I'm looking for a ranger that can spam barrage. Just Barrage, pure barrage user, basically I'm looking for something that can take over an Ele in the department of AoE nuking.
At first I started thinking ranger/mo with judge's insight, barrage, tiger's fury and favorable winds. This way he can keep the zealous string, would need less expertise to get along, and do awesome damage in 1 go. But...this didn't work out on the builder, I had to put points into Expertise, Beast Mastery, Marksmanship and Smiting.
...Looked at the possibility of using a ranger with conjure...that was even worse. All the problems and none of the advantages.
So, I think I'm gonna have to come to some sort of settlement on this one. First of all:
Is having Tiger's Fury on permenantly worth it? I'm investing 10 points into beastmastery for this one skill...how much in terms of damage does it actually increase. I know it means 50% more damage for normal attacks, but...how does that work when you're spamming barrage? I'm having trouble getting my head round this one. Can we simply assume that if its on half the time its 25% more damage? If so then I think we'd be better off dropping it altogether and shoveling the points into our other skills.
Is Judge's Insight worth it? The thing costs 10 energy to recast should the enchantment be removed, and it really dosen't last very long anyway. How much of a boost in damage does it give anyway? Is it more or less than a conjure?
Barrage Build
JYX
Kishin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Everous
I'm looking for a ranger that can spam barrage. Just Barrage, pure barrage user, basically I'm looking for something that can take over an Ele in the department of AoE nuking.
At first I started thinking ranger/mo with judge's insight, barrage, tiger's fury and favorable winds. This way he can keep the zealous string, would need less expertise to get along, and do awesome damage in 1 go. But...this didn't work out on the builder, I had to put points into Expertise, Beast Mastery, Marksmanship and Smiting.
...Looked at the possibility of using a ranger with conjure...that was even worse. All the problems and none of the advantages.
So, I think I'm gonna have to come to some sort of settlement on this one. First of all:
Is having Tiger's Fury on permenantly worth it? I'm investing 10 points into beastmastery for this one skill...how much in terms of damage does it actually increase. I know it means 50% more damage for normal attacks, but...how does that work when you're spamming barrage? I'm having trouble getting my head round this one. Can we simply assume that if its on half the time its 25% more damage? If so then I think we'd be better off dropping it altogether and shoveling the points into our other skills.
Is Judge's Insight worth it? The thing costs 10 energy to recast should the enchantment be removed, and it really dosen't last very long anyway. How much of a boost in damage does it give anyway? Is it more or less than a conjure? Well, I dunno if you can ever really hope to outstrip an Elementalist (at least, a Fire Elementalist) in sheer AoE damage, being that that is their specialty, but there are a few things you can try. Furthermore, Barrage is really more useful in PvE than PvP, as people in PvP tend not to be clumped closer together.
First things first, I wouldn't bother putting 10 points in Beast Mastery. Put in 3 or 4 at the most, then use a minor rune on it. That should give you 7-8 seconds of Fury, where 10 is only going to give you 2 or 3 more than that. Really almost a waste. Also, this way you can do an 11/10/9/3 build (With the 11 of course, being in Expertise. You want to have 14 Expertise as a Ranger, no matter what, as it will drop 10 energy skills to 4 and 5 energy to 2.) Also, Tiger's Fury's speed boost will effect the time in which you use skills. Just watch the animation and you'll see.
And yes, Judge's Insight seems to be standard fare for a Barrage build, for two reasons. 1) 20% armor penetration effectively makes someone with 60 AL into someone with 48 AL, which is quite significantly. 2) It turns your damage into holy damage, which bypasses all those nasty resistances some types of armor have (such as Warrior resistance to physical damage, or anything with piercing resistance). It also generally lasts longer than its recharge period, so you have the option of almost always having it up, which is a distinct possibility when you have 14 Expertise (It is extremely difficult to run out of energy with a 56% reduction in skill cost, unless you're speed boosted).
I wouldn't worry about anyone removing it in PvP, either. Honestly, if someone is Rending or using any sort of Enchantment Removal on a team's Ranger, there's one of two things going on:
1) They're not a good team, and not at all together on issues of targetting, in which case, more power to you.
2) Everyone else is dead except Warriors, in which case you've already lost.
So, it really is a perfectly viable build, but Barrage really shines more in PvE than PvP. My personal preference, however, is toward Mark of Pain + Barrage on a group of somewhat tightly packed enemies. That's some absolutely savage damage output, but a bit harder to set up and maintain compared to Judge's Insight, as it requires the enemies to keep together.
Anyway, hope that's helpful.
At first I started thinking ranger/mo with judge's insight, barrage, tiger's fury and favorable winds. This way he can keep the zealous string, would need less expertise to get along, and do awesome damage in 1 go. But...this didn't work out on the builder, I had to put points into Expertise, Beast Mastery, Marksmanship and Smiting.
...Looked at the possibility of using a ranger with conjure...that was even worse. All the problems and none of the advantages.
So, I think I'm gonna have to come to some sort of settlement on this one. First of all:
Is having Tiger's Fury on permenantly worth it? I'm investing 10 points into beastmastery for this one skill...how much in terms of damage does it actually increase. I know it means 50% more damage for normal attacks, but...how does that work when you're spamming barrage? I'm having trouble getting my head round this one. Can we simply assume that if its on half the time its 25% more damage? If so then I think we'd be better off dropping it altogether and shoveling the points into our other skills.
Is Judge's Insight worth it? The thing costs 10 energy to recast should the enchantment be removed, and it really dosen't last very long anyway. How much of a boost in damage does it give anyway? Is it more or less than a conjure? Well, I dunno if you can ever really hope to outstrip an Elementalist (at least, a Fire Elementalist) in sheer AoE damage, being that that is their specialty, but there are a few things you can try. Furthermore, Barrage is really more useful in PvE than PvP, as people in PvP tend not to be clumped closer together.
First things first, I wouldn't bother putting 10 points in Beast Mastery. Put in 3 or 4 at the most, then use a minor rune on it. That should give you 7-8 seconds of Fury, where 10 is only going to give you 2 or 3 more than that. Really almost a waste. Also, this way you can do an 11/10/9/3 build (With the 11 of course, being in Expertise. You want to have 14 Expertise as a Ranger, no matter what, as it will drop 10 energy skills to 4 and 5 energy to 2.) Also, Tiger's Fury's speed boost will effect the time in which you use skills. Just watch the animation and you'll see.
And yes, Judge's Insight seems to be standard fare for a Barrage build, for two reasons. 1) 20% armor penetration effectively makes someone with 60 AL into someone with 48 AL, which is quite significantly. 2) It turns your damage into holy damage, which bypasses all those nasty resistances some types of armor have (such as Warrior resistance to physical damage, or anything with piercing resistance). It also generally lasts longer than its recharge period, so you have the option of almost always having it up, which is a distinct possibility when you have 14 Expertise (It is extremely difficult to run out of energy with a 56% reduction in skill cost, unless you're speed boosted).
I wouldn't worry about anyone removing it in PvP, either. Honestly, if someone is Rending or using any sort of Enchantment Removal on a team's Ranger, there's one of two things going on:
1) They're not a good team, and not at all together on issues of targetting, in which case, more power to you.
2) Everyone else is dead except Warriors, in which case you've already lost.
So, it really is a perfectly viable build, but Barrage really shines more in PvE than PvP. My personal preference, however, is toward Mark of Pain + Barrage on a group of somewhat tightly packed enemies. That's some absolutely savage damage output, but a bit harder to set up and maintain compared to Judge's Insight, as it requires the enemies to keep together.
Anyway, hope that's helpful.
Sting
Yeah unless your trying to listen to the "uber" rangers who 2 hit people all the time your simply not going to out damage an elementalist and will get nothing but frustrated if you try LOL. At best youll do ok damage and alot of DoT.
rii
hehehe, i remember rangering in just after the searing areas. i mean, ignite arrows, duel shot, mark of pain, and favourable winds and i was barraging :S. its good.
As for Ji, its a spell, so expertise doesnt affect it. Therefore it is 10 energy.
