Thoughts on PvE, PvP, Grind, and Everything.

I think on the subject of PvE grind for PvP there is a large amount of misunderstanding between the groups. Several misconceptions that I have noticed are as follows:

1. Many people claim there to be no grind, yet have one character with one build and no will to unlock items. Of course, their stance is very true from their perspective, but ultimatley wrong.

2. MMO's have grind and Guild Wars is an MMO. If you haven't noticed that GW is NOT an MMO, you need to return to DAOC and the like. There are several FAQs that explain the difference, so I will refrain.

3. PvPers hate PvE. I don't think I've met a single person who has not enjoyed playing through the PvE missions. The missions aren't the problem.

4. PvPers want it all now and hate unlocking skills. Now there are varying levels of this, but generally I would say this is incorrect, or at least partially so. As many have stated, unlocking all/regular only skills etc. upon beating the game is acceptable for many. Having to unlock skills can be pretty nasty for some elites (at least before patch, don't know how it is now), but the act of getting them again is not the major problem. The problem lies in aquiring the skill points to purchace them. I believe there are 450 skills in the game, 75 per class, 15 of which are elites. I estimate one recives 1/3 of those through the quests, leaving 50 to be unlocked. This means a typical PvE character can unlock all the skills for its primary class, but they will only have the quested skills for secondary. To get more points one must run an uphill treadmill or simply create another character and hope you can get all the skills with the 4 available slots. Unlikely to say the least. Nobody can say that buying skills from merchants is to hard, so do away with skill points.

5. Unlocking skills is the only grind. If one is to say this, they discredit themselves immediatley, as it is obvious they have not tried to get a single rune. I myself have all but 8 superiors unlocked, but only after ungodly amounts of grinding. As a testament to most PvP players distane for the current rune unlocking method I shall provide brief story. After the patch I have begun to salvage major runes out of purple armor with out identifying them. This allows for people to purchace runes for the classes they need and get both a rune and unlock it. After spamming lions arch for quite some time, I got a message from a prominant PvPer asking to buy my runes. After the sale they refered me to his guild and I promptly had 5 people asking to buy any unid rune I had for sale. Now demand for runes isn't a bad thing, but the hight of this demand proves that it is indeed a necessity to be competitive.

6. PvP premades are competitive. Sure, you can take one for a roll in the arena and get some kills, but you won't get any farther than that. The first 1-2 rounds of tombs can probably be taken with all premades too, but don't hope to be successfull.

7. People who whine about the grind are nubs, suck it up like we did in X MMO. The reality of it that people from almost every genre play this game; FPSers, RPGers, RTSers, and even racing sim people. People with MMO backround are not the majority in this game. One must only look at the number of complaints about grind to see that this is true.

Now for the solutions and the not solutions:

NOT solution: split PvP and PvE in anyway. This is inane as the characters are identical anyway. For those complaining that your PvE character is not able to stand up against 'twinked' PvP characters, you can always make the EXACT same character as a PvP only. No RP loss garunteed.

NOT solution: Enable UAS. Though I would love it, I understand what this does to PvEers. On a side philosphical note; think about the stupidity of liking to unlock items simply because you cannot get them easily and what really changes if you can unlock them anyway. IMO its all in the players head, you don't have to turn on the button if you don't want, but nobody is perfect.

Solution: Unlock certain amounts of skills/runes/etc. upon completion of the game.

Solution: Do away with skill points or at least make it reasonable to get all the skills, preferably on as few characters as possible. Why let us change professions if you can't utilize it?

Solution: I'm stealing the from somebody, the credit goes to you, whoever you are. Guild hall PvE waves, defend the fort type of mission with unlocks for completing each wave. Basically anything to get these 450 skills moving and quicker than they are now.

My standpoint and wishes:

Always get the rune when salvagin armor. You get the upgrade from weapons, why not armor too? Nobody will salvage unid gold armor in fears of losing the rune. This is counterproductive the the recent changes with unid runes.

UAS in the BWE provided variety and flexibility never before seen in a game. I don't think that it was so much that people had no idea what they were doing, but that they were experimenting with builds and were able to solve problems quickly by changing skills etc. It was the most fun I've had in a long while and I can't wait untill everyone has the skills unlocked to mimick that event. The massiveness of the options and the power to change your character as you like is what makes Guild Wars the astounding game that it is. The grime and muck that is grind must be wiped from the shining entity that lies beneath that is Guild Wars in all its glory.

