I'd pay for an expanded account.

Zoolooman

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2005

Ectos And Shards

I'd pay five bucks for a triple-sized storage vault and another three character slots on my account. I'm tired of having to delete old characters when I want to try a different primary profession, and I want a spare slot for a PvP character at all times. :/

Simply put:

I pay five bucks to A.net.

They make my single account less restrictive by adding three character slots and a larger storage vault.

Deal?

Anarchist_Monk

Anarchist_Monk

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2005

Remnants of Ascalon

Mo/R

I agree with you on the fact about having more characters and a larger storage vault, but ANet's whole big thing about Guild Wars is the fact its free. I don't think they would want to go and change that being as that has been their big atraction since the betas. Going back on this, I believe they might not get a big positive responce from it.

Magus

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2005

I do not agree with increased storage space (it would only lead to hoarding and all of the crap associated with it), but increased character slots would definitely be nice. Arenanet kept these things low for a reason.

However, characters themselves are pack mules, but I think this could be balanced by making it so that you cannot purchase more character slots unless you beat the game (or reach some other benchmark in-game such as ascension) with all but one of your currently available slots, this would make it more difficult for farmers to simply buy 10 characters to store all of their loot, but would also leave open a free slot for a PvP character at all times. As for the cost of an extra character slot, I'd be willing to pay $5 for each character slot, but that's really up to Arenanet to decide, if they implement this at all.

Zoolooman

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2005

Ectos And Shards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anarchist_Monk
I agree with you on the fact about having more characters and a larger storage vault, but ANet's whole big thing about Guild Wars is the fact its free. I don't think they would want to go and change that being as that has been their big atraction since the betas. Going back on this, I believe they might not get a big positive responce from it.
I'm not suggesting a monthly payment. I initially paid fifty bucks for permanent access to the game's content. Now I want to pay another five for permanent access to three more character slots and a larger vault.

Pretty simple in concept, not at all mandatory, not much of an advantage, and yet very useful for people who play often.

Jigs

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

Mission Viejo, Ca, USA

kNiGhTmArE LEGion

W/R

i agree w/ the larger storage vault. like mentioned earlier, if you want to create another character w/ different profession, they have different items for armor and weapons. My storage vault is not even enough for my items. i have about 8 runes in there and armor materials and dyes crowding my vault. i am saving my runes and dyes for my final armor so i cant use them now. i know that we have bags that can hold like more than 40 items there are just somethings that you cannot let go coz they still have uses to you.

Xinaya

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2005

Republic of Korea

Bloodbane Council

W/R

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoolooman
I'm not suggesting a monthly payment. I initially paid fifty bucks for permanent access to the game's content. Now I want to pay another five for permanent access to three more character slots and a larger vault.
If part of the game content was 4 characters for 50 bucks, how do you think $5 justifies another 3? If you really want more characters and storage, throw down for the extra account.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoolooman
Pretty simple in concept, not at all mandatory, not much of an advantage, and yet very useful for people who play often.
Very easy to horde and otherwise screw up the economy, too. $5 is a tiny price to pay in order to powerplay. If people really have the time to play that much, they should have to pay more than the average joe to even the playing field a little. After all... My average cost of lunch per day is 5 bucks. If I could pay a one-time fee and get lunch everyday forever, I think the food industry would go bankrupt. Anet's gotta get their money somehow. This game is free to keep on playing, so you won't go broke buying a second account.

It may be possible that you can get "1" extra character in the next chapter. And it expands as it goes... since you have to pay for the expansions anyway.

theclam

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

Quote:
If part of the game content was 4 characters for 50 bucks, how do you think $5 justifies another 3? If you really want more characters and storage, throw down for the extra account.
The $50 is for several dozen mission, several dozen explorable areas, several hundred skills, several hundred quests, 6 classes, and all the programming that ties that content together. It doesn't cost ArenaNet $50/person to double the amount of characters that an account can have. I doubt it even costs them $1/person.

Quote:
Very easy to horde and otherwise screw up the economy, too. $5 is a tiny price to pay in order to powerplay. If people really have the time to play that much, they should have to pay more than the average joe to even the playing field a little. After all... My average cost of lunch per day is 5 bucks. If I could pay a one-time fee and get lunch everyday forever, I think the food industry would go bankrupt. Anet's gotta get their money somehow. This game is free to keep on playing, so you won't go broke buying a second account.
That's a bad analogy. If you already get a medium sized lunch forever for $50, it's like paying $5 to get your fries supersized forever. Food costs a lot of money to make, whereas additional characters cost very little.

