I love guild wars. I've been playing online games for the better part of 5 years. But not once have I ever cried nerf in any game (not even through daoc) untill now. It's about Aeromancer team builds. My guild and I have fought through many variations of these air builds and it all ended up the same way. Defeat. Everyone seemed to have the same problem untill, of course, they made they're own air team build.
I personaly decided I would never make this build due to (maybe a missunderstanding) the non-exisistant tatics in playing this build (simply target while 4 air e/me spam lightning spells). We have found a few ways to try and counter this build (mostly mesmer skills) but its just not working. Perhalps they should tone down the air damage? I hope so because as playing a warrior/monk and going down in roughly 3 secs with 3 monks on the team is not cutting it for me (trust me its not the gear either).
Anyone feel the same way or is this rant just unfounded?
A little /rant, please just hear me out....
LouderthanSeth
ManadartheHealer
Unfounded?
Elementalists are supposed to deal good damage with spells (they have nothing else
), so why take that away?
And, I guarentee it, a proper Mesmer build can counter any caster with near any build possible in the game.... so take another look at that "failed" mesmer
Elementalists are supposed to deal good damage with spells (they have nothing else
), so why take that away?And, I guarentee it, a proper Mesmer build can counter any caster with near any build possible in the game.... so take another look at that "failed" mesmer
Shagsbeard
What you are seeing will happen over and over in this game. See, the strength of GW is that two or more people who learn to work together are stronger than the sum of the parts... the same people who just do what they will. Air Elementalists have been dubbed "FOTM" and people have worked out how to work with them well. So their power is exagerated simply by the fact that people have put in the effort to learn how to work with them.
This will lead to counters to AEs becoming popular and people will learn to work with them. There is no need for nerfs, because they're already in the game. As players more and more find AEs a pain, they'll adapt strategies to deal with them. See... AEs are counters to the all popular W/Mo. So everyone jumped on it. Soon, more people will be playing Mez/Nec or something similar that has counters to AE's abilities and people will be crying out to nerf them.
The game's not perfect, but if it were we'd see this type of cycle include every class. In reality, there are a couple of these cycles going on right now.
The designers should keep hands off of the character strengths until much much more data is available to them. Only if the cycle stops on a particular class/build should there be any concern in these regards.
This will lead to counters to AEs becoming popular and people will learn to work with them. There is no need for nerfs, because they're already in the game. As players more and more find AEs a pain, they'll adapt strategies to deal with them. See... AEs are counters to the all popular W/Mo. So everyone jumped on it. Soon, more people will be playing Mez/Nec or something similar that has counters to AE's abilities and people will be crying out to nerf them.
The game's not perfect, but if it were we'd see this type of cycle include every class. In reality, there are a couple of these cycles going on right now.
The designers should keep hands off of the character strengths until much much more data is available to them. Only if the cycle stops on a particular class/build should there be any concern in these regards.
LouderthanSeth
Quote:
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Originally Posted by ManadartheHealer
Unfounded?
Elementalists are supposed to deal good damage with spells (they have nothing else ), so why take that away?And, I guarentee it, a proper Mesmer build can counter any caster with near any build possible in the game.... so take another look at that "failed" mesmer |
Celes Tial
Try looking at all skills, and you'll find lots that could be used to counter Aeromancer teams. I havent been PvPing for long, yet, but I assume that there will always be a popular 'build of the month' until people start countering them, and something new is commonly used.
Sarus
Air usually uses a surge/orb combination. When you see the surge orb appear on your effects monitor you know you're in for some hurt. You want to get protective spirit up on you as fast as you can. Once prot spirit is up you will only be taking ~50 damage max. That will give you enough time to heal. If you can survive the intial spike then you can usually beat an air ele build. You could also bring ward against elements to further reduce damage. If you can grind the match out long enough exhaustion will make most spike damage ele builds less effective after the first 2 minutes or so.
C-Tzar
Quote:
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Originally Posted by LouderthanSeth
But not once have I ever cried nerf in any game (not even through daoc) untill now.
