Anet Is doing a great job... But they should remember a few things

Anet is in a bit of a tough spot here. On one hand, they have pretty much established that they are the most responsive developer team in the history of online games... On the other, now they have to try to live up to it.

Let me begin this by stating a basic rule of human nature. One person can be enlightened and intelligent and generally be on the ball.. People in groups however are complete idiots. The more people you get in a room, the lower the collective IQ. You would think that the effect would be quite the opposite, but trust me... that isn't the case. On the internet, that effect is generally twice as pronounced.

Rule number two: The worse the idea is, the more loudly an outspoken minority will support it. (see numerous threads on this very forum for reference)

Rule Number Three: The definition of a compromise (the way I see it) is a solution to a problem in which nobody is truly happy, but the maximum number of people are shut up.


This thread is written in the hope that maybe somebody from Anet will stumble across it and take it to heart.

Don't try to appease the avid (but often misguided) masses of Guild Wars Fans.

Don't let a bad idea get into the game just because there is a very vocal minority clamoring for it.

Don't compromise

This is a hell of a game, and I've thought so for the past two years while I watched it evolve. I would hate to see it warped away from its origional purity just because some people can never be happy.

If anyone thinks i'm out of line, go ahead and let yourself be heard. But remember that Gwen hates flame threads and will hurt you if you turn this into one.

If A.Net wants to pull this game out of the gutter, they need to look back at when people liked the game. When the worst thing anyone ever said was a misguided "20 levels? that sucks" or made suggestions about simplistic dyes! BETA! Beta was when we liked guildwars. Then they had to go and screw everyone on release. So what exactly does beta mean? It means UAS. And while they're add it, Unlock All Runes. And even Unlock All Upgrade Components. PvEers can bitch all they want. They have no grounds to complain. PvPers don't need to "earn" anything but they're rank and personal skills and team skills. And PvEers won't get screwed anyway. It's not like they can't make a PvP character, and if all their slots are filled up with 4 PvE characters? Well... That sounds like a personal problem to me. I don't make 4 PvP characters and then complain that I have no slots left.

Gwen already incinerated me... And I enjoyed it. If gwen came back and did it again, perhaps it would be the beta coming back, and I could hope that the next thing coming would be UAS and UAR.

Noone likes the game?
Sorry, but, mhm... never mind.

What about opening your eyes? There are quite a few people that like the game.


your PvE vs PvP points are just crazy, sorry to say, but you obviously didn't try to understand the "PvE"-People (but the problem is: there are PvE-People that like to do PvP, you need to consider this. There is more than just black and white - open your eyes and see the colors)

I think I'm turning the game off for a week or so until the next patch. Maybe when I wake up this nightmare will be over.

I have family over until next week and they're taking up all my time. Hopefully when they go next week just after update day there will be a miraculous change

The OP has good points, alas they have already been lost insofar as AN is concerned. Giving in to the minority who are whining about 'the grind' (it is patently obvious none of these players have ever endured a real grind in a game that they think GW is one) is very quickly removing the interest my partner and I have in playing.

We're not interested in seeing the rewards for PvE minimalized to keep PvP players happy.

We're not interested in seeing what time investment is required minimalized because some 13 year old (ok, ok... some 21 year old) doesn't think they should have to spend any time at the game to succeed at it.

We're not interested in having the sense of accomplishment undermined by increasing drop rates to make someone who has no interest in anything outside the arenas happy.

We've decided to stay through 20 (we're about 18 now) and hope things improve. If not, we'll be saying goodbye to Guild Wars.... if they're willing to compromise what challenge there is in the game to keep a group that doesn't care or appreciate anything but the arenas, they just aren't the game for us.

Rule number two: The worse the idea is, the more loudly an outspoken minority will support it. (see numerous threads on this very forum for reference)

That's all I have to say about that.

As to all these comments about GW going to the dogs and such... I don't think it has, yet. Though this recent patch seems like a bit of a temporary band-aid. I do hope everything gets set straight in the long run.

This bit about going back to when people liked the game... I think it's a bit much. I still like it quite a bit. I don't agree with a few of the changes that they have made, but I still have faith that they are going somewhere with this.

Fluidfox,

Good Post! I having been playing "games" since I was a child. "Risk" was my first and favorite when I was younger. I have played many many "Board Type" games since then. When computers came into being, well, of course I jumped at the possiblities of playing more games. I have been playing computer games since 1980. (On a TS-80 machine/Tape drive/all TYPE based)
I moved on through other systems. "Intellivision", "Commodore 64/128", My first IBM Clone 386 DX/40 w/4 megs ram . Now of course I play on the later type systems. My friends and I DREAMED of the day we could play with real people online in a nice graphic universe. Well that day has come. This is my first online game. (I will NOT pay another monthly bill...I have enough of those )

For all of Guild Wars "shortcomings" it is a wonderful game to play. The weak link to me is not so much the software as the HumanWare. People in this game are so rude and childish,selfish,etc. My friend's list is short. I only add decent/kind/caring people. They do not have to be a super player either. They do not have to be high level. They only have to be considerate of others and play nice. I have had more people ask me into their Guild because I take my time and "try" to play smart. In my time on this earth I have seen people become more and more rude and selfish. Ever drive on a freeway in rush hour? More and more people just do not care for others. They are pushy and short tempered. For what?? To save 5-10 minutes in a busy commute to and from work? This additude has carried over to the internet as well.