Powerplayers wouldn't even get an advantage over other players if this was put in. Their characters would be not one bit stronger. The game becomes not one bit less fun for casual gamers, but it removes a major annoyance for people who play a lot, or like to use many different characters.

It won't screw up the economy significantly, since 3 more characters would only add 300 plat per account. Compared to the 1000 plat that your storage vault holds, that's very little. Because of NPC Traders, Crafters, and Collectors, no items can get too expensive, except for weapons, shields, and foci. Everything else can be bought easily. Because of the 100 plat limit per character, nothing can ever be worth more than 100 plat. In addition, the PvP character dynamic means that once someone unlocks a rune in PvE, their account gets that rune for free, permanently. Demand will go down, supply will go up, so even if the amount of money in the marketplace is high, inflation won't be too bad.

I don't see any reason that the limit is only 4 characters.

Magus

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2005

I get your point, but actually, extra characters will still mess up the economy. People, namely farmers hoard all sorts of things. We're lucky that godly equipment is relatively cheap now, since farmers usually don't have a means to hoard them, meaning that they have to sell them quickly. Aside from the gold storage of 100 platinum, people can hold well more in items. I've known someone who's had about 60 celestial sigils at one time. A character can hold 45 items, and a sigil sells for about 75K, so that's 45*75+100=3475 plat per character.

Of course, I was using the worst case scenario there, and there's no way that any more than a handful of people are going to hoard that much, but I was just trying to point out that people can hoard much more than 100 plat in the value of items. With no real limit on the amount of items someone can hold, people have no desire to quickly sell their items and it becomes much easier for select people to monopolize items.

Zoolooman

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2005

Ectos And Shards

I don't think a handful of hoarders will gain that much power from a few more character slots. I also think that the benefits--money for A.net and characters for me--will easily outweigh the small, potential economic problems.

As for buying a second account: what's the point? Nothing I've unlocked here will help me there. I'd rather pay to expand this account so that my progress continues to accumulate as I play.

Anarchist_Monk

Anarchist_Monk

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2005

Remnants of Ascalon

Mo/R

I don't see where you get those numbers. You are using 45 as the amount of items one can hold, but then in the equation you use it as 45,000 since the end result is plat. And as far as I know celestial sigils are not stackable, so you could only hold 45 of them. I may be wrong about that though. I never had the urge to buy and hord sigils like crazy.

Magus

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2005

About not many farmers abusing the extra slots, I hope that's true, but Arenanet apparently doesn't think so (the Wednesday update with nerfing drops was a direct response to reduce the farming) and they have better knowledge of the data, such as where people go, how many monsters are killed, etc.

The 45 is the amount of item slots someone has (and the last time I checked, sigils do not stack), and the 75 is the cost per sigil (this may be a bit too low or high) and the +100 is because a character can hold 100 platinum on them in raw form. So it's about 3,475 platinum per character or 3,475,000 gold. This doesn't really have much meaning though, as most players won't have nearly that much, but I was just demonstrating how much abuse can come out of it.

I'm not saying more character slots should not be added at all, I just think that there should be some type of restraint over how many people can get at one time to reduce this kind of hoarding.

RTSFirebat

RTSFirebat

The Humanoid Typhoon

Join Date: May 2005

UK

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

R/

Ok not to be negative about this idea but:

$5 would not cut it... this game requires servers and bandwidth... servers have to be keep up and running and cost loads. Bandwidth is not unlimited and again requires more money.

If A.net each all users who paid $5 for additional character and vault space it would require more storage space being used up on the servers. Simply put a on off payment of $5 most likely would not cut it.

However you will find that a.net has already estimated costs till the next expansion pack is released... so what I'm saying is the $50 or in my case $20 I paided for the game (Yes brand new!) will cover the costs of the game for some time.

So really there more to it then just paying and getting more space... there are long term costs to consider as well.

If you lacking space delete the character you use the least and try another one.

Zoolooman

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2005

Ectos And Shards

It would cut it.

The fifty dollars I paid mostly covered their initial investment in coding, design, hardware, and art. It is highly unlikely that twenty dollars of that was set aside to pay for my storage costs on the A.net servers. It is more likely that two or three dollars was set aside.

And in any case, storage is a one-time cost. It's very unlikely that three more characters and a larger vault would require more than a few megabytes of their disk space. Currently you can buy raided SCSI storage at three to ten dollars a GIGABYTE. Do you really think that they'd lose money if they stored a few more megs of data for five dollars?

I don't want to delete my characters. I want to pay for more character space for my account; not just in general, because I could buy another copy if I wanted more space; no, I want to expand my account.