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You played DAoC and never wanted to see a class nerfed?! I'm impressed. 
Popps97
aren't there a few monk skills that allow you to take a max of 10% dmg, and a few skill that heal you when you take dmg?
maybe use a combo of those 2 enchanments.... thats how i have gotten threw this... never have i seen it as a problem.. /shrug
maybe use a combo of those 2 enchanments.... thats how i have gotten threw this... never have i seen it as a problem.. /shrug
Twilight Doll
I think rangers are a good way to counter AE . Once it does become more popular, (which I happen to see AE much more often) then you'll just have to grab some ranger on your team that are good interrupters and can dish out decent enough damage. I know Ranger have the most def vs elemental attacks. You can could have like 2-3 rangers with the +armor vs lightning attacks rush in to take them out.
Goonter
Seth, in your mesmer attempts, did you have 4 mesmers to there 4 e/me? The reason I asked is because 4 e/me is a very consentrated attack. Hell, even one air elementist should be a pain to a warrior, its kind of thier design. But four?
4 mesmers against on air elementist would end up with near the same results.
Another thing about the mesmer class, they often find themselves babysitting a target. (rangers do this too sometimes) Its because in order for them to distupt well, they have to time thier distuption well. Elementist dont have to time like this. They select a target and shoot. Next target, shoot.
4 mesmers against on air elementist would end up with near the same results.
Another thing about the mesmer class, they often find themselves babysitting a target. (rangers do this too sometimes) Its because in order for them to distupt well, they have to time thier distuption well. Elementist dont have to time like this. They select a target and shoot. Next target, shoot.
Corwin_Andros
Air Elem get some awesome spike damage, but if you hit them with a Mes Backfire before they get started good they could easily do themselves in in short order. My mesmer isn't even maxed out on domination yet and his backfire will cause a caster to do well over 100 points of damage to themselves a pop when they cast for the time period that backfire lasts.
I've seen inattentive casters basically kill themselves spamming low power spells and makes them seriously hesitate using high power ones. Couple that with a few high energy and or high damage interupts and casters are in trouble.
I haven't gotten my ranger far enough along to be effective at interrupts yet, but they can really mess up a casters day too.
I've seen inattentive casters basically kill themselves spamming low power spells and makes them seriously hesitate using high power ones. Couple that with a few high energy and or high damage interupts and casters are in trouble.
I haven't gotten my ranger far enough along to be effective at interrupts yet, but they can really mess up a casters day too.
Imaginos
Sounds like a Ra/Me may work really well in messing them up with the armor resists to elemental attacks, the spirits for changing things the way you want them to be and stuff like backfire and interrupts.
LouderthanSeth
Thank you everyone for the great ideas to couter this. I guess I really wasn't looking at the big picture. I thought I was going to be flamed to hell with this lol.
Thanks again everyone.
Thanks again everyone.
FatHuntresS
Protective spirit or mantra of lighting!! goodluck !
The Human Torch
I agree that air eles are a flavor of the month for teams in the tombs. And many things that have been suggested, like ward against elements and ranger's elemental resisting armor simply arent very effective when you consider that all air spells have 25% armor penetration. Therefore, protective spirit is one of the only things that can protect you against an air ele team, but how often are you going to be able to accurately predict which party member will be their first target and get the prot spirit up on him in time? Having been on an air ele team many times, I can say that the only real solution to stop the spiking is a combination of prot spirit, reversal of fortune, and most definately spell breaker. If your team can manage those three monk skills effectively on most high-risk members of your party (monks, mesmers) then you've got nothing to worry about.
Asplode
I personally whined about savages until my fingers cramped up.
-edit-
Oh whoops forgot to stay on-subject...
As for the lightning surge bit, I can see how spotting the hex early would help you get protective spirit up but I've only seen surge get used maybe once or twice. That and a smart group would pack half damage spells of their own to use on spirited targets that hit just about the damage cap and save themselves from exhaustion, like strike and charge.