-Tuna, Member of DrkH

Oh god, no. Not another one. More running in circles with people not reading other people's posts and arguments.

Your arguments seem reasonable, and you understand that UAS is NOT a solution because of what it would do to the many PvP+PvE'ers... yet you list it again anyway as a wish below solutions. I liked your other suggestions, but why bring UAS up again?

You took all of the PvP arguements, you put them in a legible, logical format, and you did it without any flaming or bashing. Good Job!

I second this motion.

lol...i wanna give u a sigil, tuna =)

Because UAS made the game fun for people that enjoy PvP?

That said the origional post is awsome.

I shall also sign this petition.

PvE =! unlocking something unrelated to PvE
Explanation:
If you unlock a rune for PvP use, you DO NOT get a PvE reward at all. You could buy this rune with Gold.

PvE = Playing the story part of the game, exploring the map, whatever.

PvE + PvP = Enjoying PvE, enjoying PvP. No need for a connection at all.
Possible connections: Those that dont affect the outcome of PvP, like visuals, cool Guild Hall additions, new armors or weapons with same stats, new haircuts, etc.

In my opinion, those who insist that there need to be advantages in PvP that can only be aquired through PvE (the actual game, or artificial rune unlocking grind) need to be given an unique label.

PvE + PvP players like me dont mind UAS at all. Actually it would allow me to enjoy the REAL (IMHO) pvp part (trying out different builds, not making the ONE build and perfect the execution)

Those that claim that PVE will get destroyed by UAS were not the target audience of GW. Needs to be added too imho. You can call it a fallacy, i wont mind.

Nerf "Oh noes, another grind post" posts
Seems to be the new "IN" attitude now



*edit: your post, as well as the intentions behind it, are very good. It its, however, not (yet) the "Complete History of the Grind Wars" - if you take constructive criticism (another "IN" thing atm) into consideration, it will DESERVE to be "sticky"

I don't have anything further to add on the topic except that I'm glad to see that people are offering solutions instead of problems instead of solutions. Nice post tuna... I too would give you a sigil (if I had 2... I don't have 1... )

Saerden: well said. Those were my main problems with the original post too.

No, it's having to go throught he missions countless times hunting for that boss with the elite skill you want or because you've started up a new character...

I've said it before and I'll say it again (And this should probably have been the unofficial motto of the alpha test) but just because something works doesn't mean it's any good. There are too many variables, circumstances, and situations to take into account for a single instance of success to mean much of anything. It's whether or not that success can be repeated in the same circumstances over and over again or if that same technique can be used in other circumstances to as good an effect that really matters. In other words, once is a fluke, twice is a coincidence, three times is interesting, four times is an indication, five times is a direction, and more than that is a pattern, so talk to me when you can do it a few times. Having one of your opponents computer's melt down so they disconnect or getting them to take off all their armor "works" because chances are you'll win but it's not really something I'd like to rely on...

One thing that might also help alleviate a few things is if they gave the pre-mades at least a little more flexibility.

Like give them a reasonable set of basic and few elites to pick a skill set from.. along with the ability to make use of unlocked items on the account..

I don't mean the entire customizable list available to a "custom" PvP character, but something a bit less static than the options currently available with the templates.

Wow never thought I would agree with some of the people promoting this post but, yes Tuna well thought out and great solutions offered. Not bad for a PvPer

You didn't really address this misconception regarding wanting everything handed to oneself on a "silver platter" or wanting an "ubercharacter."

The only thing getting locked around here is people who make statements like yours. ~The Management

This is in essence the core reason why many PvP fans want UAS, or something close to it. There are so many different skills in the game, so many different combinations even just for 1 character. When you factor in an 8 person team build, the number of build combinations goes up astronomically. A typical PvP fan in GW wants the freedom to explore with skills, to play around with all these combinations of builds, to mix and match to her heart's content, to play mad scientist and try to come up with an unanticipated but effective build.

Until a full or close to full set of skills and runes are unlocked, the PvP experience is going to feel limited for these types of players. It'll feel like an artist being asked to paint without a full set of inks. The artist can of course improvise with off colors to produce the vision in her head, but she'll still be frustrated knowing that if she just had the right color ink, she could make something *really* special.

What I was attempting to explain is that I believe most PvPers would be happy with a reasonable way to unlock skill and upgrades. (read the solutions section) As I have already written, I and many PvPers would absolutely love to have it all immediatly but also realize thats going to be the best thing for the general community playing this game.

