Update still doesn't allow full attribute refund points in town? It officially sucks

Yes, some might be all giddy that they can now unlock a minor Insipiration rune after 140+ wins in arenas. Whoopee. However, for those who want the same freedom for changing Attribute points around that Arena.net allows for changing secondaries and skills (just so we can actually play a couple of unique builds without grinding 6,000 XP in the PvE farm fields), the lack of an update to it is very puzzling.

We've seen dozens of threads on the matter, and as more people leave PvE (where this issue doesn't matter at all) and graduate to primary PvP play, it'll continue to be brought up. Why? Because, as it stands, there is NO benefit at all to leaving it as is, but it slows you down to a crawl when you are creating and testing innovative PvP builds with your long-developed character.

Many, many clear and compelling reasons have been presented for the change. Absolutely all "arguments" against it have been vague ("it keeps the challenge!"), unhelpful ("just don't change your builds so much") or simply ridiculous ("don't like it? Go play Counter Strike").

PvP-only creations don't refund the points since you can't farm grind (except after winning 15 matches) and many of us want to continue to grow with our original character. Sure, delete everytime - but if it serves the same purpose of resetting in town, why go through the hassle?

No one has been able to address why Arena.net allows so much unhindered freedom for secondary and skill change, but not for the Attribute refund points that support those changes. No one addresses how in ANY way, refunding the 24 points (in a TOWN only!) would harm the economy, the play mechanics, the balance, or any other significant gameplay experience.

Any counter-argument you can think of however, I'd ask one question... why not apply that same standard to freely switching secondaries and skills? Having to grind 6,000 XP to change those components seems too ridiculous to even suggest, right? And that is proof of how ridiculous this restriction is. All three components work together, so all three deserve to be freely adjusted (in town only!).

If the change we've been requesting had been made today, how many of you would HONESTLY ever notice (or care) that someone is changing their Attribute points as freely as we are allowed to for secondaries and skills? Think about it. Only the 1v1 arena request has probably gotten more threads created.

There are two black and white scenarios we're talking about here... it's not complicated at all:

A) Feel free to change your attribute points for PvP build creativity and variety - only after you grind away on the unrelated PvE farm (that's been nerfed) for 6,000 XP.

B) Feel free to change your attribute points for PvP build creativity and variety - only after you go to town and are away from battle.

We all currently endure 'A' for our carefully developed characters. What purpose does this forced farm grind, for those of us who have finished PvE completely, serve the game? A and B serve the EXACT same purpose, but design decision 'A' has a fat wad of grind dropped into it that benefits NO ONE, especially the concept of fun play. We've already FOUGHT those monsters... what does it have to do with PvP creativity? And all it would've taken was for Arena.net to do what? Type in a 5 minutes worth of code to restore a single value to '24' whenever a town is entered?

Guild Wars as a game gets a sterling 98% from me and I recommend it to all my friends. Arena.net's continued attention to the evolving (and at times conflicting) needs of the community is to be thanked and commended as a sterling example in the gaming industry as to how a company succeeds with their public. PvE was fun and exciting, and I eagerly await the time when I can pony up the $$$ for more adventures.

That does not keep a lot of us PvP players from constantly point at the one huge creativity-hindering and unnecessary splinter that is begging to be pulled out - please, please, please: reset the refund points back to 24 once we enter a town.

Why not just make a new PvP character?

It really isn't that big of a deal right now IMO, since you can just make a PVP char to test stuff.

Always something to complain about...when will it end?

Now I'm not saying I don't agree, it would be nice to have more easily aquired refund points. But seriously, can't you enjoy the new updates first before asking for more?

Very little in the update for me. I want to create builds and test them freely, not farm nerfed PvE areas for XP. But by all means, enjoy it if it serves your needs. I won't criticize how you have fun and ask the same respect from you.

Addressed:

If the only thing keeping me from using my 200-hour time-invested character is this poor design situation that serves no legitimate purpose (away from battle), then there's no reason not to allow the change.

someones always not happy.

I never saw anything in there message about the this update that it was going to change this. infact this update seemed to be pretty much all PvP only (which it is. plus a few bug fixes)

how about you leave your complaining until they SAY there going to add this, then dont hey?

and I doubt Anet has 5000 programmers to do everything in 2 weeks

what he said earlier is that he refuses to delete a single pve character to make a pvp slot

Complaints will always come up, whether I make it or not, on issues that the public want attention on. Where's the rule book that says it must come from the developer first?

5000 programmers for this simple but significantly positive change? Addressed above:

Like I said, the substance of my position is very sound. All attacks come for simply bringing an issue up. The merits of the request is rarely, if ever, directly addressed.

