MOnks...the best leaders? - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

gogoblender

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2005

Montreal, Canada

30 Jun 2005 at 19:01 - 1

I mean...think about it.

They're watching everything...their team, their health meters...everything.

As such...it puts them in an astounding place to see how their team is following orders and what is needed and who needs helping.

Monks seem to have an edge in terms of perspective.

Their role gives them a focus that a lot of players in a team maybe wouldn't have simply because the monk has to watch ALL the events that unfold and deal with doling out healing to players that give to the team.

MOnks' view of the synergies that spring up in teamplay, IMO, perhaps empower them with strategic capablitites that, perhaps, a lot of other players in the team miss because theyr'e simply too close to the battle.

So...MOnk as quarter back?

Should he call the plays?

Or...does his role as life giver in the heat of battle perhaps imbue the leader monk with a god complex that will make him absolutely horrible to be played with?

gogo

DarrenJasper

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

30 Jun 2005 at 19:02 - 2

Yeah I've been saying this for months.

Aniewiel

Smite Mistress

Join Date: Jun 2005

The Land of AZ, USA

Rt/E

30 Jun 2005 at 19:06 - 3

Agreed. I think that I've learned more about this game as a monk than I ever did as a Mesmer (unless I was in a healing support role---Me/Mo). As a mesmer, I was only concerned with what -I- was doing, as are the other characters. I rarely gave much thought to anyone else's healthbars unless they went suddenly blank and I was one of the only ones left alive. Then it was...Oh #$@@...RUN!

But as a monk, I have to be aware of each player's strengths and weaknesses, who is getting hit hard and who isn't, how to manage the situation (helps to know the missions ahead of time to know what I should bring), etc.

I suppose the bottom line is that it comes down the player behind the character. If they have a god complex IRL, they'll have a BIGGER one IG as a monk. If they are more like a true monk, a benevolent healer, they will be humble and offer constructive suggestions without saying the word n00b even ONE time!

gosl

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2005

30 Jun 2005 at 19:09 - 4

The monk is only the "best" leader, if the player behind the monk is the "best" leader. The profession the player chooses does not determine if they are a good leader. Well, at least that's what I think.

Sierra

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2005

TX, US

Raging Tempest

30 Jun 2005 at 19:15 - 5

Makes sense, but I agree with gosl that it's more the person behind the character.

I hate leading a group with my monk, though I have done it when helping guildmates with missions. I have enough responsibility just healing/protecting the entire team. I don't want to add leadership on top of that, but maybe that's just me.

stumpy

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Feb 2005

Canucklehead BC, Canada

Advanced Necro Undead Society

30 Jun 2005 at 19:17 - 6

your not talking about target calling are you?

*if you are* scenario ... your king of the hill ... team A infront of you rushes you .... chopping at your hero at your teamates ... you name it ... conditions ... hexes .... whatever ... so you and the other monks are protecting healing removing conditions and hexes ... heck through in smiting to protect your self ...

the other team rushes you while your spamming these ... are you actually able to add on this to your role? If you are ... I applaud you ... frankly I say eles andrangers make target calling easier especially rangers ...

reason is that they are continually hounding the casters and annoying them ... but switching between them ... so when they see a target of opportunity they can call it out. But thats just a thought ...

WeiPing

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

30 Jun 2005 at 19:19 - 7

Not really. At least, not in combat. A monk can't call targets, for example.

Knowing when to fall back and/or retreat is probably a decision best left to a monk, however.

FluidFox

Banned

Join Date: Feb 2005

In a box with a Keyboard. (cst)

30 Jun 2005 at 19:22 - 8

Having played monks since E3, I can say that maybe they can dictate some tactics, but somebody else needs to be calling targets. A monk that is doing his job is going to be constantly targeting his own team, not tabbing around to find a key target. I do think the monks should be in charge of calling a retreat though. A good monk knows what he can heal and when people need to cut their losses.

Kishin

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

The Twilight Vanguard [TTV]

R/

30 Jun 2005 at 19:23 - 9

Quote:

Originally Posted by WeiPing

Not really. At least, not in combat. A monk can't call targets, for example.

Knowing when to fall back and/or retreat is probably a decision best left to a monk, however.

