Quote about Guilds

My friend made a good talk about Guilds in Guild Wars. I thought I'd share it with all of you.

Um, I didn't find that either insightful or particularly accurate. He's basically saying "yeah, guilds that compete can hypothetically fall apart because of it and can hypothetically contain bad or stupid players". Guess what, that goes just as well if not better with "bad" guilds and guilds with no aspirations. Usually moreso.

You hear of a top 100 guild falling apart when it happens, how often do you hear or care about the dozens of crappy ones that do the same every day? If anything, competition has some quality control that ensures that people either need to be reasonable or good enough to make up for their faults.

It sounds like someone is applying his hatred for random players in Temple of Ages, who might not even be part of a guild, to all guilds in general.

...and you and your friend must be piss bored to have diiscussions like this in-game.

In all honesty, Anet should seriously have someone monitoring ToA D1 AM when America doesn't have the favor of the gods. The things that get said, along with the "xxx is a scammer"... ugh, very annoying.

On a scale of 1 to 10, I'd have to give this essay...a rambling

Rambling(-50)<----|-|-|-|-|-0-1-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-10->

I'd rather eat the #1 burrito than sit around reading an essay on why the burrito strives to be #1.

When I was young I played rugby and joined a city youth team. We sucked and we had fun. Later, someone talked the local "pro" team to teach us and mentor us (no true pro teams in US but too long to explain). We practiced hard and learned more and more about the game. Soon we found ourselves competitive and with time found that as we reached higher levels of competition our understanding of a "good match" changed. Details mattered and our enjoyment of competition increased until we found ourselves in a championship. We took third, but I don't curse missing #1, I look back and remember a lot of good times.

I have found guildwars as of late to have this same progression. I joined a random scrub guild in RA and we would often play with hench and bring whatever. After a while we took to trying to learn and understand the game at a higher level. Since then we have gotten better and better and our enjoyment has increased as well. We know we aren't Evil, but the better our opponents got the more challenging the game became and the more I wanted to play. This seems like a healthy progression and I can imagine that either the guild will keep getting better to the limits of the potential of the members, or we will out grow what we are doing and move to higher levels of competition. We peaked at rank 400 this season and could beat teams around rank 200 but not touch those in the top 50. Does this mean we should quit GW?

Long buildup, but my point is simple. People like competitive play. The enjoyment of overcoming strife is a pleasure that is difficult to match. There are lots of jerks with a rank and an attitude who only value success. They guild hop and trash talk, but they aren't there to compete. Look at the PvP moderators from Fnld or the often insightful posts by Ensign (along with many others on this site and others). Are they providing free wisdom because that makes them winners or immortals? I have a guess, they want competition to continue and for new and weak player to rise up and continue to make this game about overcoming. I can't imagine they enjoy smashing random first time players in CA, but I bet they all have a match they lost that they remember very favorably. Only one team can be #1, but the enjoyment brought from working towards that goal can bring pleasure to more then the 8 people on the championship team. If you want to know what makes guilds at the top have drama or breeds racism in ToA then look to the immaturity of the people, not a broken system of organization or competition.

Agreed, this summary is all opinion. Those bashing Europe, Japan etc saying " dang those people blah blah blah". Those are just people I would say kids but I seen older people bash at the other powers. They do it to rattle up America, to express there aggrivation. You know what I say to them STOP COMPLANING AND GO TO HOH AND WIN FAVOR.

But some elistists are total douches.

According to the OP's original categories of guilds, I guess ours would be "elitist" because we strive to be a competitive PvP force. But that doesn't mean we hate on our guild members or on other guilds. And, that doesn't mean that we want to be the "#1 burrito". We just want to play and do well, I don't think that's a bad attitude.

I think the OP got soured by a lot of bad PvP guilds, and I'm sorry to see that. However, I think grouping competitive PvP guilds, who want to be high-ranked, into this category is pretty silly. There are friendly PvP guilds out there, I swear!

Also, sometimes ppl are just kiddin around when they bash the other countries when they have favor. I doubt there are many ppl that actually base their hatred for other ppl upon what time of the day it is.

Hmm...

I think the post is honest.

I think people's responses to the contrary are denials of the truth... guilt?

The sad things is, and I have expressed this opinion before, is that there is no way for the non-top 100 guilds to receive recognition... yet it is the lower guilds that ACTUALLY make the game what it is and keep ANet alive and kicking.

