My take on GuildWars...a mild disappointment over all.

What's the difference between "missions" and "quests" and how do I know which are the missions/quests that will speed me up?

Can anyone draw that 20 hour line of levelling to finish? I might just finish all my side quests for giggles but the freedom to break the cycle might compel me to return and play.

Missions are in towns/cities with shields for icons on your map. Usually if you don't get to a mission town right away, there is a quest in the next outpost/town that will take you to one. The first mission is the Great Northern Wall (there is an exit from Ascalon to this town [Behind Tydus]). Upon it's completion you will be taken to another mission town - Fort Ranik. The third mission you have to walk to but I believe it's tied to a primary quest on your quest log. For the rest of the missions, you can get to them in a similar fashion.

To enter a mission you gather a group and if you are the party leader you hit: "Enter Mission on your party screen." Be careful, unlike exploreable areas, if you're group dies, you do not get respawned with a DP, you will have to start the mission over again. For a completing a mission you get 1000 XP and a skill point. I believe almost every mission has a bonus part which will grab you another 1000 XP. Gwonline has a mission objectives guide for finding/triggering the bonuses and hints for their completion.

*Edit: Last I checked it helped you all the way though the Sanctum Cay mission, which after finishing will get you to the Crystal Desert.

look at your map

any mission area will have a shield on it with 1,2 or no swords indicating the primary mission filled, or the secondary bonus filled or both or none done yet

the first mission is the great northern wall gotten from sir tydus in askalon at the start of seared after the searing which will take you to the next mission at fort ranik
which will take you to the
ruins of surmia
then to nolani academy
borlis pass
the frost gate

be sure that you hit the ENTER MISSION button rather than simply leaving the area looking for the mission

edit

i was afk and should have looked before posting as a much better was done already

oops

Madan, you come here seeking advice, and you say no to people who try to help you, without even any explanation.(On page 2 you say "no" to all 3 suggestions given to you)

Heres my advice
Mesmer is probably one of the harder self sustaining professions and i also reccomend that you take up a W/Mo.
I had a similar problem like you, i started a elementalist, and found that i couldnt survive on my own, but i made a W/M and loved the sheer power i had.

I know that its a very popular profession among the new players, but it is a good one and I believe the easiest and most rewarding profession.

If u dont like tanks, take up a ranger. They have great and fun skills to play with and can be great by themselves.

Mesmer's IMO are a profession that usually you take up after getting to know the game a little(e.g. after W/Mo), because of their unique abilities. Its very hard to make a good build when you dont know much about the game,(Where are you exactly right now?) especially a mesmer.

I am simlpy trying help you understand what you are doing wrong, like you say in your original post. And if i fail, well i tryed.

Cheers,
Dnws517

Dnws517 :

I'm not listening to any advice that explains my "grind" as stupidity or lying on my part. You're absolutely right. Perhaps you can reread MY post and that one and try and put yourself in my position for a change.

My mesmer is a good three levels ahead of my warrior. So NO. I'm not dropping it.

I'm NOT some mongoloid that doesn't know how to play, the problem was I was spending my time getting all the side quests done which several people have admitted here is a total waste of time. So again, NO, I'm not going to accept and kiss someone's ass.

Especially when they're acting like a child.

But thanks for trying to fault me for the misbehavior of others. I appreciate it.

Actually, I already have my solution, given by people that didn't act like toddlers.

Thanks.

I actually think the two profession system is brilliant. I think it is much better than having 5 fundamental stats that you build up for a profession as in most games.

(I keep thinking that a game where anybody can buy any skill might be interesting, sort of like the RPG GURPS, but that is obviously not for GW)

There is one criticism in the review that I really agree with however, and that is that the economy is broken. Not necessarily for the reasons that the reviewer outlined, but because the A.N has nerfed farming while doing nothing about the real problems that cause all these online economies to fail:

#1 Limited exits for money for very rich players. I have made several suggestions in other posts on how to fix this. In short, letting guids compete to build larger and larger statues and monuments (that go up in price by the volume of area the monument takes) would be a start.

#2 Tax the rich. Unlike a real economy/political system, there is no particular reason why rich players should have more influence over the system than the poor ones. Players just starting off should not be taxed at all. Players worth more than 40p should be taxed lightly, over 100p moderately and over 200p heavily. This would encourge individuals to compete to build items like those mentioned in #1 (which will also cause money to leave the game), and if they don't the money will slowly disappear anyway through taxes. [BTW taxes should be assessed through accounts---total the value for all of a players characters and their storage.]


Pop

Quests and exploration are helpful too, you learn the maps and when you need to find something(certain drops, bosses, skills) or go somewhere, you will be one step ahead. My advice: do both missions and quests; at least for your first character. Take your time, so that your second's progression will be much smoother.

You keep complaining that people aren't giving your ideas a fair chance, but you read your own things into many responses to make them say things they do not. Then, ironically, you use that to claim that people are putting words in your mouth.

If you want your opinion heard fairly, give everyone else the same courtesy.

A lot of the points you made originally do make it sound like you have not had much experience with the game so far. The mentality that it suggests when you sound disappointed that you're not getting Everquest for free does not help. Many of us, including myself, liked Guild Wars in the first place because it was something different than the standard made popular by EQ.

Try being a bit more civil toward the people who are trying to help you rather than reading hostilities into every word.