Yes they can. They just need to immediately cancel the attack by backing up, and staying out of aggro range (And you can call targets from well outside aggro range to begin with, so.. What a monk can't do that well is pull. That's a Ranger's job.

As for consistently targetting one's own team.....You can leave your mouse over the lifebars and use [ and ] to cycle targets, if you want.

Sierra

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2005

TX, US

Raging Tempest

30 Jun 2005 at 19:25 - 10

I've never considered target calling to be the leader's job unless they stated so. It is the leader's job to designate a target caller though. Rangers are my fave target callers, though most of the time there is a warrior on the team who insists on doing it too. When I'm leading I name who will target call and who will pull (if necessary). To me the leader gathers a balanced team, designates roles (target caller, puller), leads team by drawing/ping the map, and gives instructions via chat when necessary. Some people may not, but I consider the person at the top of the list (the one who made the team) the team leader, unless they obviously don't want the role, in which case there is always someone willing to take over. It annoys me when I put a team together, and once we're in the mission someone else automatically tries to assume the leadership role. If you want to be leader, put together your own team.

gogoblender

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2005

Montreal, Canada

30 Jun 2005 at 19:29 - 11

Good Post Sierra
I"ve always thought it was the leader's job to appoint the caller as well.

gogo

WeiPing

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

30 Jun 2005 at 19:29 - 12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kishin

Yes they can. They just need to immediately cancel the attack by backing up...

I'm not thinking about that, I'm thinking about the fact that pretty much the only thing I ever pay attention to is the life bars of my team...I don't care who they're fighting, how close that mob is to dying, who should be attacked next. My job - my ONLY job - is to keep my team alive for as long as possible. Those red bars can shrink fast enough so it's difficult, for me at least, to pay attention to anything else.

Most the time, I don't even bother attacking. Half my time is just spent standing there between heals. Not because I couldn't help the team a little bit, but because I prefer to stay entirely focused on those red bars.

KaPe

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2005

30 Jun 2005 at 19:33 - 13

Certainly not in PvP, they should be too busy removing hexes/conditions, healing and running away from enemies to properly lead team

gogoblender

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2005

Montreal, Canada

30 Jun 2005 at 19:35 - 14

lol, it looks like there's a lot of definitions of what it means to "lead" a team!

And looking only at health bars in the middle of battle...is this because of choice or capability?

Because being able to run more ops at once during battle would seem to me to be something that would just come with time.

...multi tasking IMO is one of the capabilities of a great monk.

lol, or could be!

gogo

r4yne

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2005

Manchester - England

Jagged Blade

Me/Mo

30 Jun 2005 at 19:38 - 15

i select a target to attack between heals, as tesco says every little helps. But, I do keep my eye on the health bars, I positioned them where i can watch the fighting and keep an eye on the team.

wongba

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Apr 2005

Alliance of Xen [XoO]

30 Jun 2005 at 19:40 - 16

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaPe

Certainly not in PvP, they should be too busy removing hexes/conditions, healing and running away from enemies to properly lead team

i second this. as a monk, it's pretty difficult mapping out a counter-strategy if i can't see what skills the enemy is running except for very obvious cases such as nature spirits or air eles. i think anti-cast mes or disruption ranger would be more natural b/c they're always in the position to see what skills multiple enemies are using and also in a good position to actually counter them.

Rothgar

Academy Page

Join Date: Apr 2005

30 Jun 2005 at 19:40 - 17

The best leaders are those who can keep aware of the battle situation.
The best target callers are those who can stick with a target until it dies or they want the team to switch to an better target.

In responce to the orignal topic, if the Monk can do his job of healing/protecting while keeping aware of everything else going on, then sure, lead away. If not, then don't lead.

But you can't say X class is better leading then any others because leadership is very dependent upon the person, not the class.

Aniewiel

Smite Mistress

Join Date: Jun 2005

The Land of AZ, USA

Rt/E

30 Jun 2005 at 19:40 - 18

Quote:

Originally Posted by r4yne

i select a target to attack between heals, as tesco says every little helps. But, I do keep my eye on the health bars, I positioned them where i can watch the fighting and keep an eye on the team.

Me too, r4yne. My little 4-7 damage wand does copious amounts of damage...but...every little bit DOES help, right?

