Sundering; The Facts

Senator Tom

Senator Tom

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Join Date: Aug 2005

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Sundering - Effects on damage on different armor

Attacks done with a max damage, no +damage mod axe at 12 axe mastery.
With Sundering = 10% Sundering = 10 Strength = 10% Sundering
Without Sundering = 0 Strength

60 armor;
48 - critical hit without sundering
53 - critical hit with sundering
damage increase - ~10%

80 armor;
34 - critical hit without sundering
39 - critical hit with sundering
damage increase - ~15%

100 armor;
24 - critical hit without sundering
28 - critical hit with sundering
damage increase - ~17%

------------------------------------

Tests done on a 100 armor target

#1
in ten hits, the damage done was as follows
16, 15, 7, 15, 7, 6, 8, 9, 9, 24
total damage - 116

low - 6
high - 24 (critical)
average - 11.6

now if a Sundering (+10% chance 10%) Axe was used instead of a non-sundering:

say the sundering was on the low.
6*.17=1.02
so it would have hit for ~7 damage instead of 6, increasing the average by .1 (damge of 116 raised to 117, average of 11.6 raised to 11.7)

say the sundering was on the high.
24*.17=4.08
so it would have hit for ~28 damage instead of 24, increasing the average by .4 (116 to 120, 11.6 to 12)

say there were two sundering hits, one on the high and one on the low.
+5.1 damage (4.08+1.02), increasing the average by .5 (116 to 121, 11.6 to 12.1)

more trials to come, more trials on different armors to come
enjoy!

Murder In China

Murder In China

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Wouldn't a Candy Cane Axe provide more consistant damage?

Senator Tom

Senator Tom

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murder In China
Wouldn't a Candy Cane Axe provide more consistant damage? does it always hit for the same amount?

Rey Lentless

Rey Lentless

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

If you want a damage mod, use a vampiric.

Murder In China

Murder In China

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Join Date: Sep 2005

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Senator Tom
does it always hit for the same amount? 10-10 Slashing Damage (No requirement needed.)

Rustjive

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2006

It breaks down fairly easily. Sundering on first glance does 1% more damage on average, and after calculations it's actually about 1.9%. A vamp mod for swords and axes does +3 damage per hit. The only way that +1.9% damage would be greater than +3 damage is if you did 158+ damage for that hit, every hit.

Good luck with that.

Edit: http://www.fender.net/sunderingsucks.htm

Lateralus

Lateralus

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Oct 2005

W/Mo

The fact is, sundering is not worth getting when it's max chance is 1 out of 10. Sell it to rich noobs.

Senator Tom

Senator Tom

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustjive
It breaks down fairly easily. Sundering on first glance does 1% more damage on average, and after calculations it's actually about 1.9%. A vamp mod for swords and axes does +3 damage per hit. The only way that +1.9% damage would be greater than +3 damage is if you did 158+ damage for that hit, every hit.

Good luck with that.

Edit: http://www.fender.net/sunderingsucks.htm vampiric does more extra damage than a 10/10 sundering no doubt about it

LightningHell

LightningHell

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Join Date: Aug 2005

Hong Kong

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Mo/

A Vampiric 1:1 would be better than a Sundering, goddamnit.

LightningHell

LightningHell

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murder In China
10-10 Slashing Damage (No requirement needed.) Of course, there's still the Armor Penetration - Weapon Mastery argument thingy.

Blitzy

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2006

Destiny Forsaken

Mo/W

Erm, considering there's a 1 in 10 chance of the sundering actually coming into play, and you are testing over 10 hits whilst adding 2 (2 in 10 chance...) sundering hits for your calculations....isn't there a flaw here? +2.55 dmg over 10 shots perhaps? (on average, of course, sometimes 4.08, sometimes 1.02, usually in the middle).

2.55Dmg over 10 shots = poor. Not sure as I've only had a skim over it....ze boss is approaching. Nice read anyway.

LightningHell

LightningHell

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitzy
Erm, considering there's a 1 in 10 chance of the sundering actually coming into play, and you are testing over 10 hits whilst adding 2 (2 in 10 chance...) sundering hits for your calculations....isn't there a flaw here? +2.55 dmg over 10 shots perhaps? (on average, of course, sometimes 4.08, sometimes 1.02, usually in the middle).

2.55Dmg over 10 shots = poor. Not sure as I've only had a skim over it....ze boss is approaching. Nice read anyway. Which is why even the worst Vampiric mod can outdamage it.

Murder In China

Murder In China

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Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
Of course, there's still the Armor Penetration - Weapon Mastery argument thingy. If you use an attack skill.

Plus he didn't even place any points in Axe Mastery nor Strength. So there shouldn't be any armor penetration except when Sundering occurs.

The Real Roy Keane

The Real Roy Keane

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jan 2006

Dublin, Ireland

z0mg stFu n00bs i uSe sUndaRng on mi cRistaline swrod and it pwns.