I usually find the best way to success is to just have our targetted guys run back out of their casting radius, force the airs to chase, and thusly clump together, so that all of their spells can be interrupted at once w/ cry of frustration or choking gas or meteor or any other aoe-interrupt. ... of course this never worked in practice but it was a novel idea while it lasted.
-edit-
Oh whoops forgot to stay on-subject...
As for the lightning surge bit, I can see how spotting the hex early would help you get protective spirit up but I've only seen surge get used maybe once or twice. That and a smart group would pack half damage spells of their own to use on spirited targets that hit just about the damage cap and save themselves from exhaustion, like strike and charge.
I usually find the best way to success is to just have our targetted guys run back out of their casting radius, force the airs to chase, and thusly clump together, so that all of their spells can be interrupted at once w/ cry of frustration or choking gas or meteor or any other aoe-interrupt. ... of course this never worked in practice but it was a novel idea while it lasted.
Storn
Quote:
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Originally Posted by The Human Torch
I agree that air eles are a flavor of the month for teams in the tombs. And many things that have been suggested, like ward against elements and ranger's elemental resisting armor simply arent very effective when you consider that all air spells have 25% armor penetration. Therefore, protective spirit is one of the only things that can protect you against an air ele team, but how often are you going to be able to accurately predict which party member will be their first target and get the prot spirit up on him in time? Having been on an air ele team many times, I can say that the only real solution to stop the spiking is a combination of prot spirit, reversal of fortune, and most definately spell breaker. If your team can manage those three monk skills effectively on most high-risk members of your party (monks, mesmers) then you've got nothing to worry about.
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wouldn't distracting shot (or is it debilitating..) help here. Rangers dont' get noticed overly much, they can contribute to slowing down spellscasters skills something fierce in the "annoyance" dept.
Now, I admit, I'm talking out my patootie... I haven't done one second of PvP yet. I haven't even ascended yet.
But just tossin' it out there...
Perishiko ReLLiK
Quote:
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Originally Posted by LouderthanSeth
I love guild wars. I've been playing online games for the better part of 5 years. But not once have I ever cried nerf in any game (not even through daoc) untill now. It's about Aeromancer team builds. My guild and I have fought through many variations of these air builds and it all ended up the same way. Defeat. Everyone seemed to have the same problem untill, of course, they made they're own air team build.
I personaly decided I would never make this build due to (maybe a missunderstanding) the non-exisistant tatics in playing this build (simply target while 4 air e/me spam lightning spells). We have found a few ways to try and counter this build (mostly mesmer skills) but its just not working. Perhalps they should tone down the air damage? I hope so because as playing a warrior/monk and going down in roughly 3 secs with 3 monks on the team is not cutting it for me (trust me its not the gear either). Anyone feel the same way or is this rant just unfounded? |
Using a ranger with ele defense + mantra of lightning... perhaps, just start making groups like i saw one korean build do... mesmer/mo, ele/mo, and necro/mo healers... with wa/mo, and r/mo thrown in there... it worked unbelievably good... as all the characters used a sort of healing/protection, and removed hex's/conditions like no other i've seen... so like, we would be calling what we thought was a healer, and when we attacked it... it would stop to attack, as it was being healed... then we'd get confused, and think someone else was the major healer... but yea... it was a nice over all group... didnt hurt them One bit... it was like their health bars were stuck... perhaps life bond on everyone, with shielding hands? im not sure, but it should be looked into... because it owned...
It's just that people shouldnt have to make builds to go against one thing solely... use a mix of those sort of spells in a team, along with direct dmg, and you'll actually win in hoh... not just kill some teams... actually win.
banished
make a earth ele build, we got owned by one
Ollj
Just because you suck with primary mesmers or primary rangers does not mean Elementatists cant be blown to bits in seconds.
banished
i agree, our air ele build got owned by a earth ele build ;(
Weezer_Blue
Spike damage is hard to coordinate. You didn't get owned by newbs, you got owned by a coordinated team build working in unison. However, there are ways to defeat this build. Try looking at some of the monk enchantments which can keep damage down to -10% and then look at shielding hands and things that can reduce recieved damage.
HOXMAN
Blackout helps.
