Do Away with the Support Classes!!

Make all classes worth having by itself. Before everyone jumps in and says all classes count all you have to do is look at the typical group make-ups

2-3 Monks
3-4 W/?? (usually W/Mo)
1-2 E/?? (depending on how many Monks and Warriors)
0-1 "support" class Ranger, Necro, Mesmer (only if their isnt a secondary skill in the group already).

People can say they matter all they want but most groups dont use these types of classes (at least them as primarys) and most are almost dead against them being added to the party or just leave outright. Im not asking for an "Uber leet" classes just these "sopport" classes given a little boost so that they can stand on their own in HoH (personally I just want to see a little variaty in group make-ups). I personally run a R/Me (IMO the funnest classes to use, but after waiting around for 30-40 minutes for a group and another 5 listening to everyone complain to the leader about inviting a Ranger into the group the fun is to few and far between). I shouldnt have to play a monk, warrior or Elementalist to enjoy the game or be an equel part.

So basically this is another Buff rangers/Necros thread?

Don't get me wrong, I do agree with you, Necros are at a harsh disadvantage in PvP because their primary Attribute, and most of one of their spell lines (death) cannot be reliably used in PvP but they still make it work.

And Rangers are at a disadvantage because Their pet and everything they have with it is almost as uselss as soul reaping.

But to make them cease to exist would suck =P

Another thing you have to be concerned with is unles you buff up the primary attribute for Rangers and Necros' then anyone who's Secondary class is Ranger or Necro also gets the bonus... thus putting you in the same place,

Yeah I guess it is another "Buff" the classes mentioned. Most agree these classes need a boost (unless your one of the rangers who claim to be able to 2hit people or able to take on 2 or 3 wariors with a monk and win ).

Not wanting the classes to disapear just the concept of "support" classes.

And yeah it would have to be a primary skill of somesort.

Now I don't usually jump in on threads like this but after trying out lots of different combinations and reading this...well hmmm it got me thinking.

What would be the awnser here? I mean let's say if the game didn't allow you to pick a secondary but I dunno diced up the skills a bit to let you build the way you wanted. For example types of warriors, certain types of healers with the monk, types of rangers/scouts, types of casters with ele and so on.

The problem with that is that some class type would always be on the bottom and it would horribly throw things out of wack.

I guess the only other option would be to give players a reward for picking a certain primary. I dunno a special set of skills or something prehaps.

Oh I don't have any of the awnsers lol...I've just been reading the forums a good bit these past few days and it seems like someone can always find something wrong with something. And that in itself isn't a bad thing because people deserve the right to question the way things are and how they work. All I'm asking is what do you guys think the awnser is? Either way GW rocks!

lets just remove all the classes and just have a single skill, well call it attack. and if people start abusing it well just have to remove it aswell.

seriously, just play the game stop worrying about bobby sue and dave from down the street are doing.

Ah very contructive LOL.

quoted for truth

seriously... the classes are different FOR A REASON

if you don't want to play a necro, don't... granted, you don't get the looks, but hey, you can always choose ranger or necro and then play as your secondary

well, I have been a lurker here for a while. I generally get a RP build up to about 13 or 14, then switch because I thought of a new roleplay build.

In my humble opinion, Rangers and Necros, with Mesmers coming in a close second to the tie, have the most interesting roleplay value.

And in the end, while GW focuses on PvP at the highest levels, for the first 17 or so many people like to roleplay. In fact there are guilds out there that have no interest in PvP at all! Imagine that?

But all things being equal, the poster is right in that Necros and Rangers do not "pwn" in PvP. But perhaps that's because the problem is not the people that pick these classes and may even play them well, its the people that comprise the majority of the game world who want instant gratification and the strongest possible character.

Here's a good example. I have a Monk/Warrior. I roleplay. I picked this combination because it suits a character concept of mine. Plus, he looks cool with the /dance command. I COULD have gone Warrior/Monk and received better armor, and probably have "pwned" more in PvP, but that was not my concern or intent.