Guild Wars is a GREAT game. People of my age group have waited years and YEARS for such a game to play. I will not let spoiled brats get in my way. I am not talking age groups either. I have found allot of teen-aged players that are enjoyable to play with. I have found that women seem to be better players over men. It is a known fact that women tend to be more "detailed minded" then men too. This is a generalization I know. But a good one.

I will give ArenaNet time to make their fixes. I assume they are learning on the fly as well. I doubt I will ever see the perfect game in my lifetime so I am going to enjoy what I have now. It is way better then little sprite characters that I have played with over the years.

If anyone sees me online and understands what I am talking about here then feel free to ask me to join your groups. I do not care if you are starting a new character and it is an old mission/quest. I am willing to help and learn from YOU as well. I enjoy communicating with others in this game. To me that is where the FUN is. Running my buttocks off through a mission/quest just to DO IT is not what I look forward too.

"The Journey is ALL...the End is nothing"

I can only see this as likely if those generated characters are restricted to a select Arena. Much like the Unranked GvG games. They can play around with builds but, not play in the "real" game.

I really miss the Elite skill trainers but otherwise, I am very pleased with the game.

This game is not in the gutter. It hasn't been THAT long released and they are still tweaking it - so give them a break. No, I'm not a fanboi, there are things about the game I don't like (the difficulty of unlocking Sups for PvP, among other things, and being forced to farm).

But it's wrong to imply this game is somehow floundering in the doldrums, just because a small but vocal minority isn't happy.

The more you complain on both this site and on TGH, I really do wonder - is there not something better out there that will float your boat? Isn't life too short to incessantly moan and complain? Surely there are other great games out there that WILL give you what you're looking for.

They have ACKNOWLEDGED in the most recent update notes that there is an issue which they are working on with tangible results to be seen next week.

Good post, FluidFox; I agree wholeheartedly. But I think you forgot Rule Number Four:

The more you give, the more they bitch.


Anet: "We'll create a game with minimal grind."

Complainer: "Lies! All lies! Sure, ninety percent of the game is smooth sailing, but then I have to manually capture elite spells! They won't give me all of them at once! And I had to look for the super-rare runes! Where's my super-rare rune button? Anet, I will eat your children for this!"


I get the feeling most people haven't played any of the other MMORPGs, where you have to craft quite literally for hours just so you can make a ****ing belt-buckle.

And it's not just a PVP thing, either; PVEers are just as bad. Sometimes, that seems to be the only thread that unites the two camps: their propensity to bitch.

PVPers whine that it's a TERRIBLE, HORRIBLE GRIND to unlock elite skills. Anet listens, and tries to make it easier on them without bastardizing their original intention of putting at least a nominal amount of effort into unlock the high end skills. The PVEers immediately counter with how Anet STABBED THEM IN THE BACK --- they just took all the fun and challenge out of skill hunting! You've ruined the game! A pox on your databanks!


Anet: Hey, do you want a free muffin?

Complainer: Sure... Oh my sweet burning Jesus is that blueberry? I can't STAND blueberry! How dare you offer me this free muffin? It's obvious you're just trying to cater to the blueberry crowd --- it's shameless, really. I hate you so much Anet.


And you know, there actually are a few things I don't like about this game. But you know what? I keep that stuff mostly to myself. Anet makes this great game, with an affordable monthly fee (can't get more affordable than zero dollars), that basically runs on any shitbox PC you can find in your average city dump... so I'm not gonna start calling for the developers’ heads because I can't press a button that gives me all skills, all runes, a sigil, 9 million gold, and actually plays the game for me so I'm rescued from the unrelenting grind of enjoying myself.


But that's just me.

Sure, they're still tweaking it. Why though? It was perfect before. I don't see how they screwed it up so badly on the 27th - or whenever they constructed the monstrousity we know today. It's not the worst game... I still wouldn't play WoW... I guess that's something to show for your efforts.

