.. rushers abusing arenas.

Wow.

Kind of surprised to see this thread still alive.

He made it to Draknor's Forge, at least. He had the end-game armor.

He never cheated. My creating this thread was more to acquire the eye of the devs in hope something might be done to remedy what I figure was an oversight.

Consider the whole hoo-haa over people having an "unfair advantages" over other people who don't have the time necessary (they're casual, as they say), I'm surprised the defense this thread has netted.

I can see where you are coming from, people tend to use the word cheat to freely. When they could have chosen a more fitting word. No one was netting a defense. I can clearly see both sides of the argument now I will agree with poeple saying this could be an exploit but defintely not a cheat.

I was also however trying to show some people that alot of people play games this way. because they beat it once and feel rewarded play it again, not so rewarding so they roll a character and see how far they can get what gear they can get at the lowest lvl possable while trying to get the best stuff they can. However some people tend to brag more than others and flaunt there stuff. So it also come down to the players atitude as well.

For example I had 2 superiors and 2 majors and and a bag of rare weapons to choose from for an alt i rolled as soon as i came out of pre that I had found for with aprevious character. Samething but I do not go to arena's so I doubt I will ever see anyone going around calling me a cheat or an exploiter.

See where some of us might be comeing from?

Why put restrictions on gear why not put restrictions on arena's. I mean you still would have issues somewhat. But you are talking about a pretty complex issue its not always straght forward approach.

Not sure I follow you on what you are reffering to as an oversight. I can think of 3 things you might be referring to lornar's, arena's ,and gear which one I am not sure. if its lornar's everyone can go thru there it is a shorter timespan to do that than to do some of this missions/playfields in this game. only the devs could do somethign about gear and arena's. If they do anything I hope it will be to the arena's.

*****Edit/added this*** most people that take the time to read forums and post long winded replys more than often try to see where you might be coming from. there is always gonna be someone with a setup or gear that can top yours its all part of the game if everyone had the same crap and same skill loadouts the game would be very boring and would have a longer shelf life than harddrive life. you even said you assumed he ment he was wearing dronar's armor. Did you miss where I clearly pointed out that he had to go to the ascention missions to get that skill. there is only one way there and thats going the way of the story. Even tho he does not have to do the missions he had to take the same route everyone else does. I just find your case dwindling by a thread if there is still a case.

Still open minded tho

Big props to the one who did this... after all, everyone knows that what you do here means something, that bypassing content to get the reward without having to invest the time and work the developers intended is a sign of true prowess, and the owning young players with gear you're not intended to have at level ten is almost as fun as pulling legs off flies (more fun when those you kicked are upset by it, of course).

So like, give the guy some respect. Goodness knows how many hours he might have spent on this if he hadn't found a way to bypass the intended progress. I mean, really, don't any of you realise this is important!
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(In case you missed it, all the above was laced with a lethal dose of sarcasm.)

Since I've played and know Sango, I let her know about this about this and is a bit suprized by this. Take in consideration she is has 4 characters.

Working with 4 characters to get to lvl 20 not jumping, is time consuming. Only her primary character (water ele) did everything. Two other characters jumped (lighting ele - being one of them) and the last character in development not jumping.

The armor being used on the lighting ele is the Crystal Desert collectors, not Droknar's (since you can't get that armor style she's using from crafters, only collector). The reason for the arena is for testing skills out and to lvl up to finally get accepted into groups at the Crystal desert mission.

The light ele was recently used in tombs and did quite well - she still prefer's using her water ele which does good as well.

That's still pretty crappy but not quite as crappy. It's very much taking an unfair advantage.

I hope they fix it. I think that a lot of people new to PvP decide in that arena whether they will ever do PvP again.

*edit: Fix the armor if you consider this "unfair". Dont touch creative players. Nothing more to say.

Theres nothing wrong with making a video that runs 4-5times normal speed. I think it's a little on the impossible side to run the game that far in 30-45 minutes .

