Why do Signets of Capture cost skill points?

If you would open up your views, you would realise it is more than possible to run both, you simply cannot capture all skills using SoC there are not enough Boss type creatures to cover the entire skill base, so trainers would still be of use and an important part of the game.

Not all Elite skills are so sweet, infact the majority are just good skills which have been limited to 1 only per mission. Just because you have a few elite skills doesn't make you any better than another player. Infact the only Elite Skill I have found that is actually Elite is the monk spell Mark of protection, basically gives invincibility for 10 seconds and all damage turns into healing. The rest are good skills nothing more.

Good post, finally a genuine reply that wasn't just trying to be clever or padantic.

If you care to check (since we all love the guy who says "you aren't reading my posts") my point was way back up ^ there. Here's the digest version: Guild Wars wants you to play the game. Guild Wars will not abolish systems that encourage players to spend hours playing the game. They may streamline systems but they will not willingly introduce functionality that gets you from start to done in sixty seconds.

As you say, look at the patch notes. See how they've limited the ability to ascend to 20? See how they've limited farming? As you've admitted, PvE characters are potentially more powerful in PvP than PvP characters. So tell me, why would Guild Wars want you to be able to create the ultimate PvP character with little or no effort? If Signets of Capture did not cost skill points, players wouldn't need to play the game; they'd simply need to run around and capture skills. Why would ArenaNet want that? The game designers have said time and time again they do what they can to remove "grinds" and tedium from gameplay. Why would they implement a system that rewards players who choose to go out and capture 750 skills? Doesn't it seem like they might want to *not* do that?

So you asked a question: Why do Signets of Capture cost skill points. That question has been answered multiple times. If you aren't satisfied by the answers, so be it. Needless to say you aren't the head of game development at ArenaNet, and whomever is has seen fit that Signets of Capture cost a skill point. Perhaps it's time to close this thread?

Alas Phaedrus it seems we will agree to disagree. As you seem to think that,

A, capturing 750 skill, would take sixty seconds. Perhaps in a time machine.

B, There is no ultimate PvP build, but you seem to beleive there is.

C, Alas the current system actually leads to grind, and you see only negatives rather than positives.

D, I may not be a developer, but neither are you, but it is through post such as these that GW's actually improves, so to knock a contructive thread is rather silly to say the least. I would even say that it is due to threads like this that are appearing on GW Forums across the board which are actually leading to changes. Some of the actual points raised within this very thread have been read by the developers and have been addressed in the latest Patch and I would hope that this also happens in the future.

Phaedrus, if you look just a couple posts ahead of yours you'll notice this:

So going into explorable areas, fighting your way to the boss and capturing about one useful skill at a time is not "playing the game"? But doing all that PLUS grinding for xp is "playing the game"? Please explain.

Sure it does.
1. Rune Trader makes it easier to get runes for your player.

Result: People are able to make their builds more interesting through increased attribute points, sometimes at the expense of health.

2. Rare item drop rates go up making it easier to get better weapons/items.

Result: More trade, more weapon customizing, more experimentation with item/weapon combinations

3. Signet of Capture doesn't cost a skill point

Result: Instead of just buying a skill, people go out and explore and try to capture skills from bosses, people experiment with skills they wouldn't otherwise have wasted a skill point on translating to more diverse builds. People avoid doing a part of the game the majority of the community finds tedious.

I don't have a problem paying a skill point to capture an elite skill. I said this before and although it's not what I want, it's a compromise I'm willing to accept. I do have a problem paying a skill point to capture a normal skill for many reasons....consistency being foremost.

If a quest can reward you with a skill (sans skillpoint) then doing the exact same thing with a SoC should yield the exact same result. Additionally, I pay skill points to be taught a skill that I never forget. Everyone agrees that the Signet of Capture is a skill, so I should never forget how to capture a skill once I pay a skill trainer to teach me. That said, another acceptable compromise would be only being charged once for the SoC and, quoth the raven, nevermore!

The argument of burnout assumes something that is rather implausible -- namely that everyone can instantly capture all the skills in the game. If someone wanted to make this their goal, it's a game in and of itself and should be rewarded based on the amount of time it would take. You know as well as I do how much effort goes into the actual process of capturing skills so don't argue that removing the SoC skill point requirement equates to Unlock All Skills instantly. We both know that isn't the case.

