My ultimate point is this: If you do not have at least 15E left by the time you use Entangling Asp, you are reducing Temple Strike's effectiveness. It becomes less of a threat when the opponent is given time to respond to you. That kind of violates what you yourself have said:
If the opponent is on the ground from Entangling Asp, how do they have time to respond to you? And see above regarding E-return.
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If you are using normal dagger attacks between attack skills to regain energy, this no longer applies.
You haven't played Assassin much at all, have you? Had you played Assassin at all, you wouldn't be saying that. In fact, judging by how you didn't know that Disrupting Stab was a Lead Attack in another thread--something that every Assassin would know by this point, keep in mind--I don't think you've played Assassin in the least, and certainly not enough to make any proper assessment of what they can do in combat.
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He had better "give a shit" about it. If he ever wants to repeat his combo, he will have to wait the full 20 seconds. In an attack skill chain, the longest recharging skill becomes the limiting factor. The skill simply isnt [sic] worth the slot.
You really need to play more Assassin. They have teleport skills for a reason. They have high mobility skills for a reason. Their purpose is to get in fast, unload their attacks, and get out. This build is getting in fast, killing a target, and then Returning out. It uses Entangling Asp as a KD, a snare (if the Cripple happens to get removed or not), and condition infliction. He doesn't have to give a shit at all about a 20-second recharge. Plus, considering Entangling Asp isn't critical to his build, he doesn't have to include it each and every combo chain anyway...but that certainly doesn't make Entangling a gimmick.
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"Extra condition infliction" is the very definition of a gimmick. If this skill slot was occupied by something else (say Critical Eye for instance), the whole build would become a lot more efficient and a lot more effective. And please dont [sic] be condescending, I never said the build wouldnt [sic] work, only that it wouldnt [sic] work as stated.
Remember that you've sacrificed many precious seconds without Daze to inflict this knockdown. My main gripe is that the skill has obviously been added for the sake of poison. To inflict as many conditions as possible, not to kill, but for the sake of having a build full of conditions. It ends up hurting the build, and should go.
When I continually re-iterate that Entangling Asp serves a dual function, both as a KD and an extra condition infliction...Asp hasn't "obviously been added for the sake of poison."
Don't try to play spin-doctor against a spin-doctor, fallot. I'm giving you fair warning.
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I'm sorry, the only thing I can say to that is pffft.
I'm sorry, but if you had a point here, it was lost in the condescending tone of your "rebuttal."
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And please dont [sic] be condescending,
Oh, the irony of such a request!
18 Apr 2006 at 08:20 - 27
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Originally Posted by Siren
You know the great thing? He can very easily regain enough E to sustain his chain, and Blood support from a Necro is a beautiful thing.
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Again with the sustain, again with the regain. He doesnt have enough max energy to use his chain, the end (bad rhyme not intended). Its not a "chain" if he doesnt use the attacks simultaneously.
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Originally Posted by Siren
You've got three attack skills (Black Mantis, Temple Strike, and Twisting Fangs) and if you use a normal auto-attack between Black Mantis and Entangling Asp, and then between Entangling and Temple Strike, how many times have you just attacked?
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IMO if you do that, you fail. Assassins are so prone to chain disruption that any duration you spend not chaining your skills is wasted time. I clearly mentioned this before. You want to get dazed off fast, and you want to cover it fast.
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Originally Posted by Siren
Plus, considering Entangling Asp isn't critical to his build, he doesn't have to include it each and every combo chain anyway...but that certainly doesn't make Entangling a gimmick.
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That is exactly what it does. Come now, you've almost agreed with me.
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Originally Posted by Siren
You haven't played Assassin much at all, have you? Had you played Assassin at all, you wouldn't be saying that. In fact, judging by how you didn't know that Disrupting Stab was a Lead Attack in another thread--something that every Assassin would know by this point, keep in mind--I don't think you've played Assassin in the least, and certainly not enough to make any proper assessment of what they can do in combat.