As for UAS, I fail to see how it affects anyone in any way negatively. The only way it affects PvEers is that unless they use a PvP character, they have to grind to keep up with us. Hmm... I wonder how most PvPers feel?! Ohh... And it's not like if you declare yourself a PvEer, you can never use a PvP character now is it? I can't understand how they could say their slots are full and they want to PvE, if they only get 4 slots anyway. You'd think they'd be more aggrevated about that rather than ruining the PvP side of the game for 1 more character slot? Half the players rioting against UAS just don't understand the dilema, and the rest that aren't on either side? They've stopped playing. Over half my guild is inactive - mostly the PvP lovers. And the rest of us are all grinding to unlock runes and skills which is going very slowly. I just forced myself to ascend my third character. Why should I have to do that to have fun in the part of the game I like? I don't know. I'll just shut up, seeing as the game's gone down the wrong road, and the majority of idiots... Which a lot of you may or may not be a part of ... are just complaining about any solutions to the problem. Today, standing around LA district 1, I heard like 20 people *complain* about the new SoC system. Saying it was too easy, and such. Wow... Just wow...

Sollution: Seperate PVP from PVE! no sense for a RPG base where all AN wants to do is have people sit in the arenas screaming, "team looking for 3 monks." give all the straight PVP characters everything they whine about, and leave the PVE players alone to play the RPG part of the game in peice away from all the morons. AN pushes anymore on making this game a full PVP game i can see many customers soon leaving.

"Quiet Traveler" indeed.

Seperating cooperative from competetive play is not the solution to the problem. It'll only serve to widen the gap the community currently has, where the PvE shitheads scream at the PvP dicks. While a lot of this is down to the community, it screams of sloppy development, where rather than making a uniform game with a concrete design, Arena have slipped and made a game with seemingly no clear focus. The new patches seem to be clearing up some of the mess, crafting the game towards a single vision (the original one) rather than the current cluster**** of opposing visions. Guild Wars was released too early, no doubt about that, but give the live team some time to catch up and reduce the game into a single idea honed to elaborate completion.

Yes, this is what GW should aspire too! What we really want is a fantasy world that is even more dull, turgid and repetitive than the real one we are escaping from. Kids today are spoilt. Before even being able to log-on to Guild Wars people should be forced to play 500 hours of 'Pong'. In slow motion. On a black'on'black screen. That would really help make it so only the most determined, l337 players ever get to even start the game. Remember, folks, gaming is not about fun, it's about winning! It's about living your life vicariously through your online alter-ego because in real life no-one seems very interested in talking to you.

Trust me I have over 500 hours of PONG. The kicker is that we PAID to play it while drinking our beer. Ahhh....The 70's.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO there cowboy. This game isnt in the "gutter". I dont know where you are get this false misconception from but its 100% wrong. I think you stand alone in that room pal. Everyone knew the "unlock all skills" feature wasnt going to make it into release and if you didnt your a moron. It was just a beta feature. Its not like unlocking skills and getting runes is all that hard. I have just about every skill and rune I will need just from playing the game and not doing any farming yet, Im only at Thunderhead Keep.

Weezer... As much as I respect at least 10% of your posts. Please don't try to turn this into yet another Unlock All Skills thread. There are already about 3 of those where you can rant to your heart's content. This is not one of them.


Now it is fairly safe to say Anet has stumbled a couple of times along the way. I actually consider the Rune Trader to be an example of that. It needs to be fixed at the source. That vendor screams stop gap measure to me.


The point of this being that the game hasn't even cleared it's first six months. Plain and simple, we're the shakedown crew. We get to ride it out until they get all the kinks worked out.

I also believe that the game wasn't quite "ready" when they released it. One glaring example of this would be the 15k armors and the fact that a lot of them look exactly the same for ten times the price. They'll fix that eventually I'm sure, but it was sloppy. I think they were extremely hasty with the elite skill capture system as well. It even took the alpha testers by surprise and got almost no testing and feedback before release. Skills like Battle Rage and quite a few others were nearly impossible to capture. Why? Because the system hadn't been balanced and tested enough to reveal those flaws. That has more or less been taken care of now though. They are adressing the issues. They just have a lot of things to cross off the list. We are the shakedown crew. If anybody wants to jump ship feel free to do so. I plan to stick it out. No online game is perfect from day one. At least Anet has the tools at their disposal to make the game evolve at more than a snail's pace.

And quite frankly, I'm glad I've been able to play it even if it isn't "perfect" yet. I would have been much more upset if they had decided to push the date back 3 months so they could dot their I's and cross their T's.

WAA WAA WAA. We already can assume that some changes will be made soon (there are a ton complaints about the SoC system). We already know the game is in the middle of some big plans. We already know they're working on it.

"OMFG THEY MADE RUNES EASIER TO PRICE!!!!! OH NOES!!!! I'M GOING TO GO QUIT AND COMPLAIN ON THE FORUM BEFORE I EVEN WAIT A WEEK TO SEE how the game/economy begins to work!! "

They're making changes for the better but are accidentally going overboard in some places; I think we can all agree that we want the old SoC system back, and it will probably be changed. A majority of the stuff they DO DO turns out great though; it's just a few specific things that are a bit unfair that they messed up on. I'm totoally for the new Rune trader system, but I personally think galrath should be toned down to like 2k exp and the soc system should go back (imO).

