Mission Difficulty..game loses fun after a while

*Around the Crystal Desert missions and afterwards, missions become too difficult for the average human party and henchmen become essentially useless because of their extremely poor A.I.

-Henchmen are too stupid to complete missions with complicated instructions. Henchmen may have a difficult time defending a fortress and manning ballistas. I know it's the release of the game but, these henchmen seriously need a command system. Not just click and attack. How about, Hold Position, so i can pull from Ether Seals because henchmen are far too stupid to realize their energy is drained and they become amazingly useless?

Please fix pathfinding. What is the point of even ALLOWING people to take henchmen into missions if all they do is get stuck in walls? Pathfinding issues at the Ring of Fire as I type, Im going to have to start over because Mhenlo and Eve got stuck in a volcanic rock.

-Everyone loves warriors for missions. Who needs mesmers and rangers?
Number of tries Warrior took for Thunderhead Keep:1
Number of tries Ranger took for Thunderhead Keep: 18

thats a good point, it would also be nice if there were commands for things like following your path exactly or avoiding aggro... pathfinding i havent had much of a problem with... and i am a warrior, so i cant complain, though its usually the monks that are needed most... its hard for warriors to find parties for fissure and underworld and sometimes in the tombs, though its always harder for rangers and eles and stuff... there are almost always enough people looking for a party though that its easy to just start your own.

rangers dont have a problem i dont know what your talking about. ever hear of trapping?

re: pathing: haven't had any problem since the pathing patch with the exception of a hench getting stuck behind something (not in something). However I like the idea of "follow my footsteps" command. There should also be an "avoid" aggro command where they follow you staying clear of aggro.

re: difficulty: I don't see a problem... I've been playing for 33 minutes and I'm already level 20 ascended

seriously... it can be tough, but you have to either luck out with a good group or do it three times with henchies (3 times isn't bad) 1st to taste it, 2nd to understand it, 3rd to finish it. Also, if you want it to be easier, do some research, look on these forums for maps, tips, etc.

There are ways around this simple AI Caster;
if you make it a habit to "move" after designating a target and telling the warrior henchmen to attack, Alesia and crew remain with you instead of bum rushing the monsters.
Likewise, you can use obstacles to your advantage of you "pull" the creatures to you instead of running up to meet them.

I've had great luck with that, and hey, at least the NPCs don't "rush" the mission when they decide their bored, or have "already done this crap earlier."
lol

Talesin

When forming a group and I can decide which classes to take with me (which happens very rarely) I'd always take a Ranger. A Mesmer only when we can get 8 people groups. For 6 people a Mesmer is not my first choice.

The problem are the people who think 6 W/Mo and 2 Mo/* are the best or maybe take 2 eles with them also.

There is nothing you can do about it

On european servers you normally don't get a chance to form a team, you have to take what's available. So I played with all kinds of teams - and as long as your offensive power is good enough (means, atleast 1 or 2 warriors and 1 or 2 eles) you can win nearly every mission - only exception so far is "Thirsty River" were you need either a mesmer or more offensive power (or both ) to get down the priests quick enough.

Except for special cases every random group can win if they play as a team. And believe me - I played with the most akward class combinations

The missions don't bother me, they are all do able in a group that works together, they actually promote teamplay or Die. I personally have not been stuck on any of the missiosn for long and have finished the game with my 2 main chrs, But the areas from the crystal Desert and beyond kinda suck. Everywhere else you get mixed level spawns, some are easy, some are hard, you can pick you fights and in some cases even wander through an areas without hiring an army to accompany you.
After the crystal Desert 99% of Mobs are higher level than you, sure its good for xp, but after awhile it sucks. You enter an area in the southern shiverpeaks and bingo, there are 15 ice imps, all lvl 22, 3 groups of 5 stonesummit, if you lucky they only have one healer per group. The areas get so out of whack its untrue. What happens, everyone 'farms' the doable areas. Snake Dance is the only area in southern shiverpeaks that has the balance right, you can pick you fights, attacking one generally isn't suicide with 15 others jumping in the battle and you are not down to -60 within 15mins play. Slight exaggeration, only just.
Missions hard, sure, Dungeon / quest areas hard, sure. Explorable areas with nothing but xp and 3-4 elites to capture, they should be fun not death on a stick.
A.net have spent so much time building these wonderful areas to explore and quest in, then they go kill an areas fun factor by slapping spawns of 15+ creatures togther.
Henchmen officially are useless in these areas. You will do them, you will explore them all, and you will have a hefty death pen. I'd go so far as to say you will fight a mob, kill 2 die, return to mob kill another 2 , die rince and repeat till the area is done, this is definately not my idea of fun.

