The art of drawing aggro

Hey all,

I'm playing a W/Mo right now, and am attempting to learn the fine art of tanking. I can draw aggro to myself when there's not too many monsters running at us, but when it reaches five or six, there's always a few that get by me.

Here's what I try to do.

1) Let the ranger draw aggro. If there is no ranger (argh..), I'll usually walk up just until my aggro bar hits one of the monsters, then I'll run back about 50 feet or so so as to avoid drawing other monsters. By this time my party is still behind me, preferably quite a bit.

2) Once monsters start running up to me, I try to bump into them as much as possible. If I'm by myself, however, I can't block them completely, and usually a few will always go by me and attack the monk or the other squishies. This is annoying, because typically 2 or so WILL stick to me, so I don't want to run back and draw even MORE hate to the squishies.

3) Very often, monsters will teleport a little bit just as they get near me, and completely go through me. This seems rather poor prediction on Anet's servers' part, but it's very annoying when it happens.

In short, I'm trying to find some way to get ALL the monsters to come tank me, rather than gank the squishies.
I've found that dealing damage to them usually makes them mad, so I'll try to turn on Balthazar's Aura beforehand, but this really is a waste of energy and damage if you do it that way.

There's gotta be an easier way to draw that aggro all to myself? Sometimes a party member will attack before monsters are locked on to me, which is what causes it, but even if the party just stands there, the mobs will aggro the monk.

Am I doing something wrong? Need tips from fellow warriors.

Thanks!

Creston

Generally, having the ranger pull is best...

What I like to do to pull is take a longbow (range>aggro circle) and fire it at one of the monsters. Then that mob will attack (preferably me, in which case I throw up whirling defense), and I find it to be more precise when trying to pull a single mob (sometimes, your aggro circle will "clip" a second mob, and this is no good )

A party trying to use AoE and such neeed a good tank.

The good tank (singular...) groups the foes up. he does this by engaging them at a distance of about the aggro circle's radius ahead of the party. Seeing nobody else, the enemy will flock to him. If there is a pesky healer type, the warrior walks dragging the group along, next to the healer/caster. This is amazingly effective. In some missions there are items like a staff or torch or crystal or seed which must be carried. dumb parties give this to the healer, since he doesn't need his weapon out. These items draw aggro like nothing else, and belong on a warrior. Use it to pull the aggro. With one of these items you don't need to be as far ahead, just carry it, let them mob you then drop it and begin hacking away.


The worst tanking is generally done by multiple warriors, who each intercept someone coming into the group. This results in at least two pockets of fighting, probably more since some will get by the warriors. People don't seem to realise that they can bring enemies together, or that you can force enemies surrounding you into a better conformation by taking a step or two and getting them aligned in front of you.

Best (of the worst) is when the tanks each get a pocket, and so does a squishy character (typically the monk), who then runs around all over dying, instead of dragging the enemy into the AoE or over to a warrior who could peel it off by aggroing it/hamstring - oh, and then the tank in the AoE sees the running monk, and takes off after him, dragging all the enemies out of the AoE. And into a patrol most likely.

Tanking is an art, and it is best done by one tank.

that is hwy ou need a good ranger

best aggroers in the game are rangers if they are played correctly

Much simpler for the warrior to simply equip a longbow, plink an enemy, then reequip his stuff and proceed.

Epinephrine said most everything that needed to be said about drawing agro. Make sure the rest of the party keeps the warrior outside their agro circle, the warrior draws the enemy in with a bow (flatbows work best), and the casters wait until ALL the drawn mosters are hitting the warrior before they start attacking.

The number one reason a warrior can't tank or looses agro is the casters getting impaitent and attacking early. If the casters can wait that extra second before engaging it makes all the difference in the world.

An contrary to popular opinion, a warrior with a bow makes the best puller of a group since they WANT to get attacked.

seems to me that a ranger makes the better puller as long as the warriors stand behind him. pretty simple ranger pulls a mob then rins behind the warrior. no need to switch out weapons etc.

not a hard concept.

couldnt have said it better Rothgar. Equip a bow for pulling. Stay at ahead of your party and out of their aggro bubble. Pull 1 group let them all pound on you when you have everyones attention and they are all beating on you you should still be fine you are a tank and can heal yourself till the monk can come in with the rest of your party to kill the monsters. Big thing here make sure your team knows WHY you are staying ahead and that you are pulling only 1 group of aggro to yourelf that way they dont think you are running crazy and trying to be superman.

