Why is there no Martial Arts?

Raumoheru

Raumoheru

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2005

With the latest Beta Event the new Monk animation for dancing and for flexing are obviously Martial Arts based, so why are there no Martial Arts in Guild Wars? It would definitly make for a much better Primary Only attribute then Divine Favor which is just a weaker combination of Healing Prayers, Protection Prayers, and Smiting Prayers. If they have Special Defensive and Offensice Skills that would make playing a Monk much more fun.

Loviatar

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Feb 2005

maybe next chapter

worthless

worthless

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2005

TX

divine favor is a pretty good primary attribute

Kha

Kha

Sins FTW!

Join Date: Mar 2005

USA

Angel Sharks [AS]

Monks are not meant to be healers, casters and martial artists/fighters. They are mostly healers/protectors with some smiting/offensive magic. If you want to get into being physical, then you pick warrior for your secondary. If this attribute was added, you could go with Mo/Me or M/E for example, and the "Martial Arts" attribute would be close to having Tactics. Would be like three professions in one and doesn't sound very balanced.

Getting rid of one of the best (in my opinion THE best) primary attribute in the game would be... well... stupid, especially to replace it with an attribute that would completely contradict what the monk is. It would be nice if they did have a martial artist profession in the future expansions. It would compliment the monk and other professions nicely. If Divine Favor was truly just a weaker combination of the others, why would anyone use it?

There's a difference between "fun" and "easy".

MoldyRiceFrenzy

MoldyRiceFrenzy

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Feb 2005

Santa Rosa, CA

Confusion in The Ranks[tArD]

Mo/W

dunno maybe theyre saving it for a primary profession next chaptor or somthing.??

spiritofcat

spiritofcat

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2005

Sydney, Australia

Order of the Sanguine Dragon [OSD]

E/Mo

In many other action RPGs monks are martial arts fighters. But as has been said over and over again, Guild Wars isn't like other action RPGs, it tries to do things differently. So I agree that monks should stay the way they are, but I wouldn't be adverse to seeing a martial arts based profession in the next chapter.

HotSnack

HotSnack

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by spiritofcat
In many other action RPGs monks are martial arts fighters. But as has been said over and over again, Guild Wars isn't like other action RPGs, it tries to do things differently. So I agree that monks should stay the way they are, but I wouldn't be adverse to seeing a martial arts based profession in the next chapter.
I'll have to agree. If GW followed everything by the book, then Rangers would be a bunch a dagger/short sword wielding dex fighters, and if that happens then what will the future Rogue class in expansions do?

Monks in GW are the designated healers anyway, so I see little point in bunging martial arts into them (they already have Smite after all). And I'd rather see martial arts as a fleshed out class than a single line attribute. Even then, if they were to include one I'd rather give them the time to make a better thought out one than the usual 'poorly equipped warrior' that plagues most games;

Why what's that? You can set your fists alight with Ki you say? My, that took you to be lvl 50 to do you say? Oh what's this? Why, it's my +100 Flaming Sword of Doom. Oh, your fists only go up to +60 even with your Ki buffs? The please, take my sword. Oh no, don't worry, I have a bunch of these swords back when I was lvl 40...

Raumoheru

Raumoheru

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2005

Quote:
Why what's that? You can set your fists alight with Ki you say? My, that took you to be lvl 50 to do you say? Oh what's this? Why, it's my +100 Flaming Sword of Doom. Oh, your fists only go up to +60 even with your Ki buffs? The please, take my sword. Oh no, don't worry, I have a bunch of these swords back when I was lvl 40...
and what is that supposed to mean?


@ Kha

Monks in the D&D games all have martial arts and it does not unbalance the game.

and please, tell me, how is divine favor in any way usefull?

i think the stregnth for warriors is the most usefull primary attribute so far because it adds armor penetration which makes them deal more damage.

Kha

Kha

Sins FTW!

Join Date: Mar 2005

USA

Angel Sharks [AS]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raumoheru
@ Kha

Monks in the D&D games all have martial arts and it does not unbalance the game.

and please, tell me, how is divine favor in any way usefull?

i think the stregnth for warriors is the most usefull primary attribute so far because it adds armor penetration which makes them deal more damage.
Monks in a lot of games have martial arts, but that's not what the monks in GW are designed to be. They're not fighters, they are healers. They are more or less priests in a unique way. Just because something has the same name doesn't always mean they are supposed to or should be identical.