The hypocrisy sometimes never ceases to amaze me. I'm not exactly new at posting online but, honestly, the amount of hypocrisy always manages to blow me away:

To witch:

I'm complaining? Fine.

You're being hypocritical.

I never said that. I SAID, that some individuals were being downright rude and nasty in their replies. Overall, most individuals have been very nice. Some have agreed with me. Some haven't, but that's ok with me as long as the replies have been civil. Civility was key. You haven't seen me attack people that disagree with me. And plenty of people have.

I've taken account, however, individuals that equate disagreement with weakness. You happen to be one, in trying to label me as a troublemaker and a hypocrite, when I've simply been responding, in kind, to individuals.

I've responded to comments, in the same tone I've received them. Nothing can be fairer than that.

More hypocrisy. You're either willingly reading vitriol in my posts(which I've posted out plenty ppl have) or you simply want to ignore the nasty posts made before.

Either way, if you're not going to be fair, and try to label me as the troublemaker, that's your prerrogative.

But it's clear as day, to anyone with a clue, that you're about as right as wrong.

Well said. These are interesting different levels to think about. That said, you have mixed up your personal feelings about the priorities along with the definitions of the levels. I have no problem with people having opinions, but it's a little less clear.

Clearly, these are all shades of grey. The binary problem (as in, the problem exists or it doesn't) is this:

Playing time is a significant factor for reasons other than practice and learning to use the system. You currently need to do things besides playing PvP (or the subset including GvG) in order to compete equally.

I contend that this is simply true, and unarguable. You must spend time playing "lots" of PvE in order to compete equally with in PvP, for some definition of lots.

There's a counter argument which usually is something along the lines of, "... but it doesn't matter much!". I am not here to agree or disagree with that statement, but to point out that it's entirely different than agreeing that the original issue exists. Once we agree that there IS an issue, it's a matter of shades of grey (i.e. determining how severe the problem is, and what needs to be done to fix it).

Obviously, the entire issue can be made to go away by simply allowing PvP characters access to EVERYTHING a PvE character can access (including all items, runes, skills, elites, etc.). This includes things like multiple armor sets (which all PvE characters can take advantage of).

Many people object to the extremity of this solution, and that's fine, but it's the ONLY solution that actually removes the problem instead of merely making it less severe. (Again, I'm not trying to advocate this as a solution, but it's the only complete solution.)

As another practical consideration, it appears that Arena Net has made an explicit design decision that players will have to participate in extensive PvE in order to participate in 100% fair PvP. If we take that as gospel (and while Arena Net hasn't really stated it, unless they do we can largely only assume it's true), then we should focus our energies on limiting the severity of the problems this design decision causes, rather than changing the design decision (since that's clearly ArenaNet's choice, not ours).

It's fine to see if people agree or disagree with the design decision, but there's unlikely going to be a very creative solution besides giving everything to everyone up front for PvP characters. (The most "creative" thing in this area is making players "finish" the game in order to get this option, which is only really justifiable for training purposes.)

That's it for now.

Great point. I got the best armor and best weapon possible for my character with 15 thousand dollars (14 thousand spent on the end-game armor). I never did any grinding and easily had the 15k to spend (with only 60 hours of game-play). That means that you DON'T have to have to Grind to compete in pvp. Maybe the reviewer just sucked at pvp.

Another point: What dye besides black costs 1000+ bucks!? The reviewer said that most dyes cost 1000gold. No. Try 1/5 of that.

This, of course, allows you to selectively ignore anything he states that you would have difficulty addressing.

And like assholes, everyone has them. Claiming that people cannot attack your post because "It's just an opinion!" is nothing more than a lame cop-out designed to throw a red herring in the face of your opponent.

The fact that play time inpacts pvp competitability SEVERELY (ONLY because it's severe) makes it a problem; Making it not significant would eliminate the problem (because if it's not severe it's not a problem).

Let's say you do make everything unlocked for pvp right away. Then there will be people with 100+ hours of Pvp that are very good at it, organized and in a guild that have whole routines set down. You would still be able to jump in and say "The game has a problem because they've played longer than me and can beat me easily. You need to do things besides start a pvp character and play once to be able to compete in pvp. " You get my point.

No, that's communism. Socialism is simply ensuring that everybody has a minimum standard of living, much like the U.S. currently does.

The game released about a month ago?

YOu've played for 60+ hours. I'm assuming you didn't play everyday. But even if you did, you're looking at over 2 hours of gameplay per day.

No grind there. Btw, it must be nice to have so much time off. Congratulations.

That's the only solution if you start with the assumption that everyone has to have everything to "compete equally".

I question that assumption. If you have a subset and I have a subset (of equal size), then we are competing equally, right?

Then the problem is usually where other people have a larger or smaller subset than me. GW addresses this to a limited extent with the 8 slot system , the low level cap, and the rune traders: He who has a larger subset may be more flexible, or may be able to build around certain important skills, but generally he won't be more powerful in a brute-force sense.

My opinion is that it's a subtle enough problem "not to matter" but clearly some people really want absolute and total equality. (re: the FPS whingers)

So here's an alternative "final solution" - it's not a good one, everyone will hate it, heck, I dont even support it myself, but hypothetically:

Place a limit on the total number of things you can unlock, such that, after a short amount of PVE time (for "training") you have reached the limit. You can "refund" and relock something to get something else, but it's limited in some way (either you have to quest to unlock something else, or you can only refund things at a limited rate.)

