and strike for an additional 1-13 damage.

Conjure Frost
Lose all enchantments. For 60 seconds, your attacks do cold damage and strike for an additional 1-13 damage.

That isn't exactly a nerf then is it nash? I actually like how they worked the nerf in, this way there is a good tradeoff that you have to sacrifice energy to get the extra damage of the conjure. I'm not sold on it though, because it does have all the drawbacks you mentioned as well, and the dragon sword loophole.

Right now conjures are the only way to get a max dps, and there should be some sort of major drawback involved with boosting your dps as significantly as conjures let you.

Stacking Barbs + Weaken Armor gives you more damage than Conjure. Sure, it's just one skill compared to two, and so on... But claiming you need it to max out your DPS isn't true.

Atleast the latest nerf was not the way to go.

Um, I need clarification on the term "nerf". I'd seen it before and thought it was gamer slang for "removed, without warning or explaination" but the way y'all are using it here that doesn't seem to be right.

Dave III

Nerf this!

nerf means weaking, in general. Think of the nerf toy.

As for the topic at hand, I think that stacking buffs was a problem and the devs realized this. I'm not saying that this is the solution I would have chosen, but I'll live with it.

About the zealous mod being better than having a conjured weapon, now that is a problem with the zealous mod, isn't it?

You suggesting they nerf Zealous?

Ah, Thank you. Now I know. And knowing is half the battle. ^_^

Dave III

Consider it this way. As a Warrior or a Ranger is there ever a situation where you'd consider another upgrade besides Zealous? If not, there's a problem.

GI Joe!!!

At least Dragon Swords look the coolest...

Well, is that problem that Zealous is too good, or that the others are bad, is another question.

Right. It could be that everything else is sitting too low. It could be that Zealous is standing too high. But if it's heads and shoulders above everything else, it's indicitive that something's wrong somewhere. If you fix it by nerfing it or by buffing everything else, it doesn't matter. It's the imbalance of power that's the concern. If you have a variety of item mods you want to create a diverse scene where people can have actual options. If one's the clear-cut winner then there's no diversity there's just a right way and a wrong way of doing things. It's degenerative and that's the problem.

Personally, I'd say it's pretty hard to buff everything up because energy is that huge. Properly played a Zealous grip can give just a Warrior a caster's level of regeneration. You'd have to make the other grips extremely powerful to make people consider leaving that alone. But it's a bit hard to dip a Zealous grip a lot lower than what it is - the problem's at the high end where people are cutting every corner they can, for a novice player that +1 en per hit is probably pretty well balanced. It's just htat it's very abuseable if you know what you're doing. I don't know how to solve it. But then again, it's not my job to solve the problem, the devs get paid for such things, not me and I'll leave it in their hands as long as I can point out that there *is* a problem.

Well, the other upgrades are pretty pointless, I can't think of one useful. Course, I haven't seen all upgrades though (is there a list?).

last i heard, GWG was working on one.

Seems to be Conjure used to be more powerful, like (1..17) instead of (1..13) or something like that. When they nerfed the damage, I assumed it was because of how useful that was to a W/E and the like. The way it works now, however, I wonder if bumping the damage back up might help bring balance. If Conjure were more powerful, an elemental hilt might start looking more attractive than a zealous one...

yeah the other bonuses are all rather minor in comparison.

Off the top of my head, we have (not sure which pieces have what)

+30 health
+4 armor
+4 armor against physical (higher?)
+4 armor against elemental (higher?)
+% damage against a species
+4 vampiric, -1 health regeneration
+1 energy gain, -1 energy regeneration
elemental mods
lengthen conditions (specific)
lengthen hexes
lengthen enchantments
+8% speed, -% critical

If anything, I think Dragon Swords are just the tip of the iceburg for weapons... Perhaps we'll have other Elemental Swords and such with "cool looks"... Makes sense that they'd carry the idea of the Dragon sword over to other weapons, even bows... perhaps there's even a flaming bow we have yet to see?

I think it's still too early to judge the balance of the items as we've yet to see them all. Well, some of us may know more about this than others...

The "cool stuff" (weapons, items, armor, etc.) are where I think the bulk of the reward system should cover: since there's a level cap (And I think it's a really good idea, so we don't need to go into that old chestnut again), then "Bragging Rights" becomes the primary reward for playing the game. The Dragon sword doesn't have to be any better than the average "best sword you can buy", it just has to look cooler and be the reward for some ridiculous challenge that only someone who really wanted it would go through. Which would leave out a lot of the l33t n00bs, since they would only want it, not be willing to work for it.

At least, that's the way it'd happen in Dave Land. ^_^

Dave III

That's the one thing about this change that I don't care for - you get to work around it simply by using the right piece of equipment. The fact that it's an absurdly popular piece of equipment doesn't help.


Because that wouldn't really be a nerf. The idea was to limit the applicability of a Conjure, to force a Warrior or Ranger to make sacrifices if he wanted to use it. Just changing your damage type to elemental damage wouldn't have been an effective nerf. We're trying to fight off buff stacking here, after all.

I'd have still rather just hit the damage, but this nerf would have been ok if not for the Dragon Sword loophole.