Aniewiel

Smite Mistress

Join Date: Jun 2005

The Land of AZ, USA

Rt/E

30 Jun 2005 at 19:41 - 19

I don't think Gogo was insinuating that Monks -were- the best leaders. The question was merely asked.

I don't think that any one class is the best leader. As ably stated by others, it depends on the human at the keyboard, not the class itself.

gogoblender

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2005

Montreal, Canada

30 Jun 2005 at 19:50 - 20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aniewiel

I don't think Gogo was insinuating that Monks -were- the best leaders. The question was merely asked.

I don't think that any one class is the best leader. As ably stated by others, it depends on the human at the keyboard, not the class itself.

lol, exactly!

however...it's interesting though that...the monk's ROLE as a healer makes him use a ...let's say...more mature perspective to weigh and calculate who will be healed that can help the group out more (big decision that is

), while protecting and monitoring the combat situation.

The monk's role MAKES him look at the bigger picture, while another player won't necessarily have to...they have the luxury of being able to plow into the battle and fight berzerker style.

The Monk NEVER has that luxury.

He's always gotta be on guard.

Watching for the team.

Lol, maybe the monk class isn't necessarily always the best leader...but the THINKING that goes into making a GOOD monk is certainly one that IMO has a great chance of producing a leader that will have the most success with his team.

gogo

Aniewiel

Smite Mistress

Join Date: Jun 2005

The Land of AZ, USA

Rt/E

30 Jun 2005 at 19:56 - 21

One thing I have noticed about myself as a monk is my propensity to get blindsided by a baddy that has slipped by the front lines and is beating the ever living snot out of me.

All of a sudden I'm thinking to myself, "WOW! That person's really getting smacked" and I flash out "Heal Other" and have it say "Invalid Target" then realize it's ME getting beaten to a pulp!

But you have very sound thinking, Gogo. The Monk, just by nature of what he/she does, gives him/her a broader perspective than other classes. Is it better? No, no one is saying that. It is just unique.

I can say that I am sure that the few numbers of monks in higher levels is due to the fact that it is a VERY high stress "job". While most other characters only have themselves to worry about (oh yeah and the monsters hehe), the monk worries about everyone. *takes some Xanax and prepares to go "monk" on line*

gosl

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2005

30 Jun 2005 at 20:16 - 22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aniewiel

But you have very sound thinking, Gogo. The Monk, just by nature of what he/she does, gives him/her a broader perspective than other classes. Is it better? No, no one is saying that. It is just unique.

I can say that I am sure that the few numbers of monks in higher levels is due to the fact that it is a VERY high stress "job". While most other characters only have themselves to worry about (oh yeah and the monsters hehe), the monk worries about everyone. *takes some Xanax and prepares to go "monk" on line*

Considering your other posts, I'm pretty sure you're not trying to belittle how much effort to effectively use non-monk professions, are you?

But anyways, it's true that a competent monk has to be vigilant and keep an eye on eveyone's health. The same can be said to other profession as well. A competent ranger has to keep an eye on the field and look for windows of opportunities to distrupt or lay traps. At times, rush in the middle of the chaos to lay a trap or two, then rush out before the aggro eyes him/her instead. Well played warriors need to position and (at times) constantly re-position themselves properly to take the blunt of the attack. Other profession have similar responsibilites. All professions should heal themselves as well whenever they can. It seems to me that all the professions have to constantly be aware of what's going on if they want to play their role properly, it's just that each would focus on a different aspect of the battle.

WeiPing

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

30 Jun 2005 at 20:19 - 23

Quote:

Originally Posted by gogoblender

And looking only at health bars in the middle of battle...is this because of choice or capability?

Capability. Multitasking is fine, and there are times for it, but in the midst of an important battle I'm not capable of doing anything other than keeping my team safe without diminishing my ability to keep the team safe.

I could spend 80% of my time worrying about health bars and 20% attacking mobs, but that generally means there's a 20% greater chance I can screw up and someone ends up dead, and I don't think my puny wand does enough damage to justify it.

It's a personal call, though...just the way I play. I also don't have any offensive skills on my bar.

Aniewiel

Smite Mistress

Join Date: Jun 2005

The Land of AZ, USA

Rt/E

30 Jun 2005 at 20:23 - 24

I am certainly NOT belittling other professions at all! In fact, my first and so far only ascended character is the little-respected Me/Mo. I understand all too well how terribly difficult any character is to play. I also have a warrior/monk and a ranger/warrior that I play so I have covered alot of ground class-wise.