There we have the situation where "not everyone has everything" yet "everyone competing equally".

I think the current system is a compromise between giving people incentives to play more and get stuff, and the "not everyone has everything, but its still fair" principles. Whether it's a good compromise or not, is up to individual tastes I guess.

I think that's a reasonable question to ask. The problem is ensuring the subsets are "of equal size", as you say. And I'm actually incredibly interested in playing PvP games that force a subset of different but equal (in theory) games (i.e. Limited Games, as exist in CCGs; other threads have explored this more).

For full on PvP, though, as happens in the Tombs and Hall of Heroes, I think the situation is different enough to make the solution different. Also, it's clearly, unambigously fair if the subsets are identical, which is true when the subset is actually just "everything". At the least, it's the only way to ensure a 100% fair game. Otherwise, there's all KINDS of balance questions where subsets are theoretically different but equal.

At the least, I think GuildWars should have SOME form of PvP that is obviously fair without any grinding. (In my opinion, it would preferably be the highest form, Tombs, Hall of Heroes etc.)

I actually question whether or not it's fair. I think players who grind more have a clear and obvious advantage that doesn't lie in skill or natural talent, just in grinding more. To me, that's unfair.

I think if you both have the option to choose the same subset, then it doesnt matter if the two subsets you actually choose are unequal - it's still fair.

Take arcade fighting games... no matter how hard the developers try to balance things, it can never be perfect. Even if its just "Character X is stronger than Y at lower skill levels, but the reverse is true at higher skill levels." But it's fair because both people can choose the same character. However, if I persist in choosing nerfed-to-hell Athena instead of cheap-as-bastard Iori, just because I have some sort of bizarre fetish for schoolgirls, well, that's my problem, isn't it? It's still -fair-. Even 100% fair. (And it makes winning with her all the sweeter, even without her costume change winning pose :P)


Well - for the Equalness freaks out there - here's another solution.
Give us more templates, and make some PvP arenas only open to template characters. There. Perfectly fair PvP, without the grinding. And pve rewards still in place. And it doesn't impact on the rest of the game, for those mixed pve & pvp people, or those pve only people, or those pvp people who aren't Equalist fanatics.

Anyone who argues for UAS versus template-only, really ARE only interested in "silver-platter", not "equalness"

I guess here's another point. Have you heard the saying "Well, luck is a skill all its own." Or, for Naruto watchers out there, "Your genius is Hard Work, Lee!".

Well maybe, just maybe, "free time and an obsessive personality is a skill all its own." Those people complaining that other people have more time to grind than them - it's perfectly fair because YOU TOO can grind just as much, if you choose to do so. Quit your job. Divorce your wife. Sell your children to pay for food and internet.

And that's just an extreme exaggeration. (ie. for WoW players). GW has reduced the grind, so that all you need to do is divorce your wife and let her take the kids. You can KEEP your job and still compete in GW at the highest level! Be grateful!

Things FPS competitions reward you for:
Aiming skill.
Ability to concentrate on the area of screen just around your cross hairs.
Twitch reflexes.
Watching lots of Clan tournament vids posted on the net set to heavy metal music. (time consuming)
Practice. (time consuming)

Things Chess competitions reward you for:
Ability to plan ahead.
Knowledge of previous and famous games. (time consuming)
Ability to keep track of many possible combinations at the same time.

Things GW competitions reward you for:
Ability to think in real time.
Knowledge of the game, website browsing. (time consuming?)
Ability to pay attention to several things at once.
PVE play time. (time consuming)
Practice (time consuming)


Actually - now that I think about it, one thing that attracts many people to RPGs is that, even if you have no natural ability whatsoever, if you persist at it, you'll eventually overcome any obstacle, from sheer levelling if nothing else. Whereas they might get discouraged from FPS's because they'll never get enough twitch reflexes to be able to compete at a reasonable level. Whereas an RPG always dangles a bit of a carrot to keep you playing just a little more.

GW offers a nonthreatening environment for such people (carebears?) to trade time for a bit of a leg up, whilst still being "fair" enough so that skilled players can come along and whip their asses. The legitimate (non-whinging loser) complaints probably come from skilled players who are annoyed at the advantage grinding time gives to other skilled players. The anti-carebears argument usually comes from skilled players, because they are skilled, thinking that they are more important than the plodding masses.

Unless they can come up with a way to please those who want a highly refined competitive pvp experience, without taking away the motivations for other people who like to spend time getting rewards in pve, then ANet will have to decide which group it wants to please more, and what compromises to make. But I guess we all knew that, we're just pushing for the line to go a little more towards our respective preferences.

(And no - a seperate UAS pvp ladder isn't the solution, cause if a pve player can simply make such a character and then see all the spells and stuff, then discipline alone isn't enough to keep the "reward" in the grinding game. However, a template-only arena would probably do the trick.)

So hey, whaddya think? Give us some more templates, some more varied templates (I'd like to see 5-6 templates per CLASS, myself), and give those hardcore pvp'ers template-only arenas to "prove their skillz". If they want to play around, be creative, or see all the stuff, well, then they must GRIND :P
Has this idea been raised before? Anyone got a link to a discussion about it?

