We could use tutorial missions that illustrate GW concepts.

The focus for GW is and should rightfully be PvP/GvG. I've always considered PvE as "practice" to entice those afraid or just against the concept of PvP, having been abused in games where it wasn't your decision. So you give them easy mobs and silly, random PvP to take the fear out, progress to much harder and tactically signifigant PvE missions requiring coordination and teamwork, with team based PvP arenas... and finally very difficult PvE like UW/FoW that are intolerant of even simple mistakes and Tournament PvP. So that finally, yes! They are prepared for the game's name: GUILD WARS.

That said, the "tutorial" parts of GW are grossly lacking. Since BWE times they have added much content for this, and I've re-started fresh PvE characters multiple times to see the changes... but sadly it's a droplet in a bucket. Most of it is centered around controlling your character and understanding the interface. So many people arrive at later portions of the PvE game, having never learned some basic things. Sit in Hell's Precipice and listen to the types of really basic questions that get asked. It's frustrating. This is the thing I find most upsetting, and I'm sure it contributes to the "idiot factor" of PUGs.

Like reallocating attributes dynamically. Why for Grenth's sake has this not been forced on them? This was one of the core concepts of GW, yet so many people decide "I'm a sword-wielding warrior" and they swing that same Fiery Dragon from the time they overpaid for it till the time they get bored of dying and quit GW. Show them. FORCE THEM. Make it a mission. Off the top of my head, maybe something like: Have the Charr catch and imprison them in the Northlands, and take away all their items. Whatever weapon / realm of casting they have, leave a different one outside their cell with the basic attacks / spells that match. Have a box pop up to explain that to use this effectively, they need to change their attribute focus. After they fight their way out, at the end of the mission, they get their stuff back and can reallocate.

There's many more examples, but the basic concept is this: Prepare them. We're all really the same six characters with the same abilities... the only thing that separates us is planning and tactics. (well, and the ability to learn.)

Great post. Completely agree.

Hmm now that would be interesting, forcing someone to learn how to play the game. I am all for it. lol I can hear the lighters and kerosene coming out right about ....

But come on, they gave us a guide to Piken Square - what more do you want ?

Because there's generally no need for it, and thus it isn't in fact an important game skill?

I think the game does a pretty good job covering the essentials, including the PvP aspect (have you noticed that at least two of the three Ascension missions are mock-PvP missions?)

We also need a mission teaching targetting.

Funnily enough, I think the focus for GW is and should rightfully be PvE. I've always considered PvP repetitive and dull and mainly to keep the hockey card gaming crowd happy.

I wonder who of us is wrong.

You are. And it's "which of us" in that context. The crowd they're keeping happy is the one that want this to be Diablo 3 in the worst way. Or even better, the delusional types that want to treat it as an MMORPG with no monthly fee (that's the only reason they're here). But as a company they need the dollars. Go do some research on this game's developmental history. You don't have to go that far back, just to E3 for Everyone will be fine. Now stop trolling. Or do you have something relevant to say about my suggestion?

Know what GW Monkey?
Yours is a great post!

The PvE does teach much, but there are indeed several basic concepts that it does not, (or perhaps the average player simply doesn't comprehend?) among those would be:

Pulling techniques: how, when and where it should be done.

Aggro management: Why does the creature always eat you first? Try waiting a moment for the fighter to engage it before you begin nuking like a madman!

Power management: Why do so many casters go dry within the first 15 seconds of a pitched battle? Is it necessary to cast all your spells ASAP? Absolutely not - timing isn't everything, its the only thing.

Team design: So many builds and all anyone seems to care about is self-sufficiency or using a monk as a velcroed NPC to compensate for no skill.
A regular team can be designed to be incredibly lethal with all contributing.

No tutorials for these concepts exist in PvE, and the partial result of this is a percentage of players who simply don't know any better.