What do you think I started this thread for? How many times have I asked for someone to demonstrate the harm to the game or community? The only answer I've heard is "it will cause burnout". Obviously I think that's not going to happen along with the scores of other doomsday prophesies anytime someone suggests decreasing the grind.

Ahh, the third stifler. Honestly, I thought you'd be above this but once again, someone attempts to stifle discussion instead of bowing out gracefully themself. Must be a disease. Get well soon buddy.

Thanks for being clear on the points. I was a big fan of NOT removing skill points for the signets, but you make it sound pretty fair. However the "not consistent" isn't really 100% accurate is it? I mean, currently it works both ways...certain skills are rewarded or purchased with skill points. For example, I can purchase the signet of rez. when I get to the searing and didn't have a buddy to adventure with in pre-searing. So purchasing signets of capture is indeed consistent with that. Its just not consistent with rewarded skills.

I'm a believe that nothing that has been released as an update has made the game any easier, just different. People often confuse "easy" with "different" it seems. Paying for a rune isn't really "easier" then finding a rune... its just different. A person may have a better chance of finding a rune then they do of being able to afford one in many cases. Does it make it easier? No, just different.

Humans have a problem with change. Often times change is good, especially if its dirty underwear.

CodeMonkey

SoC is not a skill. It can be considered as a blank page in your spell/skill book. Once you've inscribed a skill on this blank page, you'll need a new blank page for another skill.

Sure it is, its a skill that allows you to capture another skill and instantly replace it.

If it appears in your _skill bar_, it must be a skill yes? Everything else in my skill bar seems to be a skill.

Or, if you wish, once you capture something then it takes a skill point, but in that case now you could have signets of capture but you can't capture anything because you bought it, and then later found you had 0 skill points to use... that would make me more upset then spending that skill point initially on the signet of capture.

CodeMonkey

Buying skills vs doing skill quests are two rather different processes that don't need to be consistent. A quest forces you to go out and do something be it find an item/body, kill a boss or group with one other person. Buying a skill doesn't require you to do anything except have the gold and the skill point....which I'm fine with.

Buying the skill, Signet of Capture however isn't consistent with either scenario. It isn't consistent with buying any other skill because you instantly forget the skill once you use it. It isn't consistent with skill quests because you're charged a skill point for doing the exact same thing as many quests force you to do...sometimes more.

Well put. I'm afraid of change as much as the next guy....I put off getting the latest update for fear that even more areas would be nerfed. Had I accepted it, that superior vigor rune I ID'd would have salvaged into something better than 2 leather squares. Mine was a valid fear though based on prior updates.....what is the fear of making SoC's skill-point free?

All "skills", once you've learned them, they permanently stay. Are you getting the same thing with SoC?

First fear: bugs. The initial attempt to stop people from farming caused other bugs. Why fix something that's not broken?

Game Dynamics:

Changing a feature that has something to do what the skill point system can, and may alter how players do things. And the game was _tested_ with skill points in these areas, and changing that may impact other things in the game. For example, it might make people hold back buying skills from skill trainers because they can go hunt for them later. That means that there is a slight influx of gold in the hands of PC's because they're not burning it on skills. Is that a problem? Don't know yet, but it can impact how ANET expects the game balances to play out.

Secondly, holding out on skills may or may not impact the difficulty of areas. You may get "pwned' more in missions because you refuse to pay for a few key skills because ya know you can get them for free later.

Thirdly, there can be a dramatic influx in skill point hoarding, now folks may be a higher level and have 50 free skill points because they got all the rest for free using SoC's. Now when ANET releases new areas, and updates they have to be concerned with skills. As of now people may get low on skill points, so they will hold back for "just the best" skills (in their opinion anyway), and adding 5 new skills in a future release goes from an ascended character picking 1 of 5 because they have a few points, to just sucking up all 5 since they've got 50+ points to burn on it. Now you end up with folks going "only 5 new skills in the new release? What gives" instead of "wow, those 5 new skills look awesome, I took <blah> and <blah> because they looked to be the best for my character."

Does any of the game dynamics change for better or for worse? Well the easiest way to tell is to alter them in a patch and wait for the bitch/moan/complain threads to start up. I am not sure either way, but I'm trying to get the point across that "it won't change anything" is the attitude of those that have never had input in game design mechanics, or had to write a product specification for something. You do not realize what a small change can do to a product with potentially hundreds of thousands of customers until you do the "do dilligence" of sitting down and figuring out all aspects upon which the skills system touches.

