I'd like to start off by apologizing for how I acted towards Ending, Principa, and the members of the trade forum.
That being said I'll try to post a suggestion the correct way.
The 24 hour rule still needs changed. Ignoring the fact that no one does abide by it, it doesn't help in anyway. When a thread is closed the person either was done and doesn't repost it, reposts it right away, or waits a bit then reposts it. If it's the first one and he was done then it would have died on it's own just as if it was closed. If he reposts it right away and it isn't noticed then all you've done was add 1 more closed thread to the forum, if it is noticed then it's closed and he reposts it later. If he reposts it later then the same thing happens.
What's the point? None of this is helping spam, if anything, it's making it worse.
The problem with telling people to edit things in that they wish to add is that it doesn't help.
If you've already read a thread you aren't going to re-read it every time to look for anything that may have been edited in. PMing doesn't work either, sure if 1 person has a question you can just PM them, but if 1 person has a question others are probably wondering the same thing. You can't PM them all, nor can you know who wants to know.
I don't see how this rule could work. You give people too much credit, 1 mod closing a few threads breaking this rule isn't very intimidating. People aren't going to start suddenly following this rule, not that I think it would help if they did. Even if people did start following it, with all the new members coming people would still be breaking it constantly. It's like having speed limits but no cops, who's going to listen, why listen?
What I think you should do is add more mods to enforce the rules, and alter them so that they work.
Instead of closing all threads that the starter posts within 24 hours of making, close threads where the maker bumps within 24 hours just to get his up higher.
Don't close threads where the thread starter asks or answers a question.
You can easily tell who has a real reason to bump and who doesn't.
Then if people have no real reason to bump they have to wait 24 hours.
I'm seeing plenty of good threads with lots of offers just being closed because the starter had to answer something.
Thank you for your time.
The correct presentation about the 24 hour rule!
MCS
RepinsMirg
I would like the rule if it was more stongly enforced but as it is now only a few people get caught and the rest go unpunished while the people who follow the rule end up on the third or fourth page.
Principa Discordia
Some people have the decency to follow a rule or guideline wether it is enforced or not. Enforcement is a complete non-issue here, as we don't have an unlimited amount of moderators and we don't have a single moderator with an unlimited amount of free time.
Personally, I'd like the rule to be less inclusive. I don't mind if the person hosting the auction replies to bidders in the topic within 24 hours, but I do mind "bump", "up to the top", "up you go" type posts.
However, it is not up to me as I am not a moderator on Ventari's Sell, but EnDinG is. If the administrators see no reason to change the rule, then neither do I, but now that you've come to voice your consern in a mature fashion, maybe they'll review it.
Personally, I'd like the rule to be less inclusive. I don't mind if the person hosting the auction replies to bidders in the topic within 24 hours, but I do mind "bump", "up to the top", "up you go" type posts.
However, it is not up to me as I am not a moderator on Ventari's Sell, but EnDinG is. If the administrators see no reason to change the rule, then neither do I, but now that you've come to voice your consern in a mature fashion, maybe they'll review it.
Dreamsmith
Quote:
Originally Posted by MCS
Quote: I'm seeing plenty of good threads with lots of offers just being closed because the starter had to answer something. If the thread author has to answer something, it's because he left out information buyers needed to know from his or her original post. The author should edit that post to include said information, and, if necessary, PM the person who asked for it. The thread author shouldn't use this as an excuse to bump a thread. Indeed, if we took your suggestion, it would encourage people to be vague or leave out essential information from their inital post, thus providing an excuse to bump it later on.
Please don't take this message as some sort of denial of everything you've said. The problems you point to are real, in particular the near impossibility of enforcement. But bad as the current system is, it is, I think, better than the alternative you suggest.
It's not like having a speed limit with no cops, it's like having a speed limit but with no enough cops to catch every speeder, or even the majority of them. In other words, it's just like real life. People break the rules, and the majority of people who do don't get caught and are never punished. Sucks, but the alternative is worse (regardless of whether you think the alternative is anarchy or a police state).