Talesin

Monkey: The point of GW isn't solely PvP. The idea behind GW isn't solely PvP. The devs didn't intend it to be solely PvP. They didn't build a world that takes several hundred hours to fully explore solely as a tutorial for PvP. They want there to be BOTH PvE and PvP.
What you, personally, want or believe is simply irrelevant, regardless of how much you assert otherwise.
Clear?

However, Talesin is absolutely right - we need more basic PvE technique trainers for beginning players. Too many players don't know how to PvE effectively, and teaching concepts such as, say, pulling and tanking would go a long way.
PvP training, on the other hand, isn't a task of the PvE campaign, it's a task for the guilds.

I agree. The first real PvE tests start in the desert. Players have several dozen hours of gameplay, in which they can learn bad habits, before they're required to have good habits. If they learned good habits earlier, they'd have more fun, and I wouldn't have to spend ages finding a good party for the Ascension missions. Talesin lists some good examples and in addition to those, there should be missions where you're supposed to counter specific threats. For example, if there was a mission where you have to destroy a Stone Summit field hospital, then maybe players would learn how to deal with Monk mobs.

Monkey, don't be a jerk and yell at people for not loving your suggestion or agreeing with what are apparently opinions. Maybe you are secretly the CEO of Arena, but that would just mean we aren't all blessed as blessed as you. No reason to be mean about it.

Anyway, I strongly favour more tutorial aspects, including stuff like Talesian's suggestions (some of which are strictly for PvE). Even if it's as simple as pre-Academy Devona saying stuff like, "Let me attack first. Hopefully the Grawl will ignore you then!". Some of it will need to be more in-depth, and let me say that I don't envy anyone at ArenaNet who actually has to do this stuff. Tutorials are hard work.

But the benefit is a much more informed player base. It's also likely to get along better, because other players will just know what you are talking about.

I'm half amazed when maximum level players don't know what target-calling is, but half sorry that the game hasn't taught them. Even if you are just playing with Henchmen, target calling isn't wrong, and a good way to make the henchmen attack when you want them to (especially when you are a caster...)

I love this idea. The more skilled people become, the more fun everyone will have when playing the game. Teaching intermediate skills and strategy like target calling, aggro management, basic group strategies, etc is definitely something that should be added relatively early in the game. I agree with GW Monkey that if all of the players knew more of the intermediate skills, it would make for better PUG's, GvG and PvP battles. It should encourage more player interaction and cooperation if people can do the training at their own pace and then come into grouping situations with necessary tactics and strategy to make grouping a more enjoyable experience. Even if someone goes through the intermediate gameplay tutorials and decides they want to play the whole game with just henchmen, the more training you have means you die less and enjoy the game more.

At first I was thinking this training should go in pre-searing quests or the ascalon academy, but then what to do for the players who have already progressed beyond that point and can't go back? It would be nice if everyone could participate in the training with their current character build instead of having to create a new character. After all, there is no such thing as too much practice or too much training. Maybe they could make a post-searing Ascalon Academy and have Warmaster Tydus give newbies a quest to go there when they first arrive in post-searing, and just let everyone else decide whether they want to warp back to Ascalon and go train at the Academy.

It would be lots of work for the ANet guys, but it would sure be a boost to the GW community in the short and long term.

Tutorial: Trading

Step 1:
Hit the tilde key. (to the left of 1)

Step 2:
Make sure the checkbox next to 'Trade' is checked.

Step 3:
Click the 'Trade' tab.

Step 4:
Spam all you want.

Actually, yeah, even basic skills like trading and which channel to use when.

I know from my friends (who bought their games after me) that there's an actual instruction leaflet in the box now, but when I bought the game there was zero information about the gameplay. There was a novel about "lore" and a book about how to create a character and PvP. That was it.

For instance I had to ask other players how to trade, and I didn't know the difference between quests and missions (or even how to enter missions).