Worst offenders:-

Southern shiverpeaks.
Tasca's Demise, Mineral Springs,Ice Floe,Lonar's Pass, Ice Dome,

Crystal Desert.
Arid Sea,The scar,Vultures Drift.

For me personally the PvE started to lose its 'fun' factor from the Crystal Desert. I enjoyed the missions, but the exploration left a bad taste in my mouth after such a good balance through the rest of the game.

I absolutely hated the Crystal Desert and the Shiverpeaks afterwards on my first time around.

However the following times I've found them much easeir to do, going so far as to actualy finish many of the missions with nothing but henches when I could not get a good enough group.

I don't know if its wether they made them easier or if it was just intimidation that made it seem so hard the first time around. I no longer froth at the mouth like I did the first time.

I agree. I consider myself a casual gamer [not a hardcore-read-every-single-forum-build-up-uber-stats kinda player who cakewalk through missions]. What happened with me, i got my first character to Crystal Desert and simply got too frustrated [i was lvl 19 when i got there mind you, so XP at that stage is irrelevant to me]. So i ended up making a new character, start from scratch, i took that one again to crystal desert, opened up all the "outposts" but got too frustrated with the missions itself....and then i simply made another character and restarted.

Consciously i did it because i wanted to see if being Mes/Necro simply is a pain in the arse and that i can simply have more fun going fullblown elementalist etc.

Unconcsciously i reached a "difficulty"-frustration level which basically drained all the fun out of it. I simply lost all motivation to do the final missions if it's going to be one frustrating-repetive--60%DP slogfest. I rather just spend my days in the arena "casually" PvP'ing with whatever i unlocked up to Crystal Desert.

Most people respond to these kind of posts with "You must do it this way or that way, and that is easy if you have x,y and z with you" yadah. In the end, walking outside of Augury Rock and dying -instantly- to 3 Hydras is NOT fun. It is amusing the first 3 times it happens, but then it gets old real fast...and from what i gather, Hydras are the LEAST of my worries , it only gets worse! So that's a motivation killer right there .

I know it probably won't help you, but:

The key really is teamplay. Most PuG aren't able to do well. I've done a few missions and quests with PuG but I totally agree: after the desert PuG really start to suck (not that they are that great before). Try to get into a decent guild, it will make your life a lot easier. Or get enough friends to form a decent PuG. Normally if 3 or 4 good players lead a PuG the PuG will do well. A PuG really needs a strong leader. You can try to fill that role.

I completly agree to both of you! Games should be fun and not frustration! Make hard areas for the people that like that, but everything I have to do to finish the game, should have a moderate difficulty level! So every way I can take to go to a new mission shouldn´t be a frustration!

I hope you meant that you were Soloing the game up to this point...

If 3 Hydras can wipe your party, you really need to review your character and how you are playing.
A party of just Henches can take 3 Hydra with no problem ...

A thing most people complaining about henchmen probably miss is the fact that you CAN control them and give them orders to which they abide.

It is about target calling. Select a target and hit ctrl + space to mark that thing as your target... all your henchmen will just disengage their current battle and fight that enemy. You want to lure? Simply attack and then ctrl+space yourself you spam "I'm following..."... guess what will happen? Your henchmen will disengage the combat and run up to you and only attack again if you or they get attacked after they went near you.