As for what you said Saerden, unfortunately at the moment PvE = unlocking for PvP for many players. As I proposed in 'solutions' unlocking the PvP content should be made either quick and painless or enjoyable for those who need it or not.

Those who continue to complain about 'another grind thread':
You'll notice that nowhere did I ask for retaliation from the opposition, just that you read my thoughts, formulate your own, and then post if you so desire. The abrutness and content of your posts indicate that you did not actually read before your post; something most consider a good idea. If you don't want to hear and consider the other side, don't bother reading it and certainly don't post.

Thank you all for your compliments.

I'll bite.

[rant]
I think that the only reasons not to unlock all skills for PvP is that people are a) scared that they'll lose, b) addicted to the idea that playing for longer makes them "better" innately, which is reinforced by getting gear etc. and c) that RPGers don't want a fair fight, they want to be all powerful.

Probably why they play RPGs, you need no skill to get "powerful" in an RPG, just time invested. This is great, as when you've been playing a nice long time you don't even need to have any skill, you can fall back on your gear.

Read the suggesions board and all you see are people whining about how powerful X is, and why Y needs a boost, or how we need skill Z so we can instantly kill our opponent.

It isn't being "handed something on a silver platter" to desire to be able to compete. Every game on the planet that has been played competitively over the ages has as a basis the fairness of initial conditions. Nets are the same size on either end of a soccer (football) field, hockey rink or basketball court; you don't get extra timeouts or headstarts for previous victories, or free points because your team has been around longer. Chess masters don't get a 2 move headstart, the previous year's spelling bee champion doesn't get a cheat sheat. In every area of real competition through the ages the point has been to test oneself against an opponent(s), and starting in even conditions - sometimes in a game there is a side advantage due to wind, setup etc, which is why they bother with switching ends in games, or why we bother with playing both axis and allies in a WW2 shooter to determine the winner - because it is based on fair play.

Anyone who feels that they deserve to go into PvP with an advantage other than their skill is an emotional child, who can't understand the nature of competition, the value of skill or the importance of fairness, and is probably playing RPGs as it is an area they can succeed in without skill, simply by copying the builds others have thought up and buying the good stuff on ebay.

[/rant]

1) You don't need all the runes to compete. There is a grind in the game, certainly. However, you don't have to partake in it to be 'competitive'. The only level of play having runes really matters is at the very top, and obviously only a very small percentage of the population will be at the top. I hold that for the average gamer, the advantage that a Superior rune over a Major gives is pretty insignificant in 4v4 and 8v8 play.

2) What difference does it make whether you call GW an MMO or not? The point is that the game needs a grind. Otherwise there'd be little reason to play PvE. Most people need motivation to do something. In fact, this game probably needs more variety in grinding, as many people don't do the grind because they realize that unlocking all the runes isn't that important. And without PvE, the replayability of the game drops a lot, which means your playerbase decays/atrophies more quickly.

3) PvPers in general don't hate PvE. Some PvPers might. Most PvPers probably like PvP more than PvE, but I'm pretty certain the vast majority of "PvPers" do enjoy PvE sometimes. I know I do.

4) I think unlocking all basic skill once you complete the game would be reasonable.

5) PvP rewards is the only grind. That includes runes, skills, and item components. The game needs some grind for the PvE players. I bought the game for my fiance (she's mostly a PvE player, but does enjoy some PvP), and she has almost 0 desire to play the game, because there's no real benefit or motivation. Her only motivation is to acquire skills and runes, which are really only necessary for PvP. The game could probably use some PvE-only items that are really uber.

6) Agreed here. The PvP templates are good enough for random PvP, but won't stand up to team play.

7) What proof do you have to say that the majority of the playerbase is unhappy with the current state of the game? And how do you know that means they're not from MMOs? Forums will ALWAYS be comprised of more complaints than praise. You cannot cite the contents of an optional forum as evidence.

I do agree with your solutions.
GW may not be an "MMO", but it also isn't a "Competitive Sport", either. No matter how much you complain, A.Net is going to go with the business model that makes them the most amount of money. The way to make the most money is to keep people playing as long as possible. And the way to do that has historically been shown to provide a "grind".

So, I think you're an "emotional child" for thinking that A.Net wouldn't have it's own best interests at heart (making money), and not yours.

