Try this on for size. Pre-Searing spawns n00bs (not to be confused with newbs). Almost all the quests can be done alone. The ones where you have to team up are just superficial. People don't learn how to work as a team. They end up playing the game by themselves and come out of Pre-Searing not understand the fundamentals of teamplay:
1. Follow the leader
2. Call Targets
3. Don't rush off alone
4. Pull enemies toward you
5. Follow instructions
6. Only attack called targets
AreaNet should add more quests in Pre-Searing which focus on these aspects of teamplay. The game is supposed to be about teamwork, yet a person coming out of Pre-Searing doesn't even know the fundamentals of teamplay. In fact, many lvl 18 players don't know teamwork.
My suggestion? Create quests which focus on teamwork in Pre-Searing. This may cut down on n00bage.
The Pre Searing/n00b Connection
funbun
dansamy
Quote:
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Originally Posted by funbun
AreaNet should add more quests in Pre-Searing which focus on these aspects of teamplay. The game is supposed to be about teamwork, yet a person coming out of Pre-Searing doesn't even know the fundamentals of teamplay. In fact, many lvl 18 players don't know teamwork.
My suggestion? Create quests which focus on teamwork in Pre-Searing. This may cut down on n00bage. |
DrSLUGFly
seconded... I didn't learn about calltarget till I was like in Kryta or LA, and I've helped out others in the same places who also didn't know. All these things are crucial to gameplay and should be covered with focused quests in pre-searing.
Perhaps (this is quite likely) Anet didn't realize that most people coming into this game are new to Multiplayer RPGs and so don't quite understand the benefits of taking a specific role within the team. I love to be the leader, making a plan, pulling targets, calling the targets and giving directions... but I also know when I'm not suited to the role and when I should be following instead, the choice comes rather easy for me but I had to learn through countless deaths. Would be nice to have learned this pre-searing and also nice if future PUG's learned this in pre-searing.
long wind made into a breeze: Slugfly supports this idea on behalf of gastropods everywhere
Perhaps (this is quite likely) Anet didn't realize that most people coming into this game are new to Multiplayer RPGs and so don't quite understand the benefits of taking a specific role within the team. I love to be the leader, making a plan, pulling targets, calling the targets and giving directions... but I also know when I'm not suited to the role and when I should be following instead, the choice comes rather easy for me but I had to learn through countless deaths. Would be nice to have learned this pre-searing and also nice if future PUG's learned this in pre-searing.
long wind made into a breeze: Slugfly supports this idea on behalf of gastropods everywhere
Deathlord
I also didn't learn about call targets and i've played WPE and E3 (I don't remember them ever being used in it... were they even implemented? Or were they SO Un-known that my parties missed them). First found out sometime in crystal desert on the secondish try of Elona's Reach. They really should make a quest associated with it since it's essential to a majority of the parties success. (Maybe have devona dose off and talk about Ctrl+Mouse... Devona:"Wait... what's a mouse?")
psycore
They need to add a quest where you ally with a henchmen in pre searing who "calls targets" and stuff and explains to you how it works and how it is beneficial to the team.
BlaineTog
Quote:
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Originally Posted by psycore
They need to add a quest where you ally with a henchmen in pre searing who "calls targets" and stuff and explains to you how it works and how it is beneficial to the team.
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This should be part of the move from pre to post searing. During the part after the PvP, Rurik should go around calling Targets.
ManadartheHealer
Quote:
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Originally Posted by BlaineTog
YES.
This should be part of the move from pre to post searing. During the part after the PvP, Rurik should go around calling Targets. |
But, yes, something like that would work nicely
DrSLUGFly
that'd be perfect for Rurik since he seems so lazy and unlikely to kill anything himself
funbun
They need Pre-Searing quests requiring teams of three. Three people is enough to have a leader, someone to pull, and someone to call targets.
Example:
I just beat the game last night: Hell's Precipace. At first the group sucked. We had people runing off rush into beds of enemies. The whole while we had a ranger try to lead, pull enemies, and call targets. He was doing a great job.
The group kept dying because most wouldn't follow instructions or obey calls. After everyone's Death Penalty soared through the roof, the n00bs in the group began to understand they need to follow instructions.
Sure enough after everyone started following these Fundamental Teamplay Principles, we beat the final game mission, even with -60% Death Penalty!
We started as a suck group, but became a real team. Nice too see so many who feel as I do on the subject
More Thoughts
Whatever way they choose to do this they should make it so you have to succefully complete at least 2 teamplay type quests before joining the military.