Heheh, I went from being pissed off at replying to some guys poorly-exampled opinions (in my first post), to being interested in exploring the topic now.
Thanks, JoDiamonds, I hope you continue to be interested in discussing this topic


PS. Having said all that, I wish ANet would just let us unlock things by playing pvp matches, and shut all of us up :P :P :P

Hmm you know what they will actually do, what any sain games developer would do.
They will ignor the hardcore PvP crowd and ignor the hard core PvE crowd as the majority of players PvP abit and also PvE. If the Hardcore PvE and PvP players left, they would probably lose 10-15% of the current player population. Sounds bad?? Not really they dont charge a monthly, so to coin a phrase, they already had your cash.
This 10-15% will also be leaving GW in the Future anyway. The hardcore PvP, twitch gamers will leave as soon as something new comes along and the hardcore PvE players will either leave and go play WoW / EQ2 etc or the new Morrowind when its released. And there is a huge plus side also, it would rid the forums of 99% of the whingers.
Some how you all manage to turn each and every thread in to the same old battlefield.
Simply put Guild Wars is what it is nothing more and nothing less. A Good game, with a length online storymode which can beplayed with or without human players, which lasts upto 100 hours, and a well balanced selection of PvP arenas. The tournaments whilest nice that they are organised by A.net, would infact be there and organised by fans of the game anyway, just like players do with every other competitive online game.
My fav review so far actually put it this way, Some MMORPG's use instance gaming, CoH , AO both use this, they create small missions which are unique to the play / group playing them as a interlude from the actual game world, Guild Wars does it the otherway round, they have taken instance gaming and made that into the gameworld.
It is this simple thing that will in the end determine if you love or hate it. It is not your typical MMORPG it is a CORPG with PvP as the main thrust behind it all. The missions are training for the PvP, they hopefull teach abit aout team work and show you the actual different types of gameplay available in PvP.

What can I say? I'm a hardcore forum PvPer :P

Simplifying arguments like that are boring. It ends threads quickly. I'd rather discuss the nuances ad infinitum. Sometimes a really good idea needs a lot of fertilizer before it can grow.

Hmmm... I REALLY should be spending this time playing the game instead ^_^;

Maybe but it cuts out the waffle, and there is enough fertilizer floating around in these type of post to feed a rain forest.

I only play games that I truly have fun with and any game that feels like online "work" really isn't much of a game to me. The only real problems I had with Madan's article was the "work" statement and the idea that his opinions are true just because you can't tell me my "opinon" is wrong.

I've tried a few of the other "role-playing" games out there and have found them to be nothing more than online work. The grind as everyone likes to talk about will be present in almost any game in some form or another. "Nothing easy in life, is worth doing" kind of thinking just comes to mind.

Just because it is difficult, does not mean that it is not fun. I have a lot fun with and personally enjoy the battles and strategy involved in the game. They are far and away a step in the right direction, much... much better than Lineage 2 and true online work games.

I love how I don't have to start my character over when I see that an adaptation is needed. I have already changed my character at least 20 times in these early parts of the game.

Since all we are babbling about is simple opinions that noone can "prove wrong", why would I post it on a "discussion" forum? Why would I do this if I didn't want anyone to discuss my opinions and view points? The truth of the matter is that using reason and logic, opinions can be shown to be false.

I believe that <insert any rascist or bigot statement here> to be true, that is my opinion and cannot be proven wrong.

This is not true, there are many ways to reason that this opinion is not truthful (therefore wrong).

This assumes that reason and logic are being used by both sides, and rarely is this the case (it's certainly not the case in this thread).

Madan I enjoyed what you typed and I disagreed from my experiences with much of what you stated. You also have a greater responsibility since it was entitled "a review" to represent sound opinions which quite honestly can be proven right or wrong. But this is just my opinion, so do whatever you want with it.

Well, these are my thoughts:

I love GW, but I'd like to see the following:

1. Epic PVP battles- Increase the party size and allow use of terrain and provide a greater sense of purpose in the battles (I'd leave that up to A.net's amazing creativity). From the beginning, this is what I envisioned GW to be like.

2. Provide greater uniqueness/customization of your character to enhance the RP feel and overall satisfaction as you build your character instead of just building a robot so-to-speak.

3. This may be a tough one but, I do wish there was more of an arcade feel/fluidity of your character's movement as you engage in combat. I hate to bring in WoW as an example, BUT, when you activate "combat mode" you stay in that mode until you switch it off or your enemy/character dies. In this way you can still hack and slash or away while moving around and still have the option to flee/cast spells as required. I'm not sure if this would work with GWs combat dynamics but I think this would enhance game play.

4. In many cases, it's all about focus firing on the monk. Kill the monk(s) first. Now this may be a totally inaccurate statement on my part because I haven't done a lot of PvP yet, but I'm at least hearing a lot of this. I wonder how Anet can create greater variablility in "general" battle strategy.

Personally, if I saw these features implementated, I would be one extremely happy GWer.

-Ashraven

Okay...I'm going to reply, even though I haven't exactly read through everything. I just wanted to address a few points.

To some it may sound like you're complaining, but I've read your points and it doesn't exactly sound like complaining to me. You just find the game isn't what you thought it would be. Personally, the game -is- what I expected it to be, mainly because there was no monthly fee, and I haven't been dissapointed. I enjoy this 'grind' that some people seem to dislike. I'm just sorry that you don't have as much time to play as most of us. I'll admit that I play a lot more than some, but not as much as some as well. I maybe clock in 4 - 5 hours a day until the weekend, then it's like one or two at most.