I have a feeling to be running something like ji constantly youll need 14 expertise. 11+3 isnt so bad tbh. Recasting ji is 10 energy every 17 seconds.... the equivalent of half the energy youll regen in that period. (3 pips = 1 energy per second, 17 seconds = 17 energy, 10 for ji.) That means to break even you need to spend 7 energy in 17 seconds :S. not going to happned tbh, so your in for a loss. At 14 expertise barrage is 2 energy, so assuming a cast once every.... 1.5 seconds (whats bow rate with tigers) then thats a total of 25.5 energy. Take one off for the recast and thats 24 energy.Therefore every 17 seconds you make a loss of energy of 18 energy :S. Ouch. With a 30 pool, thats a rough running time of 20-25 seconds.
omfg. i forgot tigers fury in there :S. thats 4 energy every 10 seconds. Which is 2 less barrages every 10 seconds. Not the most pleasant. It seems that ji is somewhat impractical, if your going for endurance. And I think that’s best. As has been said above, your not going to out damage an ele, but you can beat them in sustained aoe. They haven’t got the marathon ability.
Then the damage. To run expertise, smiting and beast mastery, your not going to be using marksmanship :S. Which means no good bow for you. You could spread the love and abandon my beloved three attributes, and go
expertise: 11+3
beast mastery: 9 tigers runs 9 seconds out of 10.
smiting: 8 ji runs 15 seconds.
marksmanship: 8+1 (most bows are 9 marksmanship required) +9 on barrage.
So thats do-able, but lots of energy. The dps is (assuming a bow of average damage per shot 20) and on a 60AL target (i.e. caster classes):
20
+9
then 48AL is 125% damage. so 29 to 125% = 36.25
call it 32dps for the fire rate. aoe to 5 people. so combined its 160dps.
erm
a bit too much energy.
Ok lets look at conjure.
First, the element best suited would probably be water. Fire and Air are the most protected, and I don’t know whether this is still the case but people with fire used to have minus against water. Woohoo. Using the same attribute distribution except water instead of smiting, and it adds a grand total of 9 cold damage. You don’t get the ap of ji, but, your using water ele attacks, which means youll be facing basic armour for 99.99% of applicants. This alleviates the crappyness of running ji every 15 seconds, its possible that in most fights youll get away with casting it once at the beginning and that’s it. This means in turn, you only really have to use your 4 energy to run tigers. With a minor on bm, you’ve got it running 10 seconds, and that’s less than your regen is giving you. So from a pool of 30, you have -10 from conjure (which should regen before the battle), then assume say -4 every 10 and then say 8 shots every ten seconds is another -16. so every ten seconds your loosing 20 energy. You regen ten in this time, so you can run (from 30 start) barrage for thirty seconds without halting. Which is longer than ji, more efficient than ji, but is it more damage>?
20 basic
+9 marksmanship
+9 conjure
=38 per shot. :S this is more than ji?? Ouch. Maybe I went wrong somewhere but I think it ends up the same more or less for damage. Whatsmore, if im right, its more. \
a couple of things. If you put points into bm you can take fertile season and youll be loved underworld
.
Favorable winds bonus is the same for both of em. Running a zealous string …..with high expertise why not. Overall…….. it ends up as your-basic-attack-plus-some but on 5 peo
As for Ji, its a spell, so expertise doesnt affect it. Therefore it is 10 energy.
I have a feeling to be running something like ji constantly youll need 14 expertise. 11+3 isnt so bad tbh. Recasting ji is 10 energy every 17 seconds.... the equivalent of half the energy youll regen in that period. (3 pips = 1 energy per second, 17 seconds = 17 energy, 10 for ji.) That means to break even you need to spend 7 energy in 17 seconds :S. not going to happned tbh, so your in for a loss. At 14 expertise barrage is 2 energy, so assuming a cast once every.... 1.5 seconds (whats bow rate with tigers) then thats a total of 25.5 energy. Take one off for the recast and thats 24 energy.Therefore every 17 seconds you make a loss of energy of 18 energy :S. Ouch. With a 30 pool, thats a rough running time of 20-25 seconds.
omfg. i forgot tigers fury in there :S. thats 4 energy every 10 seconds. Which is 2 less barrages every 10 seconds. Not the most pleasant. It seems that ji is somewhat impractical, if your going for endurance. And I think that’s best. As has been said above, your not going to out damage an ele, but you can beat them in sustained aoe. They haven’t got the marathon ability.
Then the damage. To run expertise, smiting and beast mastery, your not going to be using marksmanship :S. Which means no good bow for you. You could spread the love and abandon my beloved three attributes, and go
expertise: 11+3
beast mastery: 9 tigers runs 9 seconds out of 10.
smiting: 8 ji runs 15 seconds.
marksmanship: 8+1 (most bows are 9 marksmanship required) +9 on barrage.
So thats do-able, but lots of energy. The dps is (assuming a bow of average damage per shot 20) and on a 60AL target (i.e. caster classes):
20
+9
then 48AL is 125% damage. so 29 to 125% = 36.25
call it 32dps for the fire rate. aoe to 5 people. so combined its 160dps.
erm
a bit too much energy.
Ok lets look at conjure.
First, the element best suited would probably be water. Fire and Air are the most protected, and I don’t know whether this is still the case but people with fire used to have minus against water. Woohoo. Using the same attribute distribution except water instead of smiting, and it adds a grand total of 9 cold damage. You don’t get the ap of ji, but, your using water ele attacks, which means youll be facing basic armour for 99.99% of applicants. This alleviates the crappyness of running ji every 15 seconds, its possible that in most fights youll get away with casting it once at the beginning and that’s it. This means in turn, you only really have to use your 4 energy to run tigers. With a minor on bm, you’ve got it running 10 seconds, and that’s less than your regen is giving you. So from a pool of 30, you have -10 from conjure (which should regen before the battle), then assume say -4 every 10 and then say 8 shots every ten seconds is another -16. so every ten seconds your loosing 20 energy. You regen ten in this time, so you can run (from 30 start) barrage for thirty seconds without halting. Which is longer than ji, more efficient than ji, but is it more damage>?
20 basic
+9 marksmanship
+9 conjure
=38 per shot. :S this is more than ji?? Ouch. Maybe I went wrong somewhere but I think it ends up the same more or less for damage. Whatsmore, if im right, its more. \
a couple of things. If you put points into bm you can take fertile season and youll be loved underworld
. Favorable winds bonus is the same for both of em. Running a zealous string …..with high expertise why not. Overall…….. it ends up as your-basic-attack-plus-some but on 5 peo
Kishin
Quote:
Originally Posted by rii
hehehe, i remember rangering in just after the searing areas. i mean, ignite arrows, duel shot, mark of pain, and favourable winds and i was barraging :S. its good.
As for Ji, its a spell, so expertise doesnt affect it. Therefore it is 10 energy.
I have a feeling to be running something like ji constantly youll need 14 expertise. 11+3 isnt so bad tbh. Recasting ji is 10 energy every 17 seconds.... the equivalent of half the energy youll regen in that period. (3 pips = 1 energy per second, 17 seconds = 17 energy, 10 for ji.) That means to break even you need to spend 7 energy in 17 seconds :S. not going to happned tbh, so your in for a loss. At 14 expertise barrage is 2 energy, so assuming a cast once every.... 1.5 seconds (whats bow rate with tigers) then thats a total of 25.5 energy. Take one off for the recast and thats 24 energy.Therefore every 17 seconds you make a loss of energy of 18 energy :S. Ouch. With a 30 pool, thats a rough running time of 20-25 seconds.
omfg. i forgot tigers fury in there :S. thats 4 energy every 10 seconds. Which is 2 less barrages every 10 seconds. Not the most pleasant. It seems that ji is somewhat impractical, if your going for endurance. And I think that’s best. As has been said above, your not going to out damage an ele, but you can beat them in sustained aoe. They haven’t got the marathon ability.
Then the damage. To run expertise, smiting and beast mastery, your not going to be using marksmanship :S. Which means no good bow for you. You could spread the love and abandon my beloved three attributes, and go
expertise: 11+3
beast mastery: 9 tigers runs 9 seconds out of 10.
smiting: 8 ji runs 15 seconds.
marksmanship: 8+1 (most bows are 9 marksmanship required) +9 on barrage.
