Every class has energy management built in.....except the monk

I'd have to say that that's a strange way to look at it. They have the best negative damage output (healing) and I think their energy management issues only come up when they are trying to match the damage output of multiple opponents. One on one the monk can take it.

As for the statement that monks are limited to being protective or healing, that's not really accurate either - they are anti-conditions, anti-hex - they can heal a player while smiting the hex off them, heal while dealing with the conditions (spells), pump up their allles' damage while healing them (DF plus buffs), deal damage to the enemy while healing their allies (ZF). You can build them to be the condition guard/hex guard (an anti necro), to work as an anti monk (scourge healing) to boost damage ouput and donate energy to your companions (Balthazar's spirit, Succor, Judge's Insight).

I haven't spent a lot of time playing, but wouldn't a monk/necro solve a few issues with energy manangement, etc? I don't monger stats or have my spreadsheet of matricies of numbers around myself, but if necro's can steal energy and can deal damage, wouldn't that be a good match for those who feel "niched" as healers only? Who knows, maybe I will spend the 2 hours downloading the latest client of GW next Friday to see how that combo fairs in solo...

Correct me if I am way off, but don't all classes still get the ability to weild melee or ranged weapons? Although you aren't getting buffed by melee "spells" you can still buff up with protection spells so what you don't cause in damage you make up in time in the forray.

well - the thing is, there are ways to make monks into offensive attackers. using smiting etc. can make a passable (not great) attacker. However, the reason primary monks are always healers is not because they are crap at everything else, but that they ARE SO MUCH BETTER at healing than any other character in the game to a ridiculous level. They get targeted so much in PvP, that if they aren't healing, people dont want them in the party because the other char classes can do offensive better.

- and in terms of balance - each character has a skill it excels at.
Warrior - Tanking, Melee
Ranger - Ranged damage, Pet (pve)
Elementalist - Stupid amounts of AoE
Mesmer - disrupt casters
Necro - screw warriors
Monk - Healing

It so happens that monks are the only truly defensive char class, so a lot of people think they are crippled. GW is a team game, and having a primary healing monk can keep your TEAM alive for way longer, giving out much more damage therefore, than an offensive monk. If monks were good at offensive as well, everyone would be one. (sorry for the rant)

In top-tier competitive play, there isn't any variety period. You won't see a elementalist/warrior tank, you won't see a ranger/warrior tank, you won't see a DOT mesmer. Every class will eventually go back to it's original solid purpose. Ranger snipe, warriors melee, mesmer domination, blah blah blah.

The game isn't that balanced, everyone knows that. But it's fun anyways, and by far more balanced then any other game you can call right now.

Your right, only 3/6 classes are primary rooted. Necros are purely secondary rooted, and ele/mesmer can be somewhat versatile. But even then, more teams will probably pick mo/ over ele/mo unless theres a specific build or strategy to it. Same with mes/ele for nuking.

3/6 is still 50%. Add to the fact that necros don't count, and I'm sure I'm pretty much correct.

Obviously you haven't competed in top-tier(or as much as there is with the game in beta) GW PvP. Among the top guilds, I've seen a huge variety in builds- I got DoT's put on me, saw melee rangers, necromancer/monk protection healers, etc. The Fianna tend to use Rangers as trappers, not snipers, lots of mesmers at the top level use illusion magic rather than domination magic, etc. I've seen Elementalists that can tank far better than Warriors, but a "Tank" isn't really a good type of character for PvP, other than possibly as a Rezzer. Other players intelligent and will aim for your weak targets, not sit there and attack your warriors while your monks keep them alive. Warriors are good for damage-dealers and can make great rezzers since it's very difficult to take them out, and most mesmers don't sit there waiting for a warrior to cast a spell with an interrupt ready.

I have seen very little similarity between top builds- even when comparing KOR and n0, who pretty much dominated the ladder this last BWE. Roles are not nearly as static as you are thinking, and there's hundreds and thousands of different possibilities in top builds.

A coach hasn't played the world cup before, so he automatically knows nothing. Good assumption.

Top guilds =! Top tier. My posts are all ideally speaking, and are not accurate reflections of the current metagame. If this confuses you, it's fault on my part.

I never said DoT mesmers didn't exist. I said when you see mesmers, mostly they tend to stick to the lockdown/IW type. Lockdown more I think. Don't tell me in the current metagame, you get more conjure phantasms put on you then backfire/energy burn.

So you see variety, and that's how a new game/beta goes. People try things. But even in this forum, nearly everyone has agreed that necro primary has no use. So unless you can somehow magically make things die like Tuon said people can, their just trying it out, that doesn't mean it was effective. Perhaps the necro/mo's build didn't revolve around divine favour, and there was a type of armour for the necro that gave a wee bit more then monk. That's not even a valid arguement then.

