As I have said... the traditional build works. It works fine. But it's not on par with the capabilities of a slimmed team, and running redundancies is a mistake when you don't have to and can do better.
I beg to differ experience and skill of the team from the build they run.
Is guild team with voice comm > pug? - yes.
Is 3 man build with no heavy protection and nukes > 5 man build? - ya, in your dreams maybe.
Quote:
I'll stand with strider in saying bonders are a waste (warriors can tank most of fissure solo as it is, a monk to support makes them nearly invulnerable), and so are batteries. If your caster character isn't self-sufficient with energy... you need to rethink your build.
those who like it slow, mechanical and painful can remain the way they are.
Quote:
Excuse me? What?
When you kill a monster, a random selection goes through what it can drop. After that, the drop is assigned to a group member. The same number of items drop no matter the number of people in the team. 3 people will therefore gain a larger portion each than 5. This is not disputable, it seems logical enough.
oh dear god... You really do think you know everything, dont you? Once again: This is only a theory. It has never been proven. This is simply your common sense... but common sense does not always holds true. My experience tells me that drops only depend on individual farming status, thats it.
Anyway... bottom line is that you and OP should stop talking about your opinions as proven facts. Both you and OP have failed to prove that there is anything wrong with using bonder or that Inspiration stances are better that Tactics or that there is anything wrong with necro using Blood ritual.
12 Apr 2006 at 16:36 - 48
you know, amongst all of this arguing, no one has yet to provide argument as to the benefits of a tactics stance tank or a bonder.
forget that i even mentioned the inspiration stances. i really don't understand why you keep fixating on that, as that is not my main point. maybe they suck. fine. that still doesn't change my opinion of the tactics stances. and not once did i criticize br. i criticized bip. but forget that too. forget the battery, as that may have uses. forget the book, as some people need it.
the main points of the thread are (follow along please):
1 - tactics stances aren't very effective in fow
2 - a bonder isn't very effective in fow
unless you have any argument to dispute that, your posts hold no ground. i don't want this to turn into a "my build is better than your build" thread. what i intended is for this to be a "drop the tactics stances and the bonder" thread.
aside from picking apart people's post, provide your own arguments as to what benefits either of those have. please. prove me wrong.
edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ira Blinks
SS, Empathy and Shatter do damage regardless of AL and stances you use.
Degen is not applied to armor in any way either.
err... what is your point again?
umm... this IS the point. a majority of the damage in fow comes from these hexes, degen, and spells. damage from actual attacks is negligible. tactics stances and life bond does NOTHING against those. if you can somehow explain to me how stances and bond prevent that damage, i would simply love to hear it.
12 Apr 2006 at 17:08 - 49
striderkaaru
1) Excuse me if I bring a bit of reality here, but I never said that tactics is must have thing. In fact it is you who came here and said that tactics suck and ispiration rule as if it was provent fact. I simply asked you why. And you started bringing useless arguments like damage from shatter enchant, ss, etc... Now you backed off and saying that stances are not very effective in general. Well, ok, i can sorta agree on that, but what are the options? Note that Strengh based skils are not substitution to stances, they coexist just fine on tank's skillbar.
2) You whole argument is based on the the assumption that bonder is person with one skill on his skill bar (which is Life Bond). Many people already told you that you are dead wrong about it. Spells like Life barrier, Vital blessing etc do help alot, and that is bonder's job to use them. Life bond maybe isnt very effective in FoW, but if you already have bonder with you - why not use it? It does reduce damage after all.
Now lets get back to your original point. You saying that these are common _mistakes_. I dont see any mistakes. I see things that you dont like, things you poorly understood, and things that have nothing to do with your original point.
12 Apr 2006 at 17:59 - 50
ira
1) i hate to bring up this fact, but you may need to relearn this little thing called reading comprehension. go back to my original post, which as you may see, is unedited. not once did i ever say that inspiration stances rule. what i said was that they "can work."
you asked why, and i explained why. how many times in fow do you ever see mixed damage types in a single group? often, shadow warriors will be mixed with shadow monks, while shadow elementals are in separate groups with the mesmers. abyssals are with rangers, icehands are elemental, etc. you get the point. damage types are separated if you aggro separately, and you can switch stances accordingly. in the wailing and burning forests, elemental resistance helps a lot. now, if you like to aggro 50 groups at once, then perhaps the inspiration stances aren't a good idea. so, it can work, but it's situational to the group strategy. not once did i ever say that it rules.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ira Blinks
Now you backed off and saying that stances are not very effective in general. Well, ok, i can sorta agree on that, but what are the options?
|
but since we are in agreement that stances are not very effective, why are we arguing? why waste 3-4 slots on a warriors skill bar on something that isn't effective? this is the mistake: the waste of skill slots.