So thats do-able, but lots of energy. The dps is (assuming a bow of average damage per shot 20) and on a 60AL target (i.e. caster classes):
20
+9
then 48AL is 125% damage. so 29 to 125% = 36.25
call it 32dps for the fire rate. aoe to 5 people. so combined its 160dps.
erm
a bit too much energy. Two words: Zealous bowstring. And thus was the energy crisis solved.
Furthermore, the holy damage aspect of Judge's Insight counts for quite a bit, what with a) ignoring nasty resistances and b) putting some serious hurt on the undead.
You also really don't need 9 Beastmastery for this to be effective. 4 or 5 is enough. Thereby allowing you to boost your Marksmanship, and thereby the damage of Barrage.
As for Ji, its a spell, so expertise doesnt affect it. Therefore it is 10 energy.
I have a feeling to be running something like ji constantly youll need 14 expertise. 11+3 isnt so bad tbh. Recasting ji is 10 energy every 17 seconds.... the equivalent of half the energy youll regen in that period. (3 pips = 1 energy per second, 17 seconds = 17 energy, 10 for ji.) That means to break even you need to spend 7 energy in 17 seconds :S. not going to happned tbh, so your in for a loss. At 14 expertise barrage is 2 energy, so assuming a cast once every.... 1.5 seconds (whats bow rate with tigers) then thats a total of 25.5 energy. Take one off for the recast and thats 24 energy.Therefore every 17 seconds you make a loss of energy of 18 energy :S. Ouch. With a 30 pool, thats a rough running time of 20-25 seconds.
omfg. i forgot tigers fury in there :S. thats 4 energy every 10 seconds. Which is 2 less barrages every 10 seconds. Not the most pleasant. It seems that ji is somewhat impractical, if your going for endurance. And I think that’s best. As has been said above, your not going to out damage an ele, but you can beat them in sustained aoe. They haven’t got the marathon ability.
Then the damage. To run expertise, smiting and beast mastery, your not going to be using marksmanship :S. Which means no good bow for you. You could spread the love and abandon my beloved three attributes, and go
expertise: 11+3
beast mastery: 9 tigers runs 9 seconds out of 10.
smiting: 8 ji runs 15 seconds.
marksmanship: 8+1 (most bows are 9 marksmanship required) +9 on barrage.
So thats do-able, but lots of energy. The dps is (assuming a bow of average damage per shot 20) and on a 60AL target (i.e. caster classes):
20
+9
then 48AL is 125% damage. so 29 to 125% = 36.25
call it 32dps for the fire rate. aoe to 5 people. so combined its 160dps.
erm
a bit too much energy. Two words: Zealous bowstring. And thus was the energy crisis solved.
Furthermore, the holy damage aspect of Judge's Insight counts for quite a bit, what with a) ignoring nasty resistances and b) putting some serious hurt on the undead.
You also really don't need 9 Beastmastery for this to be effective. 4 or 5 is enough. Thereby allowing you to boost your Marksmanship, and thereby the damage of Barrage.
sino-soviet
Unfortunately a conjure and a zealous isnt viable, so I think monk is the ONLY secondary for this kind of build. I would run the following:
11 Marksmanship +3 rune
10 expertise +1 rune, +1 mask
9 smiting prayers
4 Beastmastery +1 rune
Barrage (elite)
Tiger's fury
Judge's Insight
Favorable winds
?
?
?
?
Im not sure about the other skills. Zealous + barrage + 12 in expertise + druids armor = an instant solution to energy problems. Barrage will actually gain mana, Judges still 10, tigers about 4. Energy engine looks pretty good.
As far as buffs, Tiger's fury increases your damage by 50%. That is a HUGE amount. With 5, it will last around 7-8 seconds, which I think should suffice.
Judge's insight is a must too. If you even hope to compete with a AOe fire ele in terms of sheer damage output, you'll need both of these buffs running whenever possible. Actually, what about Kindle arrows? Doesnt seem like too bad of a choice.
11 Marksmanship +3 rune
10 expertise +1 rune, +1 mask
9 smiting prayers
4 Beastmastery +1 rune
Barrage (elite)
Tiger's fury
Judge's Insight
Favorable winds
?
?
?
?
Im not sure about the other skills. Zealous + barrage + 12 in expertise + druids armor = an instant solution to energy problems. Barrage will actually gain mana, Judges still 10, tigers about 4. Energy engine looks pretty good.
As far as buffs, Tiger's fury increases your damage by 50%. That is a HUGE amount. With 5, it will last around 7-8 seconds, which I think should suffice.
Judge's insight is a must too. If you even hope to compete with a AOe fire ele in terms of sheer damage output, you'll need both of these buffs running whenever possible. Actually, what about Kindle arrows? Doesnt seem like too bad of a choice.
Shrapnel_Magnet
14 is the bare minimum you want to have in Expertise if you're running a lot of Ranger skills... period.
Also, whoever said Barrage is more useful for PvE is mistaken... it's excellent in either.
All barrage REALLY needs is Tiger's Fury or Frenzy... throw 4 points in Beast Mastery (3+1 minor rune) to get 7 seconds out of Tiger's Fury, and try to make sure that it's always up...
Picking up a zealous bowstring and slapping it on a short or half moon bow is also recomended.
Also, whoever said Barrage is more useful for PvE is mistaken... it's excellent in either.
All barrage REALLY needs is Tiger's Fury or Frenzy... throw 4 points in Beast Mastery (3+1 minor rune) to get 7 seconds out of Tiger's Fury, and try to make sure that it's always up...
Picking up a zealous bowstring and slapping it on a short or half moon bow is also recomended.
Kishin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrapnel_Magnet
14 is the bare minimum you want to have in Expertise if you're running a lot of Ranger skills... period.
Also, whoever said Barrage is more useful for PvE is mistaken... it's excellent in either.
All barrage REALLY needs is Tiger's Fury or Frenzy... throw 4 points in Beast Mastery (3+1 minor rune) to get 7 seconds out of Tiger's Fury, and try to make sure that it's always up...
Picking up a zealous bowstring and slapping it on a short or half moon bow is also recomended. I'll defer to your significantly superior Ranger-ness in this matter Shrapnel. But I hope you won't mind me picking your brain. You'd take Barrage over something like Poison Arrow for PvP? Even Melandru's Arrows, what with enchantments running rampant in the environment, seems like it would go further. (Although admittedly, your target should be nicely Rent/Shattered/Devoid of enchantment goodness in an ideal world). It just seems like going the Barrage route places the emphasis on DPS, and is that an efficient use for a Ranger in a team build situation? (I ask this because I simply haven't had the opportunity to run a 8 man team build for synergy in PvP). Ensign has said on these boards you folks in iQ run a Ranger in your standard HoH build, is that with Barrage? (Not to pry into your build at all).
Anyway, just thought I'd ask your reasoning behind it, in order to gain some insight.
Also, whoever said Barrage is more useful for PvE is mistaken... it's excellent in either.
All barrage REALLY needs is Tiger's Fury or Frenzy... throw 4 points in Beast Mastery (3+1 minor rune) to get 7 seconds out of Tiger's Fury, and try to make sure that it's always up...
Picking up a zealous bowstring and slapping it on a short or half moon bow is also recomended. I'll defer to your significantly superior Ranger-ness in this matter Shrapnel. But I hope you won't mind me picking your brain. You'd take Barrage over something like Poison Arrow for PvP? Even Melandru's Arrows, what with enchantments running rampant in the environment, seems like it would go further. (Although admittedly, your target should be nicely Rent/Shattered/Devoid of enchantment goodness in an ideal world). It just seems like going the Barrage route places the emphasis on DPS, and is that an efficient use for a Ranger in a team build situation? (I ask this because I simply haven't had the opportunity to run a 8 man team build for synergy in PvP). Ensign has said on these boards you folks in iQ run a Ranger in your standard HoH build, is that with Barrage? (Not to pry into your build at all).
Anyway, just thought I'd ask your reasoning behind it, in order to gain some insight.
sino-soviet
Thats interesting..I always thought of punishing shot as the clutch pvp elite for a ranger.