For PvP there should be three divisions -- everyone would start in the bottom division... after your record gets to a certain point in Div III you would move up to Div II and so on... This would allow for the more relaxed fun players to compete and "win" there category.

For PvE there should be a way, and factions looks to provide it, for guilds to achieve recognition. Your best PvP guilds typically are not the best PvE guilds.

My guild is probably a strong contender for best PvE, but would be no better than Div III at PvP... and that is the way we like it.

I don't see what the big deal is about being the top whatever guild. Ooooh nifty capes. I think anyone that gets into the game with the driving purpose of being number 1 is taking it a little too seriously. I used to be like that. I used to worry about being rich and having all the best stuff but all it did was stress me in the end. The game got to be no fun because I was constantly wigging out about this that or the other. I think the only goal in this game should be to enjoy the game no matter what that means to you. I don't need any special recognition to make the experience complete for me. I just want to play.

EDIT: Also I don't think anyone is really serious when they "bash" the other regions in ToA. I know I'll pop in see Europe with favor and say something like" Dammit Europe give someone else a chance" But I'm not seriously piseed at Europe.

GG?










Damn character limit making me elaborate: Some people enjoy the game by competing with others and winning.

uh, ya, I'll take the #1 supreme burrito with curly fries and a coke please.

"I think" (my opinion) it is the typical case of I want what I can't have. You want to be the number one guild, but again how likely is that, is it going to happen for everyone? Are you willing to deal with or even join one your so called "elitist Top Guilds" to be number one (which I have no problem with, they strive to be the best and if they have fun then I'm all for it). Are you willing to deal with the pressures and time required to be number one?

I know for me the answer is no, I would not enjoy the game as much if I had the pressure of being number one. It would become more like a job, and become a have to play and not a want to play. This is just me and how I feel, to each their own. Do what you like, why waste time complaining, posting in hopes that people will jump on your bandwagon to accomplish what?

So people who strive to be the best are immediately elitists.

rgr

Guilds are what people make of them, much like Guild Wars is played in different ways by everyone. Not everyone does PVE; not everyone likes PVP; some people want to just farm; some people just farm 1 spot over and over and over...
Same thing applies to guilds. You can't really condemn elitist guilds, no matter how bad you think they may be, because the people in them are getting what they want out of the game (I should say, I'm NOT in an elitist guild). Like-minded people join these guilds; that doesn't make them all bad people; they just enjoy the game in a different way than you do.
I recently started playing the pvp stuff; for me, Guild Wars has started taking on a different feel than when I'm doing pve stuff. I've met people whose sole purpose for plang Guild Wars is the PVP, and GVG stuff. And yes, some of them may belong to those elitist guilds, but the existence of those guilds won't change how I enjoy the game, or make me feel that I need to challenge how they play the game.
To each his own.....

What I would like to know is what is the best way to attract new members into your guild despite the name of it?This is of course without them leaving which has happened more than not.I usually go somewhere in game and contemplate the future of my guild.What I really get out of this is Guild Wars shouldn't be a game where guilds battle it out amougst each other it should be about guild going out and having fun.When it comes to other games there is no meaning of Rank.

We've actually done a lot of growing recently. We aren't the type to stand in town and spam for members though. We usually find players we like to play with and who are good at what they do and we just invite them in. I find that selective recruitment is better than mass recruiting. Quality over quantity.

Or maybe the responses to the contrary simply reflect that the argument has no merit? I've been in guilds that hardly ever touched PvP and I've been in very PvP-heavy ones. I loved both, though obviously for different reasons. I'm the kind of guy who will give free junk away, give that random noob asking in local how to do something a tip or spend time showing people farming spots or what build to run. I enjoy helping people, but eventually it does get a bit tiring; you just want to play for a change which means that, for better or worse, your peers need to be at your own level of competition. That doesn't mean I or most competitive players look down on anyone, bicker excessively or are more prone to prickish behavior - quite the opposite, I find; there is usually some kind of standard that players have to meet if everyone's going to be playing together most of the time they're on.