RTSFirebat

RTSFirebat

The Humanoid Typhoon

Join Date: May 2005

UK

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

R/

Maybe it will cut it... more likely it won't.

It sounds simple on paper, but having worked for a storage solutions company in the past I can say its really not that simple.

Do you really believe that companies just install things and away they go? If you do then your wrong.

The implementation of any new items to a existing networked system such as A.net would require planning, implementation, testing, evaulation to name a few things.

These things require people to handle them, those people require payment, can you see the cost building up yet?

Upgrading storage would require server down time as well... and to make matters even more interesting maybe A.net has good reasons to why it doesn't want players to have more access to storage space.

Really at the end of the day since none of us here work for A.net we really cannot comment on their business and future plans for server + storage space.

Again since we don't work for them, no one knows how much each character in a user's account takes up... nor do we have any understanding of what load it would put on the servers processors.

Yes storage is cheap and general easy to implement on small scale... but Guild Wars has a massive number of players across the world and its really not a simply matter of adding another harddisk in.

I can understand why you are annoyed... but not everyone has the time to play 4 full characters... where do you find the time to? Also I can understand you feel hard done by, but since you getting so much for a one off payment of $50 (£25) I fail to see how you can still be complaining?

World of Warcraft allows many characters over many servers... however they charge for that... again storage space is not free... and it not that easy to implement on large scale.

Deagol

Deagol

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Apr 2005

Denmark

I think that if you entered another retail game key to your account, you should get 4 aditional character slots and double the vault storage.

The advantage over opening two seperate accounts would be that you would only have to buy one expansion key to give all 8 characters access to the next chapter.

The disadvantage would be that could only be member of one guild, and you would not be able to play on two computers simultaniously.

RTSFirebat

RTSFirebat

The Humanoid Typhoon

Join Date: May 2005

UK

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deagol
I think that if you entered another retail game key to your account, you should get 4 aditional character slots and double the vault storage.

The advantage over opening two seperate accounts would be that you would only have to buy one expansion key to give all 8 characters access to the next chapter.

The disadvantage would be that could only be member of one guild, and you would not be able to play on two computers simultaniously.
With that idea it would make more sense just to play two different accounts.... why combine them?

Vangor

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2005

He did say, "The Advantage over opening" right between those two big opening and closing sentences Firebat, the fact that you'd only have to purchase one expansion slot, so, if you are fine with a single guild, which I'd guess most are, and don't possess another computer or have no one playing who may want to jump onto your character, which seems rather pointless since it isn't as though you are raiding with stringent class demands, then combine em.

Personally, I would like to see an expansion of three slots, six for all primaries, one for PvP remakes, and the information for most characters is actually very small, as are items themselves, it costs them more to constantly open and close instances probably, nevermind maintain them, than it would to do such things. As for storage space, it is merely convenient to be able to have supplies tucked away, and be able to transfer without having to actually move items back and forth.

This thought of hoarding is pointless, most of us who want it don't plan to, and besides, if you are truly to do this, create three characters, give them bags and holding, and let them keep it on them, the problem is that the storage space itself is limited to all four characters, which can make it convenient, but, having to stock all crafting materials, especially lower and high end ones, with various runes you may wish to later apply, a few upgrades, and then dyes, you may have space for two rare items, and I wouldn't drop them to pick up a random white while adventuring anyway, especially when it was a personallized instance drop and realistically has no highest tier value, I've had a low req highest damage axe since before Henge, and it isn't as though anyone is selling armor...

Just can't believe I'd even have to pay for it, would seem a great gesture to give it for free, though I can say, I would pay for it.

Diplo

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2005

UK

N/W

Quote:
Originally Posted by RTSFirebat
$5 would not cut it... this game requires servers and bandwidth... servers have to be keep up and running and cost loads. Bandwidth is not unlimited and again requires more money.
As you can only use one active character at a time then your point about bandwidth is redundant. Being able to create a thousand characters would not use any more bandwidth than being able to create one character, as you can only play with one character at once.
Quote:
If A.net each all users who paid $5 for additional character and vault space it would require more storage space being used up on the servers. Simply put a on off payment of $5 most likely would not cut it.
Each item wouldn't take more than a few bytes of data - probably no more than 8 bytes per item. This could probably be reduced even more by compression. Even a tiny hard-disk could hold a few million items. In otherwords, the disk space would be virtually negligible. If you think $5 is expensive for 1Kb of disk space then, well, you don't really understand much about how data is stored

BrokenSymmetry

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

I would pay for extra characters, simply because I like to try out many different classes and playing styles, and I get too attached to my characters to delete them...