It also costs you a ton of time and energy, is particularly vulnerable to removal, and is horrendously inflexible when it comes to changing targets or adjusting to new tactical situations. The net result is that Barbs and Weaken Armor are PvE skills, while Conjures are the best damage amplifiers available.


As a Ranger I'd want to have a selection of Zealous, Vampiric, and Ebon weapons. Sundering weapons obviously have a place, but that's as more of a 'safe' choice than a power choice. I'd want one but it's a fallback option. Warriors want Zealous and Vampiric weapons, both Dragon and non-Dragon versions. Again, I'd like to have a Sundering weapon as weapon #4, but it's tricky to squeeze in with all the situational weapons you want.

If I only got one weapon it'd be a Zealous one 90% of the time - energy is just that important. But it's similarly important to have fallback plans, as evasion or blocking can make switching to even a normal weapon more reasonable.


Upgrade parts I know of:

Hilts/Hafts/Strings:

Ebon: Earth damage
Fiery: Fire damage
Icy: Cold damage
Shocking: Lightning damage
Furious: 20% Chance of double adrenaline on hit
Barbed: Lengthens Bleeding duration
Crippling: Lengthens Crippled duration
Cruel: Lengthens Deep Wound duration
Heavy: Lengthens Weakness duration
Poisoner's: Lengthens Poison duration
Zealous: +1 energy gain per hit, -1 energy regeneration
Vampiric: +4 health stolen per hit, -1 health regeneration
Sundering: +10% Armor Penetration


Pommels/Grips:

Warding: +8 Defense vs. Physical
Shelter: +8 Defense vs. Elemental
Defense: +4 Defense
Fortitude: +30 Health
Swiftness: +10% attack speed, -% criticals (removed from game?)
Enchanting: +20% enchantment duration
Attribute: 20% chance of +1 to attribute when using skills
Monsterslaying: +% damage vs. species (can't say I paid much attention)

I never saw the lengthens hex duration upgrade - anyone confirm it or its name?

Peace,
-CxE

And why not? Seems most of the others damage buffs for Warriors/Rangers are for physical damage.

I'm a little lost here, but what would be the advantage to using Ebon weapons as a ranger? Also, could someone explain the Dragon Sword loophole because I'm missing that as well.

Ebon weapons do earth damage. Almost no one has armor that gives extra resistance to earth damage. Elementalist Geomancer armor is one of the rare sets of armor that does- but they are horribly unpopular. In an envinronment where we have many fanboys claiming how superior flare is, and where searing heat and rodgorts invocation are two of the most popular PVP spells, despite being worse in every case to the alternatives, which would you pick? Armor that gives resistance for fire, or armor with resistance to earth?

That's why a ranger (and warriors) want to use weapons with earth damage.

Dragon Sword Loophole:
Standard weapons have 2 possible upgrade slots.
Swords have an upgradable hilt and upgradable pommel.
Hilt pieces include the elemental modifications and zealous upgrade.

Dragon swords come with 2 upgrade slots, but they already have inherent fire damage, which means you can put a zealous upgrade in the hilt, giving you a fiery zealous weapon. That's impossible to do on a normal sword because they occupy the same upgrade slot. Therefore you can have a weapon capable of benefitting from conjure flame and at the same time giving you the benefit of +energy on hit; that's the loophole, on a weapon that's already absurdly popular on looks alone.

I'm a bit confused as to what the actual nerf was. I remember casting Conjure FIRST then everything else to stack my buffs. What exactly was different again, sorry if i missed it. You just came out with a complaint about nerfing but didn't really show what it was previously. (Outside a small damage reduction)

Read Scaphism's post again. Regular weapons (swords) can only be upgraded with either elemental upgrade (adds elemental damage) or zealous upgrade (add +energy per attack). The current conjure can only be used on weapons with elemental damage, so you can only use conjure on weapons with elemental upgrade. Gone are the days where you can use conjure on weapons with zealous upgrade.

Except for the dragon sword, which already have fire damage even without any upgrades...

I agree with you that the Conjure nerfs were a step backwards in gameplay.

People were using them not because they were uber, it was because the alternatives were just so bad (take Weaken Armor and Barbs for example, with 30 second recasts they are virtually unplayable in PVP). In general, Enchantment stacking is fine, especially with skills like Conjure Element that take an eternity to recast once removed. There aren't enough good ways to deal damage, anyway. In higher levels of play, purely offensive teams will always lose out to a team that focuses all their resources on high defense (which includes mass monk healing enchants, damage mitigating enchants etc) and I don't think that's balance.

In case you're wondering, my problem lies with removing all the low recast, low cost enchants..there just aren't any effective enchantment removal options to counter a team based on that.

