Air Magic v. Fire Magic

I am playing an El/Me, but I am debating between Air and Fire magic. I like Air magic's ability to knock down and blind foes. The lightning is also good against armored enemies. Aside from setting foes on fire for a few seconds, does Fire magic offer anything better than Air magic? Thanks.

well from wut i have read..it seems that fire magic generally does more dmg..and i think it usually does dmg/sec...and it can also do dmg to a group..so me personally would choose fire over wind..BUT..ive also never played i would jsut pick it over it cuz of wut i have read

I would also choose fire magic just because in any RPG I've always had fire magic because it is usually stronger!

In short:

In PVE, fire magic can be really good, as monsters will stand dumbly in your Firestorms, and other "lasting" AoE spells.

In PVP, fire sucks, as opponents have some brains (well, not all, but the good ones), and therefore they won't stick together for your AoE's neither stand inside them for long.
So air is much better for PVP.

Tall Dude : I'm sure this signature breaks every rule ever conceived about signature lengths...even breaks common sense, if you ask me...

Like Xma has said, Fire is good in PvE where it's impossible to fire off a spell and not hit several enemies at once. Fire loses some of its effectiveness in PvP as experienced players are quite prepared against Fire attacks due to just how popular they are.

Then again, don't underestimate the ability to set people on fire, setting someone on fire is one of the most powerful (and horrific) DoT's out there.

I really like the damage output of fire but I'm moving to Air to gain some defenseive skills (Blinding Flash, knockdowns, etc).

Xma: your post about fire is true for Fire Storm and Meteor Shower, but what about Fireball and Phoenix? Those are spells you can't "run out of" and do a large amount of damage.

Air is the winner.

Dred, air is used for a more 1on1 experience and isn't near so helpful when you have more than one enemy (general speaking). Fire, is more popular, that should show you something. As it stands now, fire is more powerful damage maker, air is a more powerful disruptor. So if your going for damage against groups fire, only individual targets air, and disrupting air (if the only choices are air and fire).

Lansing Kai Don

P.S. I find fire more useful personally, but I'm a PvE'er

i think, as others have stated, that air is probably best for pvp

That most people are not very good at the game?

Play a spellcaster against an air elementalist. Get a scary balance warning due to a critical hit from Lightning Orb and you'll understand why lightning is better for PvP. On the other hand, for PvE, I tend to like fire AoE for faster kill.

Ha ha ! Nash is haunted by Cicciro's spirit.

Barrage > Air and Fire

unfortunately

How bad did rangers take a hit from not being able to use conjure (sort of) last beta?

Spells don't have critical hits. They have no variation in their damage at all.

Lightning Orb is a hit or miss projectile, so maybe its one of the few spells that factors in body hits i.e. he got a headshot.

There are no headshots. Well, you can hit the head, but it does thw same damage regardless.

Except that most people use the headgear that gives 1+ to attribute with lower armour value.

Thanks for your help. Air does have some group attacks such as Chain Lightning. Is anyone esle planning to play an air magic El/Me?

Right, that's one of the reasons why Rangers fighting on higher ground get a damage bonus.

Not really, the non-attribute ones have the same AL value.

Based on some forums I've read, I thought it was something like:
FIRE: AoE-attacks (more then one target, but lesser dmg per target then Air)
AIR: One Target Spells (only one target a time, but stronger then fire)
WATER: Movement Impairment Spells
EARTH: Defensive Spells

I'm thinking about starting an Air Mage (maybe call it Nike or something ) Cause if I decide to play a Mage, I'll be a decent one and stay as far from the big bundle of melee-fighters as possible. And with AoE-spells you would need to be close to the actual fight....

Fire is, hands down, the weakest element in the game. It's slow, expensive, and the damage does not stack up well to what you get from the other lines. It isn't even best at its supposed strength, big, AoE nukes - just compare Meteor to Earthquake, Searing Heat to Eruption. Make no mistake, fire skills, in general, are pretty bad.

What Fire does have going for it is depth. Earth and Water, despite having significantly better offensive skills, don't have the raw number of ranged nukes to be able to chain cast an offense in PvE. Air is not as impressive in a PvE environment - it is at its best in focus fire situations against high defense targets, making it a decent PvP line but a more niche PvE line. So, basically, until an expansion or two comes out and gives Earth or Water a bit more offensive depth, Fire will be playable in PvE.