RTSFirebat

RTSFirebat

The Humanoid Typhoon

Join Date: May 2005

UK

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diplo
As you can only use one active character at a time then your point about bandwidth is redundant. Being able to create a thousand characters would not use any more bandwidth than being able to create one character, as you can only play with one character at once.
Each item wouldn't take more than a few bytes of data - probably no more than 8 bytes per item. This could probably be reduced even more by compression. Even a tiny hard-disk could hold a few million items. In otherwords, the disk space would be virtually negligible. If you think $5 is expensive for 1Kb of disk space then, well, you don't really understand much about how data is stored
Read my above post, the long one: As quoted:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RTSFirebat
Maybe it will cut it... more likely it won't.

It sounds simple on paper, but having worked for a storage solutions company in the past I can say its really not that simple.

Do you really believe that companies just install things and away they go? If you do then your wrong.

The implementation of any new items to a existing networked system such as A.net would require planning, implementation, testing, evaulation to name a few things.

These things require people to handle them, those people require payment, can you see the cost building up yet?

Upgrading storage would require server down time as well... and to make matters even more interesting maybe A.net has good reasons to why it doesn't want players to have more access to storage space.
As I'ved stated many times before in other threads... since NONE of us here work for A.net... we cannot really comment on their costs, data storage methods, file sizes or bandwidth costs.

But I do know for a fact (Having worked in IT for a few years), its not as cheap as one would make it out to be.

And again A.net has its reasons (Private ones) for not giving people more space...

Diplo

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2005

UK

N/W

Quote:
Originally Posted by RTSFirebat
But I do know for a fact (Having worked in IT for a few years), its not as cheap as one would make it out to be.
Diskspace is dirt cheap. I work as a programmer and there is no way on earth people as smart as ANet would not be able to store an item in a few bytes. All you need to is store an items ID in their database which points to the item and the ID of it's owner and the quantity. Your basically storing a pointer to an item, not the item itself. I work as a programmer myself and this would be trivial. Disk space is not an issue.
Quote:
And again A.net has its reasons (Private ones) for not giving people more space...
I totally understand the reasoning for not allowing some people to have more storage space than others - people should not be encouraged to hoard items. I agree. However, let that be the stated reason for why it shouldn't happen, not fallacious arguments about bandwidth or disk-space that have no technical basis.

RTSFirebat

RTSFirebat

The Humanoid Typhoon

Join Date: May 2005

UK

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

R/

You know.. your right, it costs only £1 to run a multi-user database/ storage solution for a mass number of users. [/Sarcasm]

Ba Ne

Ba Ne

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2005

Michigan

W/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jigs
... My storage vault is not even enough for my items. i have about 8 runes in there and armor materials and dyes crowding my vault. i am saving my runes and dyes for my final armor so i cant use them now. ...
Same here. A bunch of crafting materials, a couple of slots for dye and a few more for the runes and upgrade components I've found so far (and am saving for later) and my storage was full. I ended up taking a bunch of the materials I may have used for another character to the material trader to free up space.

I'd pay the Xunlei (sp?) Agents for a larger storage vault. I might even pay $5 or whatever to ANet for a large storage vault access key or something.

Schorny

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2005

If I just want more storage I can easily buy a new account. It will take me maybe a weekend to bring all four chars to lions arch - there is no need to bring them further.

I can pack all 4 chars full of stuff and trade with them by using my old and new account at the same time. No problem for me.

But more chars per account would be a very little benefit over 2 accounts, because only the trading will get a little easier.

For normal people like me, more slots would mean a lot, for people who just want more storage it hardly doesn't matter if they need to use 2 accounts or one.

I'd be happy to pay even 10 bucks per new char. Just 2 more would be great for.

Diplo

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2005

UK

N/W

Quote:
Originally Posted by RTSFirebat
You know.. your right, it costs only £1 to run a multi-user database/ storage solution for a mass number of users.[/Sarcasm]
The original poster was suggesting paying $5 for what amounts to a few extra bytes of disk-space. That kind of price-per-byte ratio would buy you a lot of mirrored SCSI raid arrays with UPS backup. When Google can give way over 2GB of storage with a mail account then I think a few bytes for $5 is a rather good markup, don't you?

cc.pyro

cc.pyro

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2005

Mayland

The Cheverly Crew

W/Mo

Not to say that Anet is out only to make money and nothing else, but you must realize that there is a reason you only have 4 spaces for characters. Simply put they want you to pay for more. Why would they let you pay 5$ for four more when they know that there are people out there that are willing to pay or already have paid 50$ for 4 more? So if one guy does it, that would be the same as 10 people doing it at 5$. There is no logical reason for them to sell you extra stoarge space for anything less than a new copy. Also the next expansion will probably be giving you 4 slots, and of course they know that everyone wants new content and slots and are willing to pay 50$ for it. So to conclude, in order to make money, Anet will not sell you anything for less than 50$, unless of course the expansions are less than that or the game is on sale.