Beyond the wall is great training ground for that. There are plenty of enemies, plenty of groups to pull and call targets. They should have it where they MUST:
1. Call 5 targets
2. Pull 5 individual groups of enemies
3. All players must obey 5 calls
Two or Three quests like that would set a foundation for GOOD Teamplay, and PvP in the newbie levels would be 1000% better.
Example:
I just beat the game last night: Hell's Precipace. At first the group sucked. We had people runing off rush into beds of enemies. The whole while we had a ranger try to lead, pull enemies, and call targets. He was doing a great job.
The group kept dying because most wouldn't follow instructions or obey calls. After everyone's Death Penalty soared through the roof, the n00bs in the group began to understand they need to follow instructions.
Sure enough after everyone started following these Fundamental Teamplay Principles, we beat the final game mission, even with -60% Death Penalty!
We started as a suck group, but became a real team. Nice too see so many who feel as I do on the subject
More Thoughts
Whatever way they choose to do this they should make it so you have to succefully complete at least 2 teamplay type quests before joining the military.
Beyond the wall is great training ground for that. There are plenty of enemies, plenty of groups to pull and call targets. They should have it where they MUST:
1. Call 5 targets
2. Pull 5 individual groups of enemies
3. All players must obey 5 calls
Two or Three quests like that would set a foundation for GOOD Teamplay, and PvP in the newbie levels would be 1000% better.
suzumebachi
HAH that sounds like me. I always end up leading, calling targets, AND pulling, because nobody else knows how to do any of the above. AND I just finished Hell's Precipice.
You know the first.. 6 or so tries, I went with PUGs. But they kept dying on like the 3rd or 4th group because nobody could follow directions. I gave up on PUGs and took henches, and made it to the last boss on the first try. But of course the henches got absolutely murdered after the Lich's res and summoning of more Hands/Fists.
So I gave up on henches again and finally got a PUG that could follow my directions. What's sad is at one point, we accidentally aggro'd a second group of the Titans, and everyone but the monks died. 2 people quit at that point (the ones who couldn't follow directions and kept killing the other Hulks anyways) and we managed to finish the game anyways because the rest of the team could follow directions.
It's amazing the difference it makes when people can attack called targets, and not go running off thinking they're God's gift to tanking and aggro more groups. And also actually drawing lone monsters and picking them off one at a time. Sure it requires patience and a little bit of strategy, but you're 200% more likely to succeed.
You know the first.. 6 or so tries, I went with PUGs. But they kept dying on like the 3rd or 4th group because nobody could follow directions. I gave up on PUGs and took henches, and made it to the last boss on the first try. But of course the henches got absolutely murdered after the Lich's res and summoning of more Hands/Fists.
So I gave up on henches again and finally got a PUG that could follow my directions. What's sad is at one point, we accidentally aggro'd a second group of the Titans, and everyone but the monks died. 2 people quit at that point (the ones who couldn't follow directions and kept killing the other Hulks anyways) and we managed to finish the game anyways because the rest of the team could follow directions.
It's amazing the difference it makes when people can attack called targets, and not go running off thinking they're God's gift to tanking and aggro more groups. And also actually drawing lone monsters and picking them off one at a time. Sure it requires patience and a little bit of strategy, but you're 200% more likely to succeed.
v-Lo
Very true. I don't even recall seeing "target calling" anywhere in the game. A guy told me about it when I asked. But this should really be worked out in the pre-searing, absolutely. The game is, then again, based on competitive team playing. It's funny how the fundamentals of team play are not taught in anywhere... bad mistake from A-net 
This should really be fixed in the next update.
This should really be fixed in the next update.
RTSFirebat
Quote:
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Originally Posted by v-Lo
Very true. I don't even recall seeing "target calling" anywhere in the game. A guy told me about it when I asked. But this should really be worked out in the pre-searing, absolutely. The game is, then again, based on competitive team playing. It's funny how the fundamentals of team play are not thought in anywhere... bad mistake from A-net
This should really be fixed in the next update. |
Hell Marauder
These are all really nice and workable suggestions. But as you can see from above posts, you can find noobs even in Hell's Precipice. How the heck did they get there without knowing anything about teamwork?? I am more inclined to think many people just want to have some fun playing as noobs, and are not actual noobs. Afterall, if the game is all about being a mindless slave following the master's call and do nothing else, it can be boring too.
Prince Rurik
Quote:
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Originally Posted by DrSLUGFly
that'd be perfect for Rurik since he seems so lazy and unlikely to kill anything himself
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Cowardly human players! Cowards all!!!!
RTSFirebat
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Prince Rurik
Hah! Puny mortal - I have racked up more kills by now than you ever will. Don't forget, while you run around by yourself, tens of thousands of me are scouring the land, charging recklessly into packs of Charr and Devourers!
