Fair PvP

Well, if you never piss me off twice, you can't reach more than twice. =-}

trolling...no I was simply arguing for something I believe in...am I suddenly not allowed to have an opinion on the matter?\

EDIT:ugh this is Iteicea, was on friend's computer...and forgot to log him off, sry

Now that they've spent all this effort adding the faction system, we can safely say that they will never, ever, do UAX. Ever. So you might as well learn to live with it. Unless you're just beating off in the suggestions forum, which is ok, we all do it :P

Getting rid of att. refund points in town is pointless. (it's incredibly rare for anyone to want to completely change their att setup in a battle... since their skills are fixed.) Better to get rid of them for PVP characters and PVE characters that have finished the game. And prevent att. refunds in battle altogether.

edit: there's still planning in all-template arena. It just becomes team planning only, with no creativity or individual planning. But hey, ITS FAIR.

double edit: To a degree, pve players are forced to play pvp - the pve portion of the game is short and there's no timewasting activities such as making money to get high level stuff available. (farm your elite mount, anyone?) Look at it this way - I want to play WoW with my friends, but I detest being forced to play a "play mechanic that doesnt suit me" - ie. repetitive timewasting grind. Should they change WoW to suit me? Should they change GW to suit you?

You know thats why there are low level arenas all over the world before you hit 20, why? just so you can get an idea of how PvP is like, how PvP work, so you dont face advanced PvP'ers, "please make fair pvp" sounds like you havent put much attention to the game, go play low level arenas, then, when you get the hang of how PvP works, you'll have tons of fun on 20 PvP.

Not that I care, but the lower level arenas are even more unfair due to the presence of tricked up armour and weapons from high level characters :P

For a first time player the ascalon arena would probably be a scary and baffling place :P

They should probably introduce a practice arena with no rewards, where you can play 2v2 with friends of your choice and they can lead you into it gently.

They are random areanas. If someone wants to spend ALOT of time and money to get to drognars beofre passing level 10 then be my guest. The chances that they'll be randomly grouped with someone who's done the same thing is very unlikely.

This used to not be a problem beacuse you gained exp while PvPing... Maybe they could remove faction from low lvl areanas and brinng back exp? Then again I've noticed no such problems myself.

It is pretty ridiculous to assume that a "fair" match-up could ever be achieved between an experienced player and one who just bought the game. Without some experiece of the game you can never hope to be able to take a person with experience. This is why the low level arenas are random so people of different experience levels can be paired together to make it as fair as possible.

I agree with them too, PVP right now is just unfair right now, the good guilds are going more and more up, bad guils going less and less down why? they are draining all the skilled players, and keeping the new players no where to learn and no where to go

and like some teams now, its totaly off the sense of GWs, 5 ele, 3 monks in HOH? wow wth, its no balance, play damage no skill in there, and guess what i saw, 8 monks! 8 monks, wth, no sense of balance! but plays extremely well and beat us!, theres no sense of balance, skills can mass like lightning orb, if 5 ele cast it unless u have protective spirit its no way u cant get 1 shot, so about this pvp team fairness, its TOTALLY unfair

You can counter any build if you think about it and bring the correct skills. Part of creating your own party is how you plan to play it, you dont need balance of professions in your party if you have ideas for an all caster or all tank group. By crying "unfair" you are proving that what you really need is to get better at PvP, practice more and learn counter strategies

isn't that kind of the point? If you play well you beat the other team. Call me crazy but I always figured the best team should win.

best team? wuts ur sense of best team, a more balanced one or some spike team that doesn't allow any other chars in group, doesn't that mean those chars is useless? than why bother creating them, all im saying is PVP right now is messed because u jsut have to mass something and some character are forgotten and no use

So untrue. This game is press a button and go. Winning a fight means you were f***ing lucky not to get to counter by an opposing build.

Ever stepped outside the random arena and tried the real PvP?

D&D didn't require skill, it required you to use your best attribute to their fullest and work with the team. Every class except the Bard was useful. NOBODY excelled in another person's job nor did anybody try to do there job. A warrior cannot heal like a Cleric and Ranger couldn't benefit much from stealth as a Rogue. Penalities against armor, levels and cross-classes were made to ensure this.