No offense, but that is not the case at all. If a guild plays PvP in a half-assed manner, lacks cohesion and has a generally low level of skill, what do they bring to the game that's worth acknowledging? Their dedication to wasting people's time with henchway or something? PUGs bring far more to the table, and that's saying something. A competitive PvP guild will grow a reputation by mastering the nuances of the game if they are dedicated enough, top 100 or not. Such a guild is therefor a team, one among many that make an impact on the level of competition, play and sportsmanship around the world. When a guild has a rep, it's usually because they deserve one. You can't just say "we deserve recognition" if you aren't doing anything to earn it.

The only problem is that everyone and their grandma will return to smurfing again. I don't see why anyone needs a pat on the back for being "best of the 3rd best" when they can just as easily say "We're top 300", give themselves a pat on the back and realize they're happy for getting as far as they did. If they hit a wall in terms of what they are able to learn, why should anyone look up to them as being anything more than mediocre or marginally good?

I don't know what you mean by "best" PvE guild, but I can tell you right now that a decent PvP guild will find PvE ridiculously easy. It's basically like playing a predictable, retarded build that you can, by definition, anticipate and counter WAY ahead of time; you don't need to account for every single possibility, you just find a weakness and exploit it to ridiculous lengths.

Again, no offense intended, but if you're looking to gain e-rep with the new PvP/PvE blend content, most PvE guilds still won't come off any better than a "Div III", as you put it, group. If PvE guilds end up owning outposts, it will be through nothing but grind or disinterest on the competitive ones' part.

First off: I'm just shocked. Use of paragraphs. A statement. Arguments to defend the statement. It's a post worth reading!

Without joking now, time to give the post a reply that it deserves.
technically: every guild that has a seperare name is a guild. Or a smurf, but that's another story. As for what's behind it, that's up to the goals of the guild.

finding the right guild is a two way street. Make sure you take the time to find out if the guild you want to join is also right for you, and not just if you are right for the guild. That should stop a lot of guildhopping in GW...

Agreed, a lot of guilds dissolve because they don't reach their goals. But I don't think ANYONE should judge a guild for its goals. It's the choice of the guild and its members to have those goals. Who are you to judge them to have these goals? Are you worried about their feelings as you state those get hurt? Honorable, but that's their own responsibility.

Not everyone enjoys the same things a game. Lack of trying to understand your fellow gamer is the primarary reason things go sour in guilds often. Some are competitive ('spikes'), some enjoy PvE and farming loads of monsters at the same time (often 'timmy') and some enjoy making crazy builds ('johnny'). The clash is often inevitiable. As a 'johnny' wants to try out a new build, a 'spike' wants to hold to a succesfull build because he gets enjoyment out of winning. It's not an easy task to create room within in a guild for various types of players. That's why top pvp guilds tend to be small in size and focussed on 'spikes', so they can take the team that gives them the biggest chance at winning (and the least amount of players on the bench).

I don't think guilds that do what they like are 'dumb'. Nor do I know any sensible player that has said so. Not everyone can be no.1, so playing the game with realistic goals is much more enjoyable. If anything, I'd call the guilds that focus on being no.1, but never ever will be sooner silly then a guild with realistic goals. Ambition is one thing, unrealistic is another.

Yes, that hate towards other continents in ToA is mindboggling. I truely wonder if those that shout such things have an iQ higher then their shoesize.

being on the top of the ladder doesn't automaticly mean they are 'nice', and in that perspective a great guild. It means that they are good at pvp, and are great in that perspective. however they can be 'nice'. Just like guilds that are terrible at pvp.

nice one. sig worthy.
"You can push a man, but sooner or later he's gonna push back" ~ Max Payne

peace,

Makk.

GW is a competative game. If you don't like elitest you never have to enter the competetive world.

Quoted for truth ... and at work we call this a "Room Temperature iQ"

Huh? Well not sure how you can be the person who wrote both of those... but I guess... um... No, I am confused.

As for your assertions... I have watched decent PvP guilds get totally wiped in missions. I guess you don't understand why people like the game w/o PvP.

I understand both.

I guess you don't follow any sports at the high school, college, or professional levels. If you did you would understand the concept. Let me break it down for you...

• Div I = Professionals (similar to Major League Baseball, National Football League). In GW terms this would be people who play, play and play. They play no (or few) other games and devote all their time to PvP. They enjoy the competition.
• Div II = Semi-Pro(Arean Football). In GW terms these would be people who play no (or few) other games, but real life distractions does not allow them to play as often as the people above. The don't lack skill, the lack the time to practice and test.
• Div II = Amateurs (Thursday Softball Leagues). In GW terms these people either have less understanding of the game (skill), play several other games, or have too many real life distractions to develop their skills.

