My idea to fix AoE, and re-energize AoE skills, and PvE in general

Personally, i am straight pissed with ANet for nerfing AoE, by doing that they wiped out an entire stran of skills, and stripped them of nearly all their usefulness. I was particularlly angry that Smiting prayers, ontop of the already cruddy skills, got further. . . um . . . cruddier? So i thought about a solution.

This is the current grid for Balthazars Aura (just for an example)

For 10 seconds, foes adjacent to target ally take 10...22 holy damage each second.

Smiting Level: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
Damage: 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

I would like to see it become something like this:

For 20 seconds, foes adjacent to target ally take 10...22 holy damage, the damage triggers every 5...2 seconds.

Smiting Level: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
Damage: 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22
Triggers: 6 5 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 2

I would like to see this format adopted for EVERY AoE SPELL, this means the skills will actually be useful outside PvP and for scattering enemies while running, and will not be as effective as triggering every second, but this means THE AoE SKILLS CAN STILL BE USED, AND CAN STILL BE EFFECTIVE in PvE play, it will not kill enemies as easily as it did pre-nerf and if someone REALLY wants to sit there for twice as long, they can, but its just a waste of time. It pains me to see so many skills devoted to AoE (they even duplicated/added some more in Factions) that go wasted in PvE play.

Your thoughts?

SS will stay incredibly more powerful and popular, not solving a whole lot.

Well they can do what they will with SS, come on, do you really think they'll let SS STAY this powerful? And i never said anyhting about SS, it's not considered an AoE spell, im only focusing on those tha are considered AoE

/signed AOE FOR LIFE

Thank you

Maybe only the pulse time should be variable, and the damage should be set (and high). With your numbers, balth aura with 8 in smiting does 17 damage every 3 seconds. It makes the lower stat ranges disproportionately weak.

The idea itself is interesting though, and varying the 'pulse' on a skill would make for some interesting possibilities.

Well chances are you wont use those skills unless you invest 9-12 points into smiting, for example im still tryin to come up with a fully viable PvE smiter, and Symbol of wrath/Balthazars aura are useless to me

I'm not certain what you want here. By increasing trigger times are you hoping Anet will re-adopt the old AI system that had mobs stand in place (which has the side effect of reducing spike potential of the spell since it does less damage in a short period of time), or do you feel that by increasing the time of the spell, more of the actual AoE damage will be distributed through its spell effect?

If the former, then no. multiple AoE spells can still be spammed atop one another and the game would be too easy.

If the later, a contitional sign, since AoE does need some help and increased AoE time is one way of rebuffing spells that have been seriously nerfed by Anet.

The only problem i see with this is the hot foot issue in PvP. Increasing spell duration--even at a lose of damage per second--can be abused by pvP groups to create a 20 second trap hitting every 2 seconds; changing PvP dynamic by making certain areas less accessable for a longer period of time. How do you plan to balance that issue?

I care not for PvP, so i really didnt take that into account, i guess they could make AoE spells have a sort of well/ward animation, and they could theoretically add a "Remove -----" spell that removes them, thats getting a little fancy, but thats just what i came up with while reading your response

As for the multiple AoE spells, it's simple, only allow 1 AoE spell to be active at one time, if the were to use a well/ward type animation the rule would just be, as long as a ---- is active, another ---- cannot be cast withing it;s i dunno, aggro circle, there are ways around the problems, ultimately ALL i want to see, is for ANet to restore the usefulness of AoE spells in the PvE world, and this triggering time is what i thought would be the best solution

And to answer your first question, what i wanted t achieve was to yes resotre the old AI, but they wont be standing there for the duration of the spell so it doesnt do more dmg (unless your soloing) because chances are they will die before the spell has a chance to fully run through it lasting time. I never intended it to do more dmg, its actually the same as it was previously when it triggers every 2 seconds, when it triggers 3+ it does less damage

I dont know how much more effective this AoE shift could be.
Ive always thought that damage over time AoEs should recast quickly. That way if your not doing damage (because people will scatter) your controlling a space.
Where as, instant AoEs should cast quickly. That way you can take advantage of group of clumped up people before they move from the area.

I'm not making any strong examples, but lets say ...chaos storm and firestorm. 10 seconds duration 30 seconds recharge. Foe gets hit for 2 seconds and then moves out of the way, try again 30 seconds later.
With 10 seconds duration and 10 seconds recharge then you can keep your foes on the move with these skills.
Or a skill like Rodgorts Invocation. 3 seconds cast 15 second recharge. The recharge is real good. If the size of the AoE was increased to Energy Surge then a 2 second cast would make this skill damn lethal. Or simply, a 1 second cast so those moments of oppertunity can pay off.

