Where has the Strategy in a Good Fight Gone?

My first character is a Warrior/Elemental. I learned (like, I assume, most players), that you can't just rush into a fight and expect to emerge victorious every time. I did a lot of the first half of the game with henches and some guildie help, until I developed (what I think) was a pretty good strategy for my missions and quests, with "PATIENCE" being the key virtue. When I got to the Ring of Fire Missions, the Titan Quests, FOW, that patience was evident in all party members, especially when everyone needed to finish the missions (and especially in FOW, when farming is, depending on the group you're in, more important than the quests). These party members WERE NOT guild members; for the most part, they were PUGs; people who had tried to finish a mission or quest about 5-8 times, and learned that PATIENCE was the way to go to complete the mission.
My second character is a Monk/Mesmer. I've gotten him as far as the desert now (taking my time; I wanted to get all collector armor, and get as many skills as I can without buying them). Needless to say, this character is the opposite of my warrior (it took me some time to adjust to that, but it's a lot of fun). The problem I'm having is this: I have not completed a single mission with a PUG with my second character (I've had to do it with henches), because it seems that I can't get anyone to want to talk about a strategy, or allow teammates time to regen, or sometimes even agree on what direction to go on the map. They will kill the first 2-3 groups of monsters, ultimately run into a larger group than us, and simply get wiped out. I've got my healing/protection skills down pretty well, but when warriors are so far ahead of the group that they run off your map, and no one seems to find this a problem, that leaves me a bit amazed.
Where did the stragey in a good fight disappear to? Are there THAT many new people in the game, that no one knows that maybe planning how to finish a mission/quest is pretty important? or is there this big gap between those who've been playing this game last summer, versus those have just started playing the game?
And by the way, what's with everyone wanting to be "run" all over the map? Nobody wants to fight anymore?

after 1-2 chars the only point of doing any of kryta / maguuma jungle is if you uh... really like the missions?... Don't need to any of 'em to reach lvl 20, so it saves 4-9 hours of otherwise semi-wasted time.

Sounds like someone is opening a can of worms.

You'll find the majority of the playerbase seems to be only concerned with getting to level 20, Ascended to get UW/FoW open, and end-game PvP. Which is fine, more power to them, etc.

Unfortunately you get thrown into the midst of them when you attempt to play this game as *gaspshockawe* a game. Which means you either find like-minded players to quest/mission with, or get really used to using henchmen if you've as little patience for the ones that want to run through everything as I do.

My only legitimate gripe is how narrow-minded alot of these players tend to be. Two monks for every eight-man group, certain builds or primary professions for certain quests/missions/runs, etc. Total inability to think on their feet.

This goes hand in hand with your comment on strategy. Unfortunately IMO, Anet made the PvE aspect too easy to muscle through, and sheep generally seek the path of least resistance. Hence you'll find Warriors and Monks dominating the PUG scene, with the odd MM Necromancer thrown in. On rare occasion you'll witness an interrupt Ranger, Mesmer, or *ohnoes* non-Fire Elementalist. Too many professions/builds have been pigeon-holed into a certain role, and stepping beyond that role will all too often escape the mental grasp of these players. I still have people asking me what exactly a Geomancer or Bloodmancer does beyond Wards and Battery, respectively.

The irony is most every other online game I've played, the playerbase is bitching about a lack of content, a need for more content, etc. Here in Guild Wars it seems to be all about bypassing most of it. Just depends on what you want out of the game I guess.

My two rambling cents.

Agree! But... you forget the skill points from missions?

Last party I was in, I asked who would be our tank, since we had 2 warriors in our party, but when I finished typing the question, they were already dead. I just wanted to cast Life Barrier and mending on him. Maybe strategy is old fashioned
You can always join me. I am a patient person, and often I spend hours doing one single quest, or am I just exploring.