Is this flame bait ? How am I supposed to respond ? You picked an unfortunate error on my part from a different post and brought it up here to disprove my point ? At the very least this is off-topic. I can similarly say that your Blood support point is so ludicrous that it makes me doubt you've ever played Guild Wars, much less an Assassin.
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Originally Posted by Siren
When I continually re-iterate that Entangling Asp serves a dual function, both as a KD and an extra condition infliction...Asp hasn't "obviously been added for the sake of poison."
Are you being deliberately dense ? Why inflict an extra condition ? What is the point of occasional knockdown that recharges seperate from the rest of your attack skills ?
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Originally Posted by Siren
Don't try to play spin-doctor against a spin-doctor, fallot. I'm giving you fair warning.
I'm sorry if your ego makes you think this is some sort of a battle of wits. Its pointless for me to respond further, I've said everything that I have to.
18 Apr 2006 at 09:14 - 28
If you don't got for there prot monk however he'll use RC and bam all your conditons removed and hes healed to full health.And if you target prot monk he'll use guardian and if thats not good enough i can see prot monks taking COP for self removal.
18 Apr 2006 at 12:12 - 29
I fear that Draw Conditions and Mend Ailment will already be enough to counter condition spamming.
How much assassins with Temple Strike would you want to put in a GvG or HA team? At least 1 for the prot monk, another one for a me/mo or whatever using DC.
But even if you try to daze the utility character who uses Draw Conditions, he still will have good chances to cast DC without being disrupted.
GvG teams already use Draw Conditions because of their warriors.
This build seems to be for factions battles, but even there you'll finally meet enemies using martyr etc.
So, my post isn't strictly concerning this condition build, more the question
"is it worth to specialise on condition spamming on one sole character ore more?". I think no, people will adapt, and most of the conditions aren't worth "spamming".
18 Apr 2006 at 13:38 - 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by fallot
Again with the sustain, again with the regain. He doesnt have enough max energy to use his chain, the end (bad rhyme not intended). Its not a "chain" if he doesnt use the attacks simultaneously.
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Lead-->Off-Hand-->Dual Attack
That is a chain, regardless of any normal auto-attacks inserted in-between. And really, it's a bad idea for most Assassin builds to try to blow through their chain all at once, because...
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IMO if you do that, you fail. Assassins are so prone to chain disruption that any duration you spend not chaining your skills is wasted time. I clearly mentioned this before. You want to get dazed off fast, and you want to cover it fast.
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...establishing an attack rhythm is actually a better strategy than just blowing through all of your attacks at once, anyway. By slipping in a normal auto-attack, in addition to regaining some energy, you're testing their defenses (Prot Monks? ohnoes). If your normal attack hits, then chances are, your next chained attack will hit.
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That is exactly what it does. Come now, you've almost agreed with me.
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Almost agreed with you? No. I'm not calling Entangling Asp a gimmick skill. Because it's not a gimmick skill, especially in this build.
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Is this flame bait ? How am I supposed to respond? You picked an unfortunate error on my part from a different post and brought it up here to disprove my point ? At the very least this is off-topic. I can similarly say that your Blood support point is so ludicrous that it makes me doubt you've ever played Guild Wars, much less an Assassin.
Funny, that. I've been doing Necro Blood support longer than most here have even known about it. It's safe to say I was doing BiP at least a year before most people. And I've been playing Necro in general since the July BWEs of 2004. I know Necro Blood support, mate. And I know it can be done here.
And no, that wasn't flame-bait, but I do think it's a rather telling and revealing little tidbit, especially since we're talking about playing Assassins here. An experienced Assassin doesn't make the mistake of disregarding a build because they don't know the specifics of Disrupting Stab, just like an experienced Assassin doesn't make the mistake of disregarding a build and/or a skill because they don't know the specifics of Entangling Asp.
Keep going, please. This is way too easy for me.