I have a feeling that most of the people who play Necs and Rangers are aware of their perceived underpowering in PvP, but maybe they don't care? In the end, no matter how hard you try to balance a game, if there's no winner it becomes bland. The whole concept of timing and countering is basically rock/paper/scissors, and while in Situation A Warrior beats Elementalist, in Situation D, Ranger beats 2 Warriors.

My conclusion? Just have fun, play what you like, and let the devs iron out the imbalances, if there actually are any. Sure, a Necro cannot insta-kill every other character on the battlefield, but he'll be able to curse and destroy their ability to fight so that his team can win, therefore you don't NEED 3 or 4 Necros on a team. A Ranger can do large amounts of DoT and spread damage out with traps, pet, and preps, and how many nature rituals do you really need? Maybe the fact that you need only one of these kinds of characters is the reasons why there are so few?

Ah I understand now these classes were created so People like myself who dont want to play a warrior, monk or elementalists can sit around for hours waiting on a group. Thx for clearing it up for me.

You know...instead of waiting for hours for a group to come along and pick you up, how about making a group instead?

Most people think mes/necro/rangers suck because they are not nearly as easy to play as war/ele/monks. In a way, it's the right thing to do. If you're in a pug, the odds of that mes/necro/ranger being any good are slim, while the odds are better if you pick a war/ele/monk. However, you'll regularly see guilds use a mesmer or necro (or ranger?) in their builds, since a well-played one can be very strong.

Rangers and necros are pve classes, me, el, wa, and mo are pvp. Take their skills, and put them in pve instead of pvp. notice how they now kick ass. Vice versa for other classes, e.g. me.

Wow...

First I played a Ranger/Elementalist to 16 and never once had a problem getting picked up for a group...

I am now playing a Ranger/Warrior and people are always shocked at the damage output that I produce... I need to get the toon higher and then it will get sick.

I think every class is STRONG if, and ONLY IF, the team you are with understands your class.

Personally I hate being on teams with typical warriors that want to take on the entire other team one-v-one.

Doesn't work... just doesn't.

Great discussion about how support works in pve.

Same problem Ive tried that most see a Ranger starting a group and wont join. So me and buddy (who plays a Monk) when were on at the same time have it so he will try and start a group. The same people who turned me down accepted "his" grp. And if we asked to merge with a larger group well they would boot me as soon as we joined (about 1/2 the time).

Do you have a crap reputation or something?

My Mo/W NEVER gets turned down for invites (I send "Mo/W14 LFG for *whatever*. I'm Healing/Tactics"). I get invited within a second or two after.

My necro, similar situation. "N/Mo19 LFG for Augury Rock. Minions/Blood (or whatever the **** I'm running at the time)".

I get invited fast as all shit. People who've played with me, LOVE me. I get compliments all the time with either my healing or with my necro and her army holding the bad guys at bay and holding their agro.

Monks love my necro, and everyone loves my monk.

I don't see why you're having such a problem. Switch districts and broadcast again.

Edit: I do admit that a ranger or mesmer is the last class I'm usually looking for in a team. Then again, I practically never SEE many mezies running around. I've yet to team up with a ranger who didn't suck ass (last night, ranger running with a vampiric bow, pissed me and the other monk off as he didn't swap weapons while we did long runs between mobs).

No wait, I take it back, there was a ranger who was R/E. The guy rocked. But he's been the only one (he used both pet, ele fire skills, his bow, and a few ranger skills {creature that makes arrows move faster, and another skill i forget}).


When you LFG, make sure you state what the hell you're qualified at. Makes you more desirable. Also helps identify you as someone who at least knows their character.

Your Mo/war never gets turned down......go figure. That is one of the best classes you fool. Pay attention to what is being discussed. Try getting invites as a ranger.

Bingo. If you look at the Guild of the Week over at Guildwars.com, they have about 2 or 3 (4?) primary Rangers. Granted they mention they play other characters too, but they stick with Rangers.

Try being a beginner to HoH, being honest about it and being a Ranger. Try finding a group then :P.

*looks at title of thread*

"Do Away with the Support Classes!!"

Sorry, I thought my monk was a support class. Yup, with the way I'm spec'ed right now, I'm full support. Go figure.

