isnt R/W more useful than investing points in BM purely for TF?

gordongraydon

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Apr 2006

topic (mainly for PvE)

basically my question is as a ranger since you will be investing in skill lines like marks (16) expertise (9+) wilderness survival (6+)

wouldnt it make more sense to go R/W and use frenzy instead of investing in a whole other attribute like just for TF

sure frenzy makes you take double damage but as a ranger you are on the back lines anyways and u always have TU to back you up

frenzy also requires no attribute points invested into warrior line and rangers are self sufficient already so wouldnt it be smart to just go R/W and not invest in BM PURELY for tigers fury?

plz enlighten me

ehanks

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jul 2005

The main reason (as I see it) is to avoid the double damage taken in Frenzy. Sure you're in the back lines, so you won't be a main target, but having a constant frenzy up as a ranger can still be very bad. A shatter enchant does over 200 damage to you. Empathy does 60 dmg each time you attack. A single axe warrior attacking you can do nearly 200 dmg in one attack while you are in Frenzy. You won't always be a target...but Frenzy is risky to use if even one monster is targeting you.

Thanks to expertise, it's not too hard to make a build that lets you keep TF up 9/10 of the time and still have energy to spam bow attacks.

Frenzy is a fine option if you're very careful when you use it...but TF is more popular because it will never be a liability to you. You can use it without worrying. Frenzy requires less energy/att points, but will occasionally put you in dire straits.

Valerius

Valerius

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2005

Canada

R/

well this is for PvE right? Frenzy would be fine for a Ranger in PvE

definately not for PvP tho... besides all you need is 4 in BM to make TF effective

Francis Demeules

Francis Demeules

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2006

Canada, Qc

[Holy]

Me/Mo

TF last enough longer if we compare Frenzy and Flurry.

SnipiousMax

SnipiousMax

Perfectly Elocuted

Join Date: Sep 2005

What other skills are you planning on using? TF/Frenzy/Flurry might not fit into the build you have in mind. For example, Barrage does NOT benefit from using TF.

Also, I thought I'd point out that you shouldn't take everything said in the Warrior's Forum (about your W/R vs R/W post) to be the absolute undisputed truth. I'm posting this here, not there to avoid an arguement. But it is entirely possible to run a R/W melee. R/W Hammer warriors were once used even in higher level GvG because of damage output. They've fallen by the wayside in the meta game lately, because the playstyle of GvG is stuck in a rut, and it calls for a very specific build to compete. But don't be afraid to try out a Melee Ranger because someone thinks its a bad idea.

Back on topic. 4 points in BM is worth the unconditional IAS of Tiger's Fury. It is much better than Frenzy/Flurry, and I would use it if at all possible.

remmeh

remmeh

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2005

Apathy Inc [AI]

R/Mo

R/W hammer is hella fun if you've got a good monk (RA/TA)

12 hammer
10+4 BM
8+1 expertise

irresistable blow
hammer bash
crushing blow
ferocious strike
tiger's fury
charm animal
comfort animal
rez signet

11sec unconditional IAS with 10sec recharge
also... you don't really have any non-attack skills that you use, so TF doesn't disable anything important you might need.

i don't think TF disables ferocious strike either.

also i laugh when i have a solo spiker build in RA/TA and see a R/W use frenzy because he's going to take 200+ dmg from dual+punishing...

Iskrah

Iskrah

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2006

SsS

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by SnipiousMax
For example, Barrage does NOT benefit from using TF. Of course it DOES. It speeds up the movement of your character, not of your arrow.
The waiting for Barrage, the 1sec recharge, is obviously during the arrow travel, which means that if your arrow takes 0.75 sec (for example, with a longbow) or 0.5 (with a composite), you will still have to wait 1 second before activating your Barrage (note that you have to wait just a very little bit after hitting too). An arrow-speedbuffer still makes sense because of the gain in accuracy and whatever +x dmg you're causing. It is to be considered (and some even think about using Serpent's Quickness for the recharge...). To break the animation does not cause any slowing down problem, as it has been documented on this forum and as you can check yourself in-game.
Now when you fire a Barrage with TF on, you still have to go through the whole firing motion. Let's take the example of the Longbow again. The motion takes 2.4sec. With TF on, it will take you 1.6sec, which is a great gain. With a Short or a Flat, you'll go from 2.0 to 1.33. Etc.

In the end, you will not exactly win 33% damage-wise contrary to Warriors (because of the recharge/arrow-fly time that is to be added), but still, TF is helping considerably.

There is a very common misconception that Barrage is best with a Horn Bow (the slowest bow overall -2.7/0.75- but with 10% AP). It's completely wrong. Nothing beats a Short Bow damage-wise, ceteris paribus. You can go run the test on the PVP island with barrels as many times as you wish. Or just go play Tombs/UW² and compare your speed with your pals. Self-satisfaction guaranteed with a Graygore's Short Bow.
Of course there is the range inconvenient of the Short Bow. But switching is there for that.

Let me add that IMO, the fact that this is so little known makes rangers underrated because of improper use.

Anyway, back to topic.
Tiger's Fury makes you attack 33% faster, which is around 33% more dmg for the time it's activated (let's say that just for example and clarity; I don't want to make the math too crazy). Same for Frenzy. But with Frenzy, as said before, makes you lose +50% hp when hit. So it comes down to +33%dmg/-50%hp. Which is why good warriors only use Frenzy on particular situations, and then stop it with using Sprint. It seems pretty hard to do with a Ranger, if not for the possibility of using Whirling Defense, or another stance... But i don't see how a Barrage Ranger build could be optimal with 2 stances (prefer Throw Dirt).
I really recommend, like Snipious, to put 3 points in BM (+1 from minor rune). It lets you max out 2 other attribute lines, or another good combo. Except I add that it IS useful with the skill my avatar.

Anyway, up to you. Have fun experimenting and conceiving, it's the best part of the game.

SnipiousMax

SnipiousMax

Perfectly Elocuted

Join Date: Sep 2005

<Edit (going to test before I stick my foot in my mouth)>

SnoopJeDi

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Nov 2005

Saved By My Pinchers of Peril

R/N

I don't really like frenzy myself, because my AL is already low enough as a ranger primary. However, you can pack flurry as a stance to make your preparations way more effective (you're doing less damage, but attacking faster. That alone basically levels out, but the stance doesn't affect the prep damage, so you're actually doing more than average damage, faster).

Choking Gas + Flurry with a short bow is wonderful.

[edit]Not to mention, TF disables your non-attack skills. Depending on your build, this might be good or bad. If you need throw dirt, but you just activated TF, you're out of luck. The same for renewing preparations, unguent, etc.