What I -have- noticed is that I have to pay much more attention to the other players and less attention to myself and to monsters. That's pretty much all I'm driving at here.

For me, and of course I can only speak for myself, playing a monk is much more "work" than other classes that I, personally, have played.

IxChel

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2005

http://sof-guild.com/

Servants of Fortuna

Mo/R

30 Jun 2005 at 20:52 - 25

I like it when the Warrior calls the target -- the warrior is the only class that is melee based; so it's harder for them to move around; and if they've setup a good cluster of baddies around them, you don't want them following targets. It's best if they stay put and call a good target that is close to them.

That said, when my Monk calls a target, it is for a different reason. I use it to signal that I'm in trouble and that I'm healing _myself_ and running -- and that I might not be able to heal you. In a poor PUG, someone dies about 5-7 seconds after I call a target. People should use their own self-heals at that point, and do what they can to relieve the pressure. After two people go down (because I'm busy healing myself, or low on energy), I sprint away unless it's clear we are making good progress.

Ollj

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

30 Jun 2005 at 21:37 - 26

That monks are good leaders is pretty much bullshit.

Okay monks are team introverted, they know what the own team is doing.
But if you dot know that you shall be screwed anyways, no matter what class you are.

Mesmers are Skill-extroverted, they know most of the spells of the game (using all of them) and know what spells the opponent team uses.
Same thing, better know all the spells no matter what class you are.

Necros are the true tactical leaders of the game, of course you must play one to know what i mean.
A necro analizes a weak spot in the oponent team and thats it...

Nad

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

30 Jun 2005 at 22:13 - 27

haha.............................................. .................................................. .................................................. ................................

Aniewiel

Smite Mistress

Join Date: Jun 2005

The Land of AZ, USA

Rt/E

30 Jun 2005 at 22:16 - 28

While I love my Me/Mo and she's fully ascended, I can't imagine her as a leader. O.o My Mo/R isn't a leader either.

I do agree, though, that both characters are the 'heart and soul' of a group based on their wider knowledge of what everyone else is doing.....

*ponders* Maybe they're just nosey.

Yabba

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2005

30 Jun 2005 at 22:30 - 29

i hate leading when i play my monk.

happened today again that i joined a pickup grp and when the fight started no one was calling.
we were starting to lose because everyone was attacking another target so i started calling and we could change the tide of battle and win.

in the next fight again no one called and this time i refused to do it.

it`s really way too hard to keep an eye on all healthbars, heal and remove conditions/hexes, trying to stay alive while get beaten perhaps running arouind and on top of that watch what all enemies do and call targets ...

i can call way better when playing ele or warrior.

monks really shouldn´t have to do the target calling ...

Aniewiel

Smite Mistress

Join Date: Jun 2005

The Land of AZ, USA

Rt/E

30 Jun 2005 at 22:34 - 30

Yabba...before I go on...do you have other chars named Dabba and Doo?

But, back on topic.

I agree, monks are lousy at calling targets. They can be leaders, however, by stopping the group -before- the mission begins and designating things like "aggro lead", "target caller", etc.

Yabba

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2005

30 Jun 2005 at 22:37 - 31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aniewiel

Yabba...before I go on...do you have other chars named Dabba and Doo?

not in GW.

my savage in daoc was named Yabbadabba Doo and i usually make in mmorpgs one char with that name (sometimes just Yabbadabba or Yabba) - but in GW it didn`t fit to any of my chars

Darcon

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Jul 2005

01 Jul 2005 at 02:17 - 32

A good healing/protection monk can never be the best leader during actual combat (unless everyother teammate is very incompetant, which is a lost cause anyway) but they can strategize and make suggestions just as good, if not better, than any other class or role.

Don't underestimate the wand, but it's not always best to use on called targets. As a monk, it's easy to see when trappers are in the opposing team (sudden and multiple conditions) and this is perhaps the best use a monk wand can be put to. Since trappers have to get close to your team do much of anything, it's just as safe as standing there and not wanding. It's pretty funny, as a monk, saying you comepletely shutdown a character without diverting attention form healing (Good trappers will use stances, but you're forcing them to spend time/energy getting those stances up, and it still might get through).