Divine Favor has some great skills (Aura of Faith, Peace and Harmony, Signet of Devotion) and has one of the best passive traits to it. It adds healing to your spells even if they aren't healing spells. You can cast protective magic and heal your ally as a side effect, or cast healing magic and add to its power.

And the armor penetration of Strength is nice, but it is conditional in that the higher the enemy's armor, the more worth you will get out of it. It's still a great attribute and it does have some great skills too, but I think Divine Favor, Expertise and Energy Storage are better primaries (not necessarily in that order).

HotSnack

HotSnack

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raumoheru
and what is that supposed to mean?
If you read the text above it, you'll see it's to illustrate my point that a lot of the times, monks (not talking GW here) are the poor man's warrior. What they gain in innate abilities they lose out on in using certain armour and weapons. Sometimes this gap is very apparent, especially in loot heavy games.

Raumoheru

Raumoheru

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2005

so is it safe to say that most of you would NOT want to have martial arts?

i just like fist fighting and dont like how a char is only as strong as the gear he carries (warrior)

Kha

Kha

Sins FTW!

Join Date: Mar 2005

USA

Angel Sharks [AS]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raumoheru
so is it safe to say that most of you would NOT want to have martial arts?
Not have it with the Monk profession? Yes.

Not have it in the game? No. Would love to see another profession in a future expansion with it.

HotSnack

HotSnack

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2005

I have no problems with unarmed combat, rather just how it is usually implemented.

If it was to be included, then it'd have to be taken at a different perspective than just 'warrior without weapons'. An unarmed class can't do more damage than Warriors (you'd make Warrior players cry, after all), so instead they need to take up a different role on the team.

Off the top of my head, an unarmed class instead make up for it being able inflict most status effects, and with ease. That and maybe have their own unique 'grappling' ability that allows them to do some interesting things such as holding an opponent, only to have both become vunlerable to extra damage because of it.

Kha

Kha

Sins FTW!

Join Date: Mar 2005

USA

Angel Sharks [AS]

Quote:
Originally Posted by HotSnack
I have no problems with unarmed combat, rather just how it is usually implemented.

If it was to be included, then it'd have to be taken at a different perspective than just 'warrior without weapons'. An unarmed class can't do more damage than Warriors (you'd make Warrior players cry, after all), so instead they need to take up a different role on the team.

Off the top of my head, an unarmed class instead make up for it being able inflict most status effects, and with ease. That and maybe have their own unique 'grappling' ability that allows them to do some interesting things such as holding an opponent, only to have both become vunlerable to extra damage because of it.
Yeah. This would be the problem of adding another physical type character. What should his/her attacks be focused on? I do like the idea of a sort of "grappling" kind of moves focused more on status effects and interrupting your opponent rather than just holding them in place. But if the Martial Arist (or whatever you want to call it) focused on, say, the "weak" points of its foe, you could have it doing special moves that add conditions and/or interrupt skills. Then you might have an interesting build... but wouldn't it be like a physical mesmer and necromancer? You need the Martial Artist to provide something unique to the professions of GW, and I'm too tired to try to think about what that would be any longer, lol.

Bousiris Hierophos

Bousiris Hierophos

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Mar 2005

Me/Mo

Quote:
An unarmed class can't do more damage than Warriors (you'd make Warrior players cry, after all), so instead they need to take up a different role on the team.
It always bothered me in other MMORPGs I've played, to see monks do more damage with fists than a warrior or other armed character could ever do. A martial arts class could be focused on some sort of staff or knuckle weapon, though ...

Actually, here's a new profession idea I was kicking around. Criticism is welcome (and probably inevitable). But it's an idea for another physical-type character somewhere between the D2 assassin and GW ranger.

I call it:

ACROBAT
A lightly armored melee class with some multi-tasking skills. Specializes in stealth and dexterity-based (yes I know there's no DEX in GW but you get the idea) fighting at melee distance, rather than at range.

Attributes for this character could be something like:

Martial Arts - would include attack skills, evades, etc.

Staff Mastery - would include special attacks when using baton or staff type weapons.

Dances - special "dances" the character performs that would have various spell effects, e.g. summoning spirits like ranger nature rituals, or enemy caster disruption.