About the later missions, the only really difficulty is the grind to form a party. Having 3 People sitting in the english district of Ice Caves of Sorrow is NO fun. Even if you'd invite all of the outpost you'd still have no party.

/edit:
About the desert... the only real hard part of it used to be the one in front of amnoon with thousands and thousands of scarabs, each ripping apart your enchantments one after the other. And this is one of the most annoying things in the game in my opinion. It is the heavy enchantment removal and interrupting going on. Every mob will have it's personal way of removing your enchantment and handing it back to you in the form of heavy damage.
And this is, to say the least... ANNOYING. You just can't use skills like Illusionary Weaponry as those get dispelled the second you engage in combat. What is that skill for anyways? Dispelled within seconds in EVERY part of the game. Damn, nowadays you'll get your enchantments kicked back in Ascalon.
That is just so fricking no fun. And if there is no enchantment removal spam (and it IS spam... getting 3-4 of them thrown in your face at the same time), you'll have heavy interrupt spam. What is this? Enchantments = "Teh evil!!!!!11" or what?

i found it fairly easy once i figured out how to use portals, dodge and storm chaser ftw!

For the record I have had no luck getting the henchmen to disengage from a mob by using the "follow self". Even running way way back doesn't typically work when they charge. Also it seems to run 50 / 50 whether henchmen will attack the moment I cast something or not attack at all, or wait until I actually attack (not cast) to engage.

Alesia definitely does not heal in a meaningful way.

Rayne will rez Alesia in the middle of combat where she instantly dies again. Calling a different target frequently does not result in the henchies breaking off. Again that one's about 50 / 50

Once you can get Lina and Alesia together it seems to improve. However, Alesia's only use, in my experience, is to rez everyone else. I never expect a heal from her during a fight.

Dunham does seem to make things go a bit smoother oddly enough. Though he is fascinated by distortion.

Eve loves to give blood ritual.

Orion, in my experience is useless utterly useless.

The henchies have a lot of room for improvement though once you get Lina and Alesia, it seems to improve.

Most people dont understand the idea of artificial intelligence. I can do almost any mission in the game with henchies, including ones that i stuggle with with people. The fact of the matter is, they do what you tell them to do, maybe to a flaw. You have to realize you cannot run with them, after all, they are programmed to fight. However, henchies also will not just blindly charge into mobs unless you tell them to. Dont expect them to suddenly disengage either because you have a sudden change of heart. As long as you pick your fights wisely, they will do as good of a job or better than your average human. Alesia does a better job healing than many humans because she is simply faster. Along with the burden of AI comes the insight as well. She can foresee when you will be attacked and heal you right as you take damage. I've especially found that with my mesmer/necro, even though I'm level 14 in the desert, i can run through missions easily with henchies. I just sit there and sacrifice myself giving her infinite energy, and because she has uber regeneration, she just spams heal other and word of healing, keeping the entire party alive for extended periods of time. She only does a bad job healing when she is low on energy, as would any human. And the mage, well that guy just kicks some ass. AI or not that fire storm of his has pwned many. The fact is, the AI for this game is actually very good. The problem is that people expect the henchmen to be mind readers and realize that when you tell them to attack, you actually ment to run. It isnt bad artificial intelligence, it's a lack of human intelligence that will cause problems. With the henchmen now being infused, i would say that probably every mission in the game can be done with them (other than possibly denravi which requires multiple runners to be effective, but maybe that is doable with henchman).

It's an under-exagerated example [i could've said 6 or 12 and add a few sanddrakes to the show too etc etc] . My [team] is not necisarily wiped, point is -every- encounter has the potential of killing multiple members on your team [if not all of them]. Add on top of that the fact that these encounters are placed every 2 steps. I cant remember how many times i was in a team [not henchies] where we reverted to "lets run for it, please someone just make it to the next zone"....