Just make all items with minimum level restrictions to use, make all areas have guards posted that demand minimum level requirements. Done and done.

Allowing trade of items between characters is only going to permit people to run around with high powered items and skills so even though the above gets implimented. There will be a way around it.

more whining and whining. i am sick to death of hearing it.

if we have fully ascended and finished the game on one character who the hell do you guys think you are by making is go through all the games content a second and 3rd time? get a clue. PvP arenas mean nothing only the tombs has anything whatsoever meaningful (fame).

I finished the game weeks ago on my main character and do not feel the need to go thruogh all the missions a second and third time on my other 2.

if i want to ascend at level 4 it is my choice it does not affect you at all!!!

if i want to try and run through lornars pass it does not affect you at all!!!

as long as it is not "cheating" which it most certainly is not then please mind your own business. i am sick and tired of people trying to dictate game play to others.

I've no real problem with people doing anything they can within the rules of the game, why restrict people unnecessarily ?

We have to remember though, that the restricted lvl arenas are there for a reason. If it gets to the point that half the people competing are heavilly twinked second characters, then those arenas are no longer filling their purpose, and you may aswell scrap them and just force everyone to wait until they can play in Tombs.

Personally I'd just like to see equipment restrictions. Skills, even the Elite ones, are roughly balanced. Double armour value, however, is not something that can easily be countered.

Heck, I don't care if they come up with a single button that says "I won" we'll call it the I won button and you can unlock everything.

It's no skin off my nose. If the 10 and under arena's don't mean anything then stay away from there because characters wearing armor that they can't possibly earn on their own are ruining it for everyone else.

Nobody is asking to limit player creativity, or at least I'm not, and I'm certainly not asking to close off Lornars. I'm just saying anyone that runs Lornars and wears Drak armor should not be allowed in a 10 and under arena.

It's an unfair advantage, and one you all know dang well you couldn't have earned on your very first character.

If you want to short cut the game that's fine with me, truly fine but when you take an unfair advantage to a newbie arena you ruin it for all the people that are trying it out for the first time.

Do the first timers learn from the experience when a level 10 monk in Censor gear can stand there and be hit by two warriors without dying? I've seen that and the answer is no. They learn to hate PvP because they feel like they're doing something wrong when they're not.

It would be nice if people had the common sense to be moral and stay away from the 10 and under in overpowered armor but if they do not then I hope A-net steps in and makes the situation right.

I've seen a lvl 10 monk like that in the arena (had max damage armor) - took quite a while to defeat but it's quite a challenge.

If people have more than one character and didn't shortcut it with their first character, there isn't a problem shortcutting with the other characters. I can tell you that, lot of people have done it and may also than one Guild Wars account (in fact some do).

There's nothing run with running to Lornar's at level 3 or ascending at level 3. However, when you purposely do so for the sake of coming back to level 10 arenas and overpowering new players, then it becomes griefing.

I agree, a equipment restriction on level 10 arenas wouldn't be that hard to implement, and would fix most of this.

I was just playing in the arena at old Ascalon with my new character (Wo/M9). I went three rounds with a specific team until I got bored, because one of their players had certain equipment that killed off my whole team before you could say "oh my goodness".

What makes it worse is, in all three rounds the rest of his team (three players and two pets) were just stood back watching. Must've been real fun for them.

How anyone can defend this kind of player is beyond me, these kids need to get over their fear of level 20 players and stop killing level 10's with wimpy armour and weapons to feel big and tough.

The heart of the issue is not someone bypassing everything to reach the end. If they can do it, all the power to them.

The issue is people using this higher equipment and skills on others that either cannot do what they did, or don't know how.

Go fight in the Lion's Arch arena (or better yet, whatever PUG arena is next after that). You'll gain more experience because of the massive level differential.

Fighting in the level 10 arena with gear and skills you don't 'naturally' get until after the level 20 arena is unbalanced and self-centered.

So are 100% legit things, such as repeatedly helping newer players on mission and hoarding the gold.