An arena could be set in pre-searing that is exculsively used for tutorials or make players learn something and set up something similar in the so called "Academy". Some people just don't have the right person with them to show them how to handle themselves in combat. Many a gamer have left GW because they haven't learned how to co-op. I'm sure there are several ways to handle this and any one of those solutions would benfit the guild wars community as a whole.

why not just let people play the way they would like to? if targetting, or attribute refunding isn't in their objectives when they get on for 15-30 minutes every week, why force them to learn it? anyways, in most games that attempt things like this, you end up with something where the people who play most get angry because they have to waste their time on something they already know how to do, and the people who play the most will just push the right button at the right time, and get back into their same groove...essentially learning nothing. It's a great idea, but it's been implemented in games past and doesn't work. If you want a quality game where you don't enter the Hell's Precipice mission and the first thing said is "What's a rune good for?" then get a guild, get a group of 8 guildies, and play the mission. Going pubbing and complaining about stupidity is irrelevant, as it happens in everygame ever created for online play...

LOL Sorry. I try not to argue. I don't care if they agree with the suggestion, but be prepared to justify your reasoning. In this case it's that whole "hockey card" crap, he Awakened the Blood. PvP is so much more effort than PvE, though it's not worth explaining / convincing someone who can't grasp it. :/ They'd never be competitive enough to be a team asset or a challenging opponent, anyway. This is why I want them "trained up" by the game itself.

If that's all the time you can dedicate to GW, you'll be a player that is useless to everyone, PvE and PvP alike. 30 minutes? A WEEK?! No, you're right, I could care less how he plays GW or what he learns. He can stay targeting-dumb, it's fine by me. =)

re: why force them? Why? Why? but... but... but... I'm getting flustered. I don't know how to re-word the suggestion so it makes sense to you. How could this possibly be bad, to learn to use your tools correctly? Yes, you CAN use a Cresent wrench as a hammer, I suppose, but that's not it's intended use. It's not effective as a wrench this way and it's definitely not as effective as a real hammer. But since you're a "self-taught" mechanic you might not know any better unless someone took it away from you and showed you how to use it. Oh and butter knives are not screwdrivers.

Darkbriar, great suggestions! Team building should be pretty easy. Remember those blue "tips" boxes in presear that popped up? If we could get them to setup trigger events... like for example, if you add 3 Ws to your 4-man team in Ascalon, it pops up and says something about balanced teams and effectiveness?

Aggro management, that needs a classroom map with The Seer at the front at the blackboard drawing diagrams and explaining the aggro circle and what chained aggro means, etc. I threatened to write a book re: GW Aggro Circles For Dummies (With Pictures!) and I just may have to... such a basic PvE concept that's been around since RPG computer games were invented still being misunderstood. I know it's not because people are stupid, but because no one ever actually explained it to them... some people cannot pick stuff up on the fly very well, and I guess this makes it full-circle. We need more tutorial missions.

the tutorial mission would be great. i mean one of my best officers in my guild didnt evean know what the damn aggro circle was till dunes of dispar i was very shocked(later at the hall me and my other top officer laughed at him for it) and it was a in the middle of the mission to, not the best place to just realize what that is.

I'm against it. Lets say the items they drop out my cell doesn't require the attributes I'm using for my build? Why the HELL should I have to rearrange them just for this one tutorial?

I think the learning curve in the game is fine as is, if you add too many "teaching" quests and missions where they tell you to "pull the mobs in groups of 3, 4 times" or some shit like that. Hell this isn't a platformer where everything is spelled out for you, some of it you have to use common sense to understand.

I have to say that I have no interest in PvP, nor do I think ArenaNet crafted GW to steer you toward this mode of play. I believe that ArenaNet crafted GW to appeal to both types of players

I'm extremely new to this type of gaming and only got involved at the urging of a friend who wanted us to be able to play online together. GW wasn't what I expected and I have enjoyed myself throughly. Because I had no idea what I was doing, I spent much of my time learning how to acquire those skills necessary to stay alive during a quest or a mission. Because my friend and I are half a world apart, our playing time is limited, so I did most of the quests and missions with henchmen. I can tell you, I've learned a lot over the past couple of months and have enjoyed the lessons.

With this background, I can now say that I would not like to be forced to use a tutorial, but I think they are a good idea if someone else would like to use them.