StoneDrunk
Your best bet with Barrage imo is using multiple Mark of Pains and then having your Barrage trigger each one to cause added area damage. Using Quicking Zephyr and Serpents Quickness you can easily toss 2-3 mark of pains on targets then let loose with barrage. Theres a pretty hefty energy cost involved though, so best incorporate your teammates into tossing Marks as well.
Stone
Sissy Boys
Stone
Sissy Boys
Zyuu
mark of pain is the way to go
consider quick shot though
Z
consider quick shot though
Z
Shrapnel_Magnet
Barrage over Poison Arrow? 100% of the time, yes. Reasoning? Monks on reasonable teams remove conditions. Sure, Poison Arrow is what, 4 pips of degen? Ok, add that to the usual Ranger/Mesmer out there who's (for God knows why) running Conjure Phantasm (5 pips of degen) for a total of -9 pips of degen.
Sure, that sounds really deadly... but when you're sitting on 455+ hp (Sup Vigor + at least 1 Sup Skill Rune is assumed) it's just not that scary.
Poison can take its toll over time if left unchecked, but this just isn't the case with any teams that are worth beating.
As for multiple Mark of Pains running... unless you're switching to your Wand and Focus for +Energy, how are you going to keep casting 3 of them? Not only that, monks see skills like that and on Dias maps... they remove them. In GvG this isn't even less of an issue because the person with Mark of Pain on them might move away from team-mates... rendering its effects useless. That said, if they don't remove them, you're doing some serious damage, no doubt... but I'd consider it pretty situational.
I like Mark of Pain, I really do, but so do a lot of other people... and for good reason. This is also why it's not uncommonly targetted for removal.
Melandru's Arrows... hmm, I have limited experience with this skill, but I would consider it to be a "Read the Wind on Crack"... which would make it a half-decent skill. I might be tempted to run it, but I'd severely miss the Barrage.
First look at Barrage for a second and see why it's so good. It costs any Ranger worth his salt, 2 energy. It recharges in 1 second... and it immidiately adds damage to his attacks. Not only this, you can catch multiple targets with it. When you hit 4-5 people with Barrage and you've got Tiger's Fury going... you should be striking for around 30-60 damage per shot, depending on the opponent. Ideally, you could hit 50 damage x5 opponents for 250 damage, spread among them. With Tiger's Fury on, you're probably going to hit that group at least twice. Assuming we get similar numbers, you've just hit for upwards of 500 damage. Compare that to the single target Poison Arrow which under the MOST Ideal of situations does a slow drain of -4 pips for what, 15 seconds? I'll be taking Barrage, thanks.
Punishing Shot would definitly have it's perks, no quams there, but Distracting Shot is easily the most effective and damaging interrupt the Ranger has to offer. In recharges decently fast and fires FASTER than Quick Shot... sure it only strikes for 15 damage (ideally), but I've been known to use it for the damage alone, believe it or not. I'll tell you why. If you fire Penetrating Shot + Distracting Shot, you're doing the damage from Penetrating Attack followed almost instantly by +15 damage from Distracting Shot and you might hit something important... it's nothing special, but it's such an expendable skill, why not? Back to Punishing Shot, however... I like it, but there'd have to be a good case for it for me to give up Barrage.
Quick Shot... people have tried to convert me to the Quick Shot side before and I gave it a try... to mixed results. I wasn't dissapointed with it... but I wasn't overly impressed with what I saw. Maybe with something like Choking Gas? I dunno, I'm not too familiar with it.
I've always had a secret love of Called Shot... but I never run it... lol... I think it's better off left at home.
Sure, that sounds really deadly... but when you're sitting on 455+ hp (Sup Vigor + at least 1 Sup Skill Rune is assumed) it's just not that scary.
Poison can take its toll over time if left unchecked, but this just isn't the case with any teams that are worth beating.
As for multiple Mark of Pains running... unless you're switching to your Wand and Focus for +Energy, how are you going to keep casting 3 of them? Not only that, monks see skills like that and on Dias maps... they remove them. In GvG this isn't even less of an issue because the person with Mark of Pain on them might move away from team-mates... rendering its effects useless. That said, if they don't remove them, you're doing some serious damage, no doubt... but I'd consider it pretty situational.
I like Mark of Pain, I really do, but so do a lot of other people... and for good reason. This is also why it's not uncommonly targetted for removal.
Melandru's Arrows... hmm, I have limited experience with this skill, but I would consider it to be a "Read the Wind on Crack"... which would make it a half-decent skill. I might be tempted to run it, but I'd severely miss the Barrage.
First look at Barrage for a second and see why it's so good. It costs any Ranger worth his salt, 2 energy. It recharges in 1 second... and it immidiately adds damage to his attacks. Not only this, you can catch multiple targets with it. When you hit 4-5 people with Barrage and you've got Tiger's Fury going... you should be striking for around 30-60 damage per shot, depending on the opponent. Ideally, you could hit 50 damage x5 opponents for 250 damage, spread among them. With Tiger's Fury on, you're probably going to hit that group at least twice. Assuming we get similar numbers, you've just hit for upwards of 500 damage. Compare that to the single target Poison Arrow which under the MOST Ideal of situations does a slow drain of -4 pips for what, 15 seconds? I'll be taking Barrage, thanks.
Punishing Shot would definitly have it's perks, no quams there, but Distracting Shot is easily the most effective and damaging interrupt the Ranger has to offer. In recharges decently fast and fires FASTER than Quick Shot... sure it only strikes for 15 damage (ideally), but I've been known to use it for the damage alone, believe it or not. I'll tell you why. If you fire Penetrating Shot + Distracting Shot, you're doing the damage from Penetrating Attack followed almost instantly by +15 damage from Distracting Shot and you might hit something important... it's nothing special, but it's such an expendable skill, why not? Back to Punishing Shot, however... I like it, but there'd have to be a good case for it for me to give up Barrage.
Quick Shot... people have tried to convert me to the Quick Shot side before and I gave it a try... to mixed results. I wasn't dissapointed with it... but I wasn't overly impressed with what I saw. Maybe with something like Choking Gas? I dunno, I'm not too familiar with it.
I've always had a secret love of Called Shot... but I never run it... lol... I think it's better off left at home.
JYX
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting
Yeah unless your trying to listen to the "uber" rangers who 2 hit people all the time your simply not going to out damage an elementalist and will get nothing but frustrated if you try LOL. At best youll do ok damage and alot of DoT.
...I can out-damage an elementalist on the basis of DPS with my mesmer. Eles excel in spike damages but in terms of pure DPS, they are generally quite poor. I agree absolutely with Shrapnel_Magnet that Barrage is good in PvP or PvE, the +13 damage is worth it even if you're just looking at one target.
>.>
28 dmg from bow
+10 from Judge's Insight +13 from Barrage +6 from favorable winds
thats 57 damage per shot due to the armor penetrating bonus of Judge's Insight.
Flatbow has a massive range and the fastest refire rate of 2 secs. Tiger's Fury buffs the DPS by 50%...
57/2 * 1.5 = 42.75 DPS to an area. None stop. Stand on a hill or something...much more.
In fire you got wonderful AoEs like...Fireball, Rodgort's Invocation and Searing Heat. In terms of DPS fireball continually recast is only 10dps. Rodgort's invocation gives you 8.4 DPS. Searing heat? ...5 DPS >.>
...this sir...is shocking DPS, even if you echo it and have it all going at the same time. As well as having huge casting times for some of them and being very energy intensive. The Ranger barrage user has absolutely no energy problems, and on top of that, better DPS. Though I don't doubt that if you want to kill somebody quickly by piling on the damage immediately, eles are the way to go. Here, I'm looking for something with high AoE DPS.
Mark of pain? Yeah ok, but thats getting into the conditional damages, the way to counter mark of pain?...take a step away from your teammates. The area of effect is not large, in fact its downright small. Not too hard to do to counter something with such slow recharge and long casting time.
So according to Shrapnel, I don't need Judge's Insight at all? Thats going to affect my DPS more than I can stand I feel.