Past level 20, it takes almost 21,000 experience to get a skill point. That's an obscene amount of work to be put into getting one skill. One skill out of the 200+ available. I'm not for Unlock All Skills, but the entire skill-gaining system is anything but fun, and needs a drastic overhaul. Now, if you didn't have to change professions to capture skills or grab skills from trainers (you just couldn't use them afterwards)... and if skill points were done away with entirely...

Hahahaha!

No.

I agree with Weezer_Blue :P but it seems everyone always has to disagree with something said by someone else on these forums. the only misconception is all the people that disagree with basically any idea posted on these forums have the ability to think. when in truth that is nothing but wrong, it only further drags out the fact that this game holds more morons than any other.

pong actually sounds like a better game to play atm.

Agreed - but effectively eliminating the need to actaully PLAY the game to get good characters and equipment is not the way to do it IMHO and with this latest patch - that seems to be the way ANet is steering GW.

What?

People are still complaining about the runes?

What the hell they could do ? rune prices were inflated as hell ... at the rate things were going we sould started to trade in runes instead of gold and anyone new to the game would have to farm to hell before they could effective trade with someone.

The rune trader fixed the rune market the same way the dye trader fixed the dye economy.

For me the only ones complaining about the rune trader are the farmers that inflated the market with exorbitant prices only vets could pay, I have no pity on people that just farm and farm to get a rune to sell it for 50k, expecialy were there is no reason to spend that 50k unless they made a new character and wanted him outfitted with everything good from the start.

The only problem I have with this update is the signet of capture, I think they sould have made a signet of superior capture and keep the signet as it worked.

Once again, I am forced to laugh as people whine and complain about the game... AND STILL FREAKING PLAY IT! If it is so bad, there is something better to do with your time. Find a new hobby.

As far as "solving" the rune and elite skill "problem" maybe use fame or rank? Every time you gain x fame or a rank you can purchase/get free/whatever a certain number of runes or an elite skill or something. That way PvPers still have to earn it, but they don't have to do the "grind."

I'm not very researched into that whole situation, but from an outside perspective, that seems like a decent way to go, short of telling all the idiots who want everything handed to them on a silver platter to go away.

PvE fanboys always say there's no grind. They haven't had to farm skill points. They haven't ran 100 farming runs to unlock runes. They haven't done the true grind required to be competitive in PvP, because they don't plan to be. If you play the game purely as a PvE game, there is pretty much no grind. When you play serious PvP, there's a lot. Stop talking of what you know nothing about.

Also, stop forcing your views on others and making unrelated comparisons. I think it's grind. I don't enjoy farming. This is a game, and I am, as opposed to what Jeff Strain said, preparing to have fun, not having it. So, some PvE fanboys think I'm lazy. This is a game and supposed to be fun, and any such statements are dumb. Also, these comments like how other games have way more grind. Do I care about other games? You don't see me playing them, do you? Just because Hitler was worse that doesn't make Pinochet a good guy. False logic, a resort of those with no real substance in their case.

A lot of people seem to have different opinions on what is playing the game. My view of playing the game is completing the cooperative missions (even if all but the last few are a snore-fest) then testing your mettle in the Tournament. Your view of playing the game is running the same zones over and over and over, until you earn an item or whatnot that suddenly makes you better than everyone else. Actually, that seems to be both sides of the argument. Ultimately, both cannot exist in the same game. One has to die, and looking at the upcoming patches it seems the "pro-farming and hundreds of hours playtime" side is going to go.

Lets hope it does, but they do it in such a way that PvE is still meaningful. I'm no carebear, but PvP isn't the be all and end all. I do know that I was expecting to be pretty much set by now for competative PvP and I'm not. And it definately isn't due to lack of playing. I'll admit it, I farm. I farm the hell out of things and have about 500 platinum on hand. But you know what... All that and I only have 8 superiors unlocked. That needs some fixing. I only farm because the current structure of the game forces me to. Now they are cracking down on this sort of 'activity' and have not yet presented a viable option for me to unlock the things I need. I hope they have a pretty big rabbit up their sleeve or a lot of people are going to be up a creek without a paddle.

This new patch seems to be such the large topic. I like it, I have liked every patch to date. I like them because they mainly mean nothing to me. The best thing yet to affect me is my Henchmen not floating off into space when they res seriously, all the other crap is well and good, but that is the single best thing they have done. I come online, I join up with friends, we run around and kill things, we see the sights, we better our tactics, we walk from one staging area to another and then we go back and do missions. Why do we do this, because its fun. I don't care about the SoC methods, I use whatever is there. I don't care about runes. If I find one thats great I use it if I can, if I can not, I give it to a friend who can, if neither of us can use it, I sell it to a vendor. I have all but team chat turned off unless we are looking for another player. It is absolutly amazing. The disatisfaction and the perception of the slight a lot of you feel is just that, your perception and your preferences. I perceive the the game as a wonderfull place to retreat to after a long day at work and thats all it has become. I couldn't care less if I can capture an elite skill before or after the boss is dead, its meaningless to me.