Cowardly human players! Cowards all!!!! |
He's like a typically warrior:
Prince R: "Charge... death to the charr"
Me: "er... hang on need to recover health and mana"
Prince R: "Less talk, more fighting"
FrogDevourer
Quote:
| Create quests which focus on teamwork in Pre-Searing. |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Prince Rurik
Don't forget, while you run around by yourself, tens of thousands of me are scouring the land, charging recklessly into packs of Charr and Devourers!
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Prince Rurik
Quote:
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Originally Posted by FrogDevourer
Where do I sign? Please.
No offense intended, dear Rurik, but you're no longer what you used to be. A couple of months ago, I was sweating whenever you were chasing charrs. Since the latest updates, you're slow and boring. Now where is the good ol' rurik who used to keep me playing on my toes... |
funbun
SPOILER:
Rurik, how is the Hall of Heros? Are all the Great Masters there? After your death in Hell's Precipace it was nice to know you did not betray us after all.
What of combat? Is there more training, more battles, more matches?
At least now you are free, out of the conrtol of dark lords and demons.
Rurik, how is the Hall of Heros? Are all the Great Masters there? After your death in Hell's Precipace it was nice to know you did not betray us after all.
What of combat? Is there more training, more battles, more matches?
At least now you are free, out of the conrtol of dark lords and demons.
psycore
That wasn't much of a spoiler warning at all.... and GG thread hijack.
funbun
AreaNet are you listening? How do we make a formal suggestion? Is there a website or something? Start a petition thread?
Mayar third Keeper
/sign Very nice idea!
Prince Rurik
Sorry for the thread hijack, my ears were burning.
Better human players is a good thing, I'll sign on behalf of NPCs. I am Prince after all.
/Signed
Better human players is a good thing, I'll sign on behalf of NPCs. I am Prince after all.
/Signed
BrandonIT
I admit I made it to Lion's Arch last night, and just then did I feel the need to have an actual 'caller' in the party.
Until then, my group simply focused on "kill the healer" then went where the battle took us. Most of the battles were slow enough and the PvE enemies mindless warrior-types (no offense to anyone) so having a real gameplan wasn't necessary.
But on the way to Lion's Arch, we're fighting 3-4 caster's at a time. As a Mesmer, things got very hairy VERY fast.
So I would definitely support more team-practice in the early game, even as far back as Pre-Sear. Some kind of 'call target' practice, then maybe a 'pulling' practice.
Heck, Rurik can do his "This is a fight we cannot win... UNLESS you, the Ranger!, get up there and pull us out just a couple of those nasty Charr!"...
/sign
Until then, my group simply focused on "kill the healer" then went where the battle took us. Most of the battles were slow enough and the PvE enemies mindless warrior-types (no offense to anyone) so having a real gameplan wasn't necessary.
But on the way to Lion's Arch, we're fighting 3-4 caster's at a time. As a Mesmer, things got very hairy VERY fast.
So I would definitely support more team-practice in the early game, even as far back as Pre-Sear. Some kind of 'call target' practice, then maybe a 'pulling' practice.
Heck, Rurik can do his "This is a fight we cannot win... UNLESS you, the Ranger!, get up there and pull us out just a couple of those nasty Charr!"...
/sign
Feli
I remember in one of those earlier beta events. I think it was the one where the area around Kryta was shown to the public.
Whenever someone called a target he was saying something like:
"I'm attacking <enemy>, press T to attack my target"
However, i was kinda surprised to find it cut down to a mere "I'm attacking <enemy>".
Whenever someone called a target he was saying something like:
"I'm attacking <enemy>, press T to attack my target"
However, i was kinda surprised to find it cut down to a mere "I'm attacking <enemy>".
funbun
Also, make the pre-searing "call target" and "pulling" quests worth a lot of xp (500-600 xp each) This will have a psycologial meaning:
"Wow, 1100 xp for calling and teamwork? This must be worth something."
/sign
"Wow, 1100 xp for calling and teamwork? This must be worth something."
/sign
Swampgirl Inez
/sign
Heck, even those of us who do like to use teamwork need the practice. Even better if we get a reward for it.
Heck, even those of us who do like to use teamwork need the practice. Even better if we get a reward for it.
zemelett
I would have to say that one of the biggest reasons you see a lack of teamwork is because of a few things.
First a lot of times you get 4-6-or 8 people together with different objectives, whether that is SOC, bonus, infusion, or whatever the case may be. One way I combat this is to ask people who join up with me what their main goal is and then ask the entire team to help every one accomplish that. Usually if you ask rather than tell you get better results, still I have had a couple of people who said they would help finish a mission just to have them leave after they capture a skill...