I just realised that one of the major perks of having Judge's Insight over a conjure is that you don't have to invest so many points into it. The damage from a conjure depends on you piling in the points, the only way that Judge's Insight is affected is it lasts longer. I can deal with having to recast every 15 secs tbh. I worked out the potential energy gain from using barrage on 3 targets at once, and the energy gained is more than what I'm losing. I can in theory afford to go on forever.
This is the best dispersion I can come up with: assuming that we're using Judge's Insight, Barrage, Favorable Winds and Tiger's Fury.
Expertise: 10 +3 rune +1 hat
BeastMastery: 6 (rune won't make any difference but ...+ 1 rune if you feel like it)
Marksmanship: 11 +1 rune
SmitingPrayers: 8
That'll give you, 2 energy Barrage, +13 damage Barrage, 15 seconds of Judge's Insight, 8 seconds of Tiger's Fury, 2 minutes of Favourable Winds with a level 8 spirit.
Originally I wanted 13 marksmanship, but this worked out to be 201 attribute points with 7 seconds of tiger's fury. So I settled for 12, and stuck a few more points into beastmastery.
>.>
28 dmg from bow
+10 from Judge's Insight +13 from Barrage +6 from favorable winds
thats 57 damage per shot due to the armor penetrating bonus of Judge's Insight.
Flatbow has a massive range and the fastest refire rate of 2 secs. Tiger's Fury buffs the DPS by 50%...
57/2 * 1.5 = 42.75 DPS to an area. None stop. Stand on a hill or something...much more.
In fire you got wonderful AoEs like...Fireball, Rodgort's Invocation and Searing Heat. In terms of DPS fireball continually recast is only 10dps. Rodgort's invocation gives you 8.4 DPS. Searing heat? ...5 DPS >.>
...this sir...is shocking DPS, even if you echo it and have it all going at the same time. As well as having huge casting times for some of them and being very energy intensive. The Ranger barrage user has absolutely no energy problems, and on top of that, better DPS. Though I don't doubt that if you want to kill somebody quickly by piling on the damage immediately, eles are the way to go. Here, I'm looking for something with high AoE DPS.
Mark of pain? Yeah ok, but thats getting into the conditional damages, the way to counter mark of pain?...take a step away from your teammates. The area of effect is not large, in fact its downright small. Not too hard to do to counter something with such slow recharge and long casting time.
So according to Shrapnel, I don't need Judge's Insight at all? Thats going to affect my DPS more than I can stand I feel.
I just realised that one of the major perks of having Judge's Insight over a conjure is that you don't have to invest so many points into it. The damage from a conjure depends on you piling in the points, the only way that Judge's Insight is affected is it lasts longer. I can deal with having to recast every 15 secs tbh. I worked out the potential energy gain from using barrage on 3 targets at once, and the energy gained is more than what I'm losing. I can in theory afford to go on forever.
This is the best dispersion I can come up with: assuming that we're using Judge's Insight, Barrage, Favorable Winds and Tiger's Fury.
Expertise: 10 +3 rune +1 hat
BeastMastery: 6 (rune won't make any difference but ...+ 1 rune if you feel like it)
Marksmanship: 11 +1 rune
SmitingPrayers: 8
That'll give you, 2 energy Barrage, +13 damage Barrage, 15 seconds of Judge's Insight, 8 seconds of Tiger's Fury, 2 minutes of Favourable Winds with a level 8 spirit.
Originally I wanted 13 marksmanship, but this worked out to be 201 attribute points with 7 seconds of tiger's fury. So I settled for 12, and stuck a few more points into beastmastery.
Shrapnel_Magnet
Favorable Winds? For one, Judge's Insight is a nice skill, no doubt... IF you're a R/Mo. Personally, I like to play a R/N, where I have a few more options.
But yeah, you're losing out by using the Flatbow... switch to a Half Moon or Short Bow... Also, I highly suggest dropping Favourable Winds for a useful skill...
But yeah, you're losing out by using the Flatbow... switch to a Half Moon or Short Bow... Also, I highly suggest dropping Favourable Winds for a useful skill...
Genos
persoanlly, ive done the+barrage conjour route.. it aint pretty. barrage+Ji.. possibly. as to 14 expertise? i prefer 13.. why? simply, unless i use a superior rune, i can take my skills (unmodified) to this - 10/10/10/5 - which Imho, is very nice. i personally use posion arrow a lot - its nice, fun to spam, and you can drive a monk nuts trying to keep his tema de-poisened. or just FF the monk and do let him look after his team mates.. lol. aslo flatbows are very nice, i prefer to let my opponets come to me... not me come to them.
go with what works. thats my ho.
go with what works. thats my ho.
JYX
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrapnel_Magnet
But yeah, you're losing out by using the Flatbow... switch to a Half Moon or Short Bow... Also, I highly suggest dropping Favourable Winds for a useful skill...
|
Originally Posted by Ensign on February 5, 2005
Flatbow 2.0 seconds 100' 1.0 seconds
Half Moon 2.0 seconds 70' 0.65 seconds Shortbow 2.0 seconds 70' 0.65 seconds I don't see how I'm losing out here. Yes 1 second is a bit much, but I'm not planning on interrupting here, when I start out the Barrage, I'm going to keep going, thus refire rate is the important factor surely. Also favorable winds was put in there in part to counter the rather long flight time of the Flatbow. Also, 4-5 more DPS...not great, but it helps, especially when you consider you're spamming it onto multiple people. As for people dodging, warriors can dodge all they want...the casters ie. the people we really want to target, surely strafing for them is going to be more of a hassle than a boon. Monks can't heal, mesmers can't shut down, eles can't nuke when strafing... Does 0.35 of a second difference in flight time really make the difference for a non-interrupting ranger? I'm not a ranger by trade...but it just seems on paper, a 42% increase in range is more helpful. ...although I'm running out of ideas on what a ra/mo can do to buff the Barrage. I wouldn't put Favorable Winds there...but I can't find anything else. Zyuu
judge's insight is only worth it on the actual ranger if you can maintain the energy, which only happens in the case where you hit like 4 people with barrage every time you shoot (zealous)
since we all know this rarely happens except for altar, I don't like JI.. must spend 8ish points in smiting to get ~15 duration, or something like that.. 10 energy, 2 recast.. I dont like it. Ive played with it for a looooong time, believe me.. i wanted it to be great, but its just mediocre (imo) yeah mark of pain is a liability, any build based on a single hex will be (ie fragility, etc).. im not saying rangers are great for this type of thing, but mop has the most potential, and thats what the original poster was asking about, ae dmg dont have a lot of time but.. here is some advice I always use 3 superiors (vigor, expertise, marks).. along with a 20hp grip (still cant find a 30 for sale :/) you'll be at 400 health. For a ranger this is fine 14 expertise always, always bring tiger's fury in any dmg based build, 3+1 in beastmastery marks up to 12 gets good benefit, marks after 12 still has good benefit imo if u are based solely on dmg from the bow, although the actual dmg / pt is reduced significantly, it still adds quite a bit, and in addition it will increase the chance to land critical hits, which is essential quick shot is nice with preps, choking gas is alright but not with quick shot, consider oath shot or practiced stance with gas. qs is good with things like kindle or mop, that benefit from lots of attacks 14 ex 15 marks 9 wild 4 bm is a nice pure ranger qs attribute line (3 sup), qs, pene, distracting, tigers, kindle, -, -, - depending on the team qs is also great with apply poison, and distracting (which u are right is great for an extra attack because it is so fast). apply poison, tiger's fury, normal attack, tab quick shot, tab distracting, tab quick shot = fast poison conditions have been overused to all heck lately though and people are bringing martyr a lot because of the abundance of tainted necros, so probably not such a good idea to run atm.. necro is a great secondary, rend <3 rigor mortis is alright too for physical heavy teams, but I prefer enchant removal than hexing in either case also that degen build u are talking about, you're correct that it sucks in organized pvp, it would be nice in pug since there is rarely any reliable enchant removal, and degen is armor ignoring obviously. also favorable winds is bad, what if there is a ranger on the other team, or two... i know its not that common but it happens.. just take something else rather than having a potentially useless skill lastly, barrage is a cool elite because it is great by itself along with a high marksmanship. it basically allows u to have it for altar (the only time its really that good).. while letting u have ~6 other skill slots to use for say interrupts, spirits or w/e else Z
JYX
...Thats great, thanks. Although its not really what I was looking for. Nice information about rangers in general though.