CodeMonkey

Point 1, very valid, in a industry that is renowned for breaking more than they fix, this is a possibility.

On the Game dynamic's front, I cant honestly see it making that great a difference, Some skills can be captured with SoC and some cant, But I do see your point. But on the other hand, with a cap of 200 points and the basic skills of each proffession being free, you still would not have enough points to unlock all skills, but you could unlock a good selection for different secondary classes with relative ease. For expansions they can easily increase the skill point cap which would be a more viable option then level increase.
TBH most players save there skill points after there first character / run through the game so it wouldn't have that great an impact.

On your second point, well thats the players choice and they do that anyway. (answered points 1 and 3 above )

They always look at the bitch / moan / praise threads after a patch. The day after patch day, reps from A.net trawl all the Elite GW site's forums.

Shadow Avenger:

A, You're inferring this. I'm saying your proposal makes it faster to capture all skills rather than have to earn skill points for each subprofession.

B, Not so, you're putting words in my mouth. I said unlocking all skills on one PvE character gives you access to a potentially more powerful PvP character. Expediting this process seems counter to the goals of a game company who wants people to spend time in their game and wants longevity in the market.

C, Saying something doesn't make it so. Playing the game in and of itself is a grind. Your proposal only offers the chance to grind a different way. You'll still have to earn exp, you'll still have to earn gold. You'll still have to find items, and the only "change" I can perceive is a new kind of leech being added to an already-infested community.

D. Right, but this thread is deceptive. It didn't so much offer a position as ask people to attack it. People have. Those who are in favor of the "proposal", which is really just a question, aren't defending their position, they're simply attacking the opposing position.

HH-

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's a boss for every "build" of creature, yes? So every ability any npc uses can be captured. While this may not encompass all 750 skills, this is also true questing for non-elites. As more content is added, we are seeing more skill quests. Does it not stand to reason we will see more varied npcs?

Granamyr:

If you take a bar with seven signets of capture and resurrect, are you playing? If your guildies are power-dragging you to capture skills, are you playing? Right now it's a part of the game to get a group together to go skill-hunting. This assumes you're going to go out and capture one, two skills max before you turn back to switch out skills. If you start to encourage free-range capping what stops players from taking four signets? Six? Not only will you have professional groups going out to save themselves skill points so they can spend the least number of points on purchasing skills they may not be able to cap, but you'll also see a dramatic increase in the number of community members people complain about. We already have the guy who disconnects after capping one skill. Now you'll have the guy who doesn't even help fight--he just caps seven skills (which he may not even be able to use effectively to aid the party) then leaves. You can't weed him out pre-emptively. You can't examine his skill bar before you enter a mission. If you want a reason not to do it, there's one. I have yet to see either you or Shadow Avenger defend this.

1. This has also opened the door for the 300-hp level 20 elementalist who has three superior runes on because he can afford them. That works in the Underworld, I promise.

2. In the sort term, yes. In the long-term the market is flooded and items will need to be re-balanced, otherwise everyone will have a set of "godly" weapons and new players will be outclassed by being poor and having to spend months "grinding" to catch up.

3. See above. Some players will continue to use Signets of Capture in a thoughtful and group-friendly manner. Others will not. The only way I can think of to combat the problem of these players is to limit the number of signets to one per bar...which means more grinding, which defeats the purpose of your proposal. So, how do you combat that? Why should a feature be implemented that is so obviously abusable and will only cause more frustration in an already-frustrated playerbase?

Signet of Capture isn't Inspired Hex/Enchantment. It isn't Arcane Thievery. It is permanently replaced. If you want to use those abilities you can stock them and save yourself the hassle of worrying about signets of capture.

In this you are correct, but again...see problem with "pro" skill-cappers. That is my fundamental problem with this system: the player who *does* want to capture all skills in the game and isn't advertising that fact.

I thought I have, but I still have yet to see it addressed.

You're on fire, says the flame-baiter. I'm all for argument and discussion, but that's not what this thread has evolved into. I've seen many people answer the original question *and* propose side-effects more fleshed-out than "burnout imminent, evacuate game!" I wonder why you haven't? I suggested closing the thread because I suspect you (and others) don't want to see those points, which is why you've so studiously not seen them as of yet.