Second there are a lot of people who have done a mission a few times and failed for what ever reason. The next time they go in the want to avoid the last mistakes and so they are consistantly shouting orders about what to do and what not to do. So if you get 4-6-or 8 people shouting orders it gets hard to know which one is the best one to follow. There isnt really any good ways to combat this behavior as every one wants to live and to complete their goal. However, one thing I like to do is at the start of any mission or quest is to ask everyone to agree on one leader and follow his lead...
not perfect advice and like I said you will still find a few people who will competely disregard the leader or the mission objective, just because that is their personality...unfortunatly you have to deal with that when you play a game with so many different types of people...
First a lot of times you get 4-6-or 8 people together with different objectives, whether that is SOC, bonus, infusion, or whatever the case may be. One way I combat this is to ask people who join up with me what their main goal is and then ask the entire team to help every one accomplish that. Usually if you ask rather than tell you get better results, still I have had a couple of people who said they would help finish a mission just to have them leave after they capture a skill...
Second there are a lot of people who have done a mission a few times and failed for what ever reason. The next time they go in the want to avoid the last mistakes and so they are consistantly shouting orders about what to do and what not to do. So if you get 4-6-or 8 people shouting orders it gets hard to know which one is the best one to follow. There isnt really any good ways to combat this behavior as every one wants to live and to complete their goal. However, one thing I like to do is at the start of any mission or quest is to ask everyone to agree on one leader and follow his lead...
not perfect advice and like I said you will still find a few people who will competely disregard the leader or the mission objective, just because that is their personality...unfortunatly you have to deal with that when you play a game with so many different types of people...
funbun
Good point, but if they burn the concepts of teamwork in their minds early in the game these problems could be avoided later on.
Rhunex
The problem is that pre-searing doesn't have mobs like later in the game. The monsters are few and far between, and all level 3 or under unless it's a special monster(River Drake, Skale Brood, Bull, Oakhearts, and Charr), so it's not like you have much to call out anyways. Plus, your "team" is limited to 2 people, which just doesn't teach you much about teamwork at all. I'd like this idea more if it was at the start of post searing, maybe one of the first quests Tydus gives out...?
funbun
There are plenty of enemies in Pre Searing. Go beyond the Great Wall where the Charr are planning their attack. That's the best place for these "call/pull" type quests.
They can change teams to 3 people like I suggested in my above post:
However, your suggestion of making it the first quest in Post-Searing is a good one. Enemies are stronger more of a challenge and as the saying goes, "The lessons learned in the heat of battle are the most indenible."
At any rate, pre or post searing I think we all agree there needs to be a "call/pull" quest to solidify team work. Either one would work for me.
They can change teams to 3 people like I suggested in my above post:
Quote:
| They need Pre-Searing quests requiring teams of three. Three people is enough to have a leader, someone to pull, and someone to call targets. |
At any rate, pre or post searing I think we all agree there needs to be a "call/pull" quest to solidify team work. Either one would work for me.
Sagius Truthbarron
I liked Psycore's idea the best. But you know, it's such a neat thing that they thought of drawing on the mini map. My friend is joining soon and I'll be happy that there will be no need to shout over Teamspeak "No, no, talk to this guy, get the quest! The guy to the left. Other left, follow me. Over here..." No other game, to my knowledge, has that; not even modern war games like Battlefield 2.
/signed for Npc caller quest. Wouldn't work, in my opinion with another person, or wouldn't be as effective.
By the way, I knew about calling and writting on the map from the start, though I can see how some missed it; it not being explained and all. Odd that they never would have run into anyone else writting on the map, I've never been in a group where it hasn't been used. And how could you miss pings?
Has anyone seen the people that start scribbling on the map and drawing faces after you make pathways? It's odd.. As if you just ran into a person who had never heard speech in their life mocking your attempts at communication. Or am I just being overly dramatic?
No other game, to my knowledge, has that; not even modern war games like Battlefield 2./signed for Npc caller quest. Wouldn't work, in my opinion with another person, or wouldn't be as effective.
By the way, I knew about calling and writting on the map from the start, though I can see how some missed it; it not being explained and all. Odd that they never would have run into anyone else writting on the map, I've never been in a group where it hasn't been used. And how could you miss pings?
Has anyone seen the people that start scribbling on the map and drawing faces after you make pathways? It's odd.. As if you just ran into a person who had never heard speech in their life mocking your attempts at communication. Or am I just being overly dramatic?