Asplode
Power Block (Elite) Mesmer spell, 15 energy, 1/4 cast time, 30 second recast, interrupt target's spell, that spell and all spells of the same specline are disabled for X seconds, mine's 16 at level 16 domination.
This isn't limited in use to just vs monk spells, y'know ;D
By the way, blackout's touch range, and probably wouldn't do too well against ele's since they're in the back, and you'd have to run through their entire group, and out of your healer's range, to cast it.
-edit-
...and, Human Torch, your avatar put me in a temporary coma. Thanks T.T
This isn't limited in use to just vs monk spells, y'know ;D
By the way, blackout's touch range, and probably wouldn't do too well against ele's since they're in the back, and you'd have to run through their entire group, and out of your healer's range, to cast it.
-edit-
...and, Human Torch, your avatar put me in a temporary coma. Thanks T.T
Ironsword
I haven't played too much PvP but wouldn't it make sense to equip yourself and your team with interrupt skills to prevent them from casting or knock them down magic users aren't hard to cut down once a warrior gets to them so i would imagine if you keep them on their backs or hit them with disrupting skills they wouldn't be too hard to beat just keep trying what difference does it make if you lose a few times i don't want any nerfing of this game i've seen too many games being ruined because of it once you start that ball rolling it's hard to stop it until the game is unplayable
FluidFox
There are plenty of ways to counter an air ele build... Mesmer heavy teams make them cry. (let me rephrase that) GOOD mesmer heavy teams make them cry.
Burem
If you just nerf every build that is hard to defeat the game will have no strategy left in two weeks tops and it'll be a big ol' gimp fest. Tons of gimps frolicking in the PVP arenas cause they can't kill eachother with their crappy builds? Count me out.
Air elementalists are defeatable. Nevermind that an effective air build dosen't have that much energy (exaustion and semi-high costs). You can drain them, interrupt them, knock them down, they can be defeated.
Air elementalists are defeatable. Nevermind that an effective air build dosen't have that much energy (exaustion and semi-high costs). You can drain them, interrupt them, knock them down, they can be defeated.
blabla
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Originally Posted by Burem
If you just nerf every build that is hard to defeat the game will have no strategy left in two weeks tops and it'll be a big ol' gimp fest. Tons of gimps frolicking in the PVP arenas cause they can't kill eachother with their crappy builds? Count me out.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Burem
Air elementalists are defeatable. Nevermind that an effective air build dosen't have that much energy (exaustion and semi-high costs). You can drain them, interrupt them, knock them down, they can be defeated.
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They could possibly be defeated. Problem is it takes 10 times the skill of the elem team. Plus it takes a specialized all mesmer team which will suck against anything else (though thanks to this build's effectiveness and lack of need of a brain, that s all you ll encounter soon
Hehe thought about something too: just got to name your air elems "Cheese lIllI", "Cheese lIlll", "Cheese lIIlI",etc... that way other team can t even assign over TS.
Cool beans.
Well, back to teh 4v4 where air ele swarms can t kill anyone in 1 sec. bubye lame tombs games. Or i'll have to join the air swarms
Doesn t seem appealing to be able to kill anyone with the usual call-assist and the same 3 old lightning spells though.
Edge Martinez
Nothing is easy, but I've had alot of success with my mesmer (as a secondary class to monk) using Backfire, Empathy, Imagined Burden (because your ally fighters need to catch them), and Arcane Thievery (my favorite skill in the game). And that's a budget Mesmer. You find some Mesmer elites and you will pretty much own a caster.
But Mesmers aren't the only answer. 4 Rangers will occupy 4 Elementalists quite nicely. But we all know Rangers suck. Right? Right?
But Mesmers aren't the only answer. 4 Rangers will occupy 4 Elementalists quite nicely. But we all know Rangers suck. Right? Right?
Narcissus
I had a very long drawn out post on how the majority of the suggestions in this thread were pretty much useless. Most of them require Mesmers on a 1:1 basis, are self skills meaning they will do NOTHING to help your teammate that is now enjoying life as a smoking crater, or are completely off topic and clueless (AE). Not to mention that a build designed to take out an Air Ele team will be pretty much worthless against everyone else.