2) i realize that other skills are present on a bonder, but the defining skill of a bonder is life bond. once again, why would you call it a bond monk without life bond? would you call a ranger a barrage ranger if he doesn't have barrage? yes, i know there are 7 other skills on the skill bar, but nomenclature has a purpose.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Ira Blinks
Life bond maybe isnt very effective in FoW, but if you already have bonder with you - why not use it? It does reduce damage after all.
once again, we are in agreement. why are we arguing? sure, if it's there, use it. but why bring it at all in the first place?
3) the whole reason why i posted this is to prevent misconceptions like what happened with anarion (sorry for using you as an example). if you see every single group in toa say "LFG stance tank and bonder for fow", you may start to think that those are good builds to bring for fow. but they aren't, and we have both agreed to this. if people want to use it, fine. but i want them to realize what flaws are in their build, so that one day, they can actually learn and fix it.
12 Apr 2006 at 18:15 - 51
We agruing because:
1) you said that tactis is useless and inspiration is useful, and I said no, and you went into whole damage type thing and never came back from there, while it was obvious from the start that damage type makes no difference while using either of those types of stances.
Yet I am still convinced that tactics stances are at least as good if not better than Ispiration stances. And that is because you skipped altogether secondary effects they bring (damage back to attacker, +energy, +armor) as well as their spamability and focused of the discussion that armor is better than evasion, which by itself is also quiet arguable.
2) you said that _bonder_ is useless and should not be taken into the group, because Life bond does not reduce damage by much.
3) We agruing because you keep readjusting your opinion and backing off from original stand points instead of simply admiting that you were mistaken.
12 Apr 2006 at 18:29 - 52
Back to original post. I agree with the stances, most are useless. Give me glads and dolyak signet, and i'm good to go, throw in watch out! that's all the defense the tank needs.
Battery must bring more than just well of power and Br, BiP. They have 8 slots, use them.
Bonder should be a monk with bond skills, not simply a 2 skill bot following around watching energy fade away.
That said, I love the book trick. When I want shards and loot, especially golds I can id, the book trick is the easiest way to do it. If I want challenge, I'll take noob's through missions.
Personally, unless I get a 7/8 group of people that don't know what to do, I enjoy not knowing what I'm going to have to deal with, and how I'll have to react.
12 Apr 2006 at 21:04 - 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ira Blinks
We agruing because:
1) you said that tactis is useless and inspiration is useful, and I said no, and you went into whole damage type thing and never came back from there, while it was obvious from the start that damage type makes no difference while using either of those types of stances.
Yet I am still convinced that tactics stances are at least as good if not better than Ispiration stances. And that is because you skipped altogether secondary effects they bring (damage back to attacker, +energy, +armor) as well as their spamability and focused of the discussion that armor is better than evasion, which by itself is also quiet arguable.
2) you said that _bonder_ is useless and should not be taken into the group, because Life bond does not reduce damage by much.
3) We agruing because you keep readjusting your opinion and backing off from original stand points instead of simply admiting that you were mistaken.
1) No, he said that Tactics stances alone are not very useful, but Tactics stance + Inspiration stances work better. And then he described the various damage types to back up his argument. To be fair, though, I don't follow on the alternative... is that Dolyak+Inspiration?
2) Your right, that's what he said....And so did you! Life Bond doesn't do much in FOW. That was his point. Take a different skill in it's place.
3) In reality, you mistook his original post and attacked his conclusions and now you are trying not to lose face by admitting he was correct.
12 Apr 2006 at 21:47 - 54
Carinae Dragonblood
Quote:
My criticism applies only for the type 1 stance tank.
Let's take a good look at the skill descriptions. Bonetti's and Defensive only block/evade melee attacks, while Glad's and Disciplined blocks attacks in general. Considering the damage you will be taking on a typical Forgemaster run, this is only effective against Shadow Warriors, Abyssals, and partially against Shadow Rangers.