When people argue that a game has replay value because it makes you sit in front of the computer for 500h more doing random tasks you would NOT enjoy without the artificial reward, i look in the mirror and realize how many starving children i could have saved by only playing the parts of these games that i enjoy, and spending the rest of the time doing boring, humiliating jobs. Donations for the win.


This is the core point here. There can be no compromises. No truce. Only All-out war.

This is meaningless without a p2p model. Since GW doesn't do that, you need to throw your preconceptions about mmo's out the window.

[sarcasm]Yes. The most popular online competitive game in the world has grind. It has been held in tournaments at national and international levels, has tens of thousands of dollar prizes and has raked in more money than any other game in its class through the repetitive farming and camping....[/sarcasm]

Oh wait, no, it's Counter Strike.

Just because you like grind doesn't make it popular. The MOST POPULAR ONLINE GAME is a non grind based competitive online game. Anet can learn from that.

As for this tripe:
Yes, good motto, aim for the bottom. I could choose to play at a distinct disadvantage. And who says I am not going to aim for the top? Check csports.net for [FC] Epinephrine. As for the idea that Anet hasn't said it is meant to be competitive; it's in the name of the genre they decided on. Their entire model is meant to promote world level competition. They have claimed that it is skill, not time played. Step up and deliver.

[qoute]Just because you like grind doesn't make it popular. The MOST POPULAR ONLINE GAME is a non grind based competitive online game. Anet can learn from that.[/quote]
Give me the IP to your GW server, please. Thanks!

Anyway, now that we've realized that GW actually has to get you to keep buying expansions and spending money to be profitable, we can dispense with the whole Unreal/Doom/Half-Life's model, who don't require you to spend any more money on their game.

If you had UAS and all runes for a 'fair' gaming experience, why would you ever buy an expansion? Because, following your model, an expansion couldn't do anything but provide PvE content... all PvP content would have to be free, or it wouldn't be a 'fair' environment anymore. So now that you got all PvP content for free, after the first payment for the game... how is it that A.Net is making money?

Answer: They're not.

Heh. The target audience are those the game was made for AS IT IS NOW. Those who enjoy it AS IT IS NOW = target audience. If Arenanet wanted to target a different audience, they would have created GW as a CS clone. But they did not.

I'll give up on trying to explain something to you, I'm talking to a wall. Not surprising, actually.

GW is for those who dont enjoy counter strike, and was intended as such. People who dont like CS need games too. Has it ever occurred to you that if people would like to play CS they... would play CS?

There are plenty of first person shooter online clones. GW is a roleplay game. It is meant to be different, and not CS clone #101.

Tuna, it is true that that is what you are trying to explain. However, under 4 you didn't actually directly address "PvPers want it all now and hate unlocking skills." Instead, you said something about what PvPers are probably willing to accept. Note that I'm merely trying to be constructive and want your list to include important and common misconceptions ^^

Ok you won, i go back trolling the Need for speed underground II forums for better looking sword models. and more skill points.

* edit: this happens. no matter how hard you try; the eternal grind wars will never end. the devils vs the demons. "Work. Pain. Misery." vs NOW NOW NOW .Its in our blood.

Except, of course, actual war.

In war—which, I assert, is perhaps the ultimate expression of human competition—you don't go in with fair or even sides if you can possibly avoid it.

The commander who invites battle with merely even odds is either desperate or insane.

What you want in war is the insane advantage. And your battles do build on one another: one victory leads to another on account either of resources one side gains or denies to the enemy—that's what war is about.

Stop looking at sports for your model: look at what human societies are really about in competitive terms, and you'll understand that it's not only okay for one side to be better equipped than another, it's normal.

We know that ArenaNet has always been planning to add campaign (as opposed merely to battle) level resource management to Guild vs. Guild play: things like 'winnable' upgrades to your Guild Hall, for example, that persist from battle to battle.

And you know what?

The playing field won't be level any more, even at the so-called top level of competition, because some Guilds will 'win' upgrades to their Halls that makes them even stronger in Guild versus Guild matches: that strength will translate to even more success and even more resources as time goes on, and woe to the guild that falls behind. Runes will be the least of your worries, then.

And it'll be a lot more like Guild Wars, and less like Guild Sports, Finally. At long last.

—Siran Dunmorgan

I used the example of PvPers willingness to accept alternatives to justify that they don't necassarily 'want it all now on a silver platter.'