You seemed to totally ****ing ignore my talk about my necro not having invite problems. That was the way from day 1. In any mission area, my necro was never made to wait long for a party (1 minute tops, that's like, 2 broadcasts ).

monks are not support they are healing.

Besides everbody talks about pve. In pvp ranger owns quite a bit with the right setup.

It is not true that only a few play rangers on guild of the week. 2-3 per guild? What do you expect? They only wrote about 8 people. 2-3 is a lot. Try finding people who play necro on guild of the week. 0 or 1 per guild usually.

they're not talking about pve. any class will be invited to a pve group.

HoH thats where shit hits the fan for rangers. Seems one of the only acceptable builds that people appreciate is the trapper (that's what i use at least)

In terms of PvP, two things:

1. Your skill will determine your success.
2. Teamwork > all

I got a feeling that anyone who doesn't think #2 is important has a rambo W/Mo. I dare you to count how many there are out there! Yes, there are some cookie cutter builds out there - but the fun is in going with an underdog and dominating them. Support classes have their strengths, it just really comes down to the player. A. They need to be good. B. They need to be in the mindset. Most of the people that think Support is useless are the people blind to #2 and hence - rambo W/Mo! Yes ... I've seen many Many MANY W/Mo's who thought they were "all that" - they're also the ones who left the mission after dieing from running in and aggroing everything in sight. (come'on folks, count how many times that has happened - alright, anti W/Mo ends here )

On a side note, R/W's going melee are fun as hell to play - and wicked (sometimes :P as usual though)to boot. Most people laugh and call you a noob, untill they realize the R/W players realize their limits and adapt to them. Back to point #1. I find the best roll for my Sword Ranger is to play SUPPORT-tank. I can't tank like a W/Mo or W/N, so I hop in to lend a hand with aggro. My main job is to gaurd casters. I intercept the second wave of aggro coming past the primary tank. Then it's always fun to go a tri-sprint build for something like Giant runs. The wonders of Expertise ...

Anyway, the strength of this game is you can pick most any combo and still be successful. Granted, there are dominating builds. But - no one is untouchable. When you can't pwn everything in sight, rely on your team. I strongly believe victory lies in balance, both of those primary PvP driven classes AS WELL as SUPPORT classes.

I got a Ranger/Mes lvl 15 at the moment and he never has a problem being invited or holding his weight in groups. I dont try to kill everything, that is suicide. I lock down casters and lock down monks. Then if a tank is still standing I pin him down so the tanks can whack at him. Its all how YOU the real live person plays the character and how you react to the changing enviroment.

I also have a Necro/Elem..sure hes got nuking ablillites(sp?) but I use Air and Death. Build up an army and knock all the baddies down and let the army take em down. Ranger Necs and Mes are fun if you know their place and strengths. Heck im not god with em either....I die lots..but everytime time I die i die with a grin on my face cuz I know i took a few down with me and Im doing my job Its a game play it love it live it

....Last time I checked healing WAS considered support. At least I've considered any healer, white mage, etc, to be a support class in all of the RPGs and MMORPGS that I've ever played.

There are definitely parts of PVE where Mesmers are incredibly useful. Know how those Hydras in Ascension chain-stun your entire party with heavy AOE damage with Meteors? They're far less irritating when you have party members interrupting their spellcasting. In fact, any mission with 33% or more caster mobs is one where I look for Mesmers to bring along.

That said, both Rangers and Mesmers can easily be totally ineffective if not played well - perhaps more so than other classes. That's probably the root of their problems.

You're right about Necromancers - I rarely have trouble getting a group if I explain my N/Me's role in simple terms for them (damage dealer, debuffer, tank, caster disruption, etc.) In PVP I have a hard time seeing minions or Soul Reaping being terribly effective, but some of their other stuff is probably invaluable (Blood Ritual, Blood is Power, Curses, etc). I think a physical damage-heavy party with Order of Vampire, Order of Pain, and Barbs floating around would be particularly effective.