[ ]

Phaedrus you are the one who goads flames, others Reply.
I have tried to avoid flames, and if my answers are sharp at times, they are in response to similarly posts.
Your posts, Leech infested, etc they only make you look like a Elitest. Infact the majority of your post come across like this, as though its your game and everyone else is stupid or wrong. I agree with you on some of your posts, but the way you post them does not always inspire a positive response.
Code Monkey post his opinions and does not offend or cause flames. Occationally someone trys to get clever about his posts, but he deals with it well.
We all post ' angry' at times, and to be honest it is better not to post when angry as it often makes the poster look as fool and cause anger in others and thats how posts turn bad.
Alas Phaedrus it seems we will agree to disagree.
This is not ment as a personal insult, but hopefully constructive critism.

I see where your coming from, I'm just not 100% convinced that the change will come without some ramifications (besides bugs). I'm a software developer and I've seen many sales engineering requests cross my desk that are "inventive" but there is always risk associated with them outside of simply bugs. I really don't know if it would effect game dynamics by much, as it would require some type of experiementation or closed door testing to be sure.

It might just be that I'm a fan of keeping limitations or costs on such things to make them seem more "valuable" for when your low on them. I.e. if you only have x number of points, and x+20 number of options it forces you to make more open minded decisions and make those skills seem or valuable then just buying 'em all up and calling it good.

But, to the point, I cannot say ye or nea on the risk vs. reward. I just know that the "it won't effect anything" type of response is just causing bad karma for when they find out "oops, I was wrong" later

CodeMonkey

I am somewhat of an elitist. I'll be clear about that.

I did my time helping people learn the game. I've taught dozens of people how to do missions, bonuss, how to stack effective builds for their professions. I've taught people strategies for winning PvP, how to get the most out of bad groups, and even taught monks I shouldn't have how to manage their energy. I've enjoyed doing so, but I do so only when I want to.

I don't owe it to any player to hold his hand through the game. I don't owe it to any player to stroke his ego over an ersatz performance. I don't owe it to any player to help him round out his skill collection, tell him how to use his skills, or tell him how to work his class.

On the other hand, I do owe it to every player not to ruin the game for them. I owe it to every player to be respectful of his or her gaming experience, and I strive for that. As I stated in another thread, I never abuse my role as a healer. If I have a personality conflict with someone in the group I'll do my best to just let it go.

I can't apologize for being elitist in that way. I also can't apologize for calling players who join missions to cap from a boss and then abandon "leeches". They exist. They piss players off. They're a dredge on the Guild Wars community. I am a horrible a person for identifying them, but I can't help that.

Now don't get me wrong--I get where you're coming from: removing the need to run exp for skill points makes the game more immediately fun/accessible/whatever. I don't want the game to be fast, nor do I want it to be easy. I want it to take time. If you want to "finish" a character to completion, why should that take a week or two? I want ArenaNet to stay in business. I want to play Guild Wars for a very long time. I don't want them to install systems and policies that speed everyone to the end where stagnation and boredom occur.

What I owe most to all players is to offer more than a short-sighted "wouldn't it be neat-o if we had mounts and could fly and didn't need skill points and could unlock all our Barbie clothes without any effort" opinion. Sure new classes would be nice, but we don't need them now. Let them take some time and work without sweeping major changes. As for signets of capture not costing skill points...it offers just as many problems as it seemingly solves. I still don't see any solutions to what would happen should that system be implemented.

Responses don't have to be positive to be informative. I take offense when people move from civil discourse to snarky bitch-fest whether or not they aimed it at me. If people want to be coy and catty, fine. But please, don't say condescension is unattractive after stooping to it yourself.

[ ]

Granamyr, you have no argument here. The SoC system makes perfect sense. You can either go capture a skill by using the SoC at the expense of 1 skill point and some gold, or you can buy it at the skill trainer for 1 skill point and a lot more gold with a huge ramp up in cost. Either way, you're getting a new skill, and either way, you're gonna need to spend a skill point. All this crap about "but if im buying an SoC, why doesn't it stay on my skill bar after I use it" is nonsense. You buy a skill (in this case the SoC), and end up with a skill (in this case a skill of your choice). More work at the expense of a lower price, makes perfect sense. No argument at all.

