Running and it's effects on the game

Ok, I'm basically quoting a post I found at MMORPG.com, but I think it's an incredibly valid argument, and I'd like to bring it over here for discusion. All I ask is that you don't flame me or others for our opinions.

Running is a huge economy in this game. You can get a run from anywhere to virtually anywhere if the price is right. You can even get ran through almost every mission in the game for a nominal fee. But, what are the effects in the long run? The effects are obvious for the first time players, they never get the experience they need to complete the game (not XP, but experience, the time spent using the character), but there's another effect that's starting to plague the game. If you've played through the game, then decide that you want another character to beat the game, and you decide that getting runs through the game will just help you along that path, this can be just as detrimental late in the game. There's a lot of things you can learn about your class combo when playing through that you wouldn't know about otherwise. Like, energy management is very different for all the classes, the way each class deals damage and how they fit in to the group is also very different. These are things you simply won't learn your first or maybe even your second time through.

Now, I'm not against all types of runs. If the person isn't going to be a twink, then the Drok's run is fine by me. And, I don't mind a taxi service so much, just getting from place to place. It's primarily the missions that have me bugged. These are the real test in the PvE realm (barring UW and FoW). If you don't spend enough time with your character, by playing through the game with said character, how are you going to addapt to tougher challenges later? How are you going to get that character past Abbadon's Mouth? Or even through the Titan quests? How much will you really add to any high level group?

Now, I'm not so biased as to believe that this applies to everyone. If you've played a Monk in PvP, and you've done it well, there's not much that you'll gain from PvE. And, I'm sure that there's a handful of players that can pick up any class combo and play it well, with or without practice. And I know that equipment doesn't effect the game so much in PvE (got up to the Ring of Fire with a healer using only a quest reward staff from Ascalon). But, one has to wonder, if you really want a character that's beaten the game, but you don't want to put forth the effort to actually beat the game yourself, what's the point of beating the game? Or even having that character?

Ok, I'm done with that. Please, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this as well. And, yeah, I'm well aware that this has been beaten into the ground. I just think that this is a new take on the matter.

I don't think that beating the game is ever the point in any game like this. Not really. When it comes down to it the point of the game is to get the shiniest prettiest toys and you can do that without having to beat the game or do any of the end game quests. Running I suppose is a symptom of that game dynamic. The PvE Plot in Guild Wars is pretty weak compared to other games. This has been pointed out time and time again. If the story isn't engaging I'm not going to bother playing through it when all I really want is to get my uber equipment and go kill things. Also the community is pretty helpful so the actual trial and error training that you get by playing through doesn't matter so much. Just go stand in ToA for awhile and ask about how to run various FoW and UW farming groups and you'll get tons of helpful advice right then and there without all the tedious trial and error associated with playing through the game. All in all running doesn't really hurt at all in my opinion as long as the individual is willing to pursue other avenues of learning and if anything I think that a stronger plot and better lore would help keep people from getting run all over the place. I mean you'll always have those people that will want to rush through and get the goodies but I know I for one would play completely through if the story was worth following.

TBH i think its dependant on the player, i played through as a ranger, then a mesmer, after playing those two classes, i had very very little to learn from playing monk, warrior, Ele & necro (two accounts) , IMO, energy management is pretty simple for any class


for a firstime player, i agree it is a sin to be run through


With the plentiful info avaible at a seconds reach via the internet, you can know the in's and outs of any one build/class in half an hour (and if you want to learn yourself- why are you getting run?)

First off, whether or not someone gets ran someplace has absolutely no impact on you, so why should you care? Seems like these forums are full of politicians playing GW, they want to control what everybody else does - lol.

Secondly, this isn't a NEW take on running, far from it. It's just plain common sense. If someone doesn't play their characters in a "normal" fashion they are going to miss out on a lot of content plus have a pretty good chance at being lousy when playing quests, missions, etc. Nevertheless, that's a personal choice on their part and really isn't anybody elses's business.

As for why, why is the sky blue or water wet? Who really cares why someone will buy a game and hack their way though it as quickly as possible then go on to something different? They just do.

To each their own - I couldn't care less how other people level up or move through the map...it has no effect on my game whatsoever.