In the time it takes for you to coordinate your team of interrupters and assign each one of them to each one their casters, you've already sustained lethal damage.
But Blabla summed it up pretty nicely though. It takes 0 skill to call a target and click lightning orb.
In the time it takes for you to coordinate your team of interrupters and assign each one of them to each one their casters, you've already sustained lethal damage.
But Blabla summed it up pretty nicely though. It takes 0 skill to call a target and click lightning orb.
Divinitys Creature
Lightning orb takes a couple of seconds to cast - and you can dodge it and hiding around a corner will cause it to miss - yes it requires line of sight. If you can't interrupt it, dodge it, hide around a corner etc - well you need to practise more.
Jana
I laugh when I see elemntalists using this stuff, especially many of them on a team.
Elementalists go down too easy.
Protective Spirit and Reversal of Fortune for teh win
All too easy. Especially since these 2 monk spells cast at an incredible 1/4 of a second, I can cast them on more than myself, and recharge in a second. Using Divine Spirit, I can cast them on everyone on my team for a bit.
Jana
Elementalists go down too easy.
Protective Spirit and Reversal of Fortune for teh win
All too easy. Especially since these 2 monk spells cast at an incredible 1/4 of a second, I can cast them on more than myself, and recharge in a second. Using Divine Spirit, I can cast them on everyone on my team for a bit.
Jana
Siran Dunmorgan
Actually, right now, an even vaguely competent Ranger team with a plurality of Choking Gas attacks will more or less crush one of these Air Spike builds. With Choking Gas, the Ranger doesn't even need to time their attacks particularly well: they just get into longbow range—well outside spell range, in most cases—and fire. That shuts down the spellcasting right there. If the Choking Gas is coupled with heavy damage-dealing attacks, those pesky Aeromancers will be down for the count.
The point is that Choking Gas—unlike most interrupts—requires little skill to use: since the Choking Gas itself persists for a couple of seconds, you don't have to time it perfectly, the way you do—for instance—Distracting Shot.
The upshot of this is that if you can advertise "LFG - Ranger (Air Spike shutdown build)" in Tombs, groups there will be bidding for your services, and a team of these will rule in Tombs for the next week or so until people give up on lightning builds and focus on anti-Ranger strategies.
—Siran Dunmorgan
P.S. There is a significant number of interesting things that Rangers can do to spellcasters before the 'casters are even in spell range. Choking Gas just happens to be the one that takes relatively little skill to use.
The point is that Choking Gas—unlike most interrupts—requires little skill to use: since the Choking Gas itself persists for a couple of seconds, you don't have to time it perfectly, the way you do—for instance—Distracting Shot.
The upshot of this is that if you can advertise "LFG - Ranger (Air Spike shutdown build)" in Tombs, groups there will be bidding for your services, and a team of these will rule in Tombs for the next week or so until people give up on lightning builds and focus on anti-Ranger strategies.
—Siran Dunmorgan
P.S. There is a significant number of interesting things that Rangers can do to spellcasters before the 'casters are even in spell range. Choking Gas just happens to be the one that takes relatively little skill to use.
blabla
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Siran Dunmorgan
Actually, right now, an even vaguely competent Ranger team with a plurality of Choking Gas attacks will more or less crush one of these Air Spike builds. With Choking Gas, the Ranger doesn't even need to time their attacks particularly well: they just get into longbow range—well outside spell range, in most cases—and fire. That shuts down the spellcasting right there. If the Choking Gas is coupled with heavy damage-dealing attacks, those pesky Aeromancers will be down for the count.