Ideally, what we need is a trading system that's not a forum. We're looking into it.
Quote:
No this is the largest issue, if the rule was enforced unanimously I wouldn't have nearly as much of a problem with it.|
Originally Posted by RepinsMirg
...while the people who follow the rule end up on the third or fourth page.
This is inevitable, and there's nothing wrong with that. There are a lot of people trading a lot of stuff. Thus, it's not reasonable to expect to be on the front page for very long at all. Rather, a message should be written with the understanding that people who want to buy what you're selling or sell what you're buying will have to use the Search function to find your thread. Write and most importantly spell check accordingly: when I was looking for a dragon sword, if you posted you were selling a drgn sowrd, I didn't see it. Also, if you merely posted images of what you were selling rather than typing it in, I didn't see it. Just a couple of points to keep in mind...
MCS
Quote:
Some people have the decency to follow a rule or guideline wether it is enforced or not. Enforcement is a complete non-issue here, as we don't have an unlimited amount of moderators and we don't have a single moderator with an unlimited amount of free time.
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It isn't like real life, in real life if a speeder is caught he isn't forced to go out and speed again.
By closing a thread you only force him to open a new one, the complete lack of enforcement isn't nearly enough to scare him into following the rule the second time because chances are he won't be caught.
I'm not talking about basic information like your IGN or buyout or something stupid. If someone left that out to purposely bump later you could tell.
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So you've got a 1 in 20 chance of getting caught, if you get caught your punishment is reposting the thread?
You do need more mods, it's not that I see the other mods enforcing it less, it's that I don't see them enforcing it at all.
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Yes, easily. No one has a real reason to bump.
This seems to go against everything since even the rule is telling you that you can bump, once every 24 hours only though. I think the problem is lack of enforcement and people can't answer questions. The only mod I see enforcing this rule is Ending but there is like 4 mods for that forum.
Principa Discordia
Quote:
Originally Posted by MCS
The only mod I see enforcing this rule is Ending but there is like 4 mods for that forum.
That's because the other mods have limits on their free time, I imagine. Is it so hard to accept that EnDinG is doing a fine job considering the task is so big?
EnDinG
Only solution here IMHO is to start my own personal "ticks". If people reach three ticks, I will report them to have them temp banned from the forums. If they can't follow the guidelines, they will probley need a time out from all the posting they are doing.
Principa Discordia
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnDinG
Only solution here IMHO is to start my own personal "ticks". If people reach three ticks, I will report them to have them temp banned from the forums. If they can't follow the guidelines, they will probley need a time out from all the posting they are doing.
There's no real solution other than to either a.) increase the number of moderators, or b.) increase the severity of the punishment.
A.) May not be very likely, as the administrators must screen people and research their post history to find out if they'd be a competent moderator. Even if they did pick up more moderators, the traffic in Ventari's Sell is so large that they still wouldn't be able to cover it. B.) May not be very likely because people would whine, a lot. This forum is not a democracy, but we don't want to turn it into some totalitarian regime crushed under jackboots. There is another option, which would involve changing the entire system for Ventari's Sell, and using a medium that is not a forum. A live chat system might work, for example. Until then, it's just going to be up to the moderators to do the best that they can, and the players to take some personal responsibility. Not to mention staying cool.
Ramus
The best solution is for sellers to not be lazy. Whenever I sell something with a picture I also add the text. This way when people use the "Search" feature. (as I and many others do) we can find the item we are looking for in your thread. If you do not put the text as well as the picture you will not be in the search engine.
Principa Discordia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramus
The best solution is for sellers to not be lazy. Whenever I sell something with a picture I also add the text. This way when people use the "Search" feature. (as I and many others do) we can find the item we are looking for in your thread. If you do not put the text as well as the picture you will not be in the search engine.
Unfortunately, we live in an imperfect world where most people would gladly disregard any effects they might have on the rest of the board by spamming and bumping just to get their topic into the top of the first page.