If a significant amount of players dont know how to play theyre class, the later missions can be near impossible- unless you play guild teams/henches only, this affects everyone

Speak for your self I love the storyline, if you actually read dialoge boxes and went exploring and investigated the storyline you'd love it


I hate running because as more and more poeple get ran, it prevents people who don't like running from being able to get anywere in the game without hencies (I hate henchmen[THEY SUCK]) It wouldnt be so bad if it was just get ran around a hated mission but when you can skip from Beginning game ( North Shiverpeaks) to end game (South Shiverpeaks) thats pretty screwed up, and you should NEVER be able to run the Desert Quests as those are a test, I call them the ultimate test on how good you are as a player of that profession, no not the doppleganger thats your final exam, the missions from ascalon to sanctum cay are basicly School, learning your profession mastering everything, of course you got people who learn fast but they still can learn alot by going through the school year, and the desert is your final exams, once you pass them you get into the shiverpeaks thats like college... and the FoW, UW and PvP is your "jobs" so basicly getting ran to Droknars is like Skipping School, in which you get fined... which is failing at your profession mainly and being a "noob."

sorry for that odd ... description.

Personally I think most people who start the game will do all the missions and quest instead of getting runned everywhere.
1. Because they most likely had just like me in the 1st time no money at all 2 pay for these runs.
2. Find it probably challenging and all is new so quests and missions aren't boresome to do.

I played the game with 3 characters and did everything, on the last character I did get runned to droknar and warcamp. But still went back and did everything there is to do. It's rlly the choice of the person who is playing how he likes to play the game so if he would like to buy money on internet and get runned then that's his/her choice.

And offcourse ur point is right that they prob lack the skill to play decent at high level missions.
But that's just their own problem.

Imo it's cool to do everything for the 1st time and if u don't like 2 do it again and again then just get a run.

Well Tainek, if you PUG you're going to get a lot of grief, not just from those that lack experience from getting ran. And, if you PUG and get into poor groups, that's YOUR problem and has no overall effect on the game per se.

Rilder, the same goes for you. Players getting ran doesn't make PUG's any better or worse. There is absolutely no evidence that would suggest there would be more people in PUG's if there was less running. That you can't effectively use henchies is YOUR problem and has nothing to do with players getting ran.

Actually I like henchies, they have quick hands and can focus fire, if you call the target right. I can take short/long breaks with henchies, whenever I needed. If you have done with all the professions, I am sure that you can use those henchies properly.

I am against running due to it actually effecting the game due to people being run to places without learning how to play their character. GG you have the money to get run to Thunderhead and powerlevelled to 20 by a farmer. Doesn't make you any good.

However I cannot tell someone to play the way I want them to. I'd just prefer if they actually played well, regardless of how, as long as it's good. Like those goddamn smiting monks. "I CAN DO DAMAGE LOOK!" Yeah well you still don't belong in the front line with the warriors. Didn't you learn that in the Desert? Oh wait, no you got RUN through there. Don't freakin blame your healer if you keep dropping.

I refuse to get run anywhere or do runs for anyone myself and I refuse to openly pick a fight with runners and runnees, but for god sakes, if you're going to be run; at least learn the basics of how to play the setup you have before entering a team.

Why make a thread about absolutely nothing?

Well granted I'm sure some people love it however two dangerous assumptions there. First you assume I didn't read the dialogue and keep up with the story. I did the first time, well at least the first half after that it got weak but I'm a big reader of fantasy novels and I'm very particular about my plots. Second you assume that I would love it if I paid attention to it. Sorry not the case. Guild Wars is lacking in lore and plot compared to other comparable titles on the market today , and all the exploration and reading in the world won't reveal more than what is there and that is precious little.

This isn't opinion it's fact. The depth isn't there that you see in other games. It's like comparing Hero to the Kickboxer movies. Sure they are both martial arts flicks , but Hero has more depth and a more developed plot than any of the Kickboxer flicks. I think that that analogy is actually quite apt in this instance. Guild Wars is all about combat and finding new ways to destroy your enemies. That's its emphasis and you only have to look at the game and the developer interviews to see that. Now these aspects are present in other titles but the other titles offer a lot of plot and lore in addition to that. Then again these other titles don't offer as much in the way of PvP. It's a trade off.

Uh. If there's one thing GW boasts, it's some incredible lore. Granted, the storyline of Prophecies is a bit cliche, and leaves something to be desired, but I'm greatly impressed with the amount of lore they came up with and crammed into the game.