My proof that many are discontented, though not readily accessable to everyone, is simply talking with people from several of the major guilds. These are of course are what most consider 'hardcore gamers,' but a casual gamer would have little reason to be annoyed at the issues being discussed here. Proof for the variety of people playing comes from talking to people in the game and reading Guild of the Week player backgrounds.

Because real war is so much fun that everyone who gets maimed in battle is just clamouring to do it again. Real war is so great that no one is ever at peace - ever country with the capability to do so is fighting a total war all the time, and boring ordinary entertainment is banned because it stops you fighting. Mugging old grannies in the street is your civic duty if you need to do it to afford an extra clip for your AK47. Anyone who loses is exterminated in a systematic genocide, because thats just so much FUN!!

Oh wait.

PvE = Player vs Enjoyment

Siran Dunmorgan, war and games are not the same. Games are generally built with fairplay in mind. Imagine if countries could arbitrarily get twenty players on the field on soccer against an enemy's 6 because there is a rule that says the amount of players is proportional to country population or their monetary donation to FIFA.

Imagine if one team in Baseball could afford more top athletes than another team... oh wait, they do.

Ok...this is seriously getting off topic.

Do you find fun fighting other human players when victory is totally hopeless and utterly out of your control? Of course not, so quit bringing up abstract ideas which should play no part in this discussion.

Another fallacy to add:

This one MMO we all play - RealLife - is a real pain. So shut up and be a mindless drone. Every attempt to get away will FAIL. We will get you. BWAHAHAHA.


See my Matrix pseudoparody.

/disclaimer: It saddens to see me that GW is indeed a true Revolution. 10 seconds after becoming mainstream, it turns on those who helped make it possible. Lots of bloodshed and misery, and everything stays the same - under a different name.

Allow me, then, as I'm certainly one of the biggest opponents of any sort of UAS and have been so for far longer than anyone else here. In fact, if you ask me, I think PvP only characters were a mistake that's only served to widen the false dichotomy between PvE and PvP - although probably a necessary one.

But there should be no UAS for one very simple reason: This is Guild Wars. It's not Counter Strike : Fantasy. Nor, for that matter is it EverQuest : PvP. It's a game of itself and by itself and it needs to succeed on its own merits as a game. And to do that it needs to be *one* game. Not several mini-games linked together through a pretty graphical interface but one, cohesive, organic gameplay experience. One game diverse enough, well-designed enough, that there can be different ways of playing it and enjoying it - that people can focus on trading or PvE or PvP or exploration or completing missions or the Arenas or Guild battles or whatever else - but connected, linked enough that they can transition from one way of playing to the next seemlessly and, in many cases, wihtout even realizing it. As such a game it allows players to learn and grow, to perhaps find new ways of playing and new avenues of enjoyment that they wouldn't have otherwise. It won't limit players, it won't restrict them, won't divide them into RP servers and PvP servers and all the rest, but it will allow them to find their own direction by following their own choices.

Inlcuding a UAS flies in the face of that sense of togetherness, of wholeness, because it further drives a wedge between the PvE and PvP facets of the game and, in doing so, it devalues both of them. It trivializes them and breaks the game from being a whole into being a series of mini-games with a loose connection. And after UAS what comes next? An unlock all items button? Maybe different skills will work differently in PvP than they do in PvE? How about a version of the game you can buy to just play PvP with? All of those might sound nice, from a player's perspective, but from the view of a designer they're awful, they're limiting, they're destroying the internal consistency and integrity of the game world.

PvE, to succeed, needs to be not unlike the stereotypical RPG. There's progression or "treadmilling" there, urging people on, drawing them to the next mission, the next area, the next chest. That's because many people respond to such carrots, enjoy the feeling of exploration and discovery that comes from finding things as they play. And discovering and unlocking skills is a major portion of that. Skills are rewards, they're carrots, and they're valuable enough to make people want to quest and explore and adventure just to get that next one. Because they're rare, because they're scarce, they have meaning. A skill is important and finding one is a thrill, to say you've found such and such a skill is an accomplishment and that, in essence, is what many who enjoy PvE are enjoying it for - they're the skill hunters, the explorers, the treadmillers, who don't want everything on a silver platter they want to go out and find it. If there exists, somewhere, a button that gives everyone the results of their hard work in an instant then their work is meaningless. Skills cease to be a reward or an accomplishment and they become just another feature of the game like a merchant.