 If it were up to me I'd say that if they're not going to follow the rules then we're not going to give them a place to buy and sell. Luckily for them it is not up to me. 
RepinsMirg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamsmith
This is inevitable, and there's nothing wrong with that. There are a lot of people trading a lot of stuff. Thus, it's not reasonable to expect to be on the front page for very long at all. Rather, a message should be written with the understanding that people who want to buy what you're selling or sell what you're buying will have to use the Search function to find your thread. Write and most importantly spell check accordingly: when I was looking for a dragon sword, if you posted you were selling a drgn sowrd, I didn't see it. Also, if you merely posted images of what you were selling rather than typing it in, I didn't see it. Just a couple of points to keep in mind...
Well I would like to think everyone in the forum who uses ventari would be smart enough to use search it just doesn't really happen. I see all the time where someone post an item like a hammer with good mods they drop off the first page and they never get another view onto the thread. Soon after another person will post a WTB thread and low and behold it is after a hammer with good mods. Most threads that fall off the first and second page are never seen because people just don't feel the need to go that far back. A way to help may be to put a sticky somewhere telling to use search right in the name because I have a feeling the people who read the stickies are in the minority.
EDIT: I assume that barely anyone reads it because my 200 item auction I held awhile ago in 3 days had almost 1000 hits while the sticky right now only has 1,700 and it has been up a whole lot longer and just because they click on the sticky doesn't mean they read it all mostly when they see how many rules there are to follow. V Common sense seems to be lacking or they wouldn't post twice within 24 hours =P V EnDinG
Alot of the guidelines are very straight forward and mainly common sense.
Dreamsmith
Quote:
Originally Posted by MCS
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And on the forum, when people are caught breaking the rules, they aren't forced to go out and break them again, either.
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...the complete lack of enforcement... ... The only mod I see enforcing this rule is Ending... Make up your mind, is there a complete lack of enforcement or do you see it being enforced? You can't have it both ways. You seem to constantly change your mind about this, depending on whether it would or wouldn't support the point you're trying to make in your current breath. You should be aware that the impression this gives a reader is that you can't support your arguments without exagerating the truth, which undercuts your own argument, since the astute reader can then infer that the real problem must not be that bad if you can't make a case against it by sticking to factually true statements. Laws against speeding really do make a difference, even if the vast majority of speeders are not caught. It be nice if we could perfectly enforce every rule we have, but that's never going to be the case, not until there are as many moderators as there are readers, so someone can check every post as soon as it's submitted. But this fact does not in and of itself constitute a reason for discarding a rule. It's a reasonable rule, and not an undue burden on anyone to follow. RepinsMirg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamsmith
Laws against speeding really do make a difference, even if the vast majority of speeders are not caught. It be nice if we could perfectly enforce every rule we have, but that's never going to be the case, not until there are as many moderators as there are readers, so someone can check every post as soon as it's submitted. But this fact does not in and of itself constitute a reason for discarding a rule. It's a reasonable rule, and not an undue burden on anyone to follow.
The speeding analogy doesn't really work because laws against speeding are enforced but the majority of people who speed don't get caught, like you said, but the majority of overall drivers choose not to speed on the risk of being caught and being hit with a big ticket. While on the forum sense the punishment isn't really anything comparable to a $100+ ticket the majority of people not only do not get caught but the majority of people break the rule.
EnDinG
Break the law here = Get banned from here.
Since majority of the board doesn't break the law here, if nothing else, a few bad eggs are weeded out who do snap it.
MCS
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...the complete lack of enforcement...... The only mod I see enforcing this rule is Ending... |
The first statement was an EXTRMELY mild exaggeration as I'd say 95% of the threads breaking this rule go unpunished.
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So you've got a 1 in 20 chance of getting caught, if you get caught your punishment is reposting the thread?
You do need more mods, it's not that I see the other mods enforcing it less, it's that I don't see them enforcing it at all.
Quote:
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Break the law here = Get banned from here.