It's also helpful to use your wand on Nature Spirits, since they have such low hp/armor, you can contribute fairly well to the damage.

I will also wand lone casters that are near me. It will eventually do enoguh damage to require a heal, and it might be mistaken for a new called target (a few wand/melee attacks usually precedes a spike) in which case enchantments may be dumped on them.

Shaubarak

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Apr 2005

01 Jul 2005 at 03:05 - 33

Monks can't lead. They're too busy keeping people alive. Normally they have to watch the battlefield AND health bars, they can't be expected to strategize and call the shots too.

Get your team leaders to play something that doesn't take too much attention to use effectively.

theclam

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

01 Jul 2005 at 03:29 - 34

In PvE, Monks are great leaders. It helps the team A LOT if I can dictate what we're going to do. In PvP, against a challenging team, I don't have the time. Like others have said, someone who is well aware of the entire battlefield, including both friends and enemies, would be the best choice for a leader.

funbun

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2005

I forget. Really. I don't know.

Mo/

01 Jul 2005 at 03:38 - 35

NO! I'd rather have a ranger leader...scratch that, I'd rather have a non-n00b leader anyday. But Rangers are good a pulling and calling targets. They look out for enemies, setting traps, luring them into the group, careful not to aggro, they tell Tanks where to wall, and casters wheres to stand.

Monks NEVER look at the enemy and have NO idea of what going on in the batte. At best they are just running around trying to surviive. Monks are not Quarter backs. They can't take a hit from a 300lbs Defensive Lineman worth CRAP!

Let Rangers quarterback and let Monks pass out the Gatorade!

Sekkira

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2005

Canberra, AU

01 Jul 2005 at 04:16 - 36

I'd actually say something like a Necro is probably a best class for a tactical leader. Mainly because of where they stand is usually at the back with the Monks, casting away, but also because once you cast something, you don't have to worry about it too much.

Rangers and Warriors are probably the best callers as the rangers can see things from a distance and Warriors are up in the fray and can see what's coming. Elementalists are too busy blowing up their target and wasting energy with a massive amount of spells.

The Monk is probably the best person to dictate a retreat or a fall back.

The Mesmer probably acts slightly independantly, keeping the opposition pinned down at whatever opportunity they see, so I don't think a Mesmer is one to follow the called target.

funbun

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2005

I forget. Really. I don't know.

Mo/

01 Jul 2005 at 04:20 - 37

Yeah, Sekkira you nailed it on the head.

Gear853

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

Great White North

The Fishers Of Men

N/Me

01 Jul 2005 at 05:40 - 38

I play both Necro and Monk. I'm a pretty good leader. I usually Call target and tell what to attack and what not too attack.

And I say I'm a pretty good leader, because I have found that as long as people follow my lead. The group I'm in have around 90% chance of success in a mission.

it doesn't matter what class you play with yor character that tell if that player is a good leader, is the Person that are controlling the character in front of the screen that tell if he or she is a good leader or not

Vermilion Okeanos

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2005

01 Jul 2005 at 06:47 - 39

I believe it is the person behinde the character that made a class a good leader...

any class can be good at watching the opponent movements... it is just up to whether the player is watching or not...

If you really want to say class... I would say ranger... as they got farthest range, which means they can watch from the widest view... and especially when they usually go up hill for damage bonus. While they are also less likely to be targeted first (so far back, who want to bother going all the way up? of course, unless everyone else is dead), that means he can be a steady target caller at the same time. While being a survivor, that means he won't have too much distraction from opponent attacks (too busy healing yourself, too busy moving around etc) allowing the ranger to think more calmly and logically. So, with all these... ranger are the easiest class to be leader with, it can be done with less training than the other class.

Makkert

Black Beast of Aarrrrgghh

Join Date: May 2005

The Netherlands

The Biggyverse [PLEB] // Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

01 Jul 2005 at 08:14 - 40

i would say any class that constantly switches targets and is easy to play should be the leader. if they make their char easy to play, they can keep a better lead on things.
necro's, rangers sound like good targetcallers/leaders, since they are not top priority kill and overview battleground.
a monk is switching targets between your team, and running. i don't see how a monk can overview the battle enough to lead.