My point with this structure is to allow people in all three groups to play and enjoy the game. This in turn keeps more people interested and paying $$$ to Anet for new campaigns. The Division I people get all the championships and extra crap, but the others don't get discouraged by not being able to compete. Regardless of your feelings -- THAT helps the game and community.

As far as your comment about smurfing... um... NO you could not be more wrong. Why would a good team smurf as a Div III or II team... they would NEVER be able to play other good teams because they are not in the same division... there would be NO benefit to smurfing. Div I teams could have "minor" teams in the Div II or Div III that would help them develop new players though.

That will certainly be their excuse now won't it.

CLUE: not all reps are earned through PvP play.

Sorry... when people say that they know they are being offensive... and you were. I may have come off a bit harsh on PvP, but I truly think the game could be improved.

Could have fooled me.

I prefer the term twelve o' clock flashers.

I like burritos. Burritos are good. And cheesy. Which restaraunt makes the "top burrito"? It sounds like it would be a very tasty burrito.

Mmmmm.... burritos.

It was my impression that you were defining a "good" PvE guild in a different manner than how I define them. My statements were independent.

They are completely different critters so, as I've said, I can enjoy PvE. When I play one or the other I tend to do so exclusively, so it's not like I'm getting a quick 'fix' then going back. The simple fact of the matter is that PvE is simple compared to any PvP of consequence. I'm not sure what 'decent' guilds you saw get wiped out, but whatever.

I understand the concept of divisons, you should understand why they don't work on the videogame level. With NO standards to meet or ANY form of quality control, every division will be so mixed up you might as well not have them. A great deal of these PvP-mediocre groups are like having a 100 person sports team, 60% of them playing at the juniors level, 15% at the pro and 25% with amateur-level skill, then randomly combining them and hoping that the end result will make any consistent sense. Newsflash: it won't. And this is not including the deliberate sabotage of the division system via the aforementioned smurfing.

rofl, it's pretty obvious you rarely if ever played GvG prior to the smurfing nerf. A lot of teams don't give a crap about playing an opponent who has a fair shot at beating them, and if you were active prior to that nerf you would know that. There were TONS of smurf guilds from every conceivable team at the r1000-2000 level just for the sake of abusing some newbie groups (and, obviously, easy faction.) If you introduce divisions you will simply be providing incentive for smurfing to make a resurgence. At the end of the day, you'll just see the same guild in first place in EVERY division, just under different names. That's the nature of the internet.

By your own admission PvE players aren't in the same class as avid PvPers in terms of PvP. I don't see why you're taking an obvious chain of logic and making it into some kind of insult to get offended about.

Indeed, and you're calling ME on contradicting myself? Stop trying to read insults into my statements or you'll just run yourself into corners trying to defend yourself against some imaginary argument I care little about.

Wow, you have issues with reading a statement and declaring that it was intended to mean the opposite. Don't be afraid to take things at face value once in a while

Um, okay? I don't care how other people spend their time and I don't care what you do with your guild. I certainly don't know you or your gang well enough (i.e. at all) to look down on you.

Celios:

I have seen no credible evidence from you that a division format would not work and until I do I will assume it your own opinion. I think it can be done with GW... I have seen it done with FPS games and believe it could carry over.

Beyond that if you meant no insult that is fine.

I apparently did not explain what I see a PvE guild as... PvE players are not in the same class as PvP players for PvP... nor are PvP players in PvE players class for PvE.

I will try to take you at face value from now on... If you want to continue the discussion then please bring facts to the table... I will try to do the same. As I have said above I have seen leagues work in FPS games... I will look to see if the league is still working.

Maybe I seemed a bit too enthusiastic there, apologies if you took offense.

I suppose my point is that GW is a completely different critter from an FPS game with an external league system (I'm assuming you mean something like TWL or CAL.) The latter enforce against smurfing (banning offenders) while GW, for all intents and purposes, is a sandbox. I don't know how much GvG you played during the period I was referring to, but I can tell you that smurfing was a very real problem - ANET even had to step in finally and nerf faction to curtail the practise. All that was just for unlocks. If people see a chance to get to the top of a league, or better yet, nab some prizes, I can guarantee you we'd see it on an epidemic scale again.