Why not you give me all your money, to show how balanced and unselfish you are?

There's a difference between helping someone with a mission and having your randomly generated share of the gold and loot, and the act of going into a level 10 arena just to beat up newbies.

The difference is that one's being helpful, one is being a coward and/or a bully.

IMO, nothing is stopping people who get slaughtered by Forge runners from doing their own Forge run to level the playing field.

Whether or not GW is a "grind-free" or "not item based" game is not the point. Isn't one of the long-standing ideals of serious PvP competition to obtain the best tools for the job?

..because you don't deserve it?

..and the level 10/15 arenas are serious competition with all those new players.

Right, I don't deserve your gold, but those people who bothered to go out and fetch themselves a set of Droknar's armor do, right? Who's to decide who deserves what, and on what basis?

And if the low level arena's are serious competition, then they should go and get some Droknar's armor. That's the point I was trying to make.

You're missing one very large point; The playing field is level without these rushers abusing the arena. Ask yourself this: Why can these people not keep the "uberl33t" equipment in the high-end arenas and fight fair? I think the answer is simple, they're cowards and/or bullies, and would prefer to wipe out an entire team solo in something like twelve clicks.

Yes it is, but you're focusing on the wrong area of discussion here. It's not specifically about the tools, it's about the job. The job, in this case, is an under level 10 arena. Simply put, would you use a tank to hammer a nail into a piece of wood? I thought not. That's why you don't use uberl33t weapons in the under level 10 arena, it's overkill. I can't see the fun in smacking down a whole team in under 30 seconds effortlessly just because I twinked equipment onto my new character.

True, but what about this scenario:

Someone out there was in fact a dickhead, and decided to twink. Then he (let's assume girls wouldn't do this kind of BS ) proceeded to own in low level PvP. Then, since others didn't want to be at a disadvantage, they did it as well. It is only because certain people who thought themselves chivalrous or noble decided NOT to continue this trend that people complain about the problem. If everyone simply got some Droknar's armor then it'd be fine. Yes, some people cannot/don't want to do that...but if that's the case...why go into a serious PvP arena? If you're not committed to the fight, or are looking for "fun" expect to lose a few.

ALSO

What about those twinkers who don't do it to mess with other people's fun? What if they wanted to do their missions with a bit of an upperhand (which they DO in fact deserve, for saving up and beating the game legit) If a level requirement were to be applied it would totally ruin these honest players.

Also, if you put a level 20 requirement on Droknar armor, they will simply go down a step and purchase the tier-two armor. If you put restrictions on all the armors, then that's just absurd, because some players are faster than others and may be a bit low level when they arrive at new locations. And lo and behold they are punished for being adventurous and daring with a stupid level restriction on the armor that they deserve to wear.

..and suddenly, to be able to have fun (and win) in the level 10/15 arenas, Droknar's Forge runs will be REQUIRED.

Tell me that doesn't defeat the integrity of that area of the game.

Bottom line, there is NO reason for someone to be using gear that cannot be acquired in the areas around the level 10/15 arenas except to insure a better chance of victory for the purpose of being noticed and remembered by teammates and opponents.

So you're basically saying; "It's okay, because if anyone really cared about competing in the low-level arenas they'd finish the game and become twinkers." There's one big thing wrong with this, and I don't know what to say if you cannot see it: That philosophy would entirely defeat the point in even having low level arenas.

The low level arenas are there for people of lower levels to fight on a level playing field against similar (but not equal) opponents with items and abilities native to them. With what you're suggesting, they might as well remove the low level arenas altogether and tell everyone to go to the Hall Of Heroes if they want to fight anybody at all.

There already is a level requirement of a sort, you cannot go past level 10 in terms of XP in the Ascalon arena. This obviously means that the arena is intended for people of level 10 and below to play amongst themselves without the headache they'd face fighting in a level 20 arena.