When I pull with my longbow, all the monsters are poisoned by the time they get within melee range.

The thing is your adding in more complication into the mix with a Ranger drawing.

First you have the monsters seeing the ranger first, then you have the ranger running backwards, and then you have the monsters retargetting the warrior.

With a warrior your skip the last two steps and don't have to worry about the ranger running far enough away to break agro, or not running far enough and leading all the monsters right for all your squishy casters.

The only advantage of having a Ranger draw is that his first shot can do more damage then a warriors first shot. This advantage is of limited use since the second all the monsters are grouped up on the warrior your group can AOE the snot out of all of them.

Yes, but when they get within melee range, their all targeting you, not the tank. Now the ranger has the second best armor in the game, so yes, they can tank, but why when you have a real warrior (with the best armor in the game) that wants to do his job?

[Plus the thread is about how a warrior can draw agro the best, so the Ranger vs Warrior pulling is a bit off topic.]

There is a pretty good thread floating around this board or another board about positioning. Trust me when I say positioning is everything. 90% of the time you can get the mobs your not beating on to stand there and drool on each other, because the AI is telling them to get to the "Squishies" as you call them but can't because of objects in the area like a boulder, or a hole that is not passable etc.

If you see several mobs behind a mountain you know you can pull around the edge, keep your hencies as close to the wall of the mountain as possible. When they do agro they will take the shortest route, often times RIGHT next to the mountain wall, if your standing there they often times can't pass and will either ignore you until you start doing damage to them, or start attacking the closest thing to them which is you. If your not using henchies it's even easier since several spells and especially healing spells don't requre Line of Sight (LoS).

Keep the terrain you mind everytime you pull, blocking the mobs with your toon, or an object, can stop a lot of melee and spell damage if the mobs you pull are positioned right.

Same here with my WA/RA apply poison, shot mob one at a time while they run at you, switch to weaponset 2, hit trollunguent, take my beatings, hit troll unguent, party gets in range hit troll unguent, monsters are all dead and not a single ranged attacker was touched. Granted a ranger using whirling defense can do this with lowere level mobs but the areas after ascension the mobs deal to much damage to fast for a rangers weaker armor to deal with even with whirling defense.

I play a war/mo. I was in a Riverside mission group to Sanctum Cay last night with 3 warrrios, 2 monks, and one necro. We did have 1 main tank pulling and the rest of us stood back out of agro range. Once the main tank managed to pull a group of mobs to him, we start assisting him. Occasionally, 1 or 2 mobs would filter through and go after our monks. As the third warrior, I usually wait to assist attack in case mobs get through and start ganking our monks. I would then intercept these mobs and get aggro. The other 2 wars and necro just keep pounding our initial target till dead and then come back to engage my mob. We did this all night with no problems.

My question is:
1) Did I do this right by engaging the mob and just keeping it away from our healers with the classes we have for this mission?
2) Should I have engaged and agro'd these mobs and then dragged them close to our main tank so as to group them together, even though we didn't have AoE nukers?
3) Should I have left the monks to fend for themselves while I assist our main tank's initial target?

You were spot on this is a good tactic to use when in a group thats warrior heavy

In my opinion you were doing the correct thing. The reasoning behind this is that a warrior's armor is superior to that of a caster for the majority of damage types so any time a warrior takes damage rather then a caster, the right thing is being done. This also has the side effect of allowing the monk to use less energy in healing the damage, so your primary tank can get more heals, keeping him alive, and the monsters off the other members of the group.

A warrior should not try and do number 2, since Guild War's monsters are very quick to lose retarget someone easyer to kill then a warrior. Now it is possible to drag a monster into an AOE or into the main group when the warrior surrounded by casters in the party, but I would consider it an advanced tactic that takes some finess, I personally don't try and attempt it unless I think it will effect the outcome of the battle.