This is not so for this game. In fact, the imbalance gaps between classes is huge and versatility has made many classes useless. All because of cross-classing and the lack of penalities towards equipment or class abilities. In this game, 3 to 4 class out of 6 are useless. Necromancers, Rangers and Warriors are not needed.

Rangers as I said are at a disadvantage because everything they can do, mesmers, necromancers and elementalists can do better.

Warriors aren't really needed because they can't do any of the following: 1) Spike damage 2) High DOTs and 3) Heal others. What's the point of having heavy armor when High DoTs and Spike Damage can bypass your and armor and kill you. Not to mention, smiter monks have put them to shame. You know it's bad when the healer starts whooping your ass. The only way you can make them useful is by crossing a caster with their primary.

Necromancers can do high DoTs, which will catch your attention, but spike damage from a lightning orb will make everyone deaf to your presence or contributation.

Been in GvG, HoH, random teams and team battles. Again, winning means that the opponent(whether it's 4 to 8 person team) fought didn't use a build that didn't counters yours.

We got owned yesterday by a team that consisted of 6 Rangers. It was some korean guild, don't know the name.

We often take one necro with us. The degen is nice and the energy support is just great.

You can also say a Mesmer is not needed. Backfire can be replaced by Mark of Subversion, energy denial can be done by a ranger, interrupts too.

An ele is not needed, because warriors can spike great with final thrust. Or you don't need spike damage when you can DoT. Monks are really useless because every class can self heal...

So... In some way every class is 'useless' only if played right the class can be great.

2-3 hammer warriors own a monk in no time if they can get close enough. 2 Rangers in a team and your opponent has a constant 7 health degen (bleed + poison). It's very cheap for the rangers to keep it up. Also Rangers and Warriors are great for running (for example for getting the flag). A ranger can pin down very good.

A necro can give energy support so your monks and eles always have enough. The all-minions-build is also pretty scary. Yesterday in a guild fight there was a necro (or more necros, don't know exactly) taht put about 20 health degen on me. A healing breeze did nothing, maybe reduced it to 8 degen or so, but I had a hard time just to heal the degen.

All these 3 classes are really usefull.

I don't know which Tombs and GvG you are playing, but obviously we are playing different ones...

What was the point of this post? That you sucked?

We often take one necro with us. The degen is nice and the energy support is just great.

Your point?

You can also say a Mesmer is not needed. Backfire can be replaced by Mark of Subversion, energy denial can be done by a ranger, interrupts too.

MoS does less damage backfire and a good mesmer doesn't always have backfire. These days good mesmers use diversion, which beats out a ranger interrupt and Deb Shot. With a fast casting and diversion, can shutdown 5 out 8 skills of either a spellcaster or non-spellcaster within 10 seconds.

An ele is not needed, because warriors can spike great with final thrust. Or you don't need spike damage when you can DoT. Monks are really useless because every class can self heal...

Final Thrust requires the enemy to be at 49% and it only does 64. An elementalist can spike damage at any time and do up to 131 damage with Phoenix.

So... In some way every class is 'useless' only if played right the class can be great.

Clearly, you are speaking non-sense to save face.

2-3 hammer warriors own a monk in no time if they can get close enough.

And a good monk won't let them do that. Pacifism anyone?

2 Rangers in a team and your opponent has a constant 7 health degen (bleed + poison). It's very cheap for the rangers to keep it up. Also Rangers and Warriors are great for running (for example for getting the flag). A ranger can pin down very good.

Same with Necromancer on Degen. And that's the only reason a warrior is in your group is because of his running abilities. Though most smart class often snare and spiked damage the warrior to death.

A necro can give energy support so your monks and eles always have enough. The all-minions-build is also pretty scary. Yesterday in a guild fight there was a necro (or more necros, don't know exactly) taht put about 20 health degen on me. A healing breeze did nothing, maybe reduced it to 8 degen or so, but I had a hard time just to heal the degen.

Boring.

Exactly, what I was think too.

By best team, I mean the team that works together, does things in a fluid manner and is able to counter what you throw at them, I don't mean any specific build is the best...