Balance (primary attribute) - reduces energy cost and/or casting time of non-spell attack skills and dances.

There would be a certain degree of jack-of-all-trades to this character, high versatility with mitigated effectiveness. But personally I'd love to play a character like this.

I hope the GW devs are reading this ...

DarkWasp

DarkWasp

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2005

Paradise

Agency Of Forbidden Fruits [Oot]

R/A

maybe instead of martial arts they should do the vulcan death grip thing.

Weezer_Blue

Weezer_Blue

Elite Guru

Join Date: Feb 2005

Just a Box in a Cage

Hurry Up The Cakes [Oven]

Why aren't there Ninjas in the Lord of the Rings?!

spiritofcat

spiritofcat

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2005

Sydney, Australia

Order of the Sanguine Dragon [OSD]

E/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by HotSnack
Off the top of my head, an unarmed class instead make up for it being able inflict most status effects, and with ease. That and maybe have their own unique 'grappling' ability that allows them to do some interesting things such as holding an opponent, only to have both become vunlerable to extra damage because of it.
Yes, I like that idea.
How about martial artists that focus not on dealing damage, but on distracting and inconveniencing the enemy.
For example, as you said, grappling, or holding the enemy still while the other players attack, or attacking pressure points to weaken the enemy.
Also imagine a very fast martial artist who could easily get in there with kicks and punches that do little damage but interrupt spells or have a chance of disarming the opponent.

Mango Midget

Mango Midget

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2005

Under a hippo.

TC

Me/W

Monk needs taekwondo.I am a black belt and it fun.
There should also be the class of Assasin

Kirbie

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2005

in guildwars, monk is considered supportive profession.
warrior receive/deals damage, monk heal/buffs.
warrior needs monk, monk needs warrior.
if monk can do decent melee with martial art...no one would choose warrior.
and monk would no longer depends on warrior for protection.
martial art monk already having good healing with protection skills will make a monk superior melee profession.
As other people appreciates monk for healing...monk appreciates team for protection.....great team spirit as guildwars is designed for skills and teamwork

damage dealing is fun...but in guildwars, healing/buffing is also fun too.
you will probably really busy healing people rather than go melee and do martial art stuff.

i think the reason ArenaNet put martial art as monk's dance is to show true nature of monk. monk is considered highly disciplined. and they symbolize that traits through performing martial art as dance.
just my thoughts.

p.s: to use martial arts as distraction...i think thats where mesmer is used for...to distract.

Striker Shardale

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2005

Twin Cities, Minnesota

Serious Gaming -SG-

R/Mo

Okay... let me first state one thing.

WHAT THE H-E-DOUBLE HOCKEY STICKS!!! lol

Monks are meant to be defensive, so in that aspect they should not have taekwando/karate/ninjitsu/fuzzle nugget attacks in the first place, that is where the secondary or primary power set comes into play. I could see some form of martial arts coming out in the future expansions but it would seem very weird I could see it now...

(Me)-((enter expansion name here)) eh? Hmmm, all these cool new classes, etc....neat!!...wait...martial arts? WTF?

Seriously though, I could only see martial arts working in it if it if they were magic moves. Normal martial arts would not be that effective against an archer...mage...or a group of angry bearded men weilding swords, axes, aces, etc.

Eh, that's my opinion and I am sticking to it.

Raumoheru

Raumoheru

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2005

Quote:
It always bothered me in other MMORPGs I've played, to see monks do more damage with fists than a warrior or other armed character could ever do. A martial arts class could be focused on some sort of staff or knuckle weapon, though ...
well there are people who can break a cement slab by hitting it with their fist i see no reason as to why you cant do it in a game

the thing with martial arts is they have high damage and can attack fast, but have poor armor, which is why people would still pick warrior over monk.

this is coming from the perspective of D&D games and EverQuest II

HotSnack

HotSnack

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirbie
p.s: to use martial arts as distraction...i think thats where mesmer is used for...to distract.
Right, in this scenario Unarmed is to Mesmer as Warrior is to Elementalist.

The Unarmed class could probably be an amalgamation of Necro and Ele, being able to pull off debuffs, knockdowns and hey, maybe the first class to actually be able to inflict the 'exhaustion' condition, to compensate for the fact that it won't hit as hard as Warriors.

rixxxster

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Apr 2005

Two words, Teras Kasi!