In most situtations I would consider number 3 the worse thing to do, IF you have the monster already attacking you. However, I find that most casters will stand there and take the hits rather then moving around the warrior so to get the monster retargetted on the warrior (stupid, stupid casters, can't even get away from the damage). If the casters refuse to be smart and drop the monsters off on you then the most helpful thing the warrior can do is finish off the main target since killing things quicker reduces the amount of damage your party takes.

Wow. Excellent thread. Let me summarize:

- A single warrior (ideally using a bow) is the one generating the "clumping" circle. If there is one tank, everone knows the routine and the healer's job is much easier since they can use high-powered buffs (shield of regeneration, mark of protection, healing seed).

- All other team members should stay out-of range untill the circle has been setup. Elementalists, in particular, should _wait_ till the circle is formed before starting casting -- patience pays dividends.

As a healer, I never join PuGs with more than one warrior. It is a good sign that the PuG will fail and you'll have that healer running in circles trying to keep people happy.

That said, if you have 2 coordinated tanks... that play well with each other,
they can make a serious wall-of-meat and are even more effective than one tank. At high levels, they can put their backs to each other (one faces E the other W) and both get the shield advantage. However, well-coordinated tanks are something you typically only get in a group formed via guild members.

Yes, excellent advice. When I play my warrior (Wa/Ne) toon, I use enfeebling blood instead of a flat bow. The opposing tanks are then all cursed by me, so they rush to me to attack. Rather than attacking right away, I spend the next few seconds looking for opposing team warriors that look like they are going to sail-by and not clump around me. To them I cast a parasitic bond -- that usually changes their direction back to me, unless a caster has attacked them.

I'd not call it 'aggro', I'd call it 'clump'. The 'aggro' is when you accidently pull more than one group at a time -- its a mess. The word 'clump' gets the point across much more clearly, you want to cluster all of the opposing team tanks around you.

A 'wilderness survival' ranger can tank quite well. Let me explain. When you engage foes, they break into two groups -- the casters who stay back and hit you with ranged attacks; and the warriors that rush up to beat on you. A ranger is quite resillent to the range attackers; so, you could engage like this:

1. The ranger moves up, creates traps, and attacks the opposing team's warrior(s), who rush up. The ranger then buffs 'evade' and other anti-tank buffs. A ranger/necro could use enfeebling blood to ensure that incoming tanks are not effective.

2. The entire team takes out the opposing team's warriors. In the mean time, the Ranger is being hit _hard_ by the opposing team's casters. But this is only temporary. The Ranger's good elemental AC (esp. with lightning bonus) makes them even more "survivable" than a warrior for this purpose.

3. After the warriors are dead; the team converges on the opposing team's casters/rangers.

Enfeebling blood + shield of regeneration or mark of protection works wonders. With the exception of the very last mission (/w those hands), you can eliminate the tanks early and then focus on the casters.

That said.... a Wa/Ra is the best kind of tank. They have strength/tactics for defensive stances, plus wilderness for traps, uguent. Plus poison arrows (as you mentioned) for starting the fight. If you've got a necromancer to use enfeebling blood, this makes them drop even faster.

The best way to pull is actually to have a W with a simple, cheap longbow, and make him pull.
Take the aggro on him, and the longbow has the max range.
Simple.

_Zexion

I'd still prefer to have a warrior tanking because they can do so the most reliably... Stances run out, enchantements get removed, unexpected things happen. Then all you have to fall back on is your base AL, which on a warrior can be 101 vs. anything (85AL + 16AL from armor and shield [most monsters don't manage to get around the shield, unless theres alot of them]) Also, when a warrior is running tactics there is really no comparison for tanking, Gladiator's Defense alone will rule the day in many cases... It really shines through when theres only one tank.

I don't know that I'd bring elemental damage too much into it as in PvE its not horribly threatening and in PvP the 'tank' classes don't generally get targeted until late in the fight anyway.

I also play a W/N, however, I find that the energy costs for the attack spells reduces my effectiveness in melee range. The disadvantages of a tank carrying ranged attack spells are:
1) Usally require high energy costs which means:
a) You use more energy faster
b) You can use those less often then the 5 energy warrior skills
c) In long fights you can't usally don't use these skills more then once or twice
2) Reduces the amount of melee skills you can bring (either offensive or defensive), 3) Requires another attribute line

Because of these reasons I like to stick with a good bow.