Fungus Amongus

Fungus Amongus

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare] | [Rare] Alliance

Compare sundering vs vampiric with no fewer than 100 hits per single test. 10 hits is far from enough to draw conclusions on a 10% chance mod. Get back to us if you have the patience to test it. I tested Bone Minions' damage over 100 hits for 2 rounds....then I gave up.

Valerius

Valerius

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2005

Canada

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thock
I have no idea why it is such a popular and expensive mod. most just look for the bigger number imo... 10 is larger then 5 or 3 so it must be better right? also the fact that so many players don't know how to weild vamp weapons (don't like the degen... so they use mending or w/e... or they don't like to switch weapons out of battle...)

same goes with fort imo... they see 30 bigger then 5 and that's why fort is like 20x more expensive... even tho the two are pretty similar

icemonkey

icemonkey

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2005

30 health is way better, +5 armro is only good for warriors solo'ing pve

Kais Unduli

Kais Unduli

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Sep 2005

Room V

Having the extra health is better when dealing with conditions/degen. Why do you think people are still selling Victo's Bulwark at a high price?

Senator Tom

Senator Tom

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California

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fungus Amongus
Compare sundering vs vampiric with no fewer than 100 hits per single test. 10 hits is far from enough to draw conclusions on a 10% chance mod. Get back to us if you have the patience to test it. I tested Bone Minions' damage over 100 hits for 2 rounds....then I gave up.
Quote: Originally Posted by Senator Tom more trials to come didnt have much time last night
and also, this thread is about sundering, not sundering vs vampiric

Quote:
Originally Posted by Murder In China
Plus he didn't even place any points in Axe Mastery nor Strength. i had 12 in axe mastery, and would put 10 into strength when i wanted to see the damage with a 10% sundering

Da Cebuano

Da Cebuano

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Join Date: May 2005

Virginia born in Cebu

Jelly Toast[jT]

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Yeah but sundering is rare! people buy sundering and make me rich ^^

Haggard

Haggard

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

Urmston, Manchester, UK

Greener Pastures [DVDF]

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Senator Tom
i had 12 in axe mastery, and would put 10 into strength when i wanted to see the damage with a 10% sundering Strength only affects attack SKILLs, not average swiping. Unless you like, used a pure + dmg only skill, then subtracted the + dmg on the description.

OrangeArrow

Flame Bait

Join Date: Mar 2005

Mass

Mo/Me

There are so many flaws in logic and math in your post I don't even know where to begin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senator Tom
With Sundering = 10% Sundering = 10 Strength = 10% Sundering
This statement isnt true since strength only factors in when your using skills but I guess it would be true if you were using wildblow to test your criticals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Senator Tom
Sundering - Effects on damage on different armor
60 armor;
48 - critical hit without sundering
53 - critical hit with sundering
damage increase - ~10%

80 armor;
34 - critical hit without sundering
39 - critical hit with sundering
damage increase - ~15%

100 armor;
24 - critical hit without sundering
28 - critical hit with sundering
damage increase - ~17%
If you wanted to compare these numbers you need to factor in the 10% chance of sundering which when factored increases your normal damage by .4-.5 or about 1-1.66% depending on which armor you are attacking.
Quote:
------------------------------------

Tests done on a 100 armor target

#1
in ten hits, the damage done was as follows
16, 15, 7, 15, 7, 6, 8, 9, 9, 24
total damage - 116

low - 6
high - 24 (critical)
average - 11.6

now if a Sundering (+10% chance 10%) Axe was used instead of a non-sundering:

say the sundering was on the low.
6*.17=1.02
so it would have hit for ~7 damage instead of 6, increasing the average by .1 (damge of 116 raised to 117, average of 11.6 raised to 11.7)

say the sundering was on the high.
24*.17=4.08
so it would have hit for ~28 damage instead of 24, increasing the average by .4 (116 to 120, 11.6 to 12)

say there were two sundering hits, one on the high and one on the low.
+5.1 damage (4.08+1.02), increasing the average by .5 (116 to 121, 11.6 to 12.1)

more trials to come, more trials on different armors to come
enjoy! Your assumption that sundering is 17% extra damage is flawed since it is based on a critical hit calculation and is not valid when applied to non critcal hits. There is too much rounding in all these numbers for it to be accurate. I think your numbers are about right area but off enough for it to matter. 10% armor penetration on an 100 armor target should be about 19%.

Well I guess if you were trying to be fair and impartial you would of shown the sundering bonus on the avg and not just the Max and Min also your last statement is basically assuming you have an 20% chance sundering and not 10% chance.

Your numbers are akin to saying I have a 1/1000 chance of winning a Million dollars therefore I am a Millionaire.

Senator Tom

Senator Tom

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Join Date: Aug 2005

California

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24 was a critical hit (wild blow) with no points in Strength. 28 was a critical hit with 10 points into Strength.

i used wild blow, which is an attack skill haggard.