No, I can't I will never be able to use hencies and i won't ever try, take umm Aurora Glade (the one where you have to attune to Henge Portals before the enemy) For example, I dont see how the bloody hell you'd be able to do that with hencies Since every time i do it someone has to run while another waits at the crystal spawn to get the crystal in time to nab the other crystal while the other person runs back to nab the 3rd portal, and if you got a good group the last 4 can take out the mantles crystal runners, runners are ruining the game for PvErs. At least for me.

Wrong.

Ok so you're telling me that it has more lore than say Lineage 2? I don't think so. I won't go into NWN because they have the entire D&D world to draw from as opposed to drawing it from scratch. Hell even FFXI has more Lore than GW and the FF titles have never been huge on background. I haven't played WoW so I'm not so sure about that one but you'd think they would have a lot because of the all the lore associated with the series as a whole. I'll give you that it has a lot for the first entry of the series but still it's not as well layered as other titles out there. I'll also concede that quality of a plot and the lore of a game has a lot to do with personal preference. Like I said I'm a big reader of fantasy, particularly Michael MoorRED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO, so I have high expectations that are pretty difficult to meet. In the end I think the debate is more subjective than objective.


EDIT: Ok not a dirty word there just part of the guy's last name. Author of the Eternal champion series and all that and probably one of the most respected and innovative writers the fantasy genre has ever seen.

I don't want a character that's beaten the game, I want a character that's fully unlocked. I run my new character to and through the desert, ascend him, then go back and do all the skill quests. By that point I'm level 18 or so and can hench Dragon's Lair to get to droks and buy some decent armor. Then it's rush to Ember Light, capping any elites I need in southern shivers. A couple cap runs mixed with rushing missions in the fire islands, a few greens bought and I'm ready to start playing my character in PvP. The new character takes me 5-10 hours of play.

I didn't lose out on 20 hours of PvE content, I saved 20 hours of unlocking stuff in PvP. And now I get to do the fun stuff of the game.

Everyone knows the average PUG player sucks. Whether they've been run through the missions or they have cabbage for brains I can't tell. If you don't want to play with horrible players, play with guildies or henchies.
It's general consensus that if you're playing with henchies and they're sucking, then you're sucking. Yes they do dumb things and you need to learn how to control them. I don't understand complaining about henchies when you can do every mission and bonus with them alone.
In general it's a good idea to ask a few questions of any pick-up player. If you get the red warning lights that the guy is a retard then drop him (preferably in favor of Little Thom). There's plenty of people who have gotten through the entire game simply because they were able to get into good groups. There's not a mission in the game that you can't do with half the party size as long as you have good people playing.

I'd guess there's as many good players who've been run through places as there are stupid players who have PUG'd their way through.

My first character thru the game was mo/me and I did everything without running, but it was in the time before running really existed as a service. I've never really liked the story line for guildwars and that fact that the mouths don't move in the cut scenes does really help the situation. However, when I first ascended I did kinda feel special because I didn't have anyone to help me and it took me about 30 tries before I figured it out.

After completing the game twice, and running two other characters I have no desire to beat the game unless I need to cap a skill from a certain area. The only things that hold my interests now are FOW, UW, Farming, and Sorrows Furnace. Running is a necessary evil since alot of people don't want to repeat the story again, not everyone, but alot of people. I would compare the storyline to an attractive woman, you might think shes hot, but someone else is sick of screwing her.

I hate hencies for the simple fact that ingame I'm a very outgoing person, I, when theres nobody on in me guild and i'm just goofing around with my low-level mesmer I have no body to talk to and to chat about the game with, whats the point in playing a cooperative role playing game if your not gonna play with other players, I can't play with hencies I HAVE to play with other players and thats that, I've played this entire game with other players and i'm not gonna stop, but unfortunatly that means if I make any new chars i'm stuck at beacons perch forever.

The 'fantasy genre' tends to be rather pretentious, on the whole, but that's hardly different from every other genre, really. Moot point.

I suppose I should have clarified. In comparison to many other games that weren't just part of a series (hello FF and WoW), GW has an incredible amount of lore. I'm not sure why I had to specify that, though.

Fair enough there although one could also debate the FF and it's series lineage based solely on the fact that aside from X2 no FF game has ever had storyline elements that carried over from one iteration to the next. In essence they make up new lore and plot for each individual title. Still the WoW point stands and is conceded.

well anet has to change that u can't get any XP if a killed foe was 5 or more levels higher than your level (if your level is below 20).