The thing is, if the ranger is getting attacked and the warrior is a defensive warrior you've almost totally knocked that person out of the game. Since the thread is about drawing agro, I would assume the warrior in question would be a defensive tank. Now when I play defensively I bring Gal. Defense, Shield Stance, Dolyak Signet, Watch Yourself, and Plague Touch. If I'm not getting attacked, I'm basically useless in my defensive build.

Now also consider, that you have the Ranger bring defensive skills, rather then offensive skills, so your reducing the effectiveness of that build also.

In all, its possible for Rangers to tank, but it is not the most effective thing to do.

Good advice all, thanks.

Creston

One thing that I would like to say is that I've seen a W/E that was a Earth Magic/Hammer knockdown build that was just great. Monsters could crowd around him all they wanted, but they couldn't do a whole lot to him. It wasn't the greatest when we hit against ranged attackers, but it still was darn good.

Why is everybody obsessed with having to attack to pull ? The simplest and best form of pulling is simply to walk a single warrior just inside aggro range of a group, then move back until he the rest of his party is just outside his aggro circle.

All aggro will drop on him, with very little chance of moving onto other party members (as long as they stay far enough back). Once he's being hit, which isn't a problem with even one good monk in the party, then everybody else starts laying down the hurt.

No reason really, just that the longbow attack will sometimes draw less mob groups at a time than the walking aggro bubble of the Warrior.

Additionally, multiple Warriors do not undermine the pull concept if the secondary Warriors all follow the primary Warrior's aggro and called targets when surrounded.

Pulling and calling target procedures are vital parts for success in GW combat.

Great thread btw. GW combat tactics 101.

I'd say the entire team hits all the warriors with AEDOT and then nukes/shoots the snot out of the healers/interrupters. Ignore the ranged damage til last, but take out the support classes or the tanks will take forever to kill. Stacked storms on the 'cluster' will have half-killed most mobs by the time you gank their healers/the storm runs out.

One other wrinkle with pulling is that it's sometimes, if there are two mobs of mobs close together, it's worth having the core of the party stand another half-aggro-diameter further back and having the pulling tank run back that bit extra so that accidental forward rushes (to take out hanging-back support mobs f'r'ex) don't trigger the nearbys.

Sounds like you did the right thing. My complaint about not dragging them together is more for the guys in front - dragging a guy 50 feet to the AoE is silly (except for special situations), but so is fighting 2 guys 4 feet outside of a firestrom/well of blood/mark of pain. When two warriors are tanking out front and standing more than a few feet apart it gets hard to catch everyone with the AoEs - in those cases dragging them so you are beside each other makes sense, and works wonderfully.

I agree, but I still wouldn't do it in your average PUG. There is the chance that when the warrior moves that the monsters will redirect their attacks to something... squishier, and if your team isn't ready for that -- hasn't positioned themselves properly -- then it can lead to some nasty situations.

Grouping monsters properly is a group effort. If you have people distracting the monsters, tempting them away with their soft and squishy bodies, then I don't care how good your warrior is. He's going to have a hell of a time keeping them grouped.

When I am tanking and the mob tries to run by me I throw Cyclone Axe at them and "Ding" them. Sometimes they stop and fight me. Sometimes they keep on truckin....

Yes and VERY IMPORTANT: Once the W draws the aggro and the fighting starts, DO NOT MOVE! Nothing annoys me as an Ele more than the person with aggro running around. Great! My 4sec/25mana/exhaustion spell is now wasted for nothing.

Same thing with you squishies. If you somehow draw the aggro do one of 2 things: STAND THERE and let the ele's drop some aoe on you, or if you MUST run, run to the warriors and then stand still. I've seen battles where the monk has drawn the aggro and then proceeds to RUN RUN RUN RUN in random directions. The ele's can't drop any spells to take out the mobs. The ranger arrows keep missing b/c the monk is moving in random directions and the mob is following. The warriors cannot catch the mobs. In short, the fight takes FOREVER because no one can hit the mobs chasing the monk.