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Are you being deliberately dense? Why inflict an extra condition? What is the point of occasional knockdown that recharges seperate from the rest of your attack skills?
No, I'm not being dense, because you're not making any actual points. lol. Think about this for a second. The Assassin is getting in there to kill his target through a combination of degen (it'll amount to 7 degen I believe), critical hits, and then a massive spike at the end from Impale+Twisting Fangs. The focused KD and extra degen work to that end. The KD helps keep them in place, and the extra degen, well, adds extra degen. This isn't a difficult concept to understand.
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I'm sorry if your ego makes you think this is some sort of a battle of wits. Its pointless for me to respond further, I've said everything that I have to.
Oh, no, I say that because you're trying to spin my points (deny it and I'll call you on it, by the way) in some inane and bizarre direction when there's really nothing in them to suggest your conclusions, and since I'm something of a spin-doctor myself, giving you fair warning is the proper thing to do before you decide to try to spin things any further. Or did you just want to continue to say I'm saying something when I'm really not saying it, then continue to get proven wrong? The choice is yours, so don't be a fool. lol
18 Apr 2006 at 18:04 - 31
Doing normal attacks during your chain just draws out the damage and conditions over time, giving the enemy monks plenty of opportunity to heal and remove. You've already stated that assassins are meant to get in, make a quick kill, and get out. How can they do that if they have to stand there auto-attacking to gain energy to finish their combo. Beyond that, unless you can afford to drop the condition attacks back-to-back, they won't be covered and will be removed quickly.
"Testing their defenses" before you begin the attack chain is fine, but if you stop the chain to see if the next attack will land by feeling them out with a normal attack, you are giving the enemy monks more reaction time to shutdown your spike, as fallot was saying.
Entangling Asp strikes me as unnecessary. It doesn't have synergy with any of the other skills, costs 10e which this build can't really afford, and is very situational considering it needs to follow a lead attack and has a 20sec recharge. The extra -4 degen on one target every 20sec is not going to win any battles.
As far as having BiP support, it's certainly possible but I don't think it wise to make a build that completely relies on non-standard support in order to be effective. I think this build is doable if the Asp was removed and replaced with something else.
18 Apr 2006 at 18:54 - 32
True, Effigy, swiping once with a normal attack in-between every other attack is risky, because the Monks have a chance to react, but consider what they'd be reacting with. Usually I see RoF. Occasionally it's Guardian. They may use Mend Ailment.
But what happens if they use RoF? If you plowed through the attack chain, your Twisting Fangs--the major spike damage here--may very well hit the RoF and it'll do minimal damage. Slipping in a normal attack before it minimizes the chances of Twisting hitting RoF, because the normal attack will trigger RoF, then you can unload the next attack chain skill.
And in fact...slipping in a normal attack every now and again is a really effective counter to the chain interruption. If they're screwing over your normal attack, that means they're not interrupting your attack chain, so given the interesting window of time when you can still link the chain together, that means you can go right ahead and hit them with Temple Strike or Twisting Fangs.
You've basically faked out their Monk, heh.
If Mend Ailment is used, it'll either remove the poison from Entangling Asp or the cripple, which isn't all that impressive, considering the conditions that are coming in less than 2 or 3 seconds. They could even Mend Ailment the Blind off (Temple Strike inflicts Daze and Blind). The heal received will only be multiplied by 3 conditions. That's 150 health, roughly. In the next two attacks, however, the target will have Bleeding, Deep Wound, and an extra 70-something damage when Twisting Fangs triggers Impale.
On a completely fresh character, Deep Wound will take around 100 health away.
This target, however, has been poisoned, been swiped at numerous times, probably isn't even at full health anymore, might already be running at a DP, and is about to be on the receiving end of a spike that can rival some Warriors.
Mend Ailment? I don't mind. That character is dead once I get to Twisting Fangs anyway.