That's the operative word: almost. I've made it to the ascension quests exclusively with henches, but Thirsty River and Elona is a brick wall. Possibly if I was a monk and didn't have to rely on Alesia it'd be possible, but if you have any hints on how a W/Me can get a hench-based team to survive *despite* Alesias AI in those missions, I'm all ears.

You're kidding! Noone makes sure the enemy is really dead and not just faking as well as Orion!

There is very little in this game that is difficult; if you know how to do it. The thing is, that learning how to do it is as much part of the game as the actual doing.

Seriously, which is more satisfying ? Pwning hydras left right and centre the first time you step out of Augory Rock, or getting your behind handed to you the first three times and then learning how to get the better of then ? Yes dying in 10 seconds flat is far from enjoyable, but once you learn to cope, and it can be done, then you will actually feel you've achieved something other than grinding skill unlocks.

Then we've had different experiences with the AI.

I've watched the henchies charge at a mass of mobs, without any input from me. I've watched Alesia stand there and zot away with her wand (at the begining of the fight) and not heal. I've called for henchies to follow and they remain engaged. I've called for them to follow during their madcap charge toward the mobs (Stefen and Tom love to do this) and they won't turn around. I've watched Devona stand in place while under attack and not fight back. I've called targets and watched the henchies not disengage their indvidual targets in order to focus fire. Orion's fire storm drops about 1 second after everything is dead and rarely during a fight.

In short, while the AI is better than many games it has a lot of room for improvement. I would note that it does not explicitly follows the instructions of the controller and people should be aware of that.

Now if you have 2 live people you can do, what we affectionately call, the "Henchie Shuffle" to keep the henchies in place for pulling. If you can keep them all together they tend to work better. Perhaps there is a distance effect to their willingness to respond to things, I'm not sure. What I am sure of, is that they will not always do what the human player instructs them to do, in so much as a human player can instruct.

If you have at least 1 other live person, and like to dance, it seems then henchies are easier to control.

I stand corrected on that one. He really does make sure they're dead!

Sorry, but the Henchies after acenscion. The ones that are NPC's in the game like Mehnlo, Devona, Aiden are AWESOME. They are steps above most people that will party with you. Having a problem finding a monk? Grab Mehnlo, or Lina.

I have actually had numerous times where it was just a couple of henchies fighting, and I was dead. They managed to pull it off. They seem pretty smart too, because they will res the healer first, unless you click on your name.

I will now reveal the secret to doing missions with henchman. The best kept secret in the game. Here it is!!!

Target 1 monster at a time, and do not take on mobs larger than 5. A hench party can pretty easily handle around 5 monsters. With a couple of deaths. What you must do though is have an understanding of target of oppurtunity. Usually monk like monsters first, followed by mesmer type monsters, then casters. Click on 1 monster, and do not click on any others until that one is dead. If you go clickity clickity on different monsters. Here henchies will attack this one for awhile, then this one. Even if you are getting wooped on stay on target. Most people when they start taking fire freak. Side step about 3-4 steps to try and get out of the way, but you have to stay on target. Take out monsters that are softer, and are more detrimental to your cause, like imps first.

If henchies are being stubborn, then use CTRL and call a target. They will attack. Sometimes they do not read the team chat screen because they are busy in the heat of battle, and miss your OMGWTF NOOOBBBBSSS telling them they are doing something wrong.

Wow we've derailed this topic.

I'll just note that henchies are not 100% anything, they do some random stuff and they do it frequently. They also seem to have pretty distinct personalities and capability (especially comparing Stefen to Tom). Mehnlo, I find to be worthless I prefer the Lina and Alesia combo to Mehnlo. Stefen is better than Tom and Devona is somewhere between. Cyn is pretty good, Eve I like (and she's well dressed). The difficulty of the game when using henchies is going to be directed by what professions the player has. I find the game can be far more difficult for a mesmer than for a warrior (for example) only because the mesmer has less staying power than the warrior and Alesia, again in my experience, just doesn't heal reliably.