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I would not say that Barrage is better than the Elementalist. Barrage, on its own, is an excellent skill that deals decent damage and turns your attack into AoE, but it's naturally limited by the speed of your bow, and it prevents you from using preparations which is a non-trivial disadvantage. On the other hand, I will say that Tiger's Fury singlehandedly obsolesces the Elementalist.

Elementalists are naturally limited to roughly 50 DPS to a single target - burst, that is. The textbook skill for this is the level 16 Lightning Orb, which when tossed at a level 20 caster will deal 137 damage after armor penetration, for a net damage per cast time of 49.8. Immolate sits at 51.4 (with a bit of DoT), Stoning at 54.3, and Water Trident chalks in at 42.3 DPS - again, all with 16 attributes.

Rangers can buff stack, and while I think this has been fixed such that it's no longer at problem levels, it's still a solid strategy that you should seriously look at. A normal bow shot, at 12 attribute, should deal roughly 29 damage to a casting target - merely 14.5 DPS with a short or flatbow. With Read the Wind and Power Shot, this can kick you up to around 35 DPS with those specific attacks, though you are going to lose a good deal of time on setting up Read the Wind which drops you down to around 30 DPS overall. Barrage is good for 21 DPS in an area and can't be stacked with preps - add Conjure to any of these for a boost of roughly 5 DPS at the cost of your secondary class and pretty much all of your attributes.

Basically, a damaging Ranger, between buff stacking and attack skills, tops out at around 30-35 DPS, which is perfectly reasonable when Elementalists are dishing out 50.

Add Tiger's Fury.

Tiger's Fury lets you attack 33% faster at a trivial drawback. This translates into a 50% boost in actual damage output - the game actually subtracts 33% from each swing time. This kicks the Ranger's DPS numbers up into Elementalist ranges. Instead of 30-35 DPS to a single target, a Tiger's Fury Ranger will be dishing out 45-52 DPS. In an AoE, Barrage won't be dealing 21 DPS - it'll be dealing 32 (which, coincidentally, is what a level 16 Fireball does). Tiger's Fury turns a damage dealing Ranger into a faster, more efficient, more flexible Elementalist. In short, Tiger's Fury is the single biggest balance problem in the game, and if you aren't using it on your Rangers you need to seriously question your build-making skills.

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The popularity of fire speaks to perceptions, not reality. People think that fire is good, that it should be good, at dealing out large amounts of damage quickly, and play it/advocate it accordingly. That doesn't make it true. Simply put, fire is an acceptable line for PvE where there are frequently clumps of monsters that stand in AoEs - it can find success simply because there are enough damage skills that recycles don't catch up to fire the same way they do with earth and water. But Elementalists are already on the fringes of usefulness due to Tiger's Fury, and fire as a line is one or two earth or water skills away from becoming useless. In the long term, fire is likely due for a boost, but that isn't going to happen until people stop looking at what lines should do, and instead at what they actually do.

Peace,
-CxE

My E/Me was Air and Water magic based. I never liked fire much. The reason for fire's popularity is that people see it is high in damage and assume that it is the best because of this. It takes little experience to use the basic fire spells properly, and it is the best element for PvE. My current elementalist is purely Water (and Death magic) now, but I like to experiment and change builds a lot. Try both, or maybe even a combination. You won't know how good either is for you until you test both out.

And I say Tiger's Fury sucks, Ensign, but that's cause my main is a R/W

I'm a Monk/Elementalist and Whirlwind, in particular, gives me a much needed second or two breather when I'm getting surrounded. Plus, it makes that cool "snickt" noise.

This is just me. But I've had reasonable success with a fire build.

But I was running fire attunement, glyph of energy, glyph of lesser energy.

After that, it was mark of rodgart (burn baby burn!), and 4 reasonably quick recycling skills... I think one of them was rodgarts invocation, fireball, phoenix, and immolate. And I was able to keep casting for an eternity (glyph means the 25 energy's are 10 total... and well the fire attunement gets you 8 back for completing the spell). And that's 3 glyphs every 30 seconds.

The point wasn't to be the peak DPS king... but to maintain a constant AoE barrage on an area with reasonablly good DPS (easily on par with a ranger) against a single target. And with mark of rodgart on the target... that constant burning feeling definatley didn't help him (-7 pips constantly is 14dps in itself... disregarding the setup and recycle times).

I've also seen people go nuts with the PB AoE fire...
Phoenix, lava font, inferno, flame burst... though this is also a energy hog.. Works decently with Aura of Restoration/Fire attunement/ether renewal (arcane echo the renewal if you can). Between restoration and renewal... you'll regenerate a lot of health despite being in the middle of it all.