Sure, I don't like the skill point system, and I wish we could get an UAS button, but this proposition of making the SoC cost zero skill points is garbage. I'm gonna have to go through every mission and every boss again, just to capture the rest of my skills. And make it cost 5 plat? It's probably more time-efficient to just do FoW/UW missions and get skill points than it is to find a good farming spot, find a way to overcome all the crap arenanet has been placing to fend off farmers, and sell that farmed stuff for gold. If you're gonna make the SoC cost no skill points, then just get rid of skill points for good. Else, you're trading one boring activity with an even more mind-numbingly boring activity.

Increase the Skill point Cap to 350 or 400.
Have every skill captured, learned from a trader, or gained through a quest cost a skill point.
Now, Have SoC work the same way as questing for skills. They don't require you to have a spare skill point, but actually add to your total skill points used.
Why , because you are in effect questing to capture skills, the only difference is that you don't get a NPC telling you to KIll x boss and rewarding skills, you are rewarded skills for the kill using SoC.

Trainers require you to have a skill point as the current system. Simply because it is impossible to capture all skills from Boss's as there isn't enough of them.

Currently Skills that you gain through questing do not add to you skill points, only skills purchased or gained through SoC.

Basically change it so that all skills so they used up skill points.
With trainers using up earned skill points, and SoC/Questing ADDING to your total skillpoints used.
This is the basic premise and how it could work behind this thread.
This is conjunction with skillpoint refunds for skills gained through quests after a player has paid for them at a trainer earlier would be ideal.

This is a basic summary about how it could be implemented with least impact on the game not a sould or shouldn't it post.

If you were to go that route then I'd say that after you complete a quest rather then being given two skills and burn two skill points the NPC should prompt you to select a skill or skills like the skill trainer or SoC does today. That way you can select ones you want (or come back later) without being forced to burn skill points on skills you may not want (but you did indeed want the XP for the quest).

Not agreeing with the idea, just refining it a little with specifics

CodeMonkey

That creates even more grind. Now, not only am I gonna have to go through every mission, but also every explorable area in order to look for bosses and skills. Not to mention everyone will be carrying 1 or 2 SoCs on their skillbar at all times. This isn't a great solution to the skill point system.

This sounds surprisingly similar to how skills worked in PWE and early beta. That system was fun, but scrapped in favor of the current one for the purposes of game longevity.

The only part you're missing is the skill charm trader and skill rings, but instead of that you're combining the two into signets of capture. Now instead of needing gold to buy a hard-to-find skill charm and skill ring you're proposing you need gold for signets.

Let's call things what they were: that system was great because we only had two days a month to play. It was fast and you could get a good skill collection in less than one beta weekend. Now Guild Wars must cater both to players who want to invest more than one of every fifteen days in playing and those who are casual.

Your system would likely have the same effect. An immediate influx of "fun" through a gold rush on skill-collecting, but then a very defined plateau (having all skills) becomes easier to reach, thus taking potential time off the game.

[ ]

Why does it need a solution? Whats wrong with the way it is?

If you don't want to use a skill point, do the quest. If you want convenience, buy the skill from a trainer. In my experiance, sure, it'd be dumb for me to use a SoC on a regular skill. So I don't. I save it for when I'm looking for an elite.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it isn't broken, so why should Arena Net spend the time and effort fixing it?

You will do that anyway if you want Elite skills as it is the only way to currently get them. But with the current system if you actually use all your points in error, you have to earn upto 20,000xp to gain a skill point to be able to capture any skill with SoC, and erm, you would still get skills from missions and trainer.

Taken directly from GuildWars website / patch update notes.
A.net aimed to create an instant action CORPG, they are actually aware that the current system takes away the instant part, and past ascention the game can actually lean towards what they actually didn't want to create. A standard PvE, with grind. So it is actually a large chunk of the community who have suggested / posted similar thread. It isn't broken, but is far from ideal and A.net have accepted this and are working towards a better system.

Well I agree, its not a great solution. But the definition of "grind" seems to consistently be referred to as "playing a game." Grind does not define "having to go through every mission", "explore", etc. That's called "an RPG."

Under that presumption the fact that I have to go on quests, and missions is an "experience grind" ;-) I can see it now: "I like GW except for the fact that it makes me level up, run quests, do missions, upgrade my armor, watch cinametics, and get skills and advancements."

CodeMonkey

It seems to me that this is nothing more than the old PvP -vs- PvE argument.