In my own opinion, I just enjoy the game. I paid for it, so I play it. It's a lot better than some games I've played, yet sometimes I do kind of miss the monotony(sp?) of mining, or cutting down trees, etc. It's just how I am.

Enough of my blabbing, I'll get to some of your points.

I'd have to say I somewhat agree, although at times the henchmen AI isn't that great. I mean, the healer henchman tanks sometimes. That's not good AI is it? As does the cultist henchman, and both can get annoying. I agree that the henchmen stealing the drops is a pain, but if they didn't implement that, then hardly anyone would team up with other players and would just team with henchies to get every drop. It creates a certain balance, I think.

I agree that the story is a little weak. I mean, you go from fighting Charr in Ascalon, to helping out the dwarves in the Shiverpeak Mountains. I guess it just doesn't make much sense to me, ah well. About the fetch me this, kill that for me...true, it can get repetitive at times, but at least you only have to walk to that spot and not back. I've never played WoW or EQ, but I know that in those games if you have to deliver something to someone, you have to walk to and back. At least we get to teleport from city to city, you know?

Onto other topics.

The Mesmer Class has already been described as the hardest class to get in to. The skills that the mesmer class provides are not always made for PvE, but more for PvP. When I had a mesmer, I found that Backfire wasn't all that helpful to me during PvE, as not many of the early monsters cast spells. Backfire -does-, however, get better as the game progresses.

I'll just offer the same advice as I've been given. Try and find quests that give skill points only. Don't worry about the quests that just give exp, or give exp and a few useless items. Just do the quests that award skills. It's what I've done with a lot of my characters, and I'm only in Ascalon as much as I want to be. Also, save some skill points, and don't initially(sp?) buy skills from trainers, unless the trainers are kind of hidden like in the Ascalon Settlement (over in Kryta).

I'm also going to agree on a few other points that have been made. I feel that those helemets for warriors that offer bonuses to axe, sword, etc. should be altered instead of the same dome helmet that's always available. More weapons would also be awesome, as I'd love to start using spears or lances, or even Monks could get more defensive with staves that can actually be used in combat. I know it'd take some more coding to make it happen, but ah well.

Even if you don't feel up to it, I still offer some help to you. I have a monk/mesmer in Ascalon at the moment named Priestess Niare, if you'd like to join up sometime. I can help with the main Ascalon missions, or some of the skill quests. My main character is Niare Tilnalil, a Warrior/Elementalist, so if I'm not on as my monk, I'm on as my warrior.

Eh...sorry if my post is all over the place. I'm kind of tired at the moment.

Like you said in many cases. Usually when i pair up with my guild we always go after the mesmer class, then the monks. Mesmers usually tend to give us a harder time by shattering enchantments or taking energy away. Anyways, my 2 cents

That is true, and a good perspective.


Definitely part of my point. =)

I definitely like this idea. Prone to get boring quickly if there aren't a lot of templates, and removes some of the skill and fun aspect itself (in that you don't get to create a character), but I would enjoy playing it. (I enjoy playing "unfair" PvP right now anyway, but it's a good idea.)

That's not really true. There's some fun and skill missing from template-only. I mean, you could offer an arena where players just flip coins. Totally fair, but not much fun.

I'm not against template-only per se, but it's not offering as much fun as Guild Wars could be offering.

I really hope you aren't taking yourself too seriously on this. =)

Luck is NOT a skill all its own. Nor is free time. The idea is ludicrous, and is semantic sophistry. The definition of "skill" may be a little vague, but not THAT vague.

I don't have any problem with the fact that people who put the time in have a better chance of winning, per se. It's just not the focus; the part I want to matter is skill, and I prefer that no other time (or money, or whatever) spent should matter. Watching replays, or trying different builds, etc. are all things that increase skill, and I'm strongly in favor of increased skill leading to a better chance of winning. What I'm against is the concept of a chess player getting an extra pawn because he's played lots of chess (or even being able to swap knights for bishops at the start of the game, which is closer to the "different but equal" idea).

This is true. It's also a fine thing for PvE and role playing in general.

It has no place in competitive play, in my opinion. I shouldn't be able to "level" (aka grind) in any way that means I can suddenly defeat human opponents that I couldn't before. It seems clear to me that ArenaNet also feels the same way, at least in general.

If it's man vs. machine strictly for entertainment (which includes pretty much all computer RPGs per se), the man should always eventually win, or the game designers have screwed up.

But when it's man vs. man, skill should be the deciding factor (vs. grind). (I'm not trying to advocate that the better player should win every time; luck is allowed and encouraged to a moderated degree, so that the worse players always have a chance and a hope of winning, as well as the better players having to actually play better, because there's always a threat of losing.)

I guess this is where we just disagree some. I want to play a game of skill, not of grind. I don't want to win or lose and think, "Well, it's only because we/they played more PvE." I'd like to be able to have real pride in my wins, and know that my losses were my own lack of skill (or a bad day: i.e. luck), and that by increasing my skill I'll do better. I don't want to feel like, "Well, if I hunt for more Elite skills and better weapons, I'll do better." But that's how I feel right now. And at the same time, I don't want to win just because I've done that.



Here's where I always get a little confused. Why do we want to keep the so much reward in the grinding game? I'm seriously interested in replies to this, and not because I don't think they exist, I just don't know them.