No such team exist because they are better individuals and better builds.

If you want an anti competitive game go play WoW or something, quit trying to make everyone suck as bad as you do, to make it "fair" sheesh friggin kids today. want to skip to the last level and play with a god code, and if they can't, they think the game sucks. This generation needs an enema.

Like taking lollipops from children. give em something else to suck on. Oh yea we did... PvE missions.

Now go away child... your bothering me...

opps slipped into W.C. Fields impression for a sec. lol

omg lol...greatest post ever, that is exactly what I was trying to say. The real reason people cry unfair is because they fail at PvP. Practice and learn the hard way like we all did and it will seem much more fair.

This statement proves that you know nothing about PvP. There is a thing called BotM. This BotM lasts for a month or so, imagine that, and then someone discovers a counter build and beats the hell out of the current BotM. There is no "best" build or "best" individual. It is all how you use the build or individuals you have! If you use the right skills, work together well, you have a good chance at winning.

LOL!

I said "better", not best. You're basically saying the same thing I just said.

It doesn't matter how skilled you are, a elementalist is not going to take out mesmer with shutdown spells and a warrior isn't going to kill a necromancer design to kill warriors. There is no skill involve whatsoever in this game. Fights are decides by your luck to not go up against a team that has a counter for your build.

Why?
Those games already exist - they are called first person shooters. Even in those, it's whoever gets the favorite weapon first beats everybody down with it.
I think a lot of people have a differing opinion of "fair." GW has been up front about their game being based on skill, not anything else. A person who is not as skilled as someone else is certainly going to think the game is "unfair" or "unbalanced."

Perhaps what is really needed is a "handicap" like in golf?

Talesin

That's why your team assists...so you can focus on taking down one target, PvP isn't one on one, so I'm not sure why your comparing once class against another.

Yes, somewhat. Though a good team can counter most of what is thrown at them. Granted some builds will beat another build 99% of the time. But, how often are you thrown up against a build that is a direct counter to your build?

My primary reason for wanting to add fair PvP to GuildWars is because it would be easy to add without taking anything away, and I think the game would be stronger for it. Also, because I think it would make a decent number of people quite happy (even though many people would not care). Lastly, because I want to play it because I think it would be fun, of course. ;-)

I think the comparison to first person shooters is largely irrelevant. Tons of fair games exist; I could bring up chess, coin flipping, or arm wrestling as reasonably as you mention FPS games. That is no reason why Guild Wars shouldn't include some form of extremely skill-based.

- Certainly everyone has their own opinion of what fair is, and how far to one aspect the game should be. Some people will want more luck in favor of skill, or to sacrifice anything in the name of backstory or roleplaying, or even choices that merely make Arena Net a buck. All of these things are factors. I'd believe there's at least a sizable Guild Wars population that would enjoy a PvP venue which is on more equal footing. As always, note that I'm not asking them to change any existing venues in any way, just to add a more fair, more skill-based venue.

- I strongly object to the idea that anyone who isn't the best at the game will automatically assume the game is unfair or unbalanced. I think a lot of people are wiser than that. (Saying so is also a sly insult, which I don't really appreciate, but I'm not going to make a big deal of it if you aren't. My personal skill is far from what I care about here.) There are methodical ways to at least measure how skill base a competitive format is, vs. how luck based, vs. "grind" based. Mostly, I'm looking for a format which is unaffected by grind (but without changing any existing PvP formats, before everyone and their mother start yelling about a full unlock, which is not at all what I want). [/i]

- A handicap system for some parts of the game would be great, and relatively easy to implement (and with many choices for how to do so). Anything which makes a game a better battle between unequal players will make the game more fun; the lesser players can win sometimes, and the stronger players will still be challenged. I applaud this as a great idea. As a brief thought of ways to handicap (assuming you've figured out which teams are better through previous play): Add or remove attribute points (easy and with an excellent granularity), or skill slots (much harder and less useful), or even whole players.

That said, I'm still interested in trying an entire skill-based PvP venue, which I think would be relatively low cost for Arena Net to implement (at least some versions of it), and would greatly please a significant number of players (if not a majority).