As far as AoEs sucking againts mobs... mobs spread during an AoE just like people do. Mobs should adapt more human behaviors imo, like not attacking through SS when grouped up or without a healer covering him.
If they are smarter then all skills can be readjusted to be useful in PvP while not abusive in PvE and visa versa.

This would make all of AoE worse than it already is...

So of course I disagree...

I dont think AoE spells should be reduced to area controlling spells like your sort of suggesting, theres a reason they do damage, if you want to control an area go take a look back to Diablo II they had item mods with "blah blah blah % chance to make monster flee" im sure they could add a sort of ward for making enemies scatter, but it shouldnt be an AoE's job to scatter them

I agree that AI should be more human, somewhat, but you cant make them too smart, or going through PvE will be just like going through PvP, long and hard, i dont want to spend 3 minutes killing a mob of 8 enemies, when there are hundreds more that have to die, if the experience they gave, quality/quantity of items dropped both rose, then i;d be fine, but ultimately if you make the enemies too hard and too smart, then you'll be getting significantly less items and experience, and the game will move like sludge and nobody will get very far.

How so? Please delve

I never played Diablo 2 so I cant go back.
All DotAoEs are area control as to how they are reacted towards. This seems realistic because if they arent scattering players they're killing players. I think my suggestion would make them better at both.

We both agree that AI should be more human. How human is up for debate. Id say, depending on the mob, the smartest ones are human enough to..
-Know if its killing itself and act accordingly
-If its not being effective against its target to switch to another one
-Mitigate the damage of threating foes.
-Pressure the defensive support.

And then there can be stupid mobs that stand in AoEs and other mobs that are as smart as everything inbetween being really smart or really dumb.

Ok, then no. AoE AI response was implemented to prevent overfarming. They aren't going back.

EDIT: and i wasn't suggesting they would become Area controllers. I'm telling you what 20 seconds of damage in AoE will become. Thats a set and forget nuke trap.

I don't see how that would make it any more useful as it would still trigger the AoE running but would do less damage (ie make them useless in both PvE and PvP)

I was thinking an increased duration would be nice alternative buff, but like Minus said, it is a set and forget nuke.
By increasing its recharge instead you get almost the same effect except it takes more time and energy to keep the nuke going and its easier to disrupt. On the plus side, its sustainable and more moble.

I think you bring up a good point Toxic. Most DoT AoEs are unattractive in PvE as well as PvP. The reasons are the same, it takes a lot of additional effort to make them work because nothing is going to stand it if it doesnt have too. How can it be reworked? Well, at least we are giving out ideas.

Well, the obvious buff is the one thats been suggested the most: reduce recharge times so that you can use AoE more often. Their own mana costs make them inhibitivly cost ineffective to spam, but its still good if you can improve their use by improving the number of times you can use them. when you see a good AoE situation, you should be able to exploit it, making AoE spells (if not as effective) near the level of meteor in usefulness.

10x10 = 100

10 x (20/6) = 30

You just made a spell that did 100 damage at 0 smiting do 30....having the monsters flee and go back in would have been more effective...

Sorry, when i was talking about area control i wasnt referring to your post

I like the idea and feel the AoE and AI needs some work. I've said this before in reference to the AI "acting like a player" might. Currently, the AI AoE fix enables the "juggling" of foes. A ranger/ele with zero fire magic can cast Lava Font when he/she gets aggro and the mobs flee from him/her. The spell does nearly no damage at all, but the AI is too dumb to know this. A real player would see the laughable damage of 0-3 and stay swiping at the ranger. - just an example here.

The AI needs to be able to tell when it's in danger and needs to be able to opt to stay or run. Certain mobs could also be given a personality whereas they stay within a fight (AoE or melee for that matter) till they are low on health and then flee. Doing this would give more uses for the cripple/snare line of skills and add some personality to different kinds of mobs. Currently, desert minotaurs act the same way as Shiverpeak Dwarves, only their skills and graphics are different.

Improving the AI in this way (I think at least) would give AoE and other skills some much needed boost without changing anything else.

I agree with Toxic though, AoE is nearly completely uselss other than a "juggle" like spell in PvE in it's current state.

Sadly this game has to be balanced for PvP.

I'd rather they kept the AI as is, and kept the spells doing damage per second, but simply buffed them hugely. Like maybe double the damage. Make them good enough that the possible combos with knockdowns and slowdowns are actually worth the trouble.