It sounds like some players want to use "a better chance to win in PvP" as a reward to make people want to play more PvE. Why? Isn't PvE fun enough for people to just want to play it anyway? If it isn't, using PvP in this way doesn't sound like the right solution; make PvE more fun, instead!

I do all kinds of side quests and exploring in PvE because it's fun. I prefer a leisurely group in missions rather than just racing through. I don't think this would change if PvP was fully unlocked (unless I suddenly like PvP so much more I spent a lot of time playing that instead of PvE, but that still seems good for everyone).

I like the idea, especially if they increase the number of templates as you say (and rotate them). It does add a different skill in being able to identify templates during combat and respond appropriately, etc.

Allowing PvP play to unlock things would also be a step in the right direction, at least. Then playing chess would make you better at chess, rather than playing PvE making you better at chess.

Madan, maadan, madan...
Anyone who disagrees with you is not a liar, stupid, or has psychological issues. They are merely expressing their opinions just as you are so freely doing.
I initially felt I was being singled out, but no, you attack anyone who disagrees with you. I suspect the psychological issues are not mine, dear.

Oh yes, I called you dear because your style of writing is distinctly female, and my mistake, I assumed as such.
If you don't want this aggrievious error to occur in the future, I suggest writing in a less whiny, emotional tone. (And no I don't believe all females are that way, but many are.)
Secondly, normal well adjusted males (and some females) could care less about the many issues you whine piteously about.
Lastly, I don't take offense at any term of endearment applied to me - even if the gender is incorrect. You may refer to me as "hon" from hereforth if you feel it establishes equality?

Lastly, I am merely the first of many to pick your ill-conceived, poorly written, and non-researched "report" regarding Guild Wars apart. Lo and behold, there are many others doing the same.

Unlike your report, I enjoy the game and am still playing it. My critiques which are posted all over these forums for anyone to read are overall positive in scope.

Any fool can complain - and most do.
(Bah! I did it again~ assumed you were inferior! /apologies)
It takes a little more knowledge and patience to actually propose solutions than simply pick apart what you disagree with.

My offer to help you stands - I don't suffer from egomania or any other delusions of grandeur. I'll help anyone who asks me otherwise.
Can you say the same?
Your posts indicate otherwise.

Your pal,
Talesin

I have to say that JoDiamonds makes very convincing and solid arguments. He's convinced me, by sheer heft of his points. As to the others individuals that were very helpful, I'm going to look into punching my way through the game a bit faster. Perhaps I will be successful. I'll give the game another month and, if by then, after 60+ hours or so, if I see that I've made little progress, I'll simply stop playing.

I won't post here again. It's a general waste of time.

The side quests were simply causing me to move almost in reverse.

As to Talesin, I'll only respond this last time:

I never called you stupid.
As for your little violin play, good job. I'm sure there are many posters here, whom love GW, that will use my criticisms of the game, as a springboard towards believing your lies and manipulative comments. Your behavior in this thread is an embarrassment. But quite frankly, I don't care. It's only a game. And not a classic one, at that.



Very mature. But seriously, your "my dears" are quite queer.

No insults in these posts either:

Me being "irrational" after I opined that I didn't like the game as much as I thought I would:
On my gaming "acumen" and general intelligence:
Despite it being the first post, your affirmations on my truthfulness:
(Apparently, JoDiamonds and other posters here are liars also. I'm in good company.)

On my entire arguments and the time I spent posting:
And:

And even moreso:

On my education and writing:

I spent time grabbing these posts and reviewing them, not to swamp this thread(it was already derailed) but for two specific purposes.

1. To emphatically ask any posters with inclinations towards believing your rhetoric about my lies and insults to simply reread the courtesy and civility with which I comprised my first post, and to showcase the immature comments and underscore that none of my posts affirm the following: "GuildWars sucks." OR "GuildWars is bad." OR "XXX person is a noob/idiot/clown/ass for liking the game."

Because I think affirming any of the aforementioned is simply...well...dumb. I can't tell someone what to like. I was simply voicing my own dislikes with the game. Many of which have found root in the arguments of others.

Moreover, noone has been devastatingly convincing about their own point. I can concede that people each like their games differently but I haven't really seen arguments from individuals that shattered my conceptions(short for levelling, which I haven't really tested yet). We will see.

That said, what I never did, was state: "You like this game? You must be a stupid noob!"

To wit:

2. I also copied those posts of yours to showcase the slew of unmistakeable insults you flung in my direction as your first reply. Make no mistake. Those comments weren't in response to any "attack" of mine. Those comments, rife with ignorant insults were your first "ripostes" to a polite and harmless post. Basically, I said: "I don't like this game." and you responded by calling me everything in the book, short of using full-bore expletives that would attract moderation from the admins here.

I think it's interesting that you would affirm that I would attack you, when you fired the first salvo and did so far more often than I would. Maybe you're hoping: "Hey this guy is saying something unpopular, maybe if I slime him, more of it will stick." Immoral but a solid strategy. No doubt some people will fall for it.

A mysoginist too? Damn.

You obviously have an axe to grind with me. Probably from some corner of my past. It almost sounds like you've having fun taking shots at me but you should know every insult and attack only makes you look even more of an ass.

Learn how to deal with people. Seriously. Screwing with people, just because you can, doesn't make it justified. For all you know, I might actually be a very decent person and making an avalanche of ignorant comments, wrapped in pretty words, doesn't make you sound intelligent. The content is just as important as the conveyance.