I still like my initial idea of adding an arena (of any kind) that only template PvP characters can enter, because it seems so incredibly easy to implement (a small check for placing it on the map or not, and otherwise make it identical to Lion's Arch or Droknar's). I'm not saying it's the best or only idea, and I'm quite open to other thoughts (like handicapping).

This could easily be done by increasing the available PvP templates and having an Arena type that is limited to ONLY using these (unaltered) characters.

Fair is not having all. Sure having all COULD be fairER than actual but I doubt it.

Rather: give a subset of skills to each character, the same for everyone. Give them the same weapon. Give them the same armor and the same health and energy. That's fair. Is it interesting? For some, probably. For me, just a couple times.

It removes strategy and leaves only tactics to it. It helps ME since I'm a far better tactician than I am a strategician, but unless it has a number of different points to balance, it gets boring fast. Just the same difference you have between chess and miniature strategy games.

We've got a game that any casual player - like me - can play and have good chances at. We've got a fine and interesting game. Asking for it to be fairer than it is, sounds pretty pointless to me.

What I'd like to ask the original poster is (and it is no rethorical question): why? what's wrong in having a) a selection of skills that favours strategy, and b) an unlocking mechanism that makes people interested in and encouraged to play more?

Thanks,
Calimar.

EDIT- I don't think Chess is boring, anyway.

I'd like to see a mesmer, necro, or ele cause bleeding, crippled, burning, knockdown, and blindness with 4 skills.

Final Thrust requires no energy or cast time for one thing, which means its almost impossible to disrupt. It also is used where a warrior usually is playing, near enemies. In order for Phoenix to do max damage, the ele would literally have to be right next to his target, which usually isn't a very good thing. It also has a long cast time, making it easily disruptable.

Pacifism is never going to save a monk from any warrior. It's a hex so it can be easily removed, and it isn't gonna last long enough for a monk to make a clean getaway. And if there are 2-3 hammer warriors on you, using pacifism on one isn't gonna help much.

Seeing as this isn't a 1v1 game, of course an ele normally wouldn't take out a mesmer. But say that ele is being supported by a ranger who's distracting the mesmer? Or say that warrior is being supported by a monk? It may not matter how skilled you are individually, but your team's skill is what will decide victory.

I agree completely. That is my point.

Yes, the "subset of skills" is generally what I'm aiming at here. That's exactly what I've been trying to describe, if poorly.

Strategy is certainly reduced, but hardly removed. As long as you still have team building choices, there are strategies. You can still go in with an all-healer team, or all elementalist team, etc. Those are different strategies.

Even then, focusing on tactics is a fine thing. Note that I'm only asking that this be added to the existing game, not that it replace anything else. Then there would be a place to practice tactics.

Why? Everything can be improved. Guild Wars is a wonderful game. That's why I care enough to want to make it better. Saying, "Hey, this is already good, don't touch anything", doesn't seem like the right attitude to me.

(a) I have no problem with a selection of skills that favors strategy. However, if we take that idea to an extreme, that's fully unlocking everything. I'm don't want that. And it's a big gray area, regardless. It's obviously stupid for everyone to have (for example) only one skill. But there's a big range between "one skill" and "all skills and runes and items". Templates are one route to this end.

(b) I like the unlocking mechanism in Guild Wars. I have no desire to change the current unlocking mechanism. If you see a place where I state that I want to change the unlocking mechanism, then someone else has cracked my account. ;) Seriously, many people keep debating with "the original poster" (i.e.: me) as if I've said I want fully unlocked PvP. I don't want fully unlocked PvP to replace the current PvP system. I don't actually care if a fully unlocked PvP system exists at all, really.

Thanks for the thoughtful post.

Dust Trap, Fire Trap and Spike Trap are only the 3 skills that can do it perfectly.

It doesn’t matter if it’s isn’t a 1 on 1 game or not. The point was there is no skill in this game. The gameplay is based on rock, paper and scissors method. If you have a rock dominate party, a paper party is going to kill you.

I don't mean to insult, but it's stupid to say there is any skill in this game when you or your teammate already have the advantage over the person they are fighting. As you mention in post, the Ranger assisting the elementalist already has an advantage over spellcaster. So it wasn't skill or assist, having a class that counter another certain class was the big advantage right there.