As I said in the beginning, I'm looking for a ranger that can deal out AoE damage, using Barrage. Zyuu, you need to hit 2 people regularly and 1 person occasionally for Judge's Insight to be on all the time alongside Barrage and Tiger's Fury. People being grouped close together isn't so outrageous, its common practise for PUGs in tombs to be grouped close and focus regligiously on 1 guy, also with any group employing wards this is going to be useful. No favorable winds ain't great. But unless you can think of something else to use with barrage, which is what we're going to be spamming all the way, its the only thing we have. Also since you're attacking multiple enemies it means that the effect of +6 is multiplied for you, unless they're doing the exact same thing, I don't see how they're going to get more out of this deal. Ripper
Great thread. Lots of good insight.
Corack
what about combining barrage with choking gas? Seems that oposing casters tend to be somewhat clustered enabling the ranger to easaly shut down 2-3 of them for choking gas's duration.
Ripper
Barrage removes all preperations. Choking gas is a preperation. You can't apply poison, or choking gas and barrage 6 targets.
Epinephrine
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrapnel_Magnet
14 is the bare minimum you want to have in Expertise if you're running a lot of Ranger skills... period.
Unless you pick carefully and don't take any 10 cost skills. Since I was running 5 cost skills I don't care for the extra point to get the break, 13 is enough. Ultimately look at the skills you have and the breakpoints - figure out how often you'll use each type of skill, and if it pays for it, bump to 14. If you are a barrage bot with distracting shot, hunter's shot and poison arrow for example as your non-barrage arrow skills it makes little sense to invest an extra rank to get no effect. As you can see, below, there is no advantage to going to a 14 if you don't use a lot of 10 cost or 25 cost skills; the 5 and 15 hit a breakpoint at 13 Expertise.
Expertise 5 Energy Skills 10 Energy Skills 15 Energy Skills 25 Energy Skills 0 5 10 15 25 1 5 10 14 24 2 5 9 14 23 3 4 9 13 22 4 4 8 13 21 5 4 8 12 20 6 4 8 11 19 7 4 7 11 18 8 3 7 10 17 9 3 6 10 16 10 3 6 9 15 11 3 6 8 14 12 3 5 8 13 13 2 5 7 12 14 2 4 7 11 15 2 4 6 10 16 2 4 5 9 Zeru
Favorable Winds not good? I don't know about that, it's always seemed useful as another buff stacker that's not a prep (and therefore canceled by barrage) and when you're using debil/distracting the half flight time is very helpful. Of course, it's really only useful when your team has more Rangers than the enemy which can be nearly all the time or rarely depending on your setup.
Zyuu
I guess bad was harsh, but fav winds is not good.. not worth a skill slot unless your team has at least 2 or 3 rangers (rare).. there are just so many more useful skills
ok.. straight up barrage build.. I implied the better choice in my other post but here you go basically u want superior marks, expertise and vigor, with a +1 marks mask. u want 4 in beastmastery, 14 expertise (14>>>>13 because of tf for this), and either 12, 15 or 16 in marksmanship, depending on your other attribute line barrage tiger's fury end of ranger skills for this purpose barrage is a great skill, not because it shines 100% of the time, but because its good in certain situations (certain altar fights) and a mediocre single target dmg skill with low recycle in others.... It also requires hardly any other skills to make it effective, thus opening up your skill options for other things such as distracting, debilitating, concussion shot, pin down, spirits, res or res sig, hex removal, enchantment removal, etc etc... it is also very light on energy, which enables u to use your other skills pretty much anytime they are needed another thing to consider is the elevation on the altar when u are attacking it, your dmg is reduced fairly significantly even by that tiny difference, while spell based dmg is not affected at all.. notice how u can barrage someone for 80-100 fairly often in other situations, but most barrage onto an altar will land for 50-65 ish by itself.. which is still pretty nice, but something to consider.. remember seed is often hidden somewhere and thats 32 health to everyone u just hit if u were to run a barrage type of build, it would probably be a good idea to have a necro or /necro with chilblains on your team.. and possibly some kind of area knockdown like earthquake or thunderclap Z
Scaphism
@Epi:
At first it looks like you're right about only needing 13 expertise to run 5 energy skills (I've done this myself while making builds.) Then you remember you run Tiger's Fury all the time, and it's a 10 energy skill before expertise. Barrage isn't a combo, it's a good skill. Barrage + Tiger's Fury is what makes this an excellent combo.
Shrapnel_Magnet
It's not ONLY the refire time that makes me like Half Moons and/or Shortbows over the Flatbow... it's the Arc/Trajectory.
Flatbow shoots nice and high, which is good for hitting a target who's standing still at a distance... but not good for shooting a target on the move. I used to find that if I wasn't running Read the Wind or similar, it was hard to hit people when using flatbows... however, this problem dissapeared with the Half Moon bow. I used to never be a big fan, but I'm a convert.
JYX
Fair enough, I've not tested this out so I wouldn't really know, just seems on paper the flight time dosen't have such an impact. I'll grab a Half Moon Bow then...also, is it just me or is the half moon bow and the shortbow exactly the same in terms of stats?
Zyuu: Barrage isn't amazing in all situations no. But look at it in terms of DPS, its not awful either. 42.75 DPS to anyone standing in range when using Barrage+Tiger's Fury+Judge's Insight+Favorable Winds, lets assume you're just targeting one person, an Illusionary Weaponry build can only muster 47.4 DPS to one person using IW and Frenzy. So while its not the best skill for all situations, its hardly bad either in any situation either. If I were just to use Barrage at 12 Marks and 4 Beastmastery this would mean a DPS of roughly 28.7. At the start basically I said I was looking for something to replace an AoE ele build. 28.7 DPS is not good enough for that purpose, 42.75 DPS is good enough. Although I have no doubts if I were to just take Tiger's Fury+Barrage I'll be a much more competent ranger for interrupts or conditions or spirits. I don't intend to make this build, I just wanted to know if a ranger using Barrage instead of your traditional AoE ele is possible, and having actually come up with a build which has no reason why it shouldn't work, I guess thats been answered. Another problem, spirit spamming, I have no experience in those at all, what are some useful spirits for a particular situation? I can see having everyone taking cold protection (in terms of armour/mantra) and then using winter, perhaps that is a viable counter to an air ele spike build. Fertile Season really requires high beastmastery to make it work, as does symbiosis...Other than that, I'm out of ideas with rituals. Anyone care to pitch in? Rajamic
Well, one of the big ones takes your Winter + Fur-Lined Armor and adds in Greater Conflagration + Dryder's Defenses (or with a Ra/Mes Mantra of Frost). Now all physical and elemental damage is cold, and you have 115 AL vs cold, which is about 38% of normal damage. Mantra of Frost would take another 45% off after that, making you damn-near invincible, and give you 1 mana every time you take an attack of most kinds (Holy, Mesmer, and most Nerco damage should still get through unaffected). With how little damage you'd be taking, you may as well throw in Frozen Soil. Not like you'll be dying anytime soon.
Quickening Zephyr should work good in a Spirit spamming team setup. Most people don't like it, but if you are using a group of rangers to spam the spirits, they won't care about the extra mana costs. Since Rangers don't have hexes and enchantments in their arsenal, Nature's Renewal would work in a spirit spam team as well. As far as Symbiosis, my El/Mo loves that one. I was using the Centaurs' spirits to my advantage, since I keep Vigorous Spirit on 3 team members at all times (it's a cheap enchant that lasts 30 seconds). Add in the long-lasting Aura of Restoration on myself, and that my main heal spell is Healing Breeze, and you get a lot of really high max HPs. Once I get him enough Earth/Protection spells to go Uber-protector with him, he'll like Symbiosis even more! Zyuu
ok first of all: if u are trying to prove a point with numbers u must say how u are obtaining the numbers, otherwise it is just a bunch of nonsense..