But lightning is definately better for single target damage.

Fire- good vs lot of weak enemies
Air- good vs one strong enemy

The only reason to use fire in PvP is the DoT and area control... while there are other things that can do it better.

Water is the most balanced line within the 4 elements in my view.
Earth can also pack quite a punch, but generally see as more supportive.

I haven't played the game yet, but I'm hoping to on the BETA weekend that's coming up (15th, 16th, 17th, I think), I've preorded! I was reading up on Air Magic and just fell in love with it all the moment I read it.

Before I read about Air Magic, I thought it'd be cool to use lightning. I saw all those elementalist videos and all it was was fire. I think fire is boring... lightning is so much cooler, but that's just my opinion.

I'm definitely going to go for air magic with my elementalist. I'm not really sure for a secondary class though. I want my primary to be elementalist, but I really don't have a clue for a secondary! I'm thinking probably either Mesmer or Ranger...

Quiet, we want fire players.

We do? If noone plays Fire maybe it will get some attention and get boosted back to usable levels.

Won't happen, the 4 lines are completely different. Even if fire gets boosted back, earth and water needs it's changes. Water is still below-competitive use, and Earth relies on 1-2 moves. It's too big of a change to make elementalist useful.

Take Tiger's Fury out of the game and the Elementalist is instantly useful.

I'm serious.

Peace,
-CxE

More that a little eager to spread the word of your discovery eh, Ensign?

I admit that Ele spells need a buff over all, but you're measuring at dps, something that Warriors and Rangers should exceed over Eles anyway.

I'm guessing he's talking about the power of ranger/ele.

I just think that it's amusing when a single skill is so abusive that it's the difference between a class being useful and marginal.


Er, ok...so what exactly do you see Elementalists being good at if they're going to suck at burst damage as well?

Peace,
-CxE

Personally I vote for fixing up the fire line give AoE the ability to be ground targeted so you can get more targets and mabye the ability to delay the actual invokation of the spell i.e. stay in casting mode till the time is right to fire it off.

I like tigers fury :/ would hate to see my builds get nerfed on the other hand I never want to see a skill be a requirement for a class.

Oh, too bad, because if you don't want to see a skill be a requirement, your going to have to wait for them to tweak it for awhile :P they can't make it perfect in a day.

On the side note, since they nerfed Frenzy, I wonder if they will put Tigers Fury at 25%. Would that satisfy you Ensign?

Well, you don't have a choice.

In my experience throughout the BETA's since WPE. The skills available to you in the beginning that are worth it is all fire. And it is usally Firestorm - which you obtain right out the door ...

Air Magic skills have traditionally been unlocked later in the missions at higher levels.

I am also glad Ensign is back in the game (forums), I throrughly enjoy reading his viewpoints. I always get a good idea out of his posts.

Damage wise, I expect Eles to deal big damage, now. When I'm calling for a target to be killed via spike damage, I expect my Eles to be taking much larger chunks out of the enemy than any of my other team mates could do in that instance.

As for Tiger's Fury being a make or break skill, then what do you suggest to solve this? Removing/nerfing/elitifying it will only encourage people to jump onto the Warrior profession for Frenzy, as they did Ele for Conjures. It may not have the potential to be as good as Tiger's Fury, but you aren't pumping lots of points into a skill line that chances are you'll only be using one skill from, meaning the Ranger player can now dump more points into his skill lines that matter.

Edit: at the time of this writing, I was unaware of the recent nerf to Frenzy, though my points essentially remains the same.

Right, Elementalists should deal better damage over short timeframes, while Rangers and Warriors should deal better damage over the long haul - once cooldowns and energy costs become relevant and everyone isn't just chain-casting their best damage skills.

The problem is that Elementalists *do not* deal better damage than Rangers over short timeframes. On the contrary, over very short timeframes (~5 seconds) Rangers and Elementalists have virtually identical damage profiles - as summed up with their identical burst damage numbers. The difference, of course, is that the Elementalist quickly runs out of steam, while the Ranger can keep going for quite a while due to Expertise and naturally cheaper skills.

The only advantage Elementalists have is that their damage comes in bigger chunks, and thus they are the class of the one-hit kill. If you aren't going to drop a target in one shot, use a Ranger - they're just plain better.


I'm not sure. The skill was perfectly reasonable before Expertise started affecting stances, but now that it does Tiger's Fury can effectively be run continuously. Unlike other speed buffs it has a drawback that rarely comes into play - who cares about your non-attack skills when your character is a machine gun?