I have a question. No kerosene here... Just a simple series of questions...

Isn't there a "Tutorial Area" already in place? Isn't it colloquially known as "Pre-Searing"?

While it doesn't specifically give you tips, hints or pointers on Mob-management, shouldn't the average player be able to figure these things out by doing? Do we need to rote teach everything?

Clearly players need to be taught more and/or better, in case you haven't seen the calibre of players in even the Crystal Desert. Lv20s who don't know what "call target" is? That's just not right.

I fully agree with putting more tutorial missions in rather than just jumping right into missions in Ascalon. I best liked the idea of an Academy in post-searing Ascalon, I forget who posted it. Really, though, as long as there was some way for the newer players to get educated in the ways of Guild Wars, that would be wonderful and would definitely bring up the standard of intelligence.

I disagree. I think if you hand the player a book/movie/point-by-point tutorial on "how to play effectively", rather than letting the player learn it, you end up with a more lazy player than we already have. Not all players are like the stereotypes that are thrown throughout the forum. There are good players out there, and they aren't as rare, or endangered as most might think. One of the things I've most enjoyed about this game is learning various gameplay aspects about it, while playing the game. Whether on my own, or from other players, it's been great to discover things about this game. Discovery IMO is a much better teacher than handing the player a list of everything the game does.

If the good players of this game want to "bring up the standard of [play]" (as intelligence is not something that you, or anyone else, can control), then instead of simply getting disgusted at a "level 20 who doesn't know how to target/attack called target", teach the player how to do it. If he/she doesn't get it after you fully explain it, then he/she probably won't get it, and you need to move on. The best tutorial that we, the community, have is each other.

Pay it forward. Applies to knowledge as well as fair play.

I disagree with that. Leave the strategy up for learning, but unless another player tells them, or they extensively read forums (which a vast majority of players don't), then they just won't know about some things. Everyone should at least be told of what exists. They'll still have to figure out the best way to use it.

I certainly wasn't upset about anything that does get told to you when you play through all of Pre-Searing. I would have liked to have been told about targeting, for instance, at some point. And I think it's not unreasonable to just point out, even in some text during a Pre-Searing quest or whatever, that most caster classes should try to avoid melee combat. This might seem obvious to some people, but certainly not all.

That is definitely true, in all communities everywhere. But that doesn't mean Arena Net can't help out. =)

I think it would work better if you don't make everyone do the expanded tutorials. If you're on your 3rd or 4th character that *would* be annoying. Add an Academy to post-searing Ascalon so that everyone gets to decide whether or not they want more training. If people care about learning tactics they'll go there on their own. If they don't care about tactics, they'll have a hard time grouping as the game progresses. At that point, if nobody likes grouping with you because you don't know how to play in a group, it's your own fault. Getting killed all the time might make level 20s in the desert go back and see if they can pick up some "tricks". Have an Instructor guy at the academy with some sort of menu:
Teach me how to fight large groups of enemies
Teach me how to make my energy last longer
Teach me how to provide support to a party
Teach me how to protect the monk

And so on. A good player will go through them all at least once to make sure there isn't something there to learn that they haven't already learned on their own.

Fair enough.

I asked for help, in game no less, about things I didn't understand. Most of the time, I was helped with little to no grief at all from the person with "knowledge". Why do I need to go through something like a tutorial, or extra content, when I can ask someone?

I was happy for the information in pre-searing as well. I'm not intending to give any impression to the contrary. But, I think the pre-searing area does a fair job of going over game mechanics, and basics in that area. I got a sheet of cardboard with my game that outlined all the keys used in game. Some were self explanatory, others I had to ask about. But the whole game was not handed to me on a platter. I had to do everything myself, and find out how it was done.

If it's not obvious to the average Necro/Mesmer/Ranger/Monk/Elementalist that they shouldn't be up front with the Warriors, and can't learn from Death Penalty, a tutorial telling Skippy to stay in the back won't help much.