I'm not saying to but a level requirement on anything. What I'm saying is that I question some people's ability to handle competition without an "I win" button. I imagine, beyond all reasonable doubt, that these are the sorts of people who can't play video games without enabling God mode.

These people don't need a block on being able to do this, they simply need to question the point in it. If they want to fight in all their uber armour and weapons, what is stopping them from doing it in the endgame arenas? Honestly, answer me that.

Maybe they were looking for an arena where the people have a set limit to their base HP. It's not really about the items.

What's wrong with that? If you think that's wrong, then come out and say it. As for "defeating the integrity of the game" limiting players so linearly is defeating the integrity as well. As it is, GW gives the players freedom to go to high level areas when they are at low levels. Unless Arenanet completely illiminates the connection between Droknar's and Beacon's, then you can't argue the whole "area" ideal.

Bottom line is, it's not that the armor gives an unfair advantage (it is huge) but it's a FAIR advantage. It is open to all people to go and get the armor. Also, the people may be "abusing" the Pass in PvP, but if you stop this, you are taking away from non abusers as well. People will always find ways to abuse and exploit.

With all due respect, Principa Discordia, do you know the way every low level PvPer thinks? This is not the same game as Diablo 2, but the problem here is nearly the same:

Level 9 PvPing in Diablo, the bare minimum. Normal level 9's dish out around 100 damage to monsters. However, specialized level 9 PvPers trade and farm for items which can boost their damage output to the 1000's, effectively making "casual" level 9 PvPing impossible. Who is at fault? No one is what I would say. If you want to play level 9 PvP you need to get serious and get those items.

Same thing for Guild Wars. Maybe the players are looking for an arena where everyone is pretty much godly equipped, except the life totals are lower than level 20 arenas. Low level PvPing has always been a cult hit in many PvP games, so you never know. The Forge runners "abuse" is simply the introduction of elitism and the need for the godliest possible options for PvP. You can see this already introduced into the level 20 arenas, with people putting emphasis on unlocking all skills and upgrades.

Now you're just repeating yourself and not even addressing my two main points.

A.) Low level PvP arenas are self-explanatory. They are for low level players to compete in on a level playing field when they are not out doing something else. No single character should be able to wipe out the entire opposing team effortlessley. Telling everyone to "twink or don't play" in the low level PvP arenas defeats their entire point, and by your logic they should simply remove them and let everyone compete in the Hall Of Heroes etc. right out of the character creation screens.

B.) Those people who can wipe out an entire opposing team effortlessley are obviously in an arena below their capabilities and should move on. There is no reason not to move on, unless they fear the challenge of an even fight without an "I win" button.

I'm keeping my patience, but until you address these two points I have no need to read what you're saying. You are repeating yourself but giving not explaining your point of view.

Honestly, I'm trying my hardest to address those points. Maybe I'm just confusing. Anyways, here's another attempt. Hopefully you'll get what I'm saying:

A) If they don't get rid of the option for low levels wearing Droknar armor, then this will always happen. In that case, they will HAVE to get the armor, like I said. Yeah, I know it sucks. If they DO get rid of the option, that would ruin things for some people out there who aren't low level PvPing, but that would fix this problem.

I believe you CAN go HoH from the creation screen. Isn't there an option to HoH with a PvP character?

B) While it's true some may possibly be afraid of higher skilled opponents and prefer to pick on handicapped enemies, but some others might also prefer low level fighting. Less available skills, less life, etc. However, in this scenario, one would opt to get the best equipment, right? Who wouldn't? I wouldn't handicap myself just so people see me as a "cool casual gamer."

That is pretty much my opinion that I was trying to state on the two issues you brought up.

Going to side with Discordia on this one. We're starting to just go round and round in circles. I'm out too.

Thanks for clarifying, that's all I needed.

I think I'm understanding your point in this particular matter, but I'm still not entirely sure. From what you've said in this thread, and in another, I'm seeing two distinct "attitudes" about the situation.