The point is that Choking Gas—unlike most interrupts—requires little skill to use: since the Choking Gas itself persists for a couple of seconds, you don't have to time it perfectly, the way you do—for instance—Distracting Shot. The upshot of this is that if you can advertise "LFG - Ranger (Air Spike shutdown build)" in Tombs, groups there will be bidding for your services, and a team of these will rule in Tombs for the next week or so until people give up on lightning builds and focus on anti-Ranger strategies. —Siran Dunmorgan P.S. There is a significant number of interesting things that Rangers can do to spellcasters before the 'casters are even in spell range. Choking Gas just happens to be the one that takes relatively little skill to use. |
-choking gas is a prep(2secs cast) available 10 secs out of 24
-choking gas is tied to your attack.Longbow got a attack rate of 2 secs, so you have to get lucky to interrupt most lightning spells which are way faster than this.
blabla
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jana
I laugh when I see elemntalists using this stuff, especially many of them on a team.
Elementalists go down too easy. Protective Spirit and Reversal of Fortune for teh win All too easy. Especially since these 2 monk spells cast at an incredible 1/4 of a second, I can cast them on more than myself, and recharge in a second. Using Divine Spirit, I can cast them on everyone on my team for a bit. Jana |
Plus you must be a psychic to guess who will be wasted in a second. Or you met really bad eles who don t coordonate and don t fling the spells at the same second...It s not hard at all to do, just have to got one guy over TS say "GO" and all push that lightning orb button for the kill
blabla
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Originally Posted by Divinitys Creature
Lightning orb takes a couple of seconds to cast - and you can dodge it and hiding around a corner will cause it to miss - yes it requires line of sight. If you can't interrupt it, dodge it, hide around a corner etc - well you need to practise more.
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Unless you have a spy on other team to tell you who is getting assisted on and wasted in 2 secs of course.
Bye.
Mitsu Bishi
Power Block is definitely one way to go, take Arcane Echo with you and that's two uses on only one Mesmer. Bring 2 Mesmers equipped with that combo and you should be able to cover even 4 Air Ele's. In case there are less, Power Block comes handy on monks, too
Just to clarify - that will give you 16 seconds of breathing room to do something about those aeromancers. Either they do not cast at all, they cast another spell school (which will hurt as well because they won't have any skill with them they don't really use) or they don't get it and finish their air spell. Either way it should really help you and doesn't need a team full of mesmers. And like I said, this spell combo is useful against nearly every team.
Just to clarify - that will give you 16 seconds of breathing room to do something about those aeromancers. Either they do not cast at all, they cast another spell school (which will hurt as well because they won't have any skill with them they don't really use) or they don't get it and finish their air spell. Either way it should really help you and doesn't need a team full of mesmers. And like I said, this spell combo is useful against nearly every team.
Executioner
Other than the standard counter team builds.
heh, i would be happy just if they made it so you couldnt have more than 3 of any primary class in a team.. it would get rid of the 4 mo, 4 air ele teams, or even the 5+ monk team's... (or even the well known 6+ warrior teams on the euro region
)
Never going to happen thou and i think it would cause some lost of game play as well..
heh, i would be happy just if they made it so you couldnt have more than 3 of any primary class in a team.. it would get rid of the 4 mo, 4 air ele teams, or even the 5+ monk team's... (or even the well known 6+ warrior teams on the euro region
)Never going to happen thou and i think it would cause some lost of game play as well..
ElevenBravo
Easy. At least it takes player skill and mana management to do that. Wait until you come across a build who has 3 rangers dropping spirits everywhere. Now thats exciting.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by LouderthanSeth
I love guild wars. I've been playing online games for the better part of 5 years. But not once have I ever cried nerf in any game (not even through daoc) untill now. It's about Aeromancer team builds. My guild and I have fought through many variations of these air builds and it all ended up the same way. Defeat. Everyone seemed to have the same problem untill, of course, they made they're own air team build.
I personaly decided I would never make this build due to (maybe a missunderstanding) the non-exisistant tatics in playing this build (simply target while 4 air e/me spam lightning spells). We have found a few ways to try and counter this build (mostly mesmer skills) but its just not working. Perhalps they should tone down the air damage? I hope so because as playing a warrior/monk and going down in roughly 3 secs with 3 monks on the team is not cutting it for me (trust me its not the gear either). Anyone feel the same way or is this rant just unfounded? |
toastgodsupreme
Obsidian flesh anyone?