Codemonkey said:
Well I agree, its not a great solution. But the definition of "grind" seems to consistently be referred to as "playing a game." Grind does not define "having to go through every mission", "explore", etc. That's called "an RPG."

Under that presumption the fact that I have to go on quests, and missions is an "experience grind" ;-) I can see it now: "I like GW except for the fact that it makes me level up, run quests, do missions, upgrade my armor, watch cinametics, and get skills and advancements."

----------
Why would a PvE type complain about runing allov ethe place, doing missions and quests? The skill rerwards are nothing more than away of keeping score.
I can undrsdtand why a PvP type would not appreciate the beautiful landscape and the
other natural wonders the programmers put into the game.
However this particular game has provide a method for the PvP crowd to bypass all the "grind" or in non-game speak "play the game".
PvP can creatre their ultimate skill set wiothout all the game play interfering.
OH! Wait maybe they can't.
Why not just put the magic button in the PvP creatoiopn sequesce and give that character all the skills? I certaintly don't care how the other player got there; I know how I got there.

Some of the things I'm still not clear on:

Why does a PvP person want to play - sorry grind- the game when that person can get a completed toon day 1?

Is the 200 skillpoint cap a limit on how many you have in inventory at one time or is it a limit to how many your toon can earn throughout the entire game play. Seems that a 200 spending limit would rule out adding new skills in future releases.

Who says there aren't enough bosses to get the elite skills from. Is there anyone saying this that has actually been through the entire map? Explored every area? Found every random spawn that had every combinaton of skills?



From what I've ben able to find out (ther is sdtill a lot I yet to ferrit out) it is possible to change your secondary profession whenever you want - once you've done the required mission(s) - I believe thats 4 missions- so you can learn every single skill available in the game. I've read at least one post from a player stating that that was his goal.

Enlioghten me. Let me know what I missed.
Please bear in mind that I really don't care how a player develops their character.

I like making deceptive threads. Your average joe comes in thinking it's an easy question to answer and gets hit with a somewhat more complex argument. It makes people think......well, some people. Unfortunately, most of the Guru elite bypass it thinking that answering the question is beneath them. It's a trade-off, like anything.

If this thread doesn't offer a position then what are you attacking? Or to be specific, what exactly am I "asking people to attack"?

No, it isn't but that already happens now. This game is built around the team/guild. There isn't a system that a large guild or coordinated team can't bypass or exploit. Judging an idea based on what the elite can do to bypass/exploit it is hardly good policy. It's that kind of thinking that caused them to kill the drop rate which was definitely not well-received.

The system itself prohibits this because there are maybe two, usually one, unique skills per boss. Combined with the fact that the boss needs to be of your primary/secondary class, random boss spawns, random spawn locations and four skill capture runs become quite rare. Six, practically impossible. You know this as well as I do. It must have been a "test argument".....did I pass?

It is reasonable to expect that most of the community would play the game as intended even if the Signet of Capture were implemented. It is also reasonable to expect that those who abuse current systems, will abuse mine. In the end though, it would foster more positives than negatives and that's the lens through which you should judge its worth.

So what is it then? I thought we were all arguing and discussing....what suddenly changed? The key players here keep bringing something to the table and those that don't have already dropped off. Why stop? Tell me you're not enjoying yourself reading over your carefully crafted words. This thread is what fan forums were made for. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to pull out some weeds.....

And yet we've been able to fill up 5 pages of non-argument. Simply amazing. I'll re-state it and spare you the trouble of having to read any of the last few pages:

The Signet of Capture is not consistent with all other skills bought from the skill trainer nor is it consistent with the "risk vs reward" of skill quests.
1. The skill trainer trains you in a skill for a sum of gold and one skill point. In this case, the trainer trains you how to capture a skill. If this were consistent with ALL OF THE OTHER SKILLS, you would never lose the ability you were just taught. Thus, the SoC is inconsistent with the rest of the skills and should be fixed.
2. It costs neither gold nor skill points to accept a quest to go kill a boss monster and you are rewarded with xp and a couple skills. It costs you both gold and skill points to acquire a signet of capture, do the exact same task, and are rewarded with only one skill. Inconsistency.

This is hardly a big change. It's literally changing a 1 to a 0.

Can you list out what you think are the realistic problems this would create as well as any realistic benefits you see? At this point in the thread, people tend to skip paragraphs and I am probably the most guilty at being overly verbose. That said, I'll try to do the same on my end.