Toxic, for people who think SS is not considered an AOE spell, I have this thread on another branch of these forums.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3002863

Only issue i see with time being increased for AoE is that, its a waste. AoE doesn't need *some* help, it needs Hell lotta help, and ANET tends to ignore this issue (assuming since faction preview).
When a foe doesn't stand in an AoE area for even 10 seconds, what is the point of increasing the AoE time at first place?
Correct me if i have gotten your point wrong.
I am not sure how PVP areas work, but i hope word "Spiking" rings a bell. Work arround those to make them less powerful, and AoE will become powerful in same process.
The major use of AoE spells was usualy by elementals, which got badly nerfed since the AI update. Other professions need to be jacked a bit. Nearly every profession in pvp tends to kill an elemental faster than vise versa.
Hence why, eles are being used for *Heal Party* spam, or Wards at most. Havn't seen a better usage yet since the nerf.

Check the link i pasted above, has huge information with the arguments presented.


Uh, when a massive degen can stack, and can be spread through mesmers and necros, whats the issue with multiple aoe spells? their cast time, energy consumptions, and recharge time balances them. Oh, forgot to mention Exhaustion for *eles*. Specially since other professions have been given skills to make exhaustion even worst by spirits and mesmer spell.
I doubt that ANET intends to go back to Old AI system at first place.


@Goonter
A way to balance the skills mentioned could definetly be lesser cast time and recharge time. Mind you, not just the Area controlling. Nukers were never created to *control certain areas* and not *kill the foes in area*.
The SS affect that you mentioned, makes whole lot of sense too, been yelling the same thing in different posts. if a foe can take MoP into consideration and scatter, why not SS? SS is the only reason which basically nerfed Ele usage at first place since the nerf. If the AI nerf still exists, but SS scatters too, people will start taking eles into consideration for farming related areas. As for the Rangers with Barrage pet group, Anet needs to work arround Barrage. The skill *is* over powered. I would like to be corrected if someone thinks its not. Any build, which depends on one skill, is over powered in general. Eles never depended on 1 simple skill, but multiple skills being casted 1 after another. Unlike SS, and arcane echo, which are just 2 skills of 8, and leave the rest of the 6 skills free for usage. Barrage, i do not see much of a difference. I have explained in thread link listed above.

@In general
I will put a small idea here which i was discussing with my guild a day back
I will start with a question to you guys though. Why does a fireball scatters a foe? The damage has been done, it is not being repeated over time, and caster is not casting it right away. Just like FoC ( feast of corruption, necro curse elite ) Rodgorts invocation, Metor ( Not MS ), phoenix ( be that close range like inferno or long range like fireball ) I repeat, the damage is *Done* it is not happening over time. Even then, why do these skills scatter the foes? The burning damage also scatters foe, even when it is not being spread by touching the foe that is being burnt (unless used the mesmer elite to spread the condition to foes arround)
But then, Think over this, A spell like Metor shower has its own drawbacks when used, if a foe flies away right after first hit, which is about 3 seconds from the time it *has* been casted, Mind you, ignoring the cast time it self, which makes it total of 6 seconds before the first damage even trigers, caster can easily be interupted, exhaustion, mana consumption, etc etc.

I do not recall my self properly, but, i may have noticed couple of necro spells which actualy use mana when they have been *casted* and not when you actualy click the skill. This method can be applied to all other professions too, and not just eles.
for example, the ele elite spell, Elemental Attunement could be redone this way:

Currently, it reads
For 45 seconds, you are attuned to air, fire, water, and earth. You gain 50% of the Energy cost of the Spell each time you use magic associated with any of these elements.

Fixture:
For 45 seconds, you are attuned to air, fire, water, and earth. You gain 50% of the Energy cost of the Spell each time you have attempted to cast the magic associated with any of these elements.

What it does is, i have clicked Rodgorts Invocation, and the moment i clicked, 25 mana is gone, but if Ele attune was On, i get 12 mana back right away, and the spell continues to cast. Now if this spell is interupted, it wont hurt an ele that bad.
This will help an ele, even when interupted by a ranger or mesmer, or necro even, to have some energy left (be that 50% of the actual mana requirement), unlike metor shower spending 25 mana, 60 recharge, exhaustion included being wasted on a spell which was not even casted.
Let the Attribute specific attunements do what they do, give mana back only when the spell has been casted.
Over all, there are quite many ways to deal with an issue, than just nerfing the shit out of spells and, not just spells in this case, a whole attribute line, a profession. If ANET has issues while coming up with the ideas to deal with a problem like solo farming, discuss with beta testers, and players on forums.
Until Eles can be used to dishout the damage affectively in presence of other professions like other professions do, the game will remain unbalance, and unfavourable for elementalists.
Reason i am not including smiting spells here, is because it is the least used type of attribute in pvp, and in groups.
I will end my post here for now, already too long.

Regardz
An Elementalist.

Oh man, thats alot to reply to, i ned to stretch my fingers

I know how you feel my friend :/

hence, my second last line in last post.

heh

Regardz
An Elementalist.