Epinephrine

Epinephrine

Master of Beasts

Join Date: Mar 2005

Ottawa, Canada

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

I have no problem buying an expansion for character slots if reasonably priced - I just want them to be in on my unlocked skills, so that PvPers I make with them have access to my stuff. That's the problem with getting a second account, I don't want to unlock my runes AGAIN on another account.

Xinaya

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2005

Republic of Korea

Bloodbane Council

W/R

Quote:
Originally Posted by cc.pyro
Not to say that Anet is out only to make money and nothing else, but you must realize that there is a reason you only have 4 spaces for characters. Simply put they want you to pay for more. Why would they let you pay 5$ for four more when they know that there are people out there that are willing to pay or already have paid 50$ for 4 more? So if one guy does it, that would be the same as 10 people doing it at 5$. There is no logical reason for them to sell you extra stoarge space for anything less than a new copy. Also the next expansion will probably be giving you 4 slots, and of course they know that everyone wants new content and slots and are willing to pay 50$ for it. So to conclude, in order to make money, Anet will not sell you anything for less than 50$, unless of course the expansions are less than that or the game is on sale.
THANK YOU! I was just about to post the very same thing before I turned the page and discovered someone else was intelligent enough to figure it out themselves. Bravo.

ArenaNet is a BUSINESS. It's an amazing and wonderful thing that they don't charge us a monthly fee, but business is business, and no one provides ANYTHING at cost. So what's all this nonsense about how much bandwidth and diskspace costs? That's not the point. The point is, no one is providing us cutting-edge gaming as a charity. It's a luxury, and someone has to make money for it.

They also have to keep in mind balance for all the gamers.. as someone else with high functioning gray matter has mentioned... ArenaNet knows better than we do. There's a reason for it. Really. We just might not always know exactly what it is.

Games aren't free. Content isn't free. Companies want your money. It's not evil or unfair... That's their absolute right. Cheers.

Epinephrine

Epinephrine

Master of Beasts

Join Date: Mar 2005

Ottawa, Canada

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xinaya
Games aren't free. Content isn't free. Companies want your money. It's not evil or unfair... That's their absolute right. Cheers.
People are offering that they will pay for more slots. Those slots do not require additional art, world design, nor do they tax the system, as the same number of players will likely be on at any time, it just means I don't need to delete characters as often. Some money would be spent by ANet in setting up the system to add characters into an account, and some money for storage costs associated. Once that figure is known, triple it and charge for the spots - that's the way a business works - find something people will pay for, produce it at a low cost, charge them more to make a profit. I am pretty sure that they will come out with more slots, as you said, they are a business. I won't buy a second copy, as that involved unlocking all the skills again. I would pay a fraction of the costs, yet to be determined, to gain some more PvE characters on my account. Thus since there are probably many like myself out there, there is probably enough interest/money to justify doing this and earning a nice bit of extra cash for some probably simple work.

They are a business after all.

Dreamsmith

Dreamsmith

Elite Guru

Join Date: Feb 2005

Minnesota

Beguine Guild [BGN]

Right now, you can get four more characters for $40-50, just by buying a new copy of the game and starting a new account. The problem is, your new characters won't be in your guild, won't be able to access the shared vault, etc.

If nothing else, I'd like to see the option of being able to add a second retail key to my existing account (just like I was able to add two pre-order keys), and get four more slots on the same account, rather than having to open a second account for the additional slots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RTSFirebat
You know.. your right, it costs only £1 to run a multi-user database/ storage solution for a mass number of users. [/Sarcasm]
No, but if you already have such a system in place, if you charged even that much for an additional character slot, most of it would be pure profit. Time on the CPU, network bandwidth, and salaries of the support staff are all several orders of magnitude more expensive than storage space.

Deathlord

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

PVP Ranger: Does Stuff Fast

XXX

W/Mo

Five bucks is HARDLY something they'd sell for you for that much stuff. Let's put it this way, FOUR character slots and ONE storage is uh $50!. Let's assume each storage and character slot is $10. How about you pay them $30 for the character slots and another $30 for the storage. Don't be so cheap, if you're desperately in need to hold stuff then you either need to sell or get a mule. I stuck my ranger with all 45 spaces with mule junk, I either sold them to merchant or rune trader. Face it, half the runes are useless, that should help your storage out.