To the rest of the posters that were so helpful, thanks a lot. I won't lie by stating that you encouraged me to try the game again. But other forums and their participants did and certainly, some valuable insight and strategy was gained here. For those that were polite, honest and mature, regardless of their POV, I'd like to thank you for your time.

Posting in this forum, due to it's "noise" level is pointless for me. Good luck with your game. Enjoy.

Ciao.

Adios amigo!

Heheh, I hope it's clear that most of my crazy talk is a little tongue in cheek. :P


I was using the template-only thing as an illustrative example of "absolute fairness" without giving everything away.
Another, more fun idea would be to further divide the skill set, into "core" and "locked" stuff. Core stuff, for example, all of the pre and post searing ascalon skills, minor runes, basic (eg. 1/-1 vampiric, etc.) weapon mods, etc, would all be unlocked from the start. They are also available to be used on "template-only" arenas. The rest, "locked" stuff, have to be pved for as usual.


Heheh, maybe it comes from the notion that some people are consistently luckier than others, so that "luck" seems to be a natural talent for them. And natural talent is part of skill.

It seems like you have a fairly competitive-purist attitude to things, which is ok. Since I play a lot of fight games, I'll make another fight game analogy.

There are some fight games where skill is paramount. Anyone who knows what they're doing, even just a little, will cream anyone who doesnt. (eg. Virtua Fighter 4). In opposition to that, there are some games where "button-mashing" can often get you a lucky win against a skilled opponent who gets careless or is caught by surprise. (Eg. Dead or Alive 2.)

The difference of opinion here we have is how much of a factor non-skill/non-strategy elements (ie. Grind, Luck, Surprise factor) should play in victory. My preferred amount seems to higher than yours - I think it's more "fun" to have a more unpredictable game. (RTS analogy - I prefer C&C Generals to Starcraft. It's totally broken at extreme competitive level, but casual players can mess around and still have a chance of a crazy or lucky win.)

I guess to put it in perspective, let's divide the population into 4 levels of skill, from 1- total n00b to 4- korean psychos. I'd prefer that non-skill factors of grinding, luck, and wierdness (All e/w team! w00t!) have enough of an impact to allow people to compete on an even footing with groups 1 skill level higher than them, that are lacking in those non-skill factors.


You see - that's where there's a subtle difference between what we enjoy. I like PVP too, but as an extension of the RPG elements. I like to feel that, as I play PVE and get skills and stuff, that I'm becoming "more powerful" (otherwise, what's the point?). There's a certain joy in getting a new skill and going "Finally! Aftershock! Now I can make my ultimate Earth knockdown build in the arenas! Mwahahaha!" that wouldn't be there if I simply had it straight away. It's the spice in my PVE life.
There's also a certain fun in getting plastered by other people who do cool things that you arent able to do yet. A sort of "OMG! He's using Aftershock! That's so cool! I sooo want that skill...."
It's the carrot in my PVE life.

So you can see how, properly done, the two parts of PVE and PVP can benefit each other for people like me, not be totally seperate or detract from each other. Your thoughts?

Madan,

I really don't think you were looking for any type of reasonable discussion to begin with... I mean who are you kidding?

You are handy with the quote bar, but you are just as bad and disrespectful. Are we supposed to believe that you have taken the moral high road on all of these posts?

My, my. After reading through and scanning most of this thread I find Mr/Ms. Madan, as I am left unsure, to be quite a fool. She (I'm going to go with that) spends 90% of her time defending her ridiculously biased and inexperienced-based "review". She then responds to any criticism with brash and spiteful defense and takes everything as a personal attack. She clearly is one of those "bad" players as she wrote the review after 25 hours stuck at level 10 still in the wastelands of the searing.

She also claims that each level would take you 5 hours! This is utterly false. level 19--->20 took me far less than that, 3 at the most. This person is what I would call a troll. She is not looking for help and is just one of those people who refuses to be wrong. I'm glad that she has left us and I hope the other forums enjoy her company. Although shes one of those people that thinks someone likes them and then as soon as they are gone people are talking about her.

This is just my opinion, and according to her those cannot be wrong, that is as long as it's her opinion, since she continuously told other people that their opinions were blatantly wrong and then said she had to be right because opinions were never wrong!!

I cannot forget how she flaunted her MBA!! Big deal, lady! You can tell that she thinks she knows everything, probably a fresh college grad as people like that tend to be very "wise" in their ways. I would hate to be her co-worker she reminds me of Ms. Omirossa(sp?) from the apprentice.

If you were wondering my post is conjured completely out of my dislike for this person based on her posts.

This would definitely help some, at least. I still find it weird when I unlock minor or major runes that I've already unlocked the superiour runes for. =)

Fair enough. And to be clear, my issue is skill vs. grind, not skill vs. luck. I have no problem with luck being a significant factor, as long as skill is pretty obvious in the long run. Think of it as being like poker. Anyone might be able to win a hand against the best poker player in the world. But if you played again and again and again, eventually it would be clear who the good players are and aren't.

I'm all in favor of luck allowing games to swing, because it's important to make the skilled players fear losing and give hope to the ... less skilled players. (I don't think I'm very good at GuildWars, for what it's worth.) It's highly debatable how much luck should factor into it, and it's kind of a vague thing anyway.