To a point, but why should they have to, when we could do it without any real hassle. We're playing the game anyway right? How hard is it to type "Press T to attack my target, it's better if you do that" or "Press CTRL+T to call your own target". Might be a pleasant change from "omg u suck noob" and "LISTN 2 ME I NO THIS MISH"

Now that is a good idea. As long as the content is optional, and I can visit it whenever I choose (like an in help menu with activities), I like it.

Everything should always be optional. You should assume that any suggestion someone else makes that can be optional should be.

=-}

A lot of people may not be as outgoing as you are. That's the short answer.

Also, note that I never said you have to go through extra content. I'm just asking for it to be available.

Is that strictly a good thing? I understand what you are saying, but not everyone wants it that way. It's great that you figured it out, but different people want things different ways.

I guess part of my point was that it's unlikely that the amount of information in Pre-Academy was "just right". There's always room for improvement, so if people don't feel like there's too much information forced onto them, then having more would probably be good.


You'd be amazed. Seriously. People just don't know these things. For at least some group of people, they have never touched anything having to do with fantasy, even. How should they know what something called Mesmer means? In fact, how should anyone?

I don't mean to insult anyone by saying this; there's just a lot of people who don't know things, or don't think about them much. Even if the only result is a few more people think about it and figure something out, I think it's worth it.

Imagine you start playing. You make a Mesmer because you like their clothes. They are spiffy, after all. You play a bunch, and die a bunch. But you don't really know why you are dying. Maybe you notice other people die more, or less, or maybe you don't. But even if you notice, if this is the first game of this kind you've played (which for many people, it is), you are probably overwhelmed by the amount of stuff to learn and do, and ignore most of it. I think it would actually be quite easy to not really understand what's going on. You don't see the armor values of other player's, after all. You only see the result, which are probably still confusing. Sometimes you win, and you are happy, and sometimes you don't, and you are sad. Even I don't always know why I've won or lost. For people new to computer games, it must be mind boggling.

(I don't pull this card out much, but I've written game tutorials before. It's hard, and people really do need them. They are so important to have, and to be good.)

Well, I hope you aren't expecting the people who say such things to change. That's part of the reason why I'd like to see it; help isn't always available. Also, something official will answer questions better than most people will.

It's a nice idea to think that we're a loving community and everyone will help everyone else all the time, but it doesn't always work out that way. And would probably work better if people had the easy option of being better informed. =)

I was gonna say that these people need to look at the freakin game manual, but at second glance, it says nothing about target-calling. Maybe its just late for me and I missed it, but I didn't see it. Anyway, I think I had to learn targetting from a fellow guild-mate. Some people don't have that luxury. But I still find it hard to miss assisting when you see "I'm attacking such-and-such. Press 'T' to select my target!" I find that is lack of cooperation and an unwillingness to be helpful.
The manual also doesn't mention the ctrl display command (showing health, energy, dp and such...) I think if it was in the manual, maybe more people would be educated.
However, the aggro circle is mentioned, so I have little patience for people who aggro things left and right. I know some people won't read the manual anyway. If its because they learned the commands on their own or a guildmate or someone else showed them, fine, good for you, you saved yourself the trouble of reading it. To me, someone not knowing aggro is like stepping into a vehicle with someone and halfway to your destination, to tell them to hit the brake and they ask you what it is. I know its a dramatic comparison, but I hope it gets the point across. In either case, something essential that someone should know, but doesn't, will get everyone else in trouble.

Basically...
1) It's the player's fault for not knowing what's in the manual.
2) It's other player's faults for not showing new people what is not in the manual.
3) It's ANet's fault for not including all the commands in the manual.

Also, I think the manual should mention how changing attributes would be beneficial instead of just basically saying, "You can have up to 24 attribute refund points. Using them refunds your attribute points to use them differently." Most people won't think to use another attribute for a different type of situation.
/end rant
BTW, I apologize if any part of my post doesn't make sense or if I come off as extremely bitter. I was grouchy and half-asleep when I wrote it.