Thank you, Bleidd,
You're not rambling. I'm just really glad to see it's not just me.
I guess what really set me off was 2 things:
-when I got to Lion's Arch, and thought I had been transported to the world's largest online marketplace (i sat there for 45 minutes, just watching line after line scroll by with people trying to sell stuff. No requests for groups or missions. Just selling stuff).
-and you're so right about the lack of being able to "think on your feet." I've been in more than a few groups where, at the first sign of trouble in a fight, someone drops out. That has to be the weakest move I've ever seen someone make. You die, then you leave? And you want to blame everyone else for you dying? Unless I've taken henches, I haven't completed a mission with a full PUG with my second character....

For some reason the mission players now are just plain "insert insult"
I am finishing up my 6th pve char and its a mo/me and I just can't understand what some ppl are doing.

Now days it usually starts with
"enter THK"

5 minutes into it someone says we need to hurry I only have a few min b4 i have to go

ele runs forward taking agro and dies/amost dies. I ask "what are you doing". Reply, I am an earth ele I can tank. What defese do you have? I am using ward against foes...

The 2 warriors split and we ping correct path, other warriors reply "You guys go ahead I can handle these"....

warrior cast dolyak so he can't keep up with monsters running everywhere since caster agroed then took off running back to the monks so we can die

monk spams 12 energy left so ranger fires longbow and pulls next group

MM sacs himself to 1/3 life *moves toward front line* then dies in 2 hits and proceeds to spam wtf

ele casts fire storm which breaks agro and war with dolyak can't get it back
I hit heal with my last 5 nrg and run away only to rebirth and start again.

All of the above is true. The names and faces have changed to protect the innocent.

It sounds like a bad reality TV show, Toll Booth, and, unfortunately, you're more right than you possibly know. Where was the planning? And guess what? I'd rather the guy who had to leave, go ahead and leave; I'm not going to rush any mission because someone has to leave in 4-5 minutes. They should have thought about that before they joined a group....

I've met quite a few people who fall into the category of not knowing what strategy is. Makes me wish there was a "make smart" emote that would actually bolster the IQ of the other players who don't value teamwork or creativity, both of which are essential to strategy. Anyone here disagree? If so, talk to Robert E. Lee or Sun Tzu.

The only thing that puzzles me about this thread: you're claiming that it was ever any different? ROFLMAO...

Actually, GrandeWun, I think it was easier to find people who were willing to discuss and follow a strategy a few months ago than it is now. I'm not saying that to condemn everyone playing the game; it's just that I'm hardly coming across anyone who want's to talk about a strategy. The most I see is, "I know the way", or "It's easy". The next thing I know, the "leader" is lying in a smoking, charred heap surrounded by monsters, and they're typing, "WTF, WTF WTF"...

There should be some sort of penalty for dieing, like an exp loss, money loss, or a lvl loss
That will teach 'em

It is unfotunetly an inevitiability. every mmorpg has its hasty rushers. Powerlevelers and Runners. Unfortunetly, its 1000x less ethical in this game than it is in others. For example, chargeing for a Powerleveling in Finalfantasy 11 is like saying you rape cows. You will be instantly chastaised and never get a chance to power level on that server for a long time.

Make your own groups. Don't play with bad players.

I hadn't done a mission for a while, but I just did Abbadon's Mouth with the second PUG I tried it with.

Things didn't go perfectly, but that's not a big deal. On the whole they were solid.

Indeed, the biggest snafu is that I was separated from the group and left behind while the other seven went off to do the bonus.

It seems that every month and sometimes even every week we get threads about "oh man it was so much better back in the day." And also, threads about how so and so found an awesome group to do some quest with. Moral of the story: It's probably still about the same, you just got unlucky or lucky depending on which thread it is you're starting.

I have guild mates who refuse to do missions with pugs. But I have done every mission on all my characters with pugs or with guildies and apart from a few bad instances overall it works out fine for me.

The easiest way to control them is if you are the monk. You tell them that you are not going to chase them down to heal them and if they can't stay within a reasonable range they take matters into their own hands.