The worst thing you can do is run around once the fighting starts. If the rest of your team cannot predict and depend upon your location and the mob location, they cannot effectively put their skills to good use.

Another bad one I've seen is the warrior runs out and aggro's the mob while we all stay back. Then the warrior (without communicating to the rest of the party before hand), leads it back towards the party to get it away from other nearby mobs.

The problem is that the party did not know this was gonna happen so they are busy casting prep spells (like arcane echo or whatever) and get caught inside the aggro radius when the W comes back with the group of angry monsters. You can guess what happens next.

okay - i was up to post this yesterday night but i was too tired to articulate myself.

great thread here - everyone who wants to tank should read this:
but there is one part missing until now: the what-if for the squishee who get's flanked by patrol or maybe one monster glitches away and goes for the others. it is very simple to draw it's aggro back on the tank - just needs a little practice in running around the tank so that the monster gets stuck - once it's lost the direct possibility to attack you it is most likey to attack whatever it can reach - which would be the tank.

i hope my gibberish english can be understood - i just got fraps so maybe i am able to make a video of that tonight.

Note in advance: I'm basically saying "what Eppy said!" and this is only specific to PvE since aggressive scripted monsters don't exist in PvP.

Hey there. Hmm, that should not happen. If your teammates understand how the aggro circle works, they will be outside it while you're "fetching" these monsters, and as a result they won't know your teammates even exist. Once, and only once, you have all the agressive mobs targeting you and trying to stomp you into the ground and you stop moving, should your teammates move into range and engage. This is tanking. Any other description is a bastardization of terms. Don't get distracted by the bow thing. Who cares? It has nothing to to with getting a monster's attention any differently than just moving into it's aggro range. No bow shoots beyond aggro, and I'm pretty sure that's by intent. ;P

I personally prefer a monk as the tank. With a Mo/E prot monk tanking and a healing monk supporting, you can let the "monktank" stand in front of anything the game has to offer for a good 20 seconds and barely get scratched. Describing how is unnecessary; I'm sure everyone knows what casts are available. But it doesn't matter, any class can be the tank. There should only be one tank, though.

This is a good idea, but it doesn't work. They'll go where they want to, and if you move around you can lose the latched-on aggro you already have. If your teammates moved up too soon, it's their fault - not yours. Once you have stationary aggro it's hard to switch it off. Movement is the only way, and we don't want you moving at all and teammates moving until you've got it all wrapped up in a cluster ripe for AoE destruction.

You cannot. They have target priorities just like you do. If there's a target in thier aggro circle they want dead, they're going for it. This is why Eles should really watch the short-range spells; on the edge of detection they will happily take the abuse of a meteor storm while locked on to the stationary tank (and how nice that is, non-moving targets for slow casts.) but those half-range spells can get you into trouble.

In that case, zone to town and kick him from your team. No need for drama, just zone and kick. Grab a replacement that listens. If the monsters can only see one person, then they all engage that one person. They won't "lock" to you unless you don't move and unless there's nobody else in sight. (sight being the aggro circle). It's really this simple. If they can see a squishy, they will rightfully want to squish the squishy.

Tips from Warriors? Well. =^) Kidding aside, it has nothing to do with class. Anyone can tank, to a certain extent, with the proper buffs. A Mes tank isn't anywhere near as versatile as a other "tanks" but in a pinch it's fine. What's important is the tank's aggro circle and who's in it. It's that big white highlight your teammates are ignoring and making your job harder. Your best tactic is to explain these concepts to them, or better yet demonstrate them on weak mobs... portal back to ascalon and play with the gargoyles if you'd like.

I'm definitely no expert, but I guess I'll put together a "Aggro Circles and Tanking for Dummies" guide. With pictures. So many people do not understand it, and it's really basic stuff.

Good hunting.

Obviously youve never even picked up a long bow. They do infact shoot past your aggro bubble. This allows the tank to stand still and draw the single targeted group to them instead of running and possibly aggroing 2+ groups. Casters make horrible tanks even monks unless they too use a LONG BOW to draw aggro. The only difference here is warrior'r are built to take damage they can stand a far longer time taking all the hits while the casters prep and slowly move in to range for the kill.