Or Draw Conditions. Or Martyr. I'd love to see a character Draw Conditions. That would be fantastic. Go right ahead and do that. Martyr yourself to death. lol. Bleed, Deep Wound, Blind, Daze, possibly Poison, possibly Cripple? Yum!
As a brief footnote, we're not using Entangling Asp to win the entire battle. We're using it to assist in ending our target's existence.
19 Apr 2006 at 14:35 - 33
I can see what you're saying about the normal attacks. I suppose you're taking a chance either way though. If you slip some normal attacks into your chain, you're giving the opposition ample time to prot up your target. However, you might also use those attacks as a chaff for their RoF's. Kind of a toss up I guess.
If you were going to throw an extra condition in, I'd say the best time to add it would be after Twisting Fangs as a cover for the DW. Adding poison before the Temple/Twisting combo won't cover anything important and will just give more of a healing bonus to Mend/Draw if it's used on the target. KD is always good, but you should have plenty of disruption from Dazed, and the target will already be crippled (hopefully) so they won't be kiting you anyway. Entangling Asp is a fine skill, but I think this build has better uses for a skill slot and 10e.
Martyr/Draw is a serious threat to this build and should not be underestimated. It's highly likely that the person using Martyr or Draw will also have Purge Conditions. Of course every build has a counter so that's not to say this character isn't viable, but it may be wise to have some contingency plan for dealing with this type of enemy. For instance, you might consider replacing Entangling Asp with Death's Charge. In the event that your primary target gets hit with Draw/Martyr, you could Charge to the person who now has the conditions and start hammering on them instead. Since they will be Dazed, you may be able to interrupt their Purge/Mend by attacking before they can get it off. Something to think about anyway.
Of course, if the enemy team is bringing both Martyr and Restore Condition, it pretty much checkmate for this build. The likelihood of that happening isn't great, but it may become more common depending on how many people start running these condition-stacking builds.
19 Apr 2006 at 15:00 - 34
nice build, played similar in preview, that and this build have same skill that imo still need tweaks...teh temple strike, there been many conversations conserning this skill, but anyone who played with it knows its power...its godly
19 Apr 2006 at 18:43 - 35
Yep, Effigy. It's a toss-up. But in order to choose the most effective course of action, risk assessment is an absolute necessity. The question I usually ask myself is "which attack rhythm will benefit me the most?" Sometimes unloading all of your attacks is the best rhythm. You'd usually use that in the Fangs of Melandru pre-built, when you're picking off strays.
But other times, it's a better strategic decision to stagger your attack chain. It will play with the opposing Prot Monk's timing if you mix up your attacks. Sometimes use two normals in-between the Lead and Off-Hand, then go right into the Dual Attack after that, etc. I've noticed a lot of the PvP game is just mind-games, and the staggered, almost random attack pattern/rhythm of such a strategy is a means to that end.
The disruption from Daze will be effective, absolutely. But we won't Daze until we use our Lead Attack. Which means that Cripple from Black Mantis may have been removed. Then we lose the snare.
We could always sub-in Bull's Strike for Entangling Asp (depending on the secondary for this build, obviously), because the target would probably be running, but I'd much prefer to have a Cripple covered by Poison. Not to mention I'd rather have a guaranteed KD than a conditional KD.
Of course, if you really wanted to get evil with condition infliction, you could go Bull's Strike in place of Entangling Asp, then fit Falling Spider somewhere in the skill bar. Provided the target is moving after Twisting Fangs, hit them with Bull's Strike, then follow-up with Falling Spider for extra damage and poison infliction. Let's see how that'd look:
The original:
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16 Dagger Mastery
10 Critical Strike
11 Deadly Arts
Black Mantis Thrust
Entangling Asp
Temple Strike {E}
Twisting Fangs
Expose Defenses
Return
Expunge Enchantments
Plague Touch
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A few revisions:
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16 Dagger Mastery
10 Critical Strike
11 Deadly Arts
Black Mantis Thrust
Bull's Strike
Temple Strike {E}
Twisting Fangs
Falling Spider
Return
Expose Defenses
Impale
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Either build will work.