This means that you have just wasted half of your skill bar on a partially effective build. Spells from Shadows Elementalists and Shadow Mesmers are unaffected. Spiteful Spirit is unaffected. Spells from Skeletal Icehands are unaffected. Skeletal Berserkers use Wild Blow, which will just cancel your stance. Called Shot and poison from Armored Cave Spiders are also unaffected. In essence, the majority of the important damage you are taking goes right through the stances anyway, making it ineffective to devote half of your skill bar to it. And if you ever decide to venture past the typical Forgemaster run, you will discover how even more ineffective your build is.
A type 2 stance tank who carries both Physical and Elemental Resistance can work, and I have nothing against that.
|
I read this as: stances (in fact he talking about tactics stances) do not protect against ss, stripping, wild blow, etc, while Physical and Elemental Resistance apparently do. In case you read this different please show me how, as this doesnt seem to be anything ambiguent to me. And he never talks about tactics + inspiration either. Nor I see any reference to Dolyak sig or any other Strenght base skill.
Quote:
If you read the skill description, you will realize that Life Bond only prevents and redirects damage from attacks. This goes along with my criticisms for a stance tank, as most of the important damage you will be taking in the fissure doesn't come from the attacks. A bonder spends most of his time and effort maintaining the bonds and keeping his energy up. This is a relatively ineffective use of 1 slot in the party, as the damage prevented by Life Bond is minimal, compared to all of the other damage you will be taking. You are also giving the mesmer mobs a free 100+ damage Shatter Enchant.
I read this as highlighted, which is based on false assumption that bonder = monk with life bond and nothing else. He never says that bonder should revise his skill bar, but he clearly says that bonder is useless.
Feel free to point out any mistakes I might have encountered
12 Apr 2006 at 22:20 - 55
Much better, Ira. This time your post seems like a discussion, not an attack.
1) Oh, I see what you're saying. I just take it as Physical and Elemental resistance cover the bases better than Tactics stances, but both can be stripped and neither protects against all possibilities. I think that's what he is saying. I welcome clarification on both side. Discussion >>>> arguing.
2) Good Catch! The key word being "party". I read this repeatedly as "bar", I sorta assume that's what he meant. He's saying Life Bond is ineffective, bring a different skill, and doing so changes the 'bonder' into a different kind of monk. ie: a boon/prot, a barrier monk, etc
3) I will retract my 'losing face' comment, if you will work to clarify your position in the future. What seems obvious to you might not be to someone else. If you had pointed out the word "party" earlier the whole Life Bond issue could have been avoided.
12 Apr 2006 at 22:54 - 56
To clarify further on the use of 'party':
I'm sure he meant one slot out of the partys total set of skill slots. One 8 man party = 64 skill slots.
13 Apr 2006 at 00:29 - 57
I am not willing to continue "conversation" with people with very little sense of logic. I do not enjoy being rated on questionable scales. I do not accept taking thoretical argumen on personal level. I have realized that I've been simply banging my head against the wall of narrow minds and arrogance. I apologize for the readers' time wasted. I will no longer respond to this thread.
13 Apr 2006 at 01:35 - 58
Just 1 question, why are you bitching about BONDERS taking only Bond?
I specifically ask the group i'm with if they want Bond/Barrier or Bond/SB. If your stance tank (type 2 i believe as the first version sucks) has any common sense he wont need both types. I can quite effectively reduce Abyssal damage to very near 0 without both Bond and Barrier on me aslong as i keep Dolyak Signet and Physical Resistance up.
Surely if ALL the agro is directed at your tank then those other so called monks you have should be able to heal any spike damage from Freeze/Surge/Touch. Since you can't trust general pugs to have SB with them i take it purely because its better than Barrier. So what if i reduce damage by 52%, if your all stupid enough to continue spamming attacks near each other w/ SS you deserve to die. I prefer to keep the tanks enchantments on him for at least 2 milliseconds. That way i can avoid Freeze/Surge, etc completely plus it means i can actually contribute during a battle if i use Balthazaars Spirit/ Life Bond rather than standing at the back pressing blessed signet occasionally wondering when that last Shadow is gonna die.