Rangers are pretty awesome in groups, even when there's lots of em. My favorite Ranger group stacked Winnowing and Favorable Winds rituals with like 4 rangers in the party. It was pretty dang effective, with each Ranger using their own preparations on top of those rituals. Again, I have a hard time seeing pets used well in PVP - but at least they're slightly better than Necro minions since they have decent abilities.

If they implemented a pet/minion control bar with basic commands, they'd probably be a lot more useful. Mostly just a Recall command and a Switch Target command.

To Loxguard:

You are getting in a semantics battle. What he means is that there is a problem with the classes who fall outside the holy trinity of:

Tank
Healer
Mage

It's in every game like this. These 3 classes are typically the most desired classes as they specify in the 3 most imoportant tasks. Of course to make it interesting, there are other classes that fall outside the Trinity. These classes are less straightforward both in playstyle and strategy. Also, they seem to benefit less from having multiples.

Two monks? Clear advantage, you can heal more!

Two elementalists? Clear advantage, you have twice the firepower to take out the enemy.

Two mesmers? Common knowledge says they 'shutdown casters'. How many do you need? Since a mesmer doesn't have a 'flashy' aspect on the battle, it is less evident to the public how multiples would help.

Point taken.

*laf* I enjoy this quote... I spent a good hour playing around in Temple of Ages just to see how long it would take a group to accept my R/Mo primary.

I even mentioned them that I had unlocked almost everything ranger & monk and could morph to fit whatever mission was needed in the group. Only then did I get back the rangers suck more often than not and weren't welcome. At least some were nice and polite though.

Ironic, because the rangers semi-rebelled and formed a group of 8 rangers (no monks that's right) and had a field day in the underworld. Yes it can and does work! :P (and yes greater conflgration is great... 100 armor for everybody! no matter what hits em).

HoH is similar... you're typically non grata in a pick up group. When I go in it's because I've messaged friends and other guildies to see what they're up to. This is my best advice to other rangers... work up a group of friends who know they can rely on you. Then try and party with them moreso than just straight pick-up.

Well played yesterday in the compatition arena's 4v4, and actually had the best time ive had since beta's. As its random they had NO choice to have rangers LOL, and I seen a much larger amount of Rangers there than at HoH probly because the grouping situations there. Any ways got into a group that consisted of 3 rangers and 1 W/Mo we won 6 consecutive and 5 were flawless we finally lost to a team that had 3 monks. Any ways I found a place I can have some fun (now if it counted toward fame LOL).

As a death magic necro, sometimes I feel the need to "showoff" for whatever party I happen to find myself in. It's amazing how people react when you can spawn and maintain over 20-30 minions for an extended period of time. It has gotten to the point where the tanks just sit and watch my minions take out the enemies for them. I'm not saying my build is the greatest in the world, but I'm damn good with it.

For PvP, I switch up my skills completely, however, I'm still a Death Magic primary. One group actually pounced on me when I stepped in to the Tombs, and I got on their Vent, and they actually know what a Necro can do for their group... needless to say, we've been doing well. Sometimes people will surprise you.

I've probably said this before, but having a group of rangers can sometimes be very bad, because the conditions don't stack. That means you only really need 1 ranger, mesmer or necromancer to deal out alot of conditions, but after that the effects of having more than one can dwindle off a bit. Like Spark said, with the main classes having multiples is obvious, but the support classes need to sit and talk with the group beforehand or risk becoming fairly useless.

I had a good group once where me and the mesmer of the party worked together with various conditions, spreading them quickly between the two of us and interrupting lots. We both tweaked our skills before going into the mission so that they worked better with each other's skills, and so that they fitted the environment we were going into.

Someone either on this forum or another posted about being friendly to healers, listing things that you can do to make their life easier, such as keeping close, healing yourself, running from fights you can't win etc. The same can be said about the other support classes. If I'm playing a trapper and the elementalist running from a tank runs the wrong way from my traps, they've just made my planning redundant and harmed themselves in the process. The same goes for the necromancer that has spent ages building up a hundred strong army only for the healer not to bother using heal area and waiting for energy to recharge while they die (I've used healing springs before to keep a fellow players undead army on the move, because those armies are damn useful).