There are regions of the game that are far more difficult than others. There are missions that are more difficult than others. I found thunderhead keep only beatable with human players by using the ballistas (playing as a mesmer). But Thirsty River, to me, wasn't as difficult. Dragon's Lair is easy with just henchies. Masses of hydra are not fun but with some patience I find it is possible to fight them in isolated packs 3 and they don't scatter from chaos storm. Though frequently you can get multiple groups fighting in succession in the desert and that can be extremely rough.

If you can find at least 1 other human player then I think that would help with the difficulty of certain areas as it is easier to work with the henchies and keep them organized.

You didnt explain the secret of "only aggroing a max of 5 mobs at a time" . How many jade scarabs usually pop out of the ground when a patrol of minotaurs decides to run past as well? Luring/Pulling with henchies is easier said than done :P

Of course the targeting is a problem too. Alot of classes do not have "single target" spells that works "on a target till he dies, on to next target". An Elementalist trying to drop a meteor shower can not target the mob that is already being killed [otherwise the spell fails if the mob is dead before he is done casting]. A Mesmer might have to target multiple mobs to get various hexes/disruptions on. A monk, well with henchies you got no choice, but healing monks can not be expected to target enemies as well....and so on.

[I am still looking for a way to get my henchies to aggro without ME actually attacking as well....?] How do you do it with a POT in your hands [which you can't drop?]

Exactly. I have had far more success using henchmen than I have with pick-up groups. Henchmen do exactly what you tell them to do. Since henchmen are extremely predictable, you should always know exactly how they will react to any given situation. This is a big bonus compared to the unpredictable human players who pretend to be "leet" and aggro every mob on the map.

Ok the secret to only aggroing 5 monsters at a time is go slow. Especially in an area with monsters that pop out of the ground. Take 5 steps wait for a breath. Monsters pop usually when you are within aggro range. The reason they are popping up all around you is that you are running, and by the time they come out of the ground and you notice you are in the middle of them. I think the most scarabs that pop out at one area, without running around and aggroing more is 6, and that is right outside Amnoon, usually a little to the left of that gully you start out in.

Patrols you can not help, they are meant to screw over your situation. Your best thing to do is watch their path. If an unforseen patrol comes and the 2 minotaurs are to much to handle, kill as many as you can before you go. That way when you res you can easily head back and fight much smaller numbers.

As far as an elementalist (AOE spell concern) goes, working with henchies is how you learn to be good. The trick is to TAB your target before you get into aggro range then press your skill use button (1,2,3 whatever). Your toon will then run into battle and as soon as you are in range will start to cast. You will see the skill flash while it is waiting to be cast. An elementalist cast range is just outside of Aggro. You will see your henchies rush past you into battle and start attack that target you are dropping your meteor shower on. By the time they get there it will be close to dead, henchies will finish it off. Then choose your next target. One that is in the middle of the mob. This way your AOE has the greatest over all area effect, and it will take your henchies just a little longer to get to them.

Ok I see the problem you are having with your monk. It is probably more of a problem for a warrior if they were to have to carry a POT, because they can not really cast. Here is the trick, try this. TAB your target, then hold CTRL while you press SPACE BAR. You may get an error message saying you can not fight, but it should still give your henchies a target to attack.

Major derail.

Hmm, Take hanchies to Ice Floe and get to Marhan's Grotto. The henchies AI is good, but lets face it they are expendable, if they where actual players they would be -60, yes -60 I am 100% certain you will not get through without a hefty Death pen for Henchies and yourself. It is areas like this that actually spoil the game and the fun factor.
As for the crystal desert, you should have tried it when it was first released, the Hydra where in groups of 5+ not 3 like they are now and they where more heavily packed together, many of these areas where -60% death pen areas, but A.net have actually adjusted the area spawns so they are not as deadly.
It is not that the AI is poor, it is that alot of the Highend areas need rebalanceing as there are simply put TOO MANY creatures closely packed together. Pre ascention, if you accidently attracted another Mob, you had a 50/50 chance, either to win or get away. After ascention it is more like 85/15 that you will die.
If I go on any more, I'll drail topic in another direction