With the recent update of capping 20,000 xp on level 20's to gain another skill point make your thread out of date now. Whats so hard about aquiring skills now? 20,000 xp can be obtained from fissure in less than 30 minutes with your guildies who powered you through ... kiss the grind away

Making them free isn't worth it ... nor is making the non elite skills free as 'they already come free' in quests. So instead of having your guildies power level you through the game (which is not the way it was intended to be played) ... go get them for free and save your skill points. I ascended with 24 skill points still available on my first character ... impatience is petty, lack of understanding the game is tunnel vision, and this game is easy enough currently to attain them all anyways so why make an easy game easier?

It is an interesting topic to raise but I dont believe it should ever be implemented. (Okay so say they do and you get your wish, then what ...)

a. Everybody leaves guildwars because now not only is it a free game for lil tony the 13 year old to play with out having his daddy pay spamming fu wtf omg i f'in rule u all are pwned kizz my a--, hey baby give me -------' ... now you rectify that this game was madde for irresponsible n00bs by saying hey, here is a free game and all your skills handed on a silver platter what you do now is your choice .... (much too easy for any knowledgable strategist to waste there money on)

or b. guildwars has decided to make this game super uBer easy for all you, ... and sesame street goes bankrupt ...

This game is easy ... in fact I believe they made it that way so it requires next to nothing to acquire all skills already ... (you only have to do it once so suck it up princess!)

I dont in any way mean for anyone to take offense to my post, I just mean to drill in the fact that this is already an easily attainable goal and if you are having issues with it ... well ... lets just say 'the game engine is fine'

This is sort of like saying Vengeance is inconsistant with the other resurrect abilities because it doesn't permanently resurrect its target. The skill explains what it does...and it does what it says. Technically you'd be correct, but the skill is meant to work as advertised.

The signet of capture is meant to be a unique skill, with a specific purpose...which technically does make it inconsistant. I guess I still fail to see why this needs to be changed. As I stated earlier, Arcane Thievery explains that it's not permanent. Should it be made permanent for consistancy with signet of capture?

If you want the problem "solving the inconsistancy of SoC" would cause, here it is: Signet of Capture would then be inconsistant in allowing players to acquire *any* skill without skill points. It would penalize players who buy skills before signets are available and penalize players who buy skills to be immediately effective. It would undermine the skill quest system, if not completely replace it (and thus a fair portion of the content ANet's worked on). Currently there are many skills you explicitly cannot quest for, many of which are very powerful. Changing this system (and I'm assuming something here, that you'd want Signets of Capture offered earlier) would mean having to re-balance bosses not to use skills before players are supposed to be able to aquire them.

This isn't a fair comparison. Skill quests and Signets of Capture are not the same thing, so acting as though they were will of course lead you to find "inconsistancies". In some ways they lead to the same result, but they are not equivalents. Here are a few I've found:

* You *can't* quest for all skills, but you *can* capture any skill you don't know.
* You *can't* choose your reward from a quest. You *can* capture any skill you can learn with your primary or secondary class.
* Amusingly enough, you *can* quest for a signet of capture, thereby spending neither gold nor skill points on a signet though likely spending more in exp/gold questing for it than for buying it.
* You *can't* quest for an elite skill. You *can* capture any elite skill either of your professions can use.

You also have to spend time completing quests--time you could be spending on earning more skill points (which can be faster than doing some quests), earning more gold (if you don't quest with a small party of other players, your drops aren't going to be that great), or even doing something profitable like trading/auctioning or PvPing.

[ ]

You misunderstood, his comment was that they cant be used to enhance your party or hurt your foes. It's wasting a space until you kill a boss.

--Ginko

I don't agree fully with the idea of free skill pointed SoC's, but somehow I also don't agree with your assessment that it makes the game easier...just makes it different.

The Wilds Mission: Not Easy.
Getting through the black curtain: Not Easy
Reading a post that's 90% flame: Priceless.

CodeMonkey

Just make a Skill point trader, he sells skill points at say 5k per.

That way if you are going to go grind the exp, I am sure you will get $ on the way, which will at least double the benefit of the grind that is going to be forced on you anyway.

Also, as many people who want to sit there and grind out every skill..

There are way more people who look at that EXP bar and say * I would love to get that skill to say I did it, but there is no way in **LL I am grinding for that...*

At which point they go ahead and quit.