Add to that the fact that they might take a bit more skill, with misstimed interrupts and poorly placed traps becomming useless, and you can easily see why strangers forming a group are less likely to invite them. It doesn't make them useless or weak, it just means you should take the time to get to know your fellow players.

Okay then how did a group of 3 n/w + a(me) ranger in 4v4 random arena beat 3 w/mo and a ele? rangers are fine so are necros -.-

Heres a thought. Maybe its just that the current popularities in PvP do not stand well with Rangers and Necros. Anyways, if you like Necros and Rangers they are still very viable in PvE and I'm sure they are viable in PvP with the right build. If you are worried about not getting a party, then find some friends and play with them. If you want to be chosed for PvP then find a good PvP build for a Warrior or something else and use it.

I play a necro primary in pvp and pve. You are correct we are not ridiculous in PvP ownage, however that is if you are looking to play the class like another class. If you can be happy "supporting" your group, you not only are a welcome addition, but give your team 2 ways of attacking based off of how you structure your skills. Personally, i think we are fine the way we are although i would like it if soul reaping had a pip increase attached to it so it would be more worthwhile.

I find that on the whole, Necros, Mesmers and Rangers are more 'finesse' characters than brute characters. Each class, most definitely goes very very deep on play, but Eles, Monks, and Warriors tend to be MUCH more accessible to those that are looking for immediate success. If you're a Monk, equip any group of healing spells, watch red bars go up and down, and you'll be at least semi-effective. if you're an ele, equip whatever happens to do the most damage on paper, mush them together, and you have something that deals out respectable damage at some level. If you're a warrior, press a few skills buttons and hack away! I'm not saying these three are any less deep or complex as the finesse professions, but they're undeniably more accessible to the new player either in PvP or PvE. The others are just as successful, you just need to think a bit harder to find effective way to get a working character.

(Thread moved from The Campfire. There are no builds in this thread, it does not belong in the campfire.)

Hmm, people who don't invite rangers don't know how to play the game IMO =P

I've noticed that in the last few missions, most classes can't even compare to the overall damage non-stop barrage can do. Sure elementalists has high damage spells, but with the high armor of the monsters, most spells only do 30% of the damage, not to mention the long recharge times on the high damage spells.

I always invite at least one ranger into any group I'm forming, and I never reject rangers trying to join the group. (I even had 3 rangers in my group once, which was accidental, but I refused to kick any of them and told the rest of my group that if they didn't like it, they could leave =P. We ended up beating the mission pretty successfully)

So yeah, if people people see that you're a ranger and you get kicked, chances are you're better off not being in their group.

You are completely wrong about the necro, it's been testing, and proven to work wonderfull in teams of 8... the soul reaping accounts for mana ALOT more then any ele could dream of getting it... i tested this out using a necro primary, and used it for earth/fire/air, and well... all of them dmg fine with just 12 attributes...

The rangers, you are completely wrong again... try playing one, and actually using their skills... poison is FAR from useless... interupting skills & dazing skills REALLY mess up monks... pets can be used for a little extra dmg, and mana stealing abilities... Not to mention how Wonderfull the spike/fire trap combo is...

But meh... i guess you'd rather talk before you speak, that's fine... my guild will just have to see you in the wars.

I'm sorry, but I read these first few posts (too lazy to read them all ), and draw back to my good old beta days... When my team of 3 mesmers and a Necro took out a team of 2 Warriors and 2 Monks.....
I think people who want to get rid of the support classes are just the ones who dont wanna think when they play a game, and just wanna run in with a sword and kill things. Then, they'll wanna get rid of skills...

It doesn't work that way, get over it...

Ranger, Necromancer, and Mesmer are fine - granted they don't get much attention in PvE and low end PvP, but seriously, some of the highest DPS builds I have seen involve the ranger as a primary, and some of the best shutdown builds I have seen are N/mes or Mes/N. They don't need a buff, and nothing needs to be nerfed.

By the way, why are you using a pet in PvP? Unless there are 4 Rangers using pets in your team...