Most of the time they listen. You seem to have had a lot of bad run ins, but I would say my good experiences far outweigh the bad.

skill points through exp gain come so constantly and regularly you should never be dry of skill points [that is, if you don't go and do something stupid like buy random skills you'll never use]..

but I still go back and do those missions on some of my newer characters because I'm a perfectionist and seeing all of those pretty little locations all completed is kind of pleasant.

and my first post was just in response to the 'why do people want to get run everywhere' portion, not the rest of it..

Free skills from the jungle! Well, to be honoust I've rushed my Necro through ascention at lvl 15 when my guild was doing a tour du desert, then I got SS and after that I went back to continue allong the path I was on, somewhere arround Gates of Kryta. I was suprised how a lvl 20 necro had trouble finding a PUG in those missions (my warrior gets 12 blind invites upon entering one of these mission area's), so I henchies some of them and now I just wait untill a guildie comes allong that needs them.

Okay, I've never had a monk primary but I'm planning on making one when factions comes out (the closest thing I've got to a healer is my Me/Mo). Should I be worried about anything else like this?

Don't even joke about that because it takes me forever to get things done (and I'm willing to plan). I lost count of the times I've had to restart elbonia reach last weekend.

Kern, I think that there are two problem's you are facing. One is that you are a monk primary and outside of iway teams, you are playing the most in-demand class in the game. With the number of let's call them unstrategic players, you are in even more demand. This is also a problem because you can't be the one not agroing monsters back like you were when you were a W/E (like I was my first time through).

I think there was a recent thread about finding good groups and anything like that might be a good read. Your best bet to avoiding the wrong type of player is to do so before the mission starts.

Your other problem is luck.

As to point about things getting worse; well they aren't. There was a huge thread when I first joined the forums (around the time the game came out) about monks not getting respect and unstrategic players causing them woes. So it's been around.

It might sound weird but once in game recently, I had a person actually object to me for thanking a monk for healing. Can you believe that? I've had a bit of sympathy for monks ever since I read that thread I mentioned and that just seemed odd to me. Monks get the most random invites, they are the first to be blamed, they are most likely the ones who have to deal with the unstrategic players first, and all that.


BTW, I hate lion's arch too because of the trade spam. Couldn't buy anything there if I wanted to. Try to jump around districts and you might find a better one.


Bliedd, yours truely has a E/W, my primary magic skill right now is ice (I'll start adding a bit of air ASAP), and uses swords and tactics often... Watch Yourself is +20 armor that costs you no energy and can't be stripped and healing signet is often the best self healing I can use unless I decide to change my secondary to monk. So let's just say a few of us creative people are out there. But then again we might also be playing with our W/Mo's.


EDIT: maybe missions that require a little strategy early on might be an answer. I hate elbonia reach but if anything, it reminded me to be patient in missions if only because you have to be very careful to complete it.

I don't think it's the majority of the playerbase are strict farmers/pvp-only, but it IS the majority of posters here at GWG.

Yep. Absolutely true.

That's because they're really very inexperienced, IMO.

To me, it's because the players invented a new metagame. There is no grind in Guildwars, and all experienced MMORPG'ers know MMORPGs are all about grinding - so they invented grind. The new metagame in Guildwars, invented by experienced MMORPG'ers in imitation of other MMORPG's, is farming. Whoever has the most gold, the most perfect weapons, and the most expensive armor, wins.

So we now have the ironic situation that people on their first pass through the game get help to run/bypass most of the content, so they can start farming as soon as possible and get a shot at "winning" this invented metagame.

I've come to believe those of us who don't 'get' this new metagame, but insist on doing quests and missions even though we don't actually absolutely HAVE to in order to farm, are inexperienced MMORPG'ers. Probably with a background in pen-and-paper or at least single-player RPG's.

Agreed, and guilty as charged. I think I simply enjoyed MMORPGs more when the last three letters of the acronym were as important as the first three. The present batch and trend is just too dumbed down to hold my interest long.