Oh and Put in my vote for a 100k uber signet of capture that you can use infinate times, woo woo gold sink !

No Really, 100k signet.

Tsunamii Starshine

Signet of Capture should cost 5k and require 3 skill points, but you should have access to it forever.

I'd better be clear about a few points.
A, There are enough Boss's to capture all Elites, but not all normal skills. And even if there was, to actually capture all skills using a FoC SoC would actually take longer than questing / purchasing skills. Why because you can only capture 1 skill per dead boss and each boss only has upyo 5 skills max. You would literally Have to explore everywhere 2 or 3 times.

B, After you have finished the story and the missions the only thing left is to collect skill points and mop up remaining skills, it is at this point after you have done the "game RPG" that it becomes a grind. That is actually the arguement put forward by PvP and PvE players who have finished the game a few times.

C, The 200 point skill point cap is currently based on what skills points you earn through HoH PvP,exploring / farming xp, quests. Skills given through quests don't count only if they award a skill point like the coop missions do. This also means that to learn all skills is impossible, even if you are given 10 skills foc for each of the remaining 4 classes, it still means you would need 240 points min (not exact).

D, This is not a PvP vs PvE arguement. Simple fact is the PvE is actually 100 hours at a push to actually complete / explore and capture all elites for 2 proffessions, then at that point there is nothing to do, bar try gaining skills for a different secondary or start agains, and thats if you are PvE. A friend put it across best, the PvE is actually a 60-70 hour distraction from the main GvG / PvP game. Whilest 100 hours is alot for a single player game, for a MMORPG it is very poor. Hence, why it is called Guild Wars not mega quest 2005.

I have yet to play PvP, basically because PvP doesn't interest me, PvE does, but for such a short game, It needs more "Fun" injecting at the end, simply because unlike a single player it doesn't end, but the games actually feels like it does and leave you with little else to do. With a easier system for gaining skills after completing story / missions would atleast offer insentive and reward back to the game.
If your idea of reward is killing creatures for 20xp till you have earned 20,000 xp so you can gain a skillpoint so you can go out and capture a skill, then repeat, I would suggest that other PvE MMORPG games would be more suited to your gameplay style than Guild Wars. From what the developers have stated in interviews, press releases and patch notes, this is not what they want Guild Wars to be or it to be remember for it.
I am not bothered if it is easier or harder, just that rewards can be received with less grind after game completion/ascention, and that capturing skills for secondary classes is a viable option, and that It is possible to have the option of changing secondary classes with the safe knowledge that you have / can have a decent selection of skills to chose from.
As CodeMonkey put it, it wouldn't make the game easier, just different.
** 20xp per kill is based on taking a full party, and not solo farming. Solo farming can reward 200xp per kill, but I beleive A.net are actually amending the balance so that it is simply not a viable option. Each patch they make the easy kills harder and make farming less viable, by mixing up the spawns in most cases.

Either I'm one of the average joe's or there is no real complex arguement at all.
There have been dozens of reasons on why it would be cool and why it would stink. None matter because that's not what skill points are about. Something that impacts this game as large as skill points won't kill or improve the game if it's modified, but it'll change the type of game it was meant to be. So no matter how persuasive a reason that may come up, there's no reason to get into any heated debate because of it.

Well hate to burst your bubble but I got 165 skillpoints so far and its a long ass ways to X-mas.

Also I have had 7 elites skills loadedinto my skillbar at once. That means I carried 6 SoCs and One Elite and One other skill. I don't know why ppl think its so hard to Cap. Most capping is done with henches. Also Everyplace you cap other than the few skills in the desert is done with a party of 8 so if One person by chance does nothing at all and you still cant kill a monk boss then your problem lies in the fact that your party is pitiful.
Why Because few monks do damge in the 1st place and most parties carry 2 or 3 monks in groups of 8. So that means you are killing these same monk bosses with only 5 ppl doing any real dmg. Yes I know a monk can shoot his stick or can smite.

Thanks for the rez although I can't make much sense of your post? What inspired you to make it?

With the addition of faction, this issue has been indirectly addressed. That and experience scrolls however the scrolls go largely unused leading me to believe my suggestion would have been a much better solution. (Completely unbiased here, obviously.)

The only argument against such a change is that there will be unintended consequences which is a risk you run with any change. The known positives far outweigh the speculative negatives.