I don't think eliting it would solve anything. The skill is powerful enough that it'd still get run in a majority of builds, you'd still have Ranger machine guns that beat up on Elementalists, and you'd have destroyed a lot of diversity in the process. Tiger's Fury doesn't need Barrage or Poison Arrow to squeeze out Elementalists, just normal Power Shots and Penetrating Attacks.

Tiger's Fury needs a drawback that seriously cuts into the strengths of a Ranger, much as how Frenzy destroys the defenses of a Warrior. Personally, I'd like to see it chew up energy, since energy efficiency is the hallmark of the Ranger. But there's a lot of flexibility in how to tone down the skill.

Honestly the best way to nerf Tiger's Fury is to nerf Expertise. If the Ranger had to pay anything resembling a reasonable amount of energy for Tiger's Fury you'd see it's use start to hurt, like it did back when you had to pay 10 and it was considered unplayable.


This of course implies that Frenzy is a balanced skill in and of itself, something that is still open to debate despite all the nerfs it has gotten. +50% damage isn't something to toss away lightly.

The thing I like about Frenzy is that while it kicks you up to Elementalist damage levels, it also leaves you as vulnerable as an Elementalist. For a class like the Warrior that relies on extending deep into opposing territory to deal its damage, that's a potentially deadly drawback. I still think it's a must-have for Warriors and that the proper course of action is to carry another stance to cancel Frenzy in case things turn deadly, but it is at least somewhat reasonable.

I would like to see Tiger's Fury stay good enough to still be the speed buff of choice for Rangers, but I'm not sure that's possible while still remaining remotely fair. Frenzy is pretty bloody good. They could make it elite and I'd run it over pretty much every Warrior elite in PvP (the lone exception being Flourish.)


Well, most Rangers only pump Beastmastery to 4 (3 +1 Rune), so it isn't like they're sacrificing a whole lot of APs to use the skill. If it was in an actually good attribute line (like any of the others) the skill would be absolutely nuts, with a 9-10 second duration instead of the customary 7. Rangers are extremely energy tight, you mess with that balance at all and they start to fall apart.

Which is why I'm advocating hitting Tiger's Fury there. Even something innocuous like 'lose one energy every time you attack' would have serious consequences for Ranger builds.

Peace,
-CxE

I see Air magic as more of a way reduce attacks from characters. Fire magic deals more damage than air magic. There is no way air magic can deal the dps fire can. All you do is cast conjure flame them immolate/ mind burn then keep casting flare with maybe a fireball every once and awhile. I don't know why people keep saying that fire is all about AOE spells. There is only one AOE fire spell that is usefull and it is fire storm and that is the only AOE spell I use and I am considering not using it in pvp. So fire is good without AOE. Also being set on fire is by far one of the worst conditions to have on you, -7 degain bars is devistating.

So go with Air if you want to slow your opponents attack and go with Fire if you want the largest dps.

Blatant untruth.


21 DPS with max damage wand attacks. Identical to what you get from Conjure Lightning.


Excellent skill. Comparable to Lightning Orb if your team isn't hogging the DoT.


27 DPS. Complete waste of energy - use Conjure + Wand for 21 DPS and save your energy. Nowhere near what you get from skills like Lightning Strike (39 Burst DPS) or even Lightning Javelin (38.5 Burst DPS).


Decent AoE damage - 31.7 Burst DPS. Slow and expensive, but useful when you can catch multiple targets. But that's when Fire is better than Air, anyway.


Because Fire has one playable non-AoE skill - Immolate. Flare and Mind Burn are trash, and Conjure is available to all of the other lines. As Immolate isn't notably better than Lightning Orb, the comparison comes down to other skills and, surprise, Fire has to go AoE.


20 DPS, and it puts a cap on DoT elsewhere on your team. Use on a bleeding target and any other DoT you might want to use is heavily neutralized.

20 DPS isn't scary. A focused target during heavy combat sees 150, 200 DPS easily. 20 is just a drop in the bucket, a nice little add-on but nothing to get excited about.


As far as attacking a single target goes, Fire has the worst DPS - Obsidian Flame, Water Trident, and Lightning Orb are all better than Immolate for single target takedown, and the other lines have better backup - Stoning, Lightning Strike, Shard Storm, etc. AoEs make the Fire line, and if those aren't making the cut you need to be looking at the other lines.

Peace,
-CxE