And that's because while PvP characters can't enter PvE areas, PvE characters can certainly enter into PvP areas. Because the game is an interlocked whole, those areas aren't closed off to them and they can, and indeed should be encouraged, to try out PvP because it's yet another way of having fun and enjoying the game. But, should there be a UAS, a PvE character in PvE is a character fighting at a disadvantage. It's not that other characters have more skills than them, it's that they're woefully under par. Introducing a UAS turns the PvE characters in PVP into second class citizens because they'll lack the basics necessary for competition. They'll be able to take part but they'll be unwelcome because only PvP characters can "truly" PvP. Futher widening that gap between PvP and PvE by discouraging people from sampling PvP.

And, for that matter, from a PvP perspective, a UAS is unnecessary. To play in PvP you don't need *all* the skills. You just need the *right* ones. There are 450 skills and 75 of them per profession. Of those, depending on your build and your inclination, perhaps 15 are "playable". Of that full skill list, perhaps 1/5th of it is what you'll actually need to debate and decide over slotting into your skill bar. The rest is fluff, trash, and not what your character is going to need to be successful. They're superfluous and you can safely ignore them. Which is not to say they're useless because there are many situations to use skills in and many different characters and we'll all value them differently. But no one out there needs every skill under the sun, no one character will ever find a use for every last skill. A UAS simply bombards them with a host of unnecessary complications, flooding them with options and information they'll need to wade through before arriving at something optimal. Giving people more options like that lets them be more creative, sure, but it also lets them create more worthless crap. It decreases their margin for error and makes it a lot more likely that they'll come up with a plan that's going to blow up in their faces especially if they aren't familiar or practiced with the skills they've chosen.

It's not that those of us who play competitive PvP are necessarily clamoring for a UAS - some are, true, because it's the easiest solution and one we've seen before in BWEs - but that we want a way of finding those right skills quickly and painlessly. And we're perfectly willing to leave that sense of exploration and acquisition in place for those more interested in PvE. A UAS would cause more problems than its worth but what we want is better skill acquisition. Not just for the PvP side of things but for everyone because it's in the mixing of skills and creation of builds that the true beauty of the game resides. We want skills to be more easy to come by so that people have time to explore and experiment before they hit the Fire Islands, we want people to get used to creating and recreating builds from the start so that they've better able to do so which will make them much more able competition, we want skills more easy to find so that when problems come up everyone out there can easily find the solution, the counter, so that abusive and dominant strategies aren't allowed to exist for very long. In short, we want the game to be better and we think that the main flaw is in skill acquisition. And, further, we think a fix to this problem is just sitting there waiting to be recognized and implemented.

The PvE side of things needs skill to be scarce, it needs them to remain valuable rewards. But the PvP side of things needs skills to be diverse, it needs people to run with many skills and many plans so that battles aren't stagnant mirror matches. Scarcity and diversity are two conflicting impluses, to be sure, but the structure of the game itself provides the answer. Rebalancing the skill acquisition system to be much more friendly to new players and to lower level players simply by shuffling around when and where people get skills would solve all our problems. What happens if *a* skill is easily acquired yet *all* skills remain tantalizingly out of reach? The PvPers, looking for that counter, for those "right" skills get to cherry pick from their options. They can ignore what's inconsequential and go off to have their own version of fun. And, when they need more, they can return and put in small amounts of work to get another skill and another and another after that. Yet, at the same time, skills remain valuable and rare in total - gathering all of them or even a significant portion of them is a monumental and praise-worthy accomplishment. So those involved in PvE will always have something to strive for. There's still progression, there's still advancement, there's still acquisition, but those who are smart, who can plan and prepare better get an advantage while those who are content to wait and pick up everything get an advantage all their own.

No, you don't need all the runes. You need the right ones. And they do give a sizeable and appreciable advantage - even that of going from a Major to a Superior (Not that finding even the right Major isn't a hassle in and of itself). Consider the case of a team using Air Spikes - Elementalists using Air Magic designed to create as great a damage spike as possible in order to quickly overwhelm the opposition's defenses. On the skills that make up the prototypical spike chain - Chain Lighting, Lighting Surge, and Lighting Orb - each point in Air is worth another 6 points each of damage before armor penetration is taken into account. That means that an Air Spiker will hit for a full 18 more damage with their chain with a Superior than with a Major. That might not sound like a lot, true, when you're talking about the different between hitting for 90 damage and 96 but what it means is the difference between being able to punch through the healing power of another team and score a kill and the other's team's healers being able to recover in time and shrug off your damage. A team of Air Spikes with Superiors can use two of them and be confident of blasting a target into dust against most opponents. A team of Air Spikes with Majors isn't going to be able to do that with just two. If they want to power through defenses, they'll need to bring another Spiker along, they'll need someone to provide that last little kick of damage that not having Supriors has denied them of and that means that their team is down another character slot. They have less slots then to make the rest of their team better, their options are more limited, and their plans less threatening than the team that's taken the time to find those Superiors. If such strategic flexibility isn't a decisive advantage, then I don't know what is.