Phaedrus

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diplo
Diskspace is dirt cheap. I work as a programmer and there is no way on earth people as smart as ANet would not be able to store an item in a few bytes. All you need to is store an items ID in their database which points to the item and the ID of it's owner and the quantity. Your basically storing a pointer to an item, not the item itself. I work as a programmer myself and this would be trivial. Disk space is not an issue.
Diskspace is dirt cheap. Re-scaling an infrastructure after having already estimated and projected playerbase growth through trending and having to do this all over is not. Having to put in redundancy to protect the data is not cheap. Having to regression test new hardware and software against the current infrastructure is not. Having to take down servers while these things get implemented (however quickly or efficiently, given they will have had many not-cheap test runs to ensure success) is not.

I've been a programmer too, but I've also had to implement my work. The time and money investments are very considerable, even for adding something as simple as a single disk drive, let alone farms of disk arrays.

[ ]

Zoolooman

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2005

Ectos And Shards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathlord
Five bucks is HARDLY something they'd sell for you for that much stuff. Let's put it this way, FOUR character slots and ONE storage is uh $50!.
Why do people continue to assert that I paid fifty dollars for the character slots?

That fifty dollars was paid to cover their initial multimillion-dollar investment in art, coding, hardware, and design. It was paid to give me a license and access to that content. Only a fraction of that cost paid for storage--only a fraction was paid for the slots and vault--and that is the ONLY thing I want to buy from them. They won't ever get a second account out of me because I would only get a small amount of use from it.

I won't redundantly pay for design costs. But I will pay, even at a reasonable profit, for a little more of their diskspace.

Also, for those claiming that A.net will have difficulties adding space: their system is surely scalable, considering that they'd otherwise have a terrible disaster on their hands when users begin to push their current storage limits.

Zoolooman

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2005

Ectos And Shards

Quote:
Originally Posted by cc.pyro
Not to say that Anet is out only to make money and nothing else, but you must realize that there is a reason you only have 4 spaces for characters. Simply put they want you to pay for more. Why would they let you pay 5$ for four more when they know that there are people out there that are willing to pay or already have paid 50$ for 4 more? So if one guy does it, that would be the same as 10 people doing it at 5$. There is no logical reason for them to sell you extra stoarge space for anything less than a new copy. Also the next expansion will probably be giving you 4 slots, and of course they know that everyone wants new content and slots and are willing to pay 50$ for it. So to conclude, in order to make money, Anet will not sell you anything for less than 50$, unless of course the expansions are less than that or the game is on sale.
While the market supports a small number of double or triple account purchases, the costs scare away a large portion of the user base. The benefits are too small and the prices are too high. On the other hand, many people would happily purchase a low-cost solution with good benefits. Demand exists for extra character slots at a reasonable price; comparitively very little demand exists for buying second accounts.

In order to make money, they want to find the highest price at which the product will sell the most. The optimal solution is not the full-game price, but the highest profit determined by price times purchases.

For example, you can purchase extra characters in FFXI for one dollar a slot. This is an optimal design; lots of people will pay a dollar but almost none will buy a second copy of the game. Of course FFXI is a pay-to-play game, and paying one dollar would be insufficient for a game like Guild Wars; but to imagine that the increase in cost would be fifty-fold makes me think that you're finding excuses to cling to the game's current design, and not seriously considering what I and others want to buy and how much we're willing to pay for it.

Dreamsmith

Dreamsmith

Elite Guru

Join Date: Feb 2005

Minnesota

Beguine Guild [BGN]

Phaedrus: "Cheap" is a relative term. Compared to the other costs involved in running an MMORPG, everything you mentioned is relatively cheap.

Creston

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by RTSFirebat
If A.net each all users who paid $5 for additional character and vault space it would require more storage space being used up on the servers. Simply put a on off payment of $5 most likely would not cut it.
Not to be rude, but adding a number of characters wouldn't cost drek.
The database that controls all the characters works on a number of concurrent connections. Extra characters would be tied into your account, and it's your ACCOUNT that's connected to the database, so there would be no expanded capacity needed there.

The only thing that would be needed is extra disk space to store all the data. How much space does a character take up, say 100K (which is a HUGE amount of data for characters, believe me. Look at, for example, Baldur's Gate 2 or NWN and the size of their characters, and it's all around 30K or so). So every 3 characters takes up 300K of space.
Say all the 1 million players want this, they need 1 million times 300K of storage space extra, which is 300 gigs of storage space. The total cost of that storage space is about 300 dollars, say times 5 if they have it in a RAID 5, is 1500 dollars.
Oh no, that five dollars per customer really isn't going to cut it.