We discussed the thought that enchantment removal was not up to par yet on your other thread (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=1600). But yea, that is why I suggested that we need some kind of an enchantment removal similar to Remove Hex.

i kinda like the change. it does balance things out with warriors and rangers for the most part.

there are other ways to control your energy with both of these charater types.

its all about build preference to me. you can sacrifise the zealous mod just to use conjure skill. if you dont want the sacrifise then keep the zealous sword or bow. thats the balance. you cant have your cake and eat it too.
hehe.

as a warrior lets remeber your role as a teammate, your not there to be the killer on the team, your there as a nusance. somebody who can stand there and take some blows for your casters so they can do the killing while you look like your killing something. with a warrior, go into battle with some defensive skills to keep some pressure off your monks. the less they have to heal you the warrior the more sucess your team can have. you will get your heavy blows in when your target begins to fallback, give it patience.

or, just get a dragon sword. and the only way to do that is to quit your pvp only character and make a pve character.

I agree with Ensign, in my opinion this was a way to fight the buff.. example: the Order of the XXXX spells now only work with non-elemental weapons... so you can't have Order and Conjure working at the same time...

Oh, I understand now. If they remove the fire damage from the Dragon Sword then I think the Conjures will be fine. However its bad to give one particular weapon a distinct advantage.

My suggestion is equally effective at countering that. And I'd have to say I think mine is better.

The issue is complicated by the fact that you'll have to grind with a PvE char to get a perfect Dragon sword + the mods you require for a specific build, then trade it with your PvP char. I'd be happy with the situation if they just didn't allow PvP chars to trade at all, but as it is, you're combining the rewards of grind with the ease of making a PvP char with a perfect setup.

Vampiric is +5/-1 for hammers, +3/-1 for axes and swords

Currently not in the game. People may still have IAS mods, but they don't drop anymore.

Doesn't exist as far as I know. You can get +damage vs hexed foe, but not +hex duration.

Here is a list of modifiers from GW Online.

http://www.gwonline.net/page.php?p=125

Lengthens Hex would be a ridiculous mod. Think about a extra long Backfire. You could really sway a battle if you can keep Backfire on a monk without using an Echo or Quickening Zephyr as well.

Well, PvP equipment is a work in progress anyway - I like being able to just out and make characters like that but their equipment is just so much better than what most people will find in a reasonable timeframe. We're not just talking good rares, but good rares with upgrade space, and low requirements to boot. Most of the 16 AL shields I saw had a 12-13 attribute requirement - why is that the case when a PvP shield comes with a 9 req?

The new PvP character system is clearly a step in the right direction, but this is one of those issues they need to iron out. People shouldn't feel like their PvE characters are just bad versions of a ready-made PvP character with the same skills.


Excellent change. Where do bows fit?


It looks like they've cut down on the number of modifiers in the game something fierce. I can't argue with that. I still have to wonder what 'plantslaying' is doing in there, but I guess they have to give some nod to the PvP side of things. =)

Peace,
-CxE

Definately. An RP character with a decent number of hours pumped into it (say a toon that's run the entire campaign + a majority of explorable areas) should be at a slight advantage equipment-wise to a PvP char. They need that to make up for how resitriced they are in other areas, like skill availability, difficulty in retooling attribute and equipment wise, etc.

The Dragon Sword is a good example of something that should be available to RP characters but not PvP characters. You're essentially giving that toon an extra mod for free to compensate for the fact that they can't just completely retool between rounds, with new armor, runes, mods and so on, and it's really one of the few ways you can stop RP chars being totally sub-standard in PvP under the new system.

+5/-1

Right, there need to be little perks to RP characters to make up for the fact that they can't be re-rolled at a moment's notice. Things like the Dragon Sword are one thing - modifiers or weapon mod combinations that aren't available on PvP characters are another. I also noticed that you couldn't unlock Major/Superior Vigor runes, which is also a plus.

In order for any of this to matter, RP characters need to have access to these items, though. Sure, a RP character can build up an advantage by actually using all 4 of his weapon groups, but that doesn't mean anything if he can't find a weapon as good as what they give a PvP character.

It's a careful balance - they want PvP characters to be competitive, but they don't want people to feel like their RP characters are gimped for PvP. What we saw during the BWE was a fresh system, though, I'm sure the kinks are still being ironed out.

Peace,
-CxE

Absolutely wrong. If there is ANY advantage of RP char over PvP char, then it means that you need to gring RP chars to be competitive. So it kills all idea of using PvP chars to PvP without a constant grinding.

I recall hex duration mods some bwes ago, I guess they were removed. They were for weapons just like enchants mod.

So RP characters should always be at a disadvantage? I'm 100% certain that is not what the devs want. They're trying to develop a system that appeases both camp and yet does not result in a wholely segregated community.

Besides, people aren't going to grind 100-200 hours, to get 1 extra mod on a weapon, only to have their build become obsolete a week later. I doubt you'll ever see an RP character in top tier PvP, even if you let them have a "free" mod on a weapon. The returns just aren't there for the time invested, and the returns are too easily nullified by changes in the metagame.

I want to see a situation where a good RP toon is competitive in your average casual PvP matchup. For that to happen, they need to have some advantages to combat their inherintly static nature.

Ummm... sure? I remember that the last beta weekend, i unlocked a major vigor rune which was usable for my pvp created character. I'm pretty sure it was the major one and not the minor rune as i had 551 health on my caster after the creation. I used a wand that added some 30 health too. Didn't find any superior runes so don't really know about those though. Is being able to use a major rune a bug then?