There is nothing better then a warrior for tanking. Period.

Yes, other classes can tank but they'll never do it better then a warrior.

Why do you ask? Because anything another class uses is going to be an enchantment, a limited duration spell, or a stance. All of these things either run out, can be removed, or can be knocked out of.

You can never remove a warrior from his armor and shield. Now add in the extra enchantments, spells and stances that a warrior can also use, and you have a winner hands down.

lol i can't help but laugh everytime you say "squishie"

I agree with Rothgar! This ones for Nasty SQUISHIES should stay back and kill things like they are designed to do. Tanking and getting SQUISHED is the cause of a lot of monk frustration and party wipes. SQUISHIES STAY BACK!

Gah I don't want to argue with you. I've studied this. No, it doesn't. O.K. you are splitting hairs because you can't find anything to fault in the post and feel the need to be confrontational; technically you can hit your target w/o him auto-aggro'ing because of proximity. It will hit him on the outside edge of the aggro circle, but it's only by a couple steps. It truly doesn't matter. That same R could just as easily fire off a 75% evasion stance, run up and smack him, /wave, run back behind the stationary warrior. The same end result occurs only now there are two targets in the monster's aggro circle. Still, if your R is accutely aware of his aggro circle he'll only bring back what he wants. (assuming he knows which mobs are linked.) Someone who runs the risk of aggro'ing more than what he intends should not be the combat initiator, clearly.

Well, whatever. Styles do differ. re: warrior tanks, that's only assuming your monks and casters are not protecting the tank. Besides "a far longer time" is another way of saying "didn't bring enough firepower". Poor planning always manifests itself via risky, drawn out encounters. For building a highspeed PvE killing machine I usually will not take a W or R. (2 Mo / 4 E / 1 Me or N, 1 float, all with various secondaries). This assumes well-trained teammates with many hours playing together, naturally. One slight mistake and a total wipeout is possible. It's not a PUG-friendly setup. Done right, no one ever dies even 3+ hours into cleaning house in the underworld. Give it a try.

Ok Monkey you argued my point for me. Some mobs are packed so tight the ONLY way to aggro one mob is to use a long bows reach attack 1 monster and aggro the mob he is linked to. If a ranger uses driders defens etc etc and runs into a group of say 4 mobs not linked but so close together you cant bring back only what you watn then you just wiped the party congrats. While if you use the long bow to stay out of aggro range you get the one mob you pulled not all 4. 1 mob comes to warriors location and dies 3 left just outta aggro range, snipe one monster in next mob, 2 mobs still outta aggro range, get the picture?

You obviously have not "studied this". Quit talking like you know what you are talking about, go out, find any crappy old longbow, and test it. It will hit at nearly double aggro range, more than that if you have higher ground.

Ah. I understand. Yes, of course. I would instead wait until they spread out or armour up the tank so he can stand there with 12 on him. More efficient to kill them all at once anyway. But yes, if you are trying to pull apart crossing patrols, especially large dangerous ones like bond/beserker sets in fissure that love to run past melee and waste the casters... the bow pull makes it less of a chance of getting more than you want. Do you have an example of where you could find mobs so tightly packed that don't patrol where this would be the only way to do it? I have not found such mob setups anywhere.

You're flamebaiting me. Don't be a jerk. Someone who might think you have an idea what you are talking about might read this. You're so full of feces but you are entertaining. Nearly double! The selected target displays the range of longbows/flatbows on level terrain. You can pull a sort of "distance cheat" like you can with Rebirths, where once it goes off you can backpedal and be a bit farther back when the shot lands and initiates aggro. This definitely helps in selective pulls like Destroyer is illustrating.

I have a question about aggro pulling.

I realize that not being a ranger seriously reduces the amount of dmg available to you when using a bow, but does it affect range? I use a bow on my ele/mo to pull, but I can't be sure if I'm getting as much reach as a ranger.

[QUOTE=GW Monkey]Nearly double!
Yes it is. I don't know what your image is supposed to prove, but the distance you've indicated is for a short bow or for a spell; flatbows have significantly longer range - I know because I use one to pull all the time.