"Barrage isn't amazing in all situations no. But look at it in terms of DPS, its not awful either" never said it was awful, read my last post again. im saying JI and favorable winds are not worth taking on a ranger in -most- situations now let me see if I understand your argument barrage+tiger's fury is not good enough... and the reason given is it only does 28.7 dmg per sec.. compared to 42.75 dps with the alternative (JI+favorable)... the end. does this not sound incomplete? how did u obtain an average dps? does it factor in the cast time of JI? how about the time u missed a large group barrage opportunity while u were casting JI.. how about the time u went to hit tiger's fury but u only had 2 energy from a prolonged fight using JI on a single or double (optimistic) target? how about the critical hit chance and damage increase gained by lowering smiting for a higher marksmanship? lastly, obviously ji as well as favorable winds will increase your damage in a strike by strike comparison to not having them up, my point is that it is often inferior in other tombs matches aside from altar, and sometimes even in altar.. as u limit yourself to monk secondary, as well as smiting attribute, and all the other disadvantages mentioned in my last paragraph.. and previous post while barrage + tiger's fury is completely open, does comparable damage in my experience, and only takes two skill spots on your bar Z
JYX
I supplied the workings in my previous post. The numbers are basically the same apart from that I calculated the average effect of not having Tiger's Fury up all the time as a fraction of the damage given. Besides, the calculations were so simple...if you really cared you could've checked yourself in about a minute. Also I didn't calculate the 2 second casting time for Judge's Insight, as I expected there to be some sort of gap in the fight every 15 seconds. Also, take a second look, I supplied the attribute points that the calculations depended on, therein is your answer about whether I calculated the added boon to marksmanship if no smiting were to be taken. Also you only normally calculate casting times, breaks in a comparison of DPM.
Your feelings about Barrage being not as useful as other skills in certain tombs matches is right. But they apply to AoE spells in general. Here I was seeing if it was possible for something to replace the AoE elementalist using Barrage, whether AoE itself is an attribute worth having wasn't in question. But that seems to be where we're headed. Also in a previous post I put it to you that the chances of you hitting 2 people regularly and 1 person occasionally using Barrage was not that rare if you time yourself right. Obviously you didn't feel that way... My argument was that the purpose of this build was to replace an AoE ele. This is a particular job in our 8 man team. Of course we also want interrupters, whether ranger or warrior or mesmer, we want disruption and we want (maybe) degen or whatever floats your boat. We want those things aside from AoE. Now you seem to be saying that in essence this ranger would be better spent doing something else. Yeah thats true, AoE isn't high on my list. But if all other bases were covered...or a team really wanted to have this AoE capability, I wanted to be able to supply an alternative which was perhaps an improvement on the fire elementalist in terms of AoE damage. Look at your average pyromancer, all 8 of those skills are geared towards maintaining and dishing out his AoE damage. From what I've seen...we can compete with this using 4 skills from a ranger, whereas using just Barrage and Tiger's Fury falls short, thus, does not fit the AoE role in the 8 man squad the way a Pyromancer would. At no point was I discussing about rangers in general, I was trying to find a fairly unconditional AoE damage build using Barrage. The examples and ideas you raised are geared towards making him a better ranger, but a poorer nuker. Perhaps you would like to tell me what you think of Fire Elementalists, the way you slate AoE in general? Zyuu
I'm not denouncing barrage at all.. its a great skill, -by itself-
now I guess I just skipped that post when I saw DPS written all over it.. whoops. Really though, these kinds of calculations are futile when comparing such a short duration buff such as JI to something that lasts indefinately.. on top of a 2 second cast time, and 10 energy. I say that because of the reasons in my previous post barrage cant really match the ae damage of an ele within a short period of time, but as u said the more the ele is built for ae dmg, the better he becomes at ae. while the ranger is basically the same, while still being able to bring many other skills for different purpose now as for the calculations.. if u are going to do something like this u should use these formula http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...nics-id674.php if u did then ignore that, can't really tell as I dont have the time right now also im guessing this dps u are making is on a 60 armor target? "57/2 * 1.5" also you cant barrage every 2 seconds, im guessing thats what that 2 is, ideally you can barrage every 2.33 seconds with tiger's fury on i think, but then u neglected an extra normal attack by stopping it and using barrage without tiger's fury u can barrage every 3 seconds if u neglect the normal attacks in between how are you getting +10 from judge's insight? rough guess? running out of time, as for the ae suggestions, I can do it later, but u need to tell me how many of each profession u want to bring.. or I can just make something up arbitrarily try a nec with chilblains and 2 ele specing fire and/or earth use skills like earthquake, aftershock, meteor shower, phoenix, rodgort's.. but if u use that use it first as the cast time is rediculous..u can also consider /me for echo or arcane echo also u want them knocked down as long as possible (one of the main benefits of ele as an ae'r) to delay the healing Z
JYX
10 from Judge's Insight comes from my personal experience testing it by shooting people in arenas with a PvP char. Although it may as well be a rough guess from the randomness of the damages, for example, it appears to be more helpful against people with more armor. Also I think necros are meant to have it bad with Judge's Insight but I didn't find a necro in the arena to test it on. I would say 10 damage difference was an average of what I was seeing while I was there.
AoE damage as an elementalist relies entirely on the situation. For KoTH tombs matches for example, I would actually pick something like arcane echo meteor shower above searing heat/deep freeze/earthquake/aftershock. Echoed Phoenix is also a nice one, a quick 400+ damage at max fire if applied to the right target, but again situation dictates. Skills like earthquake/aftershock/searing heat/deep freeze are better, but have their own individual flaws, for example, earthquake would combo extremely well with aftershock if aftershock wasn't PBAoE. What I was trying to do here was to make something with less of those flaws, by approaching it from a different angle, high AoE DPS not burst damage. Judge's Insight for holy damage, less resistances/defenses against holy and Barrage. Problem here is...you really kind of need burst damage...because people tend to split up after the first volley... Why can we not use Barrage every 2 seconds normally? According to this certain bows can fire once every 2 seconds. If the best we can muster is once every 2.33 seconds...that really kinda screws up the entire idea. How many I want to bring?...None. I don't intend on running AoE builds in its current (quite frankly poor) state. But if you got any wonderful and original suggestions on how to dish out big and unconditional AoE damage, I'd love to hear it.