I know, and guess where they landed this BWE. I also stated that classes stick to their primary purpose, so unless traps are for necros, this only supports my arguement.

And they were lockdown, not pip killers. Maybe a combination of both, but I doubt they were just there to kill you. So it's another form of lockdown, hooray. Same role.

You mean the earth ele? Yeah, they can tank better then warriors, but then again, so can monks. Both provided by the fact that mesmers don't squish them. Like you said, a "tank" isn't a good type of character for PvP. Warrior/Monks are losing their monk line of skills more and more because the metagame has evolved where the warrior is targetted last, so you might as well not use that mending enchantment and spam more power attacks. I don't see a point in this, since it doesn't contribute to PvP, which is what I care about in this discussion. PVE has it's own line of abuse, it's called zealots fire.

Which is why more and more people choose to be war/eles or anything that takes advantage of Victory is Mine! This move just might make it from flavour of the month to cookie cutter!

Didn't they say when KOR and n0 fought in the n0 article, that n0 had 1 more monk, but 1 less ranger? And lost? They said they even changed their build a second time, and made counters, but lost due to coordination. I'm confused.

Mmmm, maybe, but I've played enough competitive games to see that it'll eventually narrow down. The metagame evolves with time, so there won't be any creativity without new yet balanced expansions. Name me one rpg type game that has even come close to achieve this variety/balance so to speak. I'm looking at this from a realistic point of view. I did not say I know the cookie cutter, only that there will be. In the current metagame though, roles are very rarely exchanged. A ranger sniper will mostly carry conjure. A lockdown mesmer will most likely be domination based. A sword warrior will have victory is mine. Some of these flavours will pass in time, but some will be cookie cutters, and set in stone.

As long as the games not extremely balanced, variety will eventually die out. This has happened to every other game in history, Guild Wars is no exception. The only game that has enough variety for everything yet is balanced might be starcraft, but even that I doubt.

ArenaNet only promised that every class would have a way to recover health.

Personally, I like this system better. It makes classes more unique than if they could all do the same tasks. What is the solution to a Monk's energy concerns? Play a mesmer and go inspiration. Really, there is no cocern at all with the duel class system.

Or, to not rely on the time it takes to cast inspiration spells without fast casting, a monk could choose the elementalist primary and focus exclusively on monk skills. You'd lose divine favor then, but gain the ability to make many heals before depleting your reserves and moves to manage your energy.

If you're looking for a perfect class, WoW has is the game for you. GW is the most balanced of any game I've seen. I assume that this post is addressing balance primarily, so I hope that the above comments have put some of your issues to rest.

And while I'm spouting opinions, I agree with an above poster that cookie-cutters are inevitable. BUT, GW has enough variety to keep fresh lists coming, so at least we'll keep getting more cookie cutters over time. It is also important to note that cookie cutters will eventually extend to teams because this is such a team-based game, so I think originality and potential will be preserved indefinitely.

Hopefully that memory does not involve Mind Wrack?

Didnt get to read everything... but...

If a monk have good energy management... the world of GW will be over run by monk easily, as it was already hard enough to kill anyone under a monk watch without much energy management... (yes yes, I know all other factor like mesemer and stuffs... spare me the details, not now)

YOu play 2 classes, dont you?

In any major game, it's the healers that set the pace of the gameplay. The endurance of the group. As long as there is healing, there is life, combat. If you allow too much meddling with the pace of the healing, you get a game that is impossible to balance. You got to keep the monks at a reasonable level of mana regen..?

Look at BIP; Necro pouring his elite into energy generation for a monk only, shows the huge value of more healing power. Because it shifts that base level ability of the group upwards.

Believe me, the one trapper in our build isn't why we did poorly this past BWE.

Aside from that, I pretty much agree with your point with one exception: Balanced games do exist. While cookie-cutters will appear in any game like this, I spent 9 years playing a PK MUD that was very nicely balanced.

arnt monks the target of allmost all oposing warriors?

2 of the greatest energy management skills in the game imo when your under attack, these two enchants (just having one on you) will net you anywhere from 3-10 energy per second when you have a few ppl gang banging you. and as a monk, expect to get gang banged !

also, cast essence bond on the party memeber that is the target if it is not you, the extra incoming energy will far outweigh the 1 pip of energy degeneration.

It looks like Essence Bond is vastly inferior compared to Bal's Spirit, either they actually make having Smiting points matter, or buff Bal's Spirit before slapping it with the good ol' elite tag.

Edit: Actually ignore that, just realise that the 'target' in Essence would be the enemy.