Your first character its your choice, I HATE story line in every game. Cut scenes drive me crazy. If i had to make my first toon again I would have spent 20 bucks on ebay and got enough gold to have it run, but thats just me.

Usually after your first toon you know what you want your second to be and why i.e. 55 monk, ss necro, bp ranger, oro farmer. You just want that char to get to 20 and unlock the skills needed to play a particular build.

I have 600k in my invertory. I can join a group and risk failing the mission and probably take 30min even if we make it. Or i can spend 1k and get it run in 11 min. You would have to be dumb or really like the story line (same thing) to play through all the missions every time you made a toon.

Sort of like the old Diablo 2 Tweak they put in to keep people from power leveling by partying up with high level chars. Not a bad idea but it would only stop power leveling, not running. A good runner won't have to fight enough to justify that kind of nerf to the experience scale.

So your calling me a dumb for refusing to pay money to the plague that is running?

I have an alternate theory to why people do poorly late in the game: they suck.

I wonder how many of these terrible players actually played through the game and weren't run at all or only a small amount. PvE (especially while playing with other humans) is rather easy for most of the game. If you are never challenged you will never be forced to improve. Going through the desert will not make you a better player. Beating Elona's Reach, Ring of Fire, or THK with all hench will. The reason is you need to focus on formation with hench and learn to bring wide utility and play a solid balanced style of play that takes the whole field into account. If you know what you are doing you can control the hench with strong precision. They follow your commands well and the only deadly sin they have is standing in lava/murssaat towers for no reason at all. Sure this means you can't gank the PvE monk in the first ten seconds of the fight, but this is because you needed to command your hench to aggro the enemy W (like a real W should). However, after this point, it should flow like any PvE battle in the game, easy.

People in PvE play generally badly because they have myopic vision. They see the encounters as themselves performing X role and everything outside of that role is in the domain of everyone else. No party failed because of one bad party member (not even the Leeroy Jenkins Wammo). If they really are terrible you can just leave them dead. No mission is unbeatable with less then a full party and that should tell you something. Running doesn't cause missions to fail or PvP losses, bad play does.

I am saying the story line is blah. I hate seeing "7/8 want to skip this scene"
Its very inefficient and imo a waste of time to do all the missions every time you make a toon. In an hour at the troll cave using 3x exp scroll you can get way more xp than doing all those unnessasary missions.
Its like if someone told you how to cut 20 minutes off your drive home and you respond, no thanks I like setting in traffic.

Believe it or not, some people enjoy doing the PvE missions. Some people even enjoy the storyline. Stop trying to troll, you're horrible at it.

But in the higher end levels, it is a major contributer. Yes you will get some lucky idiots making it through the desert and thunderhead keep (read: idiot traps). Nowadays though, people get run through them at a very small and affordable fee. In the six months these people spent trying and failing these missions, surely they would have accumulated a rather hefty sum of gold. Sadly, didn't learn anything from failing either.

Not only what Kakumei said, but they may be there the 1st time and don't know the story. I highly suspect the reason it doesn't show who did not skip to safe guard them from being yelled at.

Anet made this game for a "traditional" path, and the "shortcut path" with the express purpose of unlocking (faction points for unlocks came latter) for PvP. Also when your on your 4th character... some missions are a pain to just do again (and not realted to difficulty either).

Now there are very good points on people who short cut w/o going through the game at least once and stated the effects of too much running, not enough human players.

i was going to write this long, drawn out discourse on my thoughts on running, but i think toll exemplifies it pretty well.

most people don't care about learning their characters well. why? because they don't need to. someone already came up with a cookie cutter build that they read on the forums, and they want to copy it. they know the skills they need and even have the strategies laid out for them already.

there is no thought involved anymore. and this is why i only travel with either guildies or hench these days.

i Dont play with PUGs unless im bored anymore- Got a nice full guild so it isnt my problem


And before i got into my Guild? yeah i had a couple of bad pugs, but most of them were pretty decent, you know what the only problem i every had with PUGs was? People who didnt know how to play theyre character, not asshats, not leavers, not anything but that one factor

At the end of the day, if a Warrior gets run through the entire game , and doesnt learn about say, playing a tank, then there is a problem later on (lets call this guy leyroy)


Group is formed for abbadons mouth for example, and Pug leader advertises for a Tank, leyroy thinks, "hey, i got a big sheild, and an axe, so i can tank!"