While I'd dearly like to see some purchasable Guild Hall items and upgrades I think we've parted ways here because I, for one, am much more comfortable with Guild Sports rather than Guild Wars. Wars are brutish, messy affairs where it's all about finishing off your opponent and limiting your casualties. Enemies are found, hard battles fought, and grudges and emnity develop. Sports, on the other hand, is about competition on a level playing field. The game's played hard and fiercely but once it's all over everyone can line up and shake hands. It's that sort of fair and friendly competition that I'm interested in. "Wars" are won through attrition or brute power and the ways of accumulating power and resources in Guild Wars are closely tied to just how much you play and farm. So that would mean, even more so than now, the guilds with the better advantage would be those that can spend the most time plyaing and farming rather than those that have the best plan and can best execute it.

It's important to remember, after all, that just because in sports a playing field is level that doesn't mean everyone enters in competition on equal footing. Just that the rules are pitched so that everyone is considered equal. Teams, athletes seek advantages within those rules, pressing them to the limit in search of just a smidgen more of a chance at winning. They train harder, they plan better, they analyze their opponents, they seek out the best equipment, and they practice over and over until things are reflex rather than response. After all, the boxer who's spent six months training is going to be a lot better off than the boxer who's spent the past six months partying, chasing women, and drinking heavily but when they step into the ring they both operate under the same rules. One will have an advantage thanks to who and what they are but the rules governing their game are neutral about who should win or lose - the field is level because it's not slanted in one direction or the other. It's that level playing field that means the competition is between the two boxers, between the skill of the people involved, and what they carry with them into the ring and not something else. Nothing says the fight has to be fair just that the rules inside the ring have to be fair.

You're obviously not someone who takes PvP seriously, this would mean by time you got your character complete the entire meta game would change, there would be no serious PvP guilds anymore and the game wouldn't have the fanbase of hardcore players it does.

The game was advertised as low grind, and still is on our boxes, Everyone was under the impression prior to release that you'd be able to compete while having a real life as well, we were all mistaken and robbed.

Most PvPers prior to release were against the UAS because thought the game would have about 60 hours of grind to unlock all of the skills, we were dead wrong and now we just want a fix, whether that's the UAS or not we'd like to be able to get all of the skills without having to grind for hours.

"You don't have to spend countless hours on a leveling treadmill to get to the interesting parts of the game, because combat is designed to be strategically interesting and challenging right from the beginning." - http://www.guildwars.com/gameinfo/default.html
A dead lie




No, it does NOT need a grind, it has been advertised as removing the grind from the game. That's why we're so very upset about the entire issue. I can honestly say everyone was a LOT happier in the betas, now they've ruined the game for a huge fanbase of which most anticipated the release and most loved it.

Origonally we liked the PvE, or it didn't really bother us. After the beating the game once and starting it a second or third time, we now hate it.

Agreed, 1000000000000%

This would only increase the grind, there's already uber looking items, what more do you want.

Sausalitus Rex, I'm gonna have to disagree with you about the UAS issue. The way i see it there are three main problems keeping this game from possibly integrating pve and pvp well:

1.As long as there is an unlock system, pvp characters from a person who has unlocked significant portions of the skillset/runes/weapon mods are strictly superior to pve characters because of their flexibility. They can change classes in moments (delete and recreate), don't have to worry about skillpoints, don't have to to hunt for weapon mods or perfect weapons/focuses. Unless you gave pve characters unlimited skill points whlie keeping the profession changing mechanic (and adding profession changers to the arena) as well as adding some pvp item/rune crafters, in all cases i can think of it is just easier to delete a current pvp character and recreate.