Not me, but there are quite a few people that do have all slots filled with PvE characters who've earned level 20 the hard way. Are you guys really trying to say that they must be forced to delete a hard-earned character simply because of a weak (or overlooked) design decision? Have more heart than that. How will the change hurt this game in any way at all?

And before it comes again, everyone please realize that either way, attribute refund points are a complete NON-issue for most who are still playing PvE. This is usually a great concern for us when XP points are far and few between, and, more importantly, we shouldn't have to play PvE to make these simple PvP changes. So no need to tell us how you're able to get by with Echo'd Cosmic Storm strats on trolls and drakes over and over and over without having to change your points around.

[QUOTE=arredondo]Not me, QUOTE]

i apologize for the mix up

my oops

Having full att. refund in town defeats the purpose of having them. Since you cant change your skills outside of town, why would you want to vary your att points in a mission? Only rarely would you want to. I think att refund pts are there to reduce the rate at which you can vary your pve character.

I don't mind that between levels 1-20 - since you're doing missions and getting xp fast, but once you've finished the game, it becomes tricky - xp-bearing monsters are usually pretty tough, there's no big 1000xp missions/quests to do, etc.

So, my take - once a character FINISHES the game, he doesnt need to use refund points at all anymore, he can vary atts at will.

Or maybe 1 att refund point = 1 faction point in the new system?

5000 programmers to program every request that they think is worthy from every post withing the community of guild wars! your not the only person with a request that sounds good.

so I'll repeat.

how about your wait until they say there going to do something about this and dont before you complain.

perhaps they think this is a great idea, but dont exactly see it as a SUPER IMPORTANT OMG OMG MUST BE FIXED NOW!!!!1!!!!11one problem
and most likely have a huge list of bugs, exploits, errors, fixes, tweaks, and additions that actually are MORE important than this

think

Its cause they use their PvP character to Mule stuff for them. IE Hoarding... And they are unwilling to just delete their character as they are suppose too when they want to rebuild, cause they got all kinds of stuff in the characters inventory. In other words they are lame... And don't understand the concept of how a PvP character is suppose to work.

I have been begging Arenanet to make PvP characters not able to hold bags or belts for this very reason... A backpack is More then enough Maybe even too much for a normal PvP build. You dont pick anything up in PvP except maybe a sigil... when you win HoH.

Three cheers for logic. But the system does have its purpose in battle I guess. Something about preventing huge changes to different attributes on the field, but I only ask for town changes (as have a LOT of people).

There's several big 5000xp quests to do. Have you been to UW or FoW? Then again, those are PVE-areas, which don't really matter that much to PVPers..

Fer chrissakes, delete one of those pve-characters, and make new pvp-character when you want to test build.

It only takes 3 characters to get access to every class.

Hysterical, I nearly choked laughing.

Two minutes after the update and he's on the message boards complaining.

I think he enjoys the complaint game more than GW.

It's a lot of points but wait and see how fast you build up. It'll take less time for the things you really want for sure.

Repeat away, but the community will still decide what IT feels is worthy of attention and continue to create threads on it. Again, this is one of the most popular requests so it's not an issue of "changing every little thing." If it makes sense, the public wants it, it doesn't harm gameplay, and is a simple 5-10 minute adjustment, then there's no reason not to improve GW in this way.

Been there, done that. Why force PvP players, who want to make a simple change that's freely allowed for secondaries and skills, go all the way to PvE Underworld to grind for XP? If I did that, do you recommend I bail on the team once I get to 24 points? Should I stay for the eight hours each time to go through the Fissures of Woe, just so I can get back to PvP experimentation?

The best solution often is the simplest. Unless there is some significant harm to the gameplay structure (there's no harm in allowing free change for secondaries and skills mind you), then it's obvious this request is only a GOOD thing.

who says it doesnt harm gameplay? you? of course you and those who support it would say that. perhaps they see a potential problem. perhaps one of the alphas do.

dont assume you know all the complications this may or may not involve.

and for the record, I dont see a problem with this change. what I am TRYING to get at is why are you complaining? if it has indeed been talked about in several threads, I'd say Anet knows about people wanting this change. complaining will get you know where! (just look at all the complaints about the whole PVP thing, and how "quickly" they reacted to that, IE they ignored all the WE WANT THIS posts, acknowledged it was requested, then went about runnin there business how they feel is best)

but why do I bother.... everyone loves to complain. and i mean everyone

One thing which seems to have been missed by those with 4 slots full of pve characters which they use for pvp only. Those item-/skill-/runeunlocks which you can get with faction points? They are there only for your pvp-characters.

..another cheese&wine-thread avalanche coming..