Taranis

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue
Why aren't there Ninjas in the Lord of the Rings?!
MUAHAHAAHA...Thats worth a spot in my sig...

HotSnack

HotSnack

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue
Why aren't there Ninjas in the Lord of the Rings?!
They do, he's called Legolas.

A nimble fighter that performs the 'cool' kills, while possessing long flowing hair and a pretty boy's face? That's an anime ninja if any.

Weezer_Blue

Weezer_Blue

Elite Guru

Join Date: Feb 2005

Just a Box in a Cage

Hurry Up The Cakes [Oven]

haha... no... definatly not. he's an archer with a couple small swords. he rarely does anything ... er... ninja-like. he stabs and slices stuff a lot... and one time he did that thing where he rides the shield down the stairs... and one time he flipped onto his horse... none of that was in a the book, however... so... he's not a ninja... he's a nimble elf.

anyway... they say being quoted is the greatest honor right? heh.

Phoenix Avenger

Phoenix Avenger

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2005

Wisconsin

Eternal Knights

E/Mo

How well do you think hands and feet would be against swords and hammers?

Kha

Kha

Sins FTW!

Join Date: Mar 2005

USA

Angel Sharks [AS]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix Avenger
How well do you think hands and feet would be against swords and hammers?
Martial artists aren't aiming to block swords and hammers with their hands. They disable the limbs that are holding the swords and hammers and then go for other vital body parts. The idea is to have an inner focus, which would be a kind of spiritual/magical power in GW. It would be very logical for a Martial Artist to fight a Warrior in GW.

gangguard

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Feb 2005

Vasburg Armoury

A/W

Yes they disable people and maybe endure attacks better than other Char, the shaolin can bend a spear pointing at its nck and using the neck to bend the spear. They can also have Metal fists??? and probably have spells that cue up combos like other "action" games. for example (kick, punch, kick) first you kick the enemy to the ground u punch him which makes him get a deep wound then kick him to make him dazed... And basically Martial artist are speed fighters ad warriors are strength. So when they're so many ranged professions why not have many melee professions.

What I think the attributes should be
Primary: Agility (increases attack rate and decreasing casting times)
Kung Fu (basically kick punch moves)
Chi (using the power of chi, focusing the mind...)
Spirit of the Dragon (Extreme power.......*no flying*)

Xellos

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2005

No Idea

I never understood why martial art monk was so popular. I know it probably came from NWN, but this is just absurd. Every game in development so far has a bunch of kiddies asking for monks=martial artists.

spiritofcat

spiritofcat

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2005

Sydney, Australia

Order of the Sanguine Dragon [OSD]

E/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos
I never understood why martial art monk was so popular. I know it probably came from NWN, but this is just absurd. Every game in development so far has a bunch of kiddies asking for monks=martial artists.
NWN? I think not... The expansion pack for the original Diablo had a martial arts monk.
I'm not very familiar with D&D, but I think that had them too.

Xellos

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2005

No Idea

Diablo 1 was never popular enough to make a big impact. Compare the people who played Diablo 2 or Starcraft to the people who've even played Diablo 1. You'll see a massive difference.

Elonis

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2005

Some break in the fabric of reality.

well final fantasy tactics had a monk that used fist attacks.. and it was quite a nice job class. My favorite attack was earth slash where you punched the ground and created a shockwave that attacked all enemies in a straight line. also they did alot of damage because they always aimed at the head (a vital spot for non helmet wearers).
Now going by real life most monks are robe wearing spiritual poeple who carry walking sticks so to speak(using moron talk to explain to those poeple, not dissin anyone). any if we were aim at healers why not call them clerics or medics but seriously why change something that we have grown acustom to in the game. now a ninja or assassin would fit the fight role nicely or hey even the profession being called martial artist.. wow thats hard to come up with

Sausaletus Rex

Sausaletus Rex

Death From Above

Join Date: Dec 2004

It's pretty clear that this thread is moving off into the land of candyfloss and unicorns. Much as some people would like to have a Grand Unified Role Playing System where we can all play our dual-wielding ninja/monk/shadow mages with velociraptor mounts, saddly, it looks like Guild Wars is not trying to be a carbon copy of each and every other game ever released. Imagine that, huh?

Locked.