If you did that you would lose half the traders before people caught on.
Ramus
Quote:
Originally Posted by RepinsMirg
The speeding analogy doesn't really work because laws against speeding are enforced but the majority of people who speed don't get caught, like you said, but the majority of overall drivers choose not to speed on the risk of being caught and being hit with a big ticket. While on the forum sense the punishment isn't really anything comparable to a $100+ ticket the majority of people not only do not get caught but the majority of people break the rule.
I'd rather pay a 100 dollar ticket then getting banned from here.
And it does make sense if you compare it in the right way. You don't get thrown in jail for speeding, just like you won't get banned for bumping. Just a slap on the wrist. (Now, if you do it and then start a high speed chase(or keep bumping your posts anyway) then you will be jailed or banned )
RepinsMirg
I rather spend a night in the local jail then waste $100 dollars of gas money on a ticket
salatious
WHY IS THIS RULE HERE? what are you trying to prevent with a 24hour post rule?
This is the only sirte i have every been to with a rule like this and i Mod 2 other web sites? Spam is going to happen you cant do anything about it. Its the nature of the beast and the beast in this case is a Forum.. Now im not saying that spam shoudl not be inforced but if a user wants to go into there thread to /bump it so that its on page 1 then by all means let them... its not hearting anyone and it surely helps the users of this forum buy something from some that is truely monitoring there sale and not someone that post a sale and never comes back. thats were the buyer gets the shaft. But again back on topic.. /bumping your sale is not harming anyone..
MCS
Bumping your thread puts it above someone else's who then has to bump theirs etc etc...
Do you know how fast that forum would move if people could bump whenever they wanted? You'd have to bump every 30 mins if not less to keep yours on the front page. Just follow the rules, I see people buying and selling everyday without breaking the rules, clearly they work fine. Spell checks own by the way.
salatious
Quote:
Originally Posted by MCS
Spell checks own by the way.
is this site run by 12 year olds?
Im not going to get into a grammar pissing contest with you but as a mod here you might want to be more careful with the way you represent yourself. You are here to monitor these forums not talk down to the users. and ever heard of PMing someone your Comebacks?
MCS
Quote:
Originally Posted by salatious
is this site run by 12 year olds?
Im not going to get into a grammar pissing contest with you but as a mod here you might want to be more careful with the way you represent yourself. You are here to monitor these forums not talk down to the users. and ever heard of PMing someone your Comebacks? It was a friendly suggestion because you appeared to be angry when you posted that or you were just in a hurry. I wasn't aware that 5% of my post commenting on some mistakes you made was getting into a "grammar pissing contest". I didn't talk down to you anymore then I would talk down to any other person breaking rules, complaining about it, flaming me, all because I asked you not to break the rules, I didn't even close your thread. I'm sorry if that came off as rude.
salatious
no problem... I was alittle upset over this rule but its cool. I would much rather use the forums here to sell my items than sit in a town and spam for hours.
a small suggestion to cut down on the Spam /bumps would be to separate the Auction forums in to more categories like : Runes / Rare Materials / Weapon Upgrades / Weapons. This would help players shuffle through the threads much easier and would cut down on the bumps because page 2 or 3 really isn't that bad but page 5 in a few hours really is not helping the seller at all. EnDinG
Your not forced to post on those forums. Since everyone else can easily follow the guidelines, I'm sure your learning curve will work just as well.
Why is there a 24 hour rule? Because casual gamers, one of the target audiences this game was ment for, don't have endless time to waste their life selling items on a forum. In 10 seconds those items are gone to page 20 if we let people spam bounce and bump all they wanted to. It pays to view reasons about things in other peoples shoes, not just your own.
SOT
This thread is a bump
MCS
Ending used the wrong form of "your"
.This thread was brought back up because I linked him to it when I closed his thread in the trade forum that basically said this rule is "unacceptable". I've gotta go post my rant about forum newbies not reading the rules and posting 6 times in a 30 minute period. |