Regarding Martyr/Restore Condition and such...let's take that to the next logical step. If a Mo/X or X/Mo needs to use their Elite slot to counter a single build, is that testament to the build being meh, or is that testament to the build being devastating? A Monk character forgoing their Elite--an Elite slot that normally could be Word of Healing, or Mark of Protection, etc--for condition removal.
That sounds like a pretty mean (almost unfair) trade-off, doesn't it? A few conditions requiring an Elite condition removal?
Death's Charge is a no-go. Unless the recharge has been changed from what I remember it to be, 45 seconds is just awful. Even 30 seconds is pretty bad.
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In the event that your primary target gets hit with Draw/Martyr, you could Charge to the person who now has the conditions and start hammering on them instead. Since they will be Dazed, you may be able to interrupt their Purge/Mend by attacking before they can get it off. Something to think about anyway.
Finally someone else picks up on that strategy. XD. One of the main reasons why condition removal doesn't scare me...I'm going to have an entire team behind me, all focusing on pressuring their own respective targets, hex/cond removal Monks included.
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Of course, if the enemy team is bringing both Martyr and Restore Condition, it pretty much checkmate for this build.
Then the opposing team just used two Elite slots out of eight to counter the condition infliction of one or two Assassins. ~_^
19 Apr 2006 at 18:56 - 36
Good points all around. I know I started thinking "condition stacker" the second I read the descriptions for Temple Strike and Twisting Fangs. However, there are a lot of "buts" to consider, given how easy conditions are to remove and gimmick-potential of stacking. Executed properly, a build like this could be very powerful.
The more I think about it, Restore Condition is probably the single greatest threat to this character's efficiency. Martyr is useful for widespread conditions (traps, etc) and Draw can be countered by switching targets quickly, but Restore has the potential to really shutdown this character's offense be immediately removing all the conditions and outhealing the damage to a large extent, not to mention being spammable. I suppose the only viable option is to take out whoever's carrying RC as fast as possible.
The only major concern for me with this build is emanagement, given the rather taxing nature of the skills being used. It's more manageable with Entangling Asp removed, but energy will likely still be somewhat of a problem.
19 Apr 2006 at 20:09 - 37
The nice thing about condition builds like this is that they are very powerful. I've run variations of these types of builds in the past and have made them devastating. Like most builds, success with such a design is largely dependent upon how you play it.
Take, for example, RC. Yep, RC can castrate this build. But once you spot the Monk using RC...that Monk will die. And spotting him or her will only take a minute, especially when you've got a team working together and communicating with each other. That reminds me of a very relevant anecdote.
Just recently I was doing a GvG with my guild. It was a balanced build, I was running Me/Mo for Resurrect (never needed it) and Remove Hex, with Migraine/Phantom Pain/Shatter Delusions. We had two primary Monks for healing, prot, and hex removal, as well. The opposing Mesmer I was targeting cast Spirit of Failure. We only had one Warrior in-range for that spell. My hex removal cut him off mid-sentence: "I've got--oh, okay, nevermind."
It's that type of battlefield observation/management that castrates the opposition's counters, no matter if it's Spirit of Failure or Restore Condition.
It's the same battlefield philosophy that enables me to interrupt almost anything I want to. Tab/Shift+Tab is something people need to master, because it's invaluable.
It's all about how you play your build. I can think of only a few builds that will never, ever work, no matter how skilled the player may be, or how well they play their build. An Ele stacking his or her skill bar with Exhaustion-inducing spells, for example. Dumb idea. Bringing Well of Power into PvP. Dumb idea. Using Flurry in PvP. Dumb idea for the most part.
Because I play intelligently, it's one of the main reasons why I don't care about higher energy costs than normal, especially when I know how amazing energy management can be with certain professions. When people scream bloody murder after seeing higher energy costs--especially if it's an Assassin build--it just demonstrates to me they don't know the profession, and they don't know how to play the build intelligently.