I think everyone who is angered or feels slighted by the updates should atleast give it a few days to a week and see what effect it will have and allow your tactics to adjust with the change and just have fun playing, that is why we all bought the game yes?

All i want is to hunt alone in pve and find the best bows that is possible. I don't care about runes, dyes, unlocking or pvp.
I just want to do my own thing (without henchmen or a team) while i hunt the few mobs that don't gang up on me and hope to get what i want.
Last night i went to one of the few areas that allow me to hunt alone and the damn mobs shattered my enchantments and killed me.
This never happened before.
I am disappointed.

I am not the only person who likes to hunt alone. I just hope a solution is found to keep the pve side enjoyable.
I know of one solution, i just don't know if anet would consider it.

Here it is in the shortened version...

Character creation screen > role playing char (for unlocking), pvp character, and customisable pve character.

The new pve character would let you have everything unlocked and let you have items transferred from the role playing character.
Anything looted in the pve character would not be allowed to be transferred to the role playing or pvp character (including gold).
The pve character would be fully customised and suit the desires of that person for his/her pve experience.

That's it, simple.

I would also like to see the enemies in GW, in smaller groups. It is possible with just a few lines of code i assume to make enemy group sizes reflective of the size of your party. So when i hunt alone, i go to attack a blessed griffon, i don't get swamped by six of them who seem to be controlled by an invisible deity. Don't take enemies out, just split the groups up.
I read somewhere that GW is for guilds and single players, can't remember where though. I just hope the pve players such as myself aren't neglected.
And yes, i fully appreciate peoples pov when it comes to pvp and i hope anet find solutions to everyones desires.

Rant over.

Ok I've gotten to the point where I am for all intents and purposes "farming for skill points" I do have a funny notion that saved me from this horrible fate...

1) I used my main to only purchase SoCs and then capture elites
2) rolled a new toon with a completely different primary and secondary
3) mish rolled that (since i didnt' need the story line anymore) to near ascension
4) came back for skill mishs.
5) Bought more SoC
6) Repeat 2-5
7) Now i have almost all the non elite skills, and because its quick as hell to roll a new toon and get them to a high level quickly (as in about 12 hours of game play i can get a toon to LA) you get most of the skills and then you just use skill points to SoC.


Doing this you actually can get all the skills and almost all the sp you need to get almost all the SoC stuff. Also once you are near ascension you can do all the secondary class quests and switch secondaries as much as you want. This will allow you to use unused sp to purchase SoC on any of your toons. From there you only need to ascend one toon if you feel so inclined or just erase them, make a PvP only toon and happy time.

Now you can of course say that was a grind. But it took an investment and its self imposed. Get over UAS, sorry it was beta, they wanna test things you think they are going to make you test new content and skills by making you work for it so only a small amount of the population actually gets to test balancing? If you answered yes then you have no clue what a beta was for. If you answered no then you recognize what the beta was for, understand why the handout was there, and understand that beta is NOT RELEASE. I could careless for pvp, or pve, I do what im in the mood for when i get time to play. The whole "PvE'ers would be mad" arguement is crap as the only time it would suck for them is when they take their ascended toon into the tomb and are fighting PvP only toons that have all skills, except they would have the same option (I'm sure Anet could allow thier toon access to all skills and runes for the arena only). Personally, I think they are minimizing grind or searching issues, but requesting that something should happen purely on the fact it was a beta feature is dumb based on the fact you are requesting something that was a beta feature. Now saying it should be allowed for PvP because it allows people their builds is a valid arguement. Making them available for pure skill vs searching, valid; levels the playing field as anyone can use them, valid. That is a valid way of making a point, no one can be pissed as it doesn't trivialize PvE accomplishments as you can't use it in PvE and people can enjoy the game play.

I just seriously hate the whole it was in beta and so it should be in release arguement, it makes no sense based on what a beta is and makes the whole arguement sound like it was written by an e-tard. Not calling anyone names, just saying it seems it invalidate the whole point of the arguement other than saying it was an enjoyable feature that beta had.

That is your problem, I told you before. Open your eyes and try to understand what other people think. Is this really so difficult?


I mean everyone talks about the PvE or the PvP-Players. Just try to open your eyes -> there are people that do both.