One is of a "well they should twink or they're not doing it right and have no business being in the arena" sort of tone, the other is of a "it's a shame they might be forced into twinking just to compete, but in the current system it's a fact of life." Could you possibly clarify which one is the correct one? There's a world of difference to me.

As for the actual issue at hand: I'm trying to avoid the "technical" side of this discussion, talking about things like hard level caps on armour and whatnot, because both sides rarely gain from such measures. I'm trying to stick to the morality side of it, and why people feel the actual need to set foot in a low level arena with such a huge advantage. Yes, they can get the equipment and they worked hard to do so, good for them, but really does it have any place in competition of this nature?

I'm of the belief that just because something can be done, it doesn't mean that it neccessarily should be done in the interest of doing something right. In better terms; I fail to see the fun, the challenge, or the skill in effortlessley squashing n00bs with a huge advantage I may have. The only thing stopping this sort of behaviour from being out-right cheating is that the system allows it, through design or through accident.

As for the Hall Of Heroes on a PvP character, doesn't that really just reaffirm my point? If low level players wanted high-end PvP, it's right there at the click of a button. If they didn't want an "under level 10 fight", they wouldn't be in the Ascalon arena in the first place, they'd be having fun whacking away with many of the skills on a PvP character. Hell, I can say this from experience; in the past when I've felt like going beyond my current character without doing the work, I've snapped my fingers and had a PvP character ready to play.

You're right in that some people may simply prefer the low level fighting, but I'm affraid I don't think that it's low level fighting at all if you can wipe out an entire team effortlessley on the one condition that all your equipment is worlds ahead.

If they wanted to really have low level fights, they'd make a new character and get him to level 10. It only takes an afternoon. Maybe Arenanet should include a "low level insta-character" creation menu, the way there's one for fully templated characters.

Well thank you for not giving up on me like a certain someone >.>

Well, they may be a world of difference, but I accept them both. This is why I am not anti-twinking. I don't support it, but it is definitely a necessity if you want to beat other twinkers, and I definitely am not going to cry/bitch about it. I see the necessity to twink as a fact and if I ever pick up level 10 PvP I am well prepared to twink, even knowing that twinking is generally frowned upon.

HOWEVER, I would probably do some "real" low level PvPing using normal armor just for the heck of it. But I will expect to run into the twinkers, and I will expect to lose :/

Also I think it's a shame that those people who wish to have "maximum low level PvP" as I call it, will have to relegate themselves to either level 20 PvP to be "fair" or else they will have to purposely handicap themselves when they have access to Droknar's armor.

Anyway you look at it, its just bad taste of the player.
probably he got his ass kicked to much in high level, and got frustrated. now trying to ruin the game for others. bravo.
this is a game of skill, and he is trying to bend the odds in his favor by equipment and stuff he shouldn't have. sure, one can argue that if he can get it, he can play it. but i doubt the devs intended the starter arena that way.
then again, arena is like russian roulette anyway. you never know if the skills you bring will work out in the team you enter.

Makkert, I'm afraid you are assuming that. Even if you spoke to a few of those people, not all of them are "losers who get their asses handed to them so now they pick on noobs"

I agree with your Russian roulette analogy, though. These people who get Droknar's armor are simply attempting to lower their chances of blowing their head off. Is that wrong? It is an option to everyone. Even those without a guild can get Droknar's armor. It may take a bit longer but it's possible. Also, they could join a guild who will perform these services.

I agree that this is a game of Russian Roulette and that it's okay to lower your chances of being the one to die... But... You do that through practise, and through communication with your team (easily done before the gates open unless your team is composed entirely of morons). But, unfortunately, these people aren't just "increasing their chances" of surviving the Russian Roulette, they're loading the gun with blanks.

It's an "I win" button.

I still stand by my theory that these are people who cannot cope in higher level arenas.

are you and I playing the same game? This storyline is one of the worst story lines of any game i've ever played....it lacks content in so many areas.

the gameplay certainly makes up for the storyline...but it's completely obvious that the storyline only exists because they HAD to put it in....