2.This ties back into the first point a bit; pve has very different challenges than pvp. With the current arena setup, there is absolutely no reason to dribble skills, items and runes to a player who is only interested in pvp. In other words, character progression doesn't exist for pvp. You are facing fully tricked out characters from lion's arch on. If you enjoy fighting with a handicap, fine - but there should be specific arenas for this rather than just having a lack of options in pvp forcing you to play at a handicap unless you progress far enough in the storyline.

3.ties into 2; Because of the very different types of challenges between pve and pvp, why should one rely on the other? The two gametypes use the same basic mechanics, but the opponents you face in pvp are vastly different from those you face in pve - they require different tactics, different skillbars. Making the game a cohesive whole is a great theory and all, but the AI in pve flat out sucks. Requiring pvp to go through pve makes no real logical sense; the pvp person doesn't gain anything at all from it besides the mechanical ability (skills, items, runes) to fight in pvp. PvE also has a distinct lack of content, so once you finish the game all you're doing is rehashing areas that you've been through before, killed everything in already. With that lack of content, the only pve stuff that can be added is grind; this is anathema to pvp since it follows the time>skill design model. There just isn't enough pve available to make it concurrent with pvp.

UAS should enter the picture at some point in a player's progression, not necessarily in the very beginning of a character's journey, but certainly at some apt milestone. otherwise, you have the current game, Grind Wars, where the guild who grinds the most (not practice the most or has the most talent) with a distinct advantage. but i have to strongly disagree that every skill is useless. the fact that you think each profession only has 15 playable skills tends to make me believe you don't really pvp much. Just the monk alone has 40+ skills that i switch in and out between all their various lines. Last night I won the HoH about 7 times with both restore life and rebirth on my skill bar. There is no useless skill in the game, not if the game is to have balance. Every skill will eventually have a use, and when you need DO need it, it's an incredible bitch to go out and grind a skill point before you can buy it.

The thing that concerns me most about a UAS is how easy it is for builds to spread. At the moment the most powerful builds tend to rely on rarer items/skills, limiting the number of players that can copy them. With all skills available cookie cutter builds would be everywhere, and no-one would have to 'put up with what they've got' and there would likely be fewer new builds created.

To be honest, i don't know why PvP-only players just want UAS, they should go the whole hog and want 'unlock everything'. I just wonder what will happen when the exapnsions are released and PvP players are forced to buy the expansions to remain 'competitive' since they obviously need every skill available to them (i assume new skills and runes will be in the expansion).

My ideas,

1.)make it so when you beat the game with a certain class you unlock the regular skills that you missed along the way (leave the elites for capturing)

2.) (been said many times) add more maps for pvp and make the grind for rune and skill unlocking a lil less painful for casual pvpers not in huge guilds,honestly if your a casual pvper, in arena it'll take forever to unlock what you want when your making 14 points if you win,maybe add single player tournament pvp with increasing faction as you progress

3.)Bring Farming back for pve, now before we all have a fit and start bashing farming and calling me a piece of crap lets look at this idea a little closer.

yes farming is bad (in some cases, like these so called "chinese sweat shop places") but 50% of the community is pve,once you beat the game, then what?,pvp? not everyone likes to pvp.Now if the Pvp people have a way to unlock stuff with faction, what are Pve people supposed to do? Do something they dont like? (eat your spinach son, "but i dont like spinach") pretty much force feeding pve'rs to pvp.and no not everyone farms to get items to sell for huge amounts of gold, as far as i can see since the change to farming prices have gone up on items!

I bought this game because i like both aspects, pvp and pve i tend to lean more towards pve because it's a challenge as i stated before to try to take 8+ mobs at 1 time,BUT ill switch to pvp when i would get bored of that. Anet seriously needs to pay attention to the Pve section of this game or there going to lose alot of audience.

Shot Your Eye 20 R/Me
Burning Hemrroid 20 E/Me
Big Bong Hit 20 N/W

EDIT : UAS,UAR buttons are dumb, go play unreal tournament,this game is about EARNING, in life you must EARN things, you EARNED the money that bought you the game (unless youre parents bought it for you because your'e 10) EARN the skills. Every mmorpg iv'e played had a grind,its to be expected,name 1 rpg or mmorpg where you had absolutely no grind and started with all skills?

Bottom line- This is the sort of game that is what you make of it.
A game is only a 'grind' if you make it to be. One person's grind is anothers immersive gameplay. Also both parts of the game are fun, but the easier the game is the more people will take advantage of it. It's amazing how people will pay for a game and go through alot of trouble to skip the best parts just to have immediate satisfaction.