Please don't be so shortsighted, try to see. Don't just stick to your own view all the time. It doesn't help anybody. Anet has to make some tradeoffs, that is how things are going. You can always see the negative side, but take a look at the threads here:

It goes "ah, ****ing SoC, it needs to be easier, the grind is insane... I don't want to spend 100+ hours for one elite skill" the other side says "what? now SoC is a bunch of crap. Everyone can get an elite without an afford! **** that!" - it goes this way all the day.

If you would open your eyes you would see that the former SoC system kept many people from getting elite skill, just because it took too much time. And once you found the boss it was very hard to get the skill (and if the skill was a stance, you were out of luck). Or imagine a monk that has to heal his team - nearly impossible to get the elite... That was a serious problem for many people (not all people, but many, maybe the majority). Anet thought about it and came up with a solution. It may not be the perfect solution but it helps many players by greatly reducing the time needed to get an elite.

Some of you now say: but it doesn't take skill!
But if you look a bit closer, you see people say: argh, what about monk-bosses, we can't beat them, they heal too much, it is too difficult now.

You'll see, it doesn't take less skill, it's just different and less time consuming. If you try to understand why anet did this changes you'll realise that they are not trying to destroy the game but they try to improve the fun for most players. GW is not a game for people that play it 24/7. It's just not designed this way.

The way GW is, is great for the casual player - because a 24/7 player has just a small advantage (besides the training, but that is a different thing).

For example: I can be competitive in PvP. And why is that? Not because I spend 100+ hours farming for runes, it's because I get runes without farming. You farm very effectively by just doing quests, exploring the landscape a bit, etc.

I know, most of you won't understand my points, that's sad. But maybe some people will think about it. There is no black and white -> there are colors.

Just think about it: there are people complaining the game is too much of a grind, people that are complaining that there is no grind and it all is too easy, there are people complaining that the economy is gone all crazy and prices exploded, there are people complaining that everyone can get runes and stuff so easily, there are people complaining that it takes so much time to find a rune,... you get my point? It's just different views...

Anet is doing a great job to keep as much people as possible happy, but it is impossible to keep all happy. If you want to complain, you'll always find a reason.

Best example is the infusion run:
Formerly most people agreed that it was just nonsense to do this run so often. Now people complaining that you have to do it just once.

Doesn't that make you go WTF???
Same with UAS - it threatens the game balance and renders PvE useless. So it is just not possible to UAS. As much as some people want it: it is not gonna happen, and with an open eye it should be easy to see why.

This game is not perfect. No game is. But anet tries hard to improve it even more and so far, they're doing a good job. I bet they think long before implementing stuff like a rune-trader. I bet they considered every pro and con that would came to their mind and I bet the pros outweight the cons. Maybe they overlooked something and a rune-trader will destroy the economy. But hey, we can only get to know it if we try. Noone can be sure about it.


And one thing I learned from all the game-forums I visited: if people are complaining about the total opposite (as for example: too hard <-> too easy, too much grind <-> too few grind) then I know: the game is balanced right.

i enjoy games that are difficult. i dont mind if it takes me a year to get to lvl 20.
infuse run 5x means the witch only has time to do 1 piece.
it only makes ur amor more valuable.

its too easy to make it to level 20 now.

400 to 4k for galrath. thats huge. they should have more save points in the mid of long quests, so u dont have to go back to the beginning. i think 1000xp is appropriate for this quest. but galrath & his minions r weak compared to the monsters getting to him. makes it anti-climatic.

the more grind the better! i feel this game is geared towards 12yr olds. & as for 25+ with jobs & families, u know that u dont achieve greatness by it being handed to you. u kno that sometimes it takes a long time to get the max level, the uber hero.

i dont want to see a lot of lvl 20s with end equipment. if u see a godly hero, u say Wow, where did u get that armor...

u should of made the end armor say 55 for a warior & 60 for the 15k one.

its silly to capture skills off a dead boss.

one thing i did like was when my lvl 20 w/mo went back to old anscalon for the something & tried to run/sprint through, my henchmen died & i almost died due to cripple, grawl, thorn devils..., i was tracked by 10 monsters, i had to stop & fight them lol.

I would say ANet is a pretty great dev house, but I would give the "most responsive" award to Valve. They gave us HL2: DM based solely on customer demand (which was basically a new game in and of itself). They also release 2 maps for CS:S every month or so. And whenever there's a legit complaint (not the hitbox problem) they patch it.

Hmm... Seems that the origional intent of this thread has been completely strayed away from.

Next time I'll just save time and start a thread about grind and UAS. It seems more complex subject matter is not on the menu.

I agree - that no matter what ANet does, there will always be some complainers. I'm happy with the update - personally, I am hoping the addition of traders are a temporary fix and that an Auction House is implemented, but that's just me. Or perhaps, the traders can stay and sell for a certain fixed priced (only so many in stock a day), while the AH fluctuates to the needs of other players.