Most warriors don't bring anti-hex to battlefield so that's big advantage for the monk. And before you note a mesmer or monk will break the hex, the mesmer have his hand full with the other teams monk and your own will have his hands full with the team you are against.

You need barbed for the bleeding, which makes it 4.

So what if there are two rock dominate parties? Two teams with almost the same build. The team with the most skill is going to win. Yes every build has it's strengths and weakness, but a good team can find a way to counter the weakness and still stand a chance against a team that has the class advantage.

Pacifism:
For 8-18 seconds, target foe cannot attack. This effect ends if the target takes damage.

You would have to cast this on a warrior not taking any damage at all, as well as make sure your team doesn't attack him. A warrior not taking any damage is bad enough, and it's so easy to just run around until you take a hit, especially from AoE spells. If a monk is relying on an enemy warrior to not take damage for the monk's personal survival, who's team is he really helping?

No contest. Warriors are the last to be fought. Everyone on the opposing team will be on the other side of the battleground, focusing on your monk, not the warrior.

As much as you click your heels, no, there is no skill involves. If you have the same primaries picked, the fight will be decided by your secondary. If the classes have the same secondary, the fight will be decided by what skills were bought.

A R/Me who use conjure phantasm is probably going to lose to a R/Me with shatter hex. And if you want to be a pain in the ass and say what happens if they have the same skills, which is highly unlike, then it’ll be a LLLLLOOONNNG fight and the fight will be decide on who makes a mistake first.

And no personal skill involve, why do you think a premade builds have been HoH.


I don't care and that has nothing to with skill. Most of what you mention is only useful against warriors who aren't all that useful in the first place.

OMG! Captain Guru, your a bitter person. I'm guessing some team wiped the floor with your team in about 30 seconds in HoH and ever since you have decided the world is out to get you. Well, I've got news for you, PvP is fair, and by saying that it is unfair you are trying to validate your complete lack of ability.

I've had winning streak in HoH, which pretty much throws your "I can't play" arguement out the window buddy. In fact, your argue sounds a lot like those lame Rangers defenders who come up with logics that people who say Rangers such are people who aren't good with them. I'm good with Rangers and say they suck because I've played other class and compare the Rangers to the other classes.

And no pvp isn't fair due imbalance issue with classes. Again, as much as you want to prove I'm wrong, the result speak for themselves at the many numbers of Rangers and Necromancers left out of team in PvE and PvP.

Rangers and Necros are left out because they aren't flashy, and there roles are understood. When someone says warrior, what do you think? Big, strong, hulk smash door kinda guy. Monk goes along with healer, cleric, medic w/e. Elementalists are like wizards, mages, etc. and have all those big flashy spells, that do big damage and explode and all that. Most of the other classes don't have predefined roles, since they are usually different in every game.

Also, you say rangers suck, yet you don't give any reason except "I'm good with Rangers and say they suck because I've played other classes and compare the Rangers to the other classes." Comparing classes is absolutely the worst reason to say a class is bad. Just like you said, every class has an advantage over another, so there is no way comparing them is in any form fair.

< dont feed the trolls >

Also, you can't say ranger is worse because you've played other classes and they were better. Almost everyone has a class that they are just better at. So maybe your good with a ranger, but not as good as someone who has the natural ability to play that class right.

Words of wisdom.

Right on. Everyone should go throught the game once, you'll get some much needed battle experience so that they can last more than 5 seconds in the arenas. And since the faction points came out, no one has a right to whine. You have to play the game to get good at it. Arena Net doesn't give handouts. Yes, it is that simple but I am amazed that people aren't getting it.

There they are many people in pvp now who went through pve and they normally the first ones to be beaten.

"We've got a game that any casual player - like me - can play and have good chances at. We've got a fine and interesting game. Asking for it to be fairer than it is, sounds pretty pointless to me."

yeah i agree... i don't see what's so darn unfair here? Maybe i'm missing something? Maybe i'm just not hard core enough? I like the pvp system i mean it's not like only the people who farmed for a billion hours to get the mega ultra weapons and armor win. ::shrug:: i think it's fine the way it is...