21 Apr 2006 at 14:08 - 38
Love the arguments, back to back, and then the near flame-wars, but there seems to be something that everyone who tries to sound smart seem to forget...
There's a counter to EVERYTHING!!!
I'm fully aware of this, but if I were to live this game thinking [oh noes! this can be countered by that! gotta try something else! oh wait, that's counterable too!] a dur!!! I'll never make a build and neither will any of you people...
Everything is counterable, I know this full well, but I can counter you using cooperative teammates... In the end, it's how good your team works together, not if you can counter everything [for the record, if you CAN counter everything, you can't DO anything...  ]
Restore Condition? Draw Condtion? Well, I'm not by myself, good luck doing it while my teammates barrage your ass. [I attack off-targets with this build. If one monk is under focus fire, I'm on the other monk like white on Rice, or their mesmer]
Since the idea is to keep a caster [or warrior if he's all that's left] out of the game, unloading everything in the bar is ONLY good if you come under fire, [any fire actually]. If the enemy team is focusing on keeping one of their members from dropping like a fly [cause your teammates jumped his/her arse], then you have the distraction you need to get in there and wail away...
Entangling Asp, from what I've read [actually skimmed, I'm at work right now lol] some people don't like this skill. It was when I got paraded with this skill in pvp do I realize how awesomely sexy this skill is.
KD? Yeah, escape my TS after I send you on your back. With Expose Defenses, uh, you're not doing anything to dodge me...  Teammate will save you with remove hex? If my team is doing their job properly, there is no hex removal in the world that'll save your hide...
Once Dazed lands... I bury it with Twisting Fangs, normal attacking in between hits is a GOOD thing with this build if you can afford the time to do it. [aka your enemy thinks there are other things on your team worth worrying about...] If your foes ignore you [like they do warriors, heh heh], you'll kill your target, I can almost guaruntee it. If it's a monk, they're NOT going to heal themselves, at all... CoP you say? Last I checked, you need enchantments to make it worth anything... Expunge owns [or a teammate with Rend... ack*]
I'm glad we've got flak flying in here, Sins can kill using their dazed [which is unconditional unlike the weak crap that is Skull crack *which has a better name sadly*]
I love what I'm reading, your analysis saves me lots of time and to build a very 'true' sin in every sense of the word is my goal...
Death by dazed blinded bleeding poisonous deep wound? I've seen people die with less...
28 Apr 2006 at 17:26 - 39
Ok, possible final build after doing my checking: only one sup stat rune outside vigor...
12+1+3 Dagger Mastery
8+1 Critical Attacks
10+1 Deadly Arts
Black Mantis Thrust
Entangling Asp
Temple Strike {E}
Twisting Fangs
Return [always target the nearest monk ^_^]
Expose Defenses
Expunge Enchantments [if they don't have Contemplation of Purity, Siphon Speed or Impale, YOWCH]
Plague Touch / Res Sig [if monk doesn't suck ^_^]
Ok, we now have our offensive tank requirements.
Damage Skills: @ 16 daggers, we've got some long lasting conditions & LOTS of double hits/critical hits. Expunge+Expose means with little help, you will deal with your foe's defense. If your foe is bringing both an enchant/stance to save himself, you CAN save energy by just using Expose Defenses and bring in something like Siphon Speed instead of Expunge. The Expunge is to stop those pesky CoP cowards ^_^ You most likely will NOT need to use both Ex-techniques at once. So that's your damage covered.
Containment: You have your hexes, Return for escape, and BMT, yep, nobody's escaping/catching you without help...
Survival: Plague Touch/Res Sig to help either yourself or your team and Return helps you live to fight another minute...
27 Jan 2007 at 02:13 - 40
that leaves 5 attribute points wat should i use that for?
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. Although, theres no healing skills
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