Anyway - I remember how other games were. There is serious grind in other MMORPGs, and I'm sure many GW players have experienced this. The amount of time it takes to get from Level 1 to Level 5 -- most of it through endless killing of the same weak mobs, rather than doing quests that reward you with experience, skills, and gold/items. Or, as you said, hours of crafting just to make a belt-buckle lol. I knew someone in FFXI who spent literally about a million or so game currency and endless hours to get their leather crafting up, to make a single piece of armor (ranked high around level 90 crafting) - because it cost so much to buy in the auction house, and he'd rather make them himself & sell the extras. And in FFXI, no matter how good your reputation was as whatever job, spending anywhere between one hour and eight hours sitting around, waiting for a party to form and for you to get invited, once you hit the high levels. And that's what the games were about -- LEVELING, getting higher and higher in level each day, rejoicing because you finally, after so many hours, had 900 XP until your next level - just to reach the next level and find you needed 20,000 xp until the next one -- and what for, to reach the level cap? And then what?

In all my time of playing GW (February BETA through now), I haven't complained once about grind. Sure, there was the challenge of capturing elite skills, and unlocking skills one by one - but there has to be some challenge to this game, and some sense of reality. I'd be kind of bummed out if I started a level 1 character to find that every weapon, every armor, every skill, and every rune was already available to me. What incentive is there for my character to go so far in the game? Unlocking these things are rewards.

With that said, I know this game needs to cater to PvP and to PvE -- currently, it seems that PvE are being rewarded in PvP and in PvE -- we get fun drunken ale, unlocked skills & runes for our PvP characters, cinematics and storyline.. rather than continue making changes to PvE, why not reward PvP for doing what they do? Sure, they receive a Sigil when they hold the HoH, which is good for a Guild Hall and access to a new level of PvP (guild vs guild) -- but as I think others have probably suggested before; how about rewarding PvP players with skills - that way, they can spend their x amount of hours devoted to PvP, rather than "grinding" through PvE. Currently, PvE players aren't "forced" to play PvP (except once, when they enter Academy, and it only lasts like 10 seconds lol) -- and I like that. They are allowed a taste of it if they choose to, with entrances to Arenas located in major cities. PvE should equally be an option to PvP players, and they should be allowed their own set of rewards.

I'd hate to see PvE become "too easy" for players. I don't play the game hardcore all day & all night, but I was quite happy with the game as it was already. Even my younger sister (she's 12), who never really plays video games at all (except Pokemon on her GBA ^_^), and never played MMORPGs (I let her play on my FFXI level 1 before, and she said it was "too hard") -- enjoys this game. She picked up her own copy, we got her a better videocard, and she's currently at the Ring of Fire mission on her first character. The only thing I've ever heard her complain about is the trade system, because she doesn't get to spend hours on the game spamming "WTS WTS WTS", which is a good thing, because it's boring to do anyway. The game was enough challenge to her to keep her interested in playing, without allowing her to finish the game in a day, and without a need to complain. I honestly hope ANet doesn't decide to just hand everything to us. During the BETA, all I did was PvP because everything was available - with that said, everything was the same, everyday. Now, when I go make my PvP character, I'm actually amazed at how much I've managed to unlock, and I'm quite proud of my in-game accomplishments. Even now, I get excited when my screen lights up with "xxxxxx unlocked!".

I'm glad ANet is listening to us, and that they get right to work to improving the game with the many suggestions. They said minimal grind, so that's the key word there -- don't make the game grindless. Here are some excerpts from their official website, which hopefully will remind all players what this game was originally intended to be:

I'm very happy with the game right now as it is, and how it was in the past. I think the Signet of Capture might need a little work still, to please everybody.. I haven't tried it out myself yet under this new system, so I'm not sure if it works the old way AND the new way (what if you can't kill the boss? does that mean, you'll never be able to capture the skill?).

The game definitely needs a better trade system implemented as well -- the traders are a temporary fix. I think players will contiune to sell to other players without the assistance of a trader, because that NPC wants to buy my runes for the low price of 29 gold and sell them for 300. /fistshake

And last, but not least, they need to focus on rewarding PvP characters without forcing them to play through the entire PvE game, because of this excerpt from their official site:

I know, it says "leveling up your character" -- which is true, because PvP characters are already created at level 20, and technically are ascended because they're near the Dragon's Lair. However, PvP characters come with nothing. A few weapons to choose from, no runes, and no skills if you decide to create a custom character, rather than a pre-made build.