Epinephrine
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scaphism
@Epi:
At first it looks like you're right about only needing 13 expertise to run 5 energy skills (I've done this myself while making builds.) Then you remember you run Tiger's Fury all the time, and it's a 10 energy skill before expertise. Barrage isn't a combo, it's a good skill. Barrage + Tiger's Fury is what makes this an excellent combo. Well, it depends on how you do it I guess - since Tiger's Fury is the only 10 cost skill running, and you use it every 10 seconds or so you are talking about a difference of one energy each time, for a difference of at most 6 energy per minute - that's pretty small. You then have to decide if 0.3 of a pip of energy saved justifies an attribute level from 13 to 14. I really think it depends on the build. Would that attibute be better served elsewhere? You have at least a 10 base to get a 14, probably more (I don't picture the 3+1 being on Expertise), so you are freeing up say 16 attribute points; depending on what else you have around you can at least extend your tiger's fury by a second, possibly adding to your buffing line and so on. The extra second of TF doesn't add a ton, an extra shot every 40 seconds (about 3.7% increase in DPS), so it isn't a huge deal, but 16 attribute points (or 20?) could buff your other line as well. I've run some numbers, it doesn't look like a huge improvement, but you can up your damage output by 8% or so while bumping your energy use up marginally (0.5 pips), or bump your damage up 4% or so while only using 1/10th of a pip more energy (by extending the duration of JI for example you reduce the costs associated with its maintenance, while shifting the ratio of JI/non-JI time as well), depending on build. I find so long as I am well geared up I am not short on energy unless targetted with energy sapping hexes/spells. I was just pointing out that saying flat out that 14 is the number you want can be shortsighted, it does matter what your build is. Zyuu
everous... pretty good post, I agree with just about all of it
nothing wrong with rough guesses, my entire argument is based on them in a way. but if you are using figures, guesses are less convincing.. btw u can just compare them based on a 60 armor target and apply the 20% to that and come out with some situational numbers.. but thats not very helpful imo well u can generalize ae damage into two categories... 1) flat out kill, either before monks can react or rendering them unable in the process and 2) withering ae damage for taking a toll over time on monk energy.. obviously good in combination with energy denial. thats why i highly recommend debilitating if u bring barrage barrage falls under 2 no matter what you do with it.. my point is its a great skill to contribute to ae, but its best left to ele to do direct damage ae. basically, u bring barrage, tiger's fury, have 6 open slots for other situations where ae is not so effective or w/e else, but when ae would be useful, u can contribute decently also. that is the strength of barrage barrage is at least 2.33.... seconds because a normal attack with the fastest bow is 2 seconds. with tiger's fury on that goes down to 1.33.... seconds, and barrage has a 1 second recycle (applied after the shot is fired), allowing you to barrage at intervals of 2.33... seconds (since it will be another 1.33 till you actually fire it the second time) also note that if u do so u negate the majority of 1 normal attack by using barrage as soon as the recycle is done, since u start a new attack while barrage is under recycle, so 1 second of a 1.33 second attack is cancelled when u barrage again.. depending if there is more than 1 target, this may or may not be worth it lastly, ae will always be conditional in the sense that you need a group of enemies close enough together to hit them all with damage. the challenge is to either make them stay together or to devastate them enough while they are together that it was worth the resources to bring ae in the first place a good way to keep them together is ae knockdown skills, and skills like ward of foes to a lesser extent.. obviously a ranger can't do this by himself, and that is a big reason why ele is necessary for many effective ae based strategies, and why ranger is better at simply contributing than being the ae force oh and also, 14 expertise can go a long way with the use of tiger's fury, as well as other 10 energy skills such as penetrating attack, debilitating shot, etc it saves a lot of energy in those cases, which are quite often since they are such great skills also if u are in tombs, u should use 3 superiors (expertise, marks, and vigor), minor beastmastery, minor wilderness.. it helps tremendously and doesn't affect rangers much since they have 70 armor as well as 30 elemental resist on their armor.. not to mention hardly anyone targets rangers unless the team the ranger is on lost already Z tmtracy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Everous
I'm looking for a ranger that can spam barrage. Just Barrage, pure barrage user, basically I'm looking for something that can take over an Ele in the department of AoE nuking.
At first I started thinking ranger/mo with judge's insight, barrage, tiger's fury and favorable winds. This way he can keep the zealous string, would need less expertise to get along, and do awesome damage in 1 go. But...this didn't work out on the builder, I had to put points into Expertise, Beast Mastery, Marksmanship and Smiting. ...Looked at the possibility of using a ranger with conjure...that was even worse. All the problems and none of the advantages. So, I think I'm gonna have to come to some sort of settlement on this one. First of all: Is having Tiger's Fury on permenantly worth it? I'm investing 10 points into beastmastery for this one skill...how much in terms of damage does it actually increase. I know it means 50% more damage for normal attacks, but...how does that work when you're spamming barrage? I'm having trouble getting my head round this one. Can we simply assume that if its on half the time its 25% more damage? If so then I think we'd be better off dropping it altogether and shoveling the points into our other skills. Is Judge's Insight worth it? The thing costs 10 energy to recast should the enchantment be removed, and it really dosen't last very long anyway. How much of a boost in damage does it give anyway? Is it more or less than a conjure? I just want to say that 8 + 1 is enough for tiger fury, unless you want a 10 second fury, then do 8 + 3 but I dont think its worth it. =) just do 8 + 1
Falconer
Epinephrine has the right of it... For a nature ritual/barrage type build... I typically only do 13 expertise, even with tiger's fury.... For a skill I'm only using once every 10s the difference between 5 and 4 energy is minimal... especially when by and large my entire skill bar is 2 energy skills.. and I guarantee I have a zealous as well as +5 vampiric bow to barrage with to alternatively augment energy regen, or augment damage if my energy is riding high.
Those points spent on 9->10 point attribute are better spent augmenting your elemental line and upping your conjure damage, or upping your marksmanship for more +dam. It's mostly a matter of taste and experience... how much expertise do you need to be effective... and can those points be spent better elsewhere. Also people have it right... you can only barrage once every ~2.5s. Even with tiger's fury. If you just spam barrage the button, with a normal halfbow... you'll end up 'double pumping' and breaking the attack animation to fire the next barrage. If you're using tigers fury... you'll be completely wasting the barrage if that's all you do. Really, a long or composite bow is the perfect speed to barrage constantly... you can spam the button without breaking the attack animation. Hornbows do decently also with their slightly slower rate... but they have that 10% armor piercing extra damage also. If I do bring tiger's fury in a barrage build. It's so that I can get an alternating attack sequence going with a shortbow. EG: barrage, penetrating, barrage, hunters, barrage, penetrating, barrage.. at this point the tigers end... and hunters is roughly ready again. The point is every other attack is an AoE barrage, and my designated target is taking damage ranger type dedicated damage. Also. as a barrage ranger... in a team... it's FAR FAR better to have someone else cast JI on you rather than doing it yourself. JI doesn't last long enough, and at 10 energy (short of a zealous string and decent AoE) is hard to keep going. JI at 15s is effectively a 10 energy prep which you don't get an expertise bonus on. Also wherever people get this figure of 50% better damage for using tigers. They're on crack... it's a 33% attack speed increase so if nothing else changes (let alone your bow attacks don't recycle faster even though you're attacking faster) and most people only spec it enough to get 7 or 8 seconds out of 10... it normally ends up only being a 25% damage increase. Also the final bit is that a barrage ranger is something I like to joking refer to as a 'full-time firestorm'. Yes elementalists can do more faster... but they can't do it CONSTANTLY and INDEFINATELY. A barrage ranger is a stresser element in a team gameplan... EG: to keep doing moderately high sustained damage which someone has to deal with. The skill stands well on it's own as well... I'd definately consider barrage in any ranger build where I didn't already have an elite and wasn't using preperations... +12 to 15 damage for 5 energy base cost on a 1s fast recycle... I'm all there... especially since it's AoE... build depending I'll take it over punishing shot for sure. Non-buffed your barrages should be in the 40-50 damage regime every 2 to 2.5s sustained... compare to 22 damage every second from a firestorm or maelstrom which can't move as the target moves.
JYX
Quote:
Originally Posted by Falconer
Also wherever people get this figure of 50% better damage for using tigers. They're on crack... it's a 33% attack speed increase so if nothing else changes (let alone your bow attacks don't recycle faster even though you're attacking faster) and most people only spec it enough to get 7 or 8 seconds out of 10... it normally ends up only being a 25% damage increase.
I was under the impression that the 33% faster attack speed applied to the actual attack animation, not the frequency of the attacks, in the case of something like Frenzy it means 33% faster attack translated into 50% more damage.
Green_Lantern
well, tigers fury or frenzy with barrage sounds really nice - there's a problem however, if you're using a shortbow, you will shoot faster than barrage regenerates. So it will basicaly be Barrage + Normal shot + Barrage, all the time. So if youre going with this, use a slower bow. Or take a shortbow and spare the pts in beast mastery.
Falconer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackace
Falconer also hit a good point: Dont make a R/Mo for JI. Let someone else cast the JI on you while you go R/E and boost your DPS with a Conjure X. Barrage also gets the benefit of triggering multiple cases of hexes that trigger on physical damage.
No my point on the 33% attack speed increase is that with the attack rate increased and it's typical 70% utilization time if you use it religiously.... In normal usage it seems the boost is roughly 25% IN PRACTICE. Or they don't have enough skill attacks to handle the faster attack rate... so what would be entirley skill attacks without tigers end up having a few normal shots in the mix.
The other bit won't work at all. JI requires physical damage... you can't pair it with a conjure. And similarly it won't trigger something like mark of pain if it's holy damage (which would be some sick AoE damage if you could trigger all 3 at once). In fact, I've noticed that conflagration will short circuit judges insight as well. If you do this, just bring more skill attacks and find other skills to up your damage. Best thing you can do is just pump out damage best you can in a +damage format (so that the bonus damage gets added and also get the JI bonus, something like kindle or ignite won't get any benefit from JI). |