Leader asks upon joining, hey leyroy, tank?
To which leyroy says yes, he knows no better


2 mins into the game, the PUG is really struggling, the monks under huge pressure, then somebody points out

Leyroy is using frenzy!
Leyroy is using healing signet!


leyroy got run, he never learned Frenzy was a god-AWFUL skill for Pve


So you say, well then the leader should have checked!

so hang on, now we have to spend 2 mins pop quizzing each character of the party on theyre role, not everybody has hours to waste doing this every mission (more than a quater of an hour per group - and thats not including anyone who drops before it starts)

now if however, leyroy didnt get run, he would have learned all of this, and the leader could just say "tank?" get a yes, and get the heck on with it


And if you think that people getting bad pugs doesnt affect the game at large, then your just an idiot, average joe doesnt play in guilds, average joe's pay for this game, simple really, if bad pugs ruin it for Joe, then Joe wont buy the expansions, kthxbye Anet


Next.

I would definitely not consider running a plague...go to droks international district 1 or 2 and you will see a plague. You cannot label running ...its just that. I run people all the time...because that is the part of guild wars I enjoy. If you despise running so much (because it has this HUGE affect on you huh), call your local polotician/senator/the president or someone who can dispatch the navy seals to disperse of this terrible thing we call running.

I personally see being run as wasting in-game money in order to waste real money. I paid for all of the missions, I want to do all of the missions. I have never been run anywhere, ever, nor will I be.

But if others want to be run because they are after captures for PVP or whatever, let them be run. Doesn't hurt me any.

Different people enjoy different parts of the game. I have no problem with that. If someone wants to spend 40 hours doing all the missions and quests for 500xp and a 8-13 blue hammer, more power to them. But on the flip side if someone has fun getting run through the game, trying to tackle areas that are beyond their skill or experience, and dying a lot then more power to them too.
You need to understand that that is a decision you are making. If you don't want to be stuck at beacons forever, feel free to grab 5 henchies and make for Gates of Kryta.
It doesn't take 2 minutes do realize someone's got no clue. Even so if I was going to go with a full PUG, I'd rather spend 15 minutes making sure wasn't teaming with a group of fence posts than 30+ minutes failing a mission.
I think that's naive. If leyroy is a meat-head like a good many pick-up players I've played with he would have learned that he can agro whatever he wants, get killed quickly and be rebirthed when the party kills the mob that killed him.
If bad pugs are ruining the game for Joe then Joe's the idiot. Anyone who is going to let their experience be governed by the failures of random strangers needs to re-evaluate why and how they're playing the game in the first place.
Holy crap, a mature view point. I'd have to guess that after you've played through all the missions on 4 characters you might change your view on whether you want to be run, but even if you don't that's cool with me. Doesn't hurt me any.

Laziness is the death of Fun


... think about it.

Not only lazyness, also the people who give GW gold and items to beggars. Why would anybody buy a game, just to stand in town begging for money? At least the people who can afford to be ran, might have played to get the money.

I agree.

Shortcuts in games are symptoms of something either getting old, or repetetive, players would try to bypass the ordeal by creating clever ways around the "experience" (ie. running). I admit, I myself had a few runs too, skipped my cutscenes, and took shortcuts. In the long run, it is easy for the entire experience to become "boring". Players usually quit playing a game when that happens.

It's a self afflicted conundrum:

1.) going through the game more than once is a long and tedius task, it gets boring real quick.
2.) but getting run through it makes things way too easy, and that gets broing real quick too.

Getting uber weapons to fight monsters that you're just gonna run by them anyway, seems a bit hypocritical, but that is what's happening.. we cant really blame people for running especially for players whose already played it once or twice, but when taking shortcuts overcome efforts to play the game, and players come on to the boards to complain about the game being sooooo boring when they got ran through 3/4 of the whole thing anyway... It's even harder to blame the game.

Screw running, I want D2 Enigma armor for my warrior so I can teleport to droknars forge.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter if it's where you want to be, what you want to have, or how you want to look. If getting it becomes so easy... it quickly devalues the purpose of getting it in the first place. Being in Drognars Forge is less exciting, Having your gold fellblade is less meaningful, and looking good in FoW is less unique, the whole shortcut itself is mundane and players end up seeking another game to repeat the same cycle again...