13 Apr 2006 at 08:26 - 59
Ira, I was merely explaining our alternate route to the common group and the reasons why it worked. Pointing out where the big sources of damage were, mitigating that damage, and addressing how our smaller group was able to deal with so that others can attempt it without simply going in there expecting it to work. The point was brought up about our 3 man group, and I felt compelled to defend the logic of it. It trailed off track from Strider's original point, I apologize for the confusion and frustration that mounted.
Quote:
ummm... so? I totaly agree on use of Dolyak sig and Watch yourself. What does this have to do with Inspiration stances being better than Tactics stances?
|
You brought up the point of there being a lot of armour ignoring damage from abyssals and berserkers. I was addressing that with those two skills the damage can be scoffed at. I failed to mention that from my personal experience the use of just Dolyak + WY was a better use than Bonds + Stances. I assumed that conclusion, oops. 
Quote:
If you dont land skull crack quickly enough it will take forever. Even two monks simply will not die. I tried it with SS+defile flesh+desecrate necro and crystal wave+obsidian flame ele. Damage simply is not enough to kill two shadow monks (worked out well with Backfire tho, but thats beside the point). Dude, honestly I refuse to belive that you can do that faster or easier than decent (not even good) nuker blindly unloading Meteor shover, Rodgorts invocation, Fireball combo on their heads + damage from SS
Understandable, I was skeptical at first as to whether or not it would even work let alone be relatively fast. The groups inside the Temple of War, we would rarely drop a group of 2 mesmers/monks before the patrol made it back and we were forced to retreat to kill the 2 abyssals/beasts. However, in the common PUG I've come to accept this happens everyime. No matter how many times I'm going to tell people to wait for the patrol to leave, then ping on the map when they're coming back... it just doesn't work everytime. However, no matter how you look at that situation... bonds, batteries, or a stance tank would not have helped in those situations either. The battery might've, depending on what he has on the bar. A stance tank would probably not have a 16 weapon attribute, and that does make a difference. None of those roles influences the damage being dealt, and if they do then we are clearly playing with different people who have different understandings of the listed roles.
So faster? Sometimes, but rarely. Easier? From the monk's perspective of only having to heal one body every so often as opposed to a group of 5-8 randoms, yes.
Quote:
The only times he died were from over aggro (our own mistake, not the weakness of the build), healer lag, using healing signet without dolyak and eating two infernos (that was actually hilarious)
It was actually a single Phoenix, which was about a 250~ (PBAoE + AoE damage) damage spike IIRC under Healing Signet w/o armour buffs.
13 Apr 2006 at 09:43 - 60
shower + barrage -> 4 shadow monks dead gg
13 Apr 2006 at 10:40 - 61
2 Warriors taking agro in FoW need to try to not stand too close next to each other to prevent Mark Of Pain taking effect. Also learn what Spiteful Spirit and Empathy does to you when its on. All of which no armour increasing or damage lowering spells will help soothe. The only time a warrior will take alot of spike damage is when he runs into the Skeletal Ether Breaker's. Might be an idea for a monk with Spell Breaker here although if healers are quick enough to act the warrior should recover quite quickly.
1 Warrior Tank is imo better.
14 Apr 2006 at 02:44 - 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by striderkaaru
Making a mistake (or several mistakes) in the Fissure of Woe is certainly understandable. We learn from our mistakes and become better players through experience. However, it has become a common practice for PUGs to make several mistakes even BEFORE entering the Fissure. What's worse is that, although this is slightly understandable for the uninformed PUG player, I have seen more and more posters on these very forums make the same mistakes.
The forums are a place for all of us to learn, as Guild Wars is a dynamic game with much to discuss. I hope that this little guide will help those currently making these mistakes, as well as newer members who are just learning about the Fissure.
Mistake #1: The Stance Tank
Before I proceed, I realize that there are two types of stance tanks. A type 1 stance tank is the typical warrior stance tank with Glad's Defense, Bonetti's Defense, and Defensive/Disciplined Stance. A type 2 stance tank is a W/Me with Physical/Elemental Resistance.
My criticism applies only for the type 1 stance tank.
Let's take a good look at the skill descriptions. Bonetti's and Defensive only block/evade melee attacks, while Glad's and Disciplined blocks attacks in general. Considering the damage you will be taking on a typical Forgemaster run, this is only effective against Shadow Warriors, Abyssals, and partially against Shadow Rangers.