A few suggestions, which I should probably post in a new thread but will just post here since I am on the topic:
- Allow all PvP characters instant access to a few beginner skills (the ones which are given to PvE characters in Pre-Seared Ascalon). This includes Resurrection Signet.
- Reward PvP characters with skills:
a) Include a Skill Trainer with ALL SKILLS available for purchase, except Elite Skills. Give new PvP players n amount of skill points, so they may purchase a few already - then, as they gain exp through PvP, they will earn skill points to purchase more skills.
b) Allow Elite Skills to be rewarded after.. something. I'm not sure what exactly, maybe after winning n amount of rounds in tombs, or after winning a round of the 6-team map.. whatever, this can be up for debate or up to the devs to decide.
c) Allow Runes to be rewarded for something. Maybe include a random-spawning chest in one of the big maps that reveals, on most occasions, gold, but every now and then, a Rune for unlocking.

These are off the top of my head, so can be debated, torn apart, whatever - I just feel that PvP shouldn't be forced to complete the PvE part of the game in order to gain all their skills. I'm an Ascended E/Me, and I've beat the last mission, and even now I haven't earned EVERY Elementalist and Mesmer skill available yet - I don't have the skill points for them at the moment. If, after three weeks, I've only managed to unlock SOME of the E/Me skills (and note, barely any of the skills for the other classes), how am I supposed to just jump into my PvP character? What if I want to PvP as a Ranger? I'll have, maybe one or two skills, from the Pre-Seared Ascalon quest, but nothing else.

Eh - well this post is long. I'll leave it for now, but I'd like to see what others think.

Thank you ANet for always listening to what the community needs and looking out for our best interests. And thanks for guaranteeing streaming new content that doesn't require hours of downtime. ^_________^

Oi, I wrote an essay, lol.

Tactical-Dillusions, that's the point. This game is not meant for one to solo. It's a team-effort type. Hence, ArenaNet is trying to take out most of the 'grind' from the game.

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There must be dozens of threads related to the recent patch. All I can say is that it's all perspective. Half of us love the game as it is, others see it as a becoming failure.

UAS would be better than the current system. My only concern is, the current system is flawed, and simply adding UAS would allow them to get away with not fixing it.

Just rolling the game back to where it was at the last beta without reenabling UAS would fix most of the problems. It was what happened between the last beta and release that seriously mucked things up. When I got to Ascalon City and saw the Skill Trader didn't have any skills to buy, I got this sinking feeling that I hoped would prove unfounded, that skill quests would make up the difference, but in fact that sinking feeling was quite well grounded in reality.

The skill system in this game hit its height on the beta weekend they eliminated the exotic charms trader and put every skill in the hands of some skill trainer in some outpost this side of Sanctum Cay. At that time, you had choices, lots of them. You could make whatever character you wanted, and actually play it in PvE through many missions. You could use Hundred Blades when mobbed by Charr, you could Echo a skill while fighting Maguuma Spiders, etc. You got fun toys and you could play with them.

Now, of course, your skill choices are extremely limited until you're so far into the game that, once you get the cool toys, playtime is over. A skill that you can't get until the very last mission in the game might as well not exist for PvE purposes. For all the complaints PvP-only fans make, it's really the PvE crowd that got screwed the most by the changes between BWE6 and release. Half the cool toys are hidden away until it's too late to play with them. This game is still a fun game, but it isn't half as fun as it used to be.

It wouldn't be so frustrating if it weren't for the fact that they actually had it right at one point. There was a time when I went out of my way to show the game to friends, rather than not even bringing the subject up unless they ask about it. I have several friends who would have loved to play the game that we played during beta, but I can't honestly recommend it to them now -- it's not as easy to pick up and play, it's not as addictive, it's not as creative, and just plain not as fun as it was then. They like to tinker, but the kind of tinkering you could do with characters then is no longer an option now. By the time you have the ability, there's no point, the game's over (from a PvE'ers perspective). I ought to finish getting my skills by the time I'm halfway through the game, otherwise, when am I going to get to use them?

Ascension should be the capstone for my character, and then I should actually have some time to play with my now completed build. But I can't. I don't even use character builders anymore. Too frustrating. What's the point of making a build only to discover there's no point to it, that once I have all the skills I need for it, the game will be pretty much over. It might have been fun to actually play through the game with that build, but that's not an option, because you have to play through almost the entire game before you can finish making it.

ArenaNet is making some effort to correct their mistakes, but it's kinda hard to say they're doing a great job when you remember so well the fun game you used to be able to play in beta, and notice you really can't play that game anymore. While you're actually playing the game, all the fun options are gone. PvE was trashed by those changes, the fun toys are now PvP-only.

Well, I'm kind of glad that the AWESOMEOMGCANYOUBELIEVEHOWGREATTHISIS skills are available later in the game. Maybe it's not best that they're at the END of the game, but definitely good they are available later. Every hero, whether it be in a game, in a movie, or in real life, always started out somewhat weak, and eventually got better and better through learning more skills and more experience out in the field.

Nicely, eloquently put, as usual

I couldn't agree more. I also have been guilty of being part of those "minority screams". I learned from it. I love this game. I am not into the politics of it anymore. It's a game I love. End of story.