It doesn't say that anymore. It just says "I'm attacking such-and-such", the "Press 'T' to select my target!" was dropped at the end of beta for some bazaar reason. If I hadn't played beta, I wouldn't have known how to target, either. This *seriously* needs to be restored to the way it was in beta. Though, it's not like it's hard to click on the targeting thingie on the party menu... that works just like 'T' as well..

People have been conditioned to ignore tool tips. This is painfully obvious when they ask questions like "where's storage?" in pre-searing when one of the *many* tool tips that comes up says that there's storage once you leave the academy. It doesn't help that many of the tool tips are improperly timed, especially the skill related ones. Oh, I've been hurt, I should use [insert basic self heal] to heal myself. That would have been handy to know 5 minutes ago when I was actually in the middle of a fight and getting hurt.

Ducktape's suggestion about a post-searing adademy is an excellent suggestion. I'd think it was even better if I knew people would actually use it. People just want to rush in and learn for themselves, much to the disappointment of the people they get grouped with.

How can anyone think spiffy silk/linen clothes gives you the same amount of protection as a warrior running around in platemail or a ranger with studded leather armor? My roommate was grouped with an elementalist in the Crystal Desert who complained they were still wearing Lion's Arch armor (30 AR, Amnoon has 51 AR and collectors offer 60 AR), so they were clearly aware of their subpar armor rating. Yet, they were the first one to rush in and take agro. I had a warrior in the Ring of Fire mission almost 2 months ago who happened to notice they were still wearing some pre-searing armor pieces! Try explaining that to me.

(Doesn't the character creation say that mesmers are an advanced class, or did they remove that? I forget.)

But see, that's the problem isn't it? I suggest that we should help each other, instead of waiting for A.net to start the rote teaching portion of GW, and someone like you tells me how it will be "easier" to wait.

Well, of course it will. It takes no effort on anyone's part (aside from the developers) to let a "n00b" go through a tutorial. It takes no effort to hope that they will take everything in the imaginary tutorial area to heart. Unfortunatly, this looks less like a concerned "informed player" hoping to help new players everywhere, and more like a way to point a finger at a new player who may have skipped something, or had a momentary lapse of common sense "you saw the tutorial didn't you N00b?".

I don't necessarily want a loving community. That isn't possible. But to say help isn't available is, in essence, not true. Any time there is a player in a group that knows something that any of the other players don't, there is an opportunity to teach, and an opportunity to learn. If players would lose the 12 year old "l337" mentality, and help their fellow players, this would be a much better game.

A tutorial area is a nice idea. But it's wholly unnecessary when you have knowledge that other players don't. Instead of poking fun of them. Or typing in all caps at them when they don't do what you want, calmly explain what they need to be doing. They'll get it eventually. This is a game. Not a job. We don't need on the job training, any more than we already have.

Woot, now I'm "someone like you".

Also, who suggested waiting? I don't understand at all where that comes from. Did anyone suggest that helping other people is bad?

Do you not understand my point? You are trying to change human nature. This is like being in a relationship that isn't working and trying to change the other person. It doesn't work. Ever.

Aside: You also strongly imply (whether or not you meant to) that anyone who is in favor of a tutorial, especially me, goes around insulting people, and gosh darn it, if we'd just be nice a tutorial would be pointless. That's just probably not true for most people who bother to post on forums (trolls excepted). I help people all the time. But I'm no replacement for a good tutorial. Even if I wanted to, I can't educate everyone in Guild Wars, and most of them wouldn't want me to. Many people would prefer to go through a computer guided tutorial to learn things without being embarassed that they don't know it already, rather than bother humans. (Sure, if you have close friends who play the game it may be different, but the most important group to teach is the group without any good friends to teach them... so they can bring in other players.)


The people who are nice will be nice, and the jerks will be jerks, and you can't change that. None of us can.

Have the wisdom to understand the things we can't change. A tutorial is something that could be changed. =)

I love this kinda talk, everyone getting all upset about who is playing the game right. lol, cmon folks, play the game how YOU want to play it, thats the point, this is a hobby not an occcupation.