Seriously, if they do this because they want to stop hording etc, I can understand that, although I REALLY want more characters. I've already deleted two whom I had played for about 30+ hours, because I'm out of space.

But the cost behind it is miniscule, really. 5 dollars per account would be a 4.98 dollar profit for them.

Creston

JoDiamonds

JoDiamonds

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

New England

$5 isn't worth the trouble of processing the order. I'm serious. Someone has to set up the system for players to purchase this, and weigh the various options they should offer (because there are obviously many ways they could go with this), etc. Also, comparing to Google isn't reasonable. Not only is GuildWars not even remotely on the scale of Google (which affects costs in about a billion ways), do you want advertisements in Guild Wars?

Also, you CAN currently buy another account. And the going rate is about $50 for four characters. You can argue that they have overhead, or the pricing is $30 of server access and $20 per character or whatever you want, but $50/four characters *is* the definitive pricing.

Offering $10/char might be smart. They could probably get away with $15 if it came with anything else (i.e. storage slots or whatever).

For what it's worth, though, you can't currently run Guild Wars twice on one machine, to be logged in with two different accounts. I know.

Vangor

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2005

Purchasing a second account is not actually a viable solution, as unlockables are not shared between these accounts, nor is guilding nearly as simple, nor is storage space shared, and communication with a single person for messages does not extend to this second account (like noting a person is online as someone else in the guild), not to mention $50 for currently accessible content is a joke, that is where the bulk of this pricing comes in.

Fact is, additioanl item slots, such as a doubled Storage Vault, will not require much storage space or bandwidth for the slight, very slight, data transfer necessary, as well, the Characters themselves require a very small amount of data for accessing and keeping, ever transfered a saved character in say Dungeon Siege or Diablo? These spaces are small, very small, and while you can believe that the Guild Wars ones are slightly larger, this is not much, I could spend $20 on a harddrive to save thousands upon thousands of these.

Spending say $10 would certainly net a profit, designing a system to process these billing options and merely expand both will not cost this much unless ArenaNet uses some of the most convoluted programming for these systems, and even then, if you're paying $50 for the entire systems of the game, $10 is like purchasing another 1/5 of this, only in a much smaller context of the overall game size.

JoDiamonds

JoDiamonds

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

New England

The cost of a feature
Quote:
Not to be rude, but adding a number of characters wouldn't cost drek.
This is naive. If the quote was: "This is a trivial feature to add.", it would be true for some definition of trivial. Some seem to honestly believe that the only work involved is someone spending five minutes going to a computer store, buying a hard disk, and then sticking it in a computer somewhere. That image is just wrong.


Disk Space has nothing to do with the real cost
Quote:
The only thing that would be needed is extra disk space to store all the data.
Not remotely true. This statement shows unawareness all of the work required, which is far from the none seemingly claimed. It's a small feature in the grand scheme of things, compared to adding new areas with quests, or adding a new race. Yet trivial for Massive Online games is still not so cheap.

Someone spends manpower figuring out what options to offer. It's not as simple as saying, "Yes, let's sell characters for $5 per account" or "No, don't like that idea." ArenaNet and PlayNC must jointly decide what offerings to put forth to us, the Glorious Consumer. Offer just +1 character for a straight $$ cost? How much? What about more inventory space? Should it be a package deal? What's the hard limit on number of characters per account?

Then there's more technical issues.

Four characters fit nicely onto the character selection screen. Fix that, for whatever new limit of characters you want to have. Oh, you have to decide that too. Fixing the character selection screen is maybe 2-6 man weeks of work. It's not less than two manweeks, and that's pretty optimistic. If the average pay is $25/hour (not so unlikely), two (non-overtime) weeks of work costs 80 * $25 = $200 dollars. Will they definitely make that money back?

Let's say the CEO of ArenaNet (no idea who this is) decides she wants to offer increased #s of characters for an account.

1. CEO decides she wants the feature. Holds half hour meeting with just three other people (optomistic) to discuss how to do it.

Aside: That's two man hours, but highly paid ones. Let's say the average salary at that meeting is $75/hour. That's $150 for the first short meeting. No, I'm not going to keep computing the cost to the manufacturer, but the thought interested me.

2. Research by PlayNC marketing is done to see who wants it, and how much each user would pay for it, and decides on all the (sub)features they'd like to see as part of this and how much they want to charge.