This means that you have just wasted half of your skill bar on a partially effective build. Spells from Shadows Elementalists and Shadow Mesmers are unaffected. Spiteful Spirit is unaffected. Spells from Skeletal Icehands are unaffected. Skeletal Berserkers use Wild Blow, which will just cancel your stance. Called Shot and poison from Armored Cave Spiders are also unaffected. In essence, the majority of the important damage you are taking goes right through the stances anyway, making it ineffective to devote half of your skill bar to it. And if you ever decide to venture past the typical Forgemaster run, you will discover how even more ineffective your build is.
A type 2 stance tank who carries both Physical and Elemental Resistance can work, and I have nothing against that.
Mistake #2: The Bonder
I'm not quite sure how this one started, but my guess is that the Sorrow's Furnace farmers decided that they were good enough to start playing in the Fissure.
If you read the skill description, you will realize that Life Bond only prevents and redirects damage from attacks. This goes along with my criticisms for a stance tank, as most of the important damage you will be taking in the fissure doesn't come from the attacks. A bonder spends most of his time and effort maintaining the bonds and keeping his energy up. This is a relatively ineffective use of 1 slot in the party, as the damage prevented by Life Bond is minimal, compared to all of the other damage you will be taking. You are also giving the mesmer mobs a free 100+ damage Shatter Enchant.
What about a monk with Life Barrier instead of Life Bond?
Well, that isn't a bonder monk. That's a barrier monk, and it would help to keep the names straight.
Mistake #3: The Battery
The battery necro, or more specifically a necro with Blood is Power, isn't as big of a mistake as the previous 2. It does help with the team build to keep the monks' and damage dealers' energies up.
However, that 1 slot in the party could be used by a character that actually kills things. Also, constantly having a battery in the team breeds laziness, as people will become comfortable with it and will fail to learn about energy management.
It might be okay in a PUG setting, as bad players will need their energy replenished to keep the team going. However, you should learn not to rely on it and manage your own energy.
Mistake #4: The Book Trick
This one is up for debate, so I will leave my thoughts out. However, please keep in mind that you won't develop your gameplay and become better if you always rely on this.
Conclusion:
Before anyone says otherwise, groups can clear the Fissure without ever needing a stance tank, bonder, battery, or librarian. In a PUG setting, a battery nec and the book trick might be acceptable, as bad players will need more failsafe methods to extend their stay, but experienced players shouldn't have to fall back on those. And under no circumstances is a stance tank or bonder ever a good idea.
I realize that a forum is a place for discussion. So, if you disagree with any of my thoughts, feel free to argue with them. But please keep it civil and present proof.
Sounds like you've spent a LOT of time in FOW....
Just wondering if you run with a set group of people, or do you use "true" PUGS when doing this. The reason I'm asking is (IMO) you can never be too sure how much experience people have with FOW. In a typical PUG, I think you'd have to make the (safe) assumption that you may have 3types of people in a typical FOW PUG:
1. Those who are VERY familiar with FOW farming and quests, ands know what to expect;
2. Those who have been in FOW a handful of times, and are still "feeling thier way". They may have completed the ever popular Forgemaster and Restore quests;
3. Those who have been in FOW but a few times (2-3). They're not going to tell you, "I've only been on FOW once", for fear of being booted.
I've formed a number of PUGs for FOW, and I try not to ask about the experience factor (everyone has their reasons for going, be it farming for shards and weapons, or getting that Fissure armor). With that in mind, I would think that most PUGs would run with the "familiar" method of the book trick. Isn't it difficult to make a PUG, and run with the methods you've talked about? I'd LOVE to try some of these methods, but my guild isnt big enough to try your methods, and it would seem (to me) that you'd spend a long time trying to explain these methods to a typical PUG...
There is one other reason (again, IMO) why I'd find it hard to try this. How many times have people created a FOW PUG, get halway through wiping out some patrols, and then having people drop? Chances are, those are the people who can actually do the methods you've described; they just "give up" on the PUG for whatever reason...
By the way, I'm still able to get that PUG through a lot of FOW when up to as many as 4 people have dropped....
| | |
![]SK[](/static/static/../Img/avatar57917_6.gif){kind=avatar}