There are some more general things that can swing games that I'd like to see too, such as more varied win conditions for maps, and more powerful environmental changes that parties would need to adapt for. This would also force parties to not find one magical, super powerful strategy and stick to it. Some examples:

• PvP battlegrounds where various Ranger spirits are present at the start (but of course you don't know that beforehand).
• Battlegrounds with great fog where players can't see as far as they can shoot.
• Extra lava, or random lightning strikes, or random monsters entering the map
• Random events taking place during the match, such as one party member being automatically ressurected for each team, or all characters getting +5% morale all of a sudden, or all players suddenly being poisioned.

That kind of thing is a lot of fun, and is a good kind of randomness, in my humble opinion. It keeps players on their toes, and encourages bringing a variety of skills and solutions to the dance. (To some extent, I like the idea that an extremely focused group could be really thrown off by random happenings that wouldn't affect a well rounded group as much.)

(For what it's worth, I had written another post about this general subject a short while back:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=23406 )

I'm less happy to lose and think it's just because someone else spent more time or money. As a sometimes professional Collectible Card Game player, I'm pretty familiar with the notion that spending more money translates into an increased chance of winning. I find it distasteful, and the grind for powerful items and skills in GuildWars reminds me of it heavily.

Yeah, I guess I just want my PvP separated more from PvE. I follow that whole line of reasoning fine, and I do the same thing ... but I don't want it to spill into PvP, mostly. When I get new skills in PvE, it is exciting.

And it does still happen in PvP, it's just different. Your skill does increase through playing, and it's awesome when the light suddenly dawns. It happens in PvE too, for what it's worth: It took me an embarrassingly long time to figure out that my healer shouldn't just be running away from monsters in PvE, but should be dragging them onto my teammates so the monster will stop chasing me. But when I figured it out (without having read it on a forum ;), it was pretty awesome.

So I feel like it's still there for me, in PvP, it's just a different "thing", besides items, skills, etc.

I think I understand the idea, and it might really be the best thing for GuildWars to keep a system like it is now. Because there's proably more players who prefer it that way. I just don't like it as much personally. ;)

(Upon all this reflection, it's probably mostly because of the distasteful CCG experiences, where other players outright spend more money and have better decks. It's not that I never did the same thing myself, much as I probably will keep doing some grinding in GuildWars to get myself on "equal footing", it's just that I'll never like doing it, or the feeling that's necessary.)

My apologies to the original poster for the sour nature of this board's population.

Please don't apologize for me. I meant what I said. If you feel the need to look superior to everyone by apologizing for their actions do it somewhere else.

hmm well I have to aggree with the original poster, i really like this game at the begining of it all, but now am very bored of it. My biggest thing is character development and rping which there is none of in this game. Yea I know you can do your skills thing but that is really not character development in the true sense, I guess Im one of those stat junkines and I like to develop my character over a long period of time. I just found this game to get very repetative, noone is really better than anyone at this game cause everyone wins and loses at pvp which after 100 rounds is the same thing over and over again, no real reward for pvp. Then the whole guild thing got screwed up somewhere along the lines cause there are just too many, too many small ones and whatnot so theres no real "guildwars". Its too linear for my tastes I like huge explorable worlds ones that if i didnt feel like combating one day I dont have to and can still have fun. I play everquest (6yrs) and there are some days I wouldnt log off cause I can sit and roleplay with people, go help newbies out, drink with friends at a pub etc etc...this game to me, If I cant find a group or whatever i dont feel the need to stay logged in and now the days are growing longer and longer for me not logging in at all. I guess I just like the more traditional "living world" MMO's. This one is just basically a coop single player game. The items and weapons are nothing special, theres really no big challenging mobs to beat that drop special stuff etc and I like all that. Everything is just equal and watered down to me here no "spice" at all. Maybe when expansions come out it will change, but until then its time for me to rest this one upon the shelf and play something different, an mmo where i have STR, STA,INT,LUCK,DEX etc etc. take care all Rubies of Eventide anyone? lol.....Aidu

"""And no, you haven't proven that my OPINION is wrong. Opinions can't be proven wrong. That's why, they're like, opinions."""

Hmmm. What if one holds the opinion that the world is flat?

I would have to agree with PrimeHealer for the most part, although, my feelings are not quite as strong as what his appear to be.

I also like traditional MMOs where your character is unique enough but not necessarily uber. I have a lot of fun building my character and finding rare items. The problem is that I don't have time to spend 3-4 hours a day like in current MMORPGs. I like the fact that I can play 1-2 hrs of GW and feel satified. As someone said, GW is great for the more casual gamer. It sounds like this may be a contradition, but I think you can add more traditonal MMO aspects and still be geared for the casual gamer. To a certain degree, this can only be fully realized through truly persistent worlds found in WoW or EQ2. I understand this and what A.net is trying to stray away from. A.Net wants to create a niche for themselves, after all, they are in the business of making money.

Don't get me wrong, I am enjoying the game very much. I still haven't completed it, so there is much to do and much to explore. I think RP players deserve more unique rewards than what is currently offered. The RP content was critical for GW to attract customers, who for the most part, come from an RPG background. Many people keep stressing that the name "Guild Wars", means just that-Guild vs. Guild" -, however, the RP/PvE side of the game is the "glue" that keeps this game together.

Well, that's the way I see it. You may agree to disagree.

It seems to me that Madan was pretty much just trolling.

It's one thing to express a negative opionion of the game, it's another to stick around and continually fan the flames.

Someone please get a mod to lock this thread.