3. Game programmers / designers / artists / network engineers / database programmers implement the feature. Easily a week of work (combined, anyway). Designers have to make sure this doesn't break the game in any way, including the economy, PvP, PvE, vendors, etc. Virtually no "work" from a design standpoint, but a lot to consider for a "little feature". May require art; at least artist input. Includes reprogramming the character selection screen, probably. Update the website and store, and the ability to add the code to your account. Might require restructuring the database. Marketing has to prepare press release kinds of information.

4. QA testing, probably first internally by ArenaNet (on their test servers, which require their own cost to maintain), then probably by the publisher's testers, and probably at least casually by producers at both the dev studio and the publishers along the way for approval. This testing includes the purchasing system, the system itself, making sure all "normal" aspects of another character are still taken into account (i.e. that there's nothing left from any programmer anywhere that assumed it would be four characters or less), adding fifty new ones at once, etc.

5. Oh, someone has to make sure there's enough hard disk space. Just kidding. (Hah!) Probably, no one is worrying about that for this feature at all. Instead, the system administrator is just generally watching to see how full the disks are getting, and talking to someone in Budgeting to make sure they can buy more disks when necessary. And talking to the developers in general to get a feel for what new features are going to consume a lot of space, and advertisers to know when there will be a flood of new customers. (Hah!)

Then it can finally be sold to someone.

I'm not trying to say this will break the bank. It's just not as simple as someone waving their hand and saying, "Oh, it's just some hard disk space." There's a real cost involved.


Seriously, about Hard Disk Space: We're not that smart anyway
Quote:
How much space does a character take up, say 100K (which is a HUGE amount of data for characters, believe me. Look at, for example, Baldur's Gate 2 or NWN and the size of their characters, and it's all around 30K or so). So every 3 characters takes up 300K of space.
Say all the 1 million players want this, they need 1 million times 300K of storage space extra, which is 300 gigs of storage space. The total cost of that storage space is about 300 dollars, say times 5 if they have it in a RAID 5, is 1500 dollars.
Oh no, that five dollars per customer really isn't going to cut it.
The cost of storage is probably more than five times as much, for full RAID with constant backup and monitoring hosted in a major ISP, etc.

Also, the amount of space for a massively online character probably can't be reasonably compared with a seemingly similar character for a regular PC game. The two formats are just wildly different. Baldur's Gate and NWN make a compact little file for your character. Massive Online characters are in some ginormous database with a million tables, where the character is spread out across a big pile of data structures. I don't know how much it is. Maybe it's smaller, because databases are efficient. But unless someone here has actual ly worked with Massive Online databases, I doubt we're qualified to really hazard a guess.


Number of Players
Also, I understand you are being pessimistic in one way (for estimating their costs), but for what it's worth, GuildWars has nothing like a million accounts. Only three Massive Online games have ever broken a million accounts. Very few have more than a few hundred thousand. What % of players would expand their account? 1%? I dunno. That's what the marketing department is for. But I assume most players would not bother.

Guildwars isn't old enough to be on here, but since I'm fairly certain it's not in World of Warcraft range, this at least gives some idea: http://www.mmogchart.com/

Even World of Warcraft took a while to get to half a million subscribers. If Guild Wars has even 100,000 subscribers before two months have passed, it's pretty successful. (Brief list to give an idea: World of Warcraft has 1.5 million accounts. The Sims Online currently has about 40,000. Everquest has about 450,000.)


$4.98 out of $5.00 isn't true, and it doesn't matter
Quote:
Seriously, if they do this because they want to stop hording etc, I can understand that, although I REALLY want more characters. I've already deleted two whom I had played for about 30+ hours, because I'm out of space.

But the cost behind it is miniscule, really. 5 dollars per account would be a 4.98 dollar profit for them.
I don't think it would be anything that good. Even then, it's a misleading figure: Even if that were true, that doesn't automatically mean it would be profitable. If they only sold 1,000 of them, that would only be $5,000. It wouldn't even be profitable at that rate.

It will come someday. $8-$10
They'll get around to it someday. The longer they wait the more in demand this feature will be. I estimate it will cost $8-$10 per character, if it's as simple as that.

Nearly everyone who would buy one or a few more characters for $5 would do it for $8, and most for $10, but $10 sounds a lot higher than $8. I'm not in marketing, so that's mostly Making Stuff Up. I *hope* that marketing figures out that $5 is the right price!

But I'm willing to make a public claim, if only to see if I'm right someday. =)

This was too long to be really useful.

Ollj

Ollj

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

I vote for purchsing more character slots.
Hope it will be in a buyable expansion annyways (new classes require new slots).