Mind Wrack...why?

If I remember rightly Mind Wrack was slated as a "useless" skill for PvP in the early days of GW, but I've read a recent post, can't remember where, that it's now an "essential" skill if you're running E-denial. Yes it's low energy, and spammable but I have a few issues with it why...unless I'm missing something really obvious it still seems like a load of poop. Please feel free to advise / correct / flame me for my stupidity, but here goes.

1) Mind Wrack only triggers when energy reaches 0, so you can't run it in builds with energy degen as the target would reach 0 and stay there, rendering further Mind Wracks pointless. So presumably you're going to Weary, Burn and Surge the target to get rid of energy, but that's only 30 energy and recharge about 20s for all 3 (if you use Sig first) so you're just standing around doing nothing for a while, and they can heal themselves up.
(Arcane) Echo etc I suppose...but 15 energy for the former makes it too expensive.

30 energy...are you targeting W's and rangers with low energy pool? If so, you'd surely be better running Illusion build with Ineptitude, Clumsiness and some degen, it sees to them pretty quickly if they're stupid and don't realise.

2) Combination with Spirit Shackles? This skill only useful for rangers / W's and the occasional wanding ele but the latter are so easy to deal with it's laughable. Us clever mesmers, necros and monks rarely wand so it's not that valuable IMHO. And even on a W, with only 2 pips of regen, wouldn't their attack rate be so fast as to keep them constantly at 0 energy with Shackles on? ie Mind Wrack would trigger once, then they'd stay at 0 if they carried on attacking, rendering further Wracks useless?

3) For casters you could of course use the incredibly abusive Power Leak for E denial as well, but by the time you've cast Burn / Surge / Wrack / Leak surely you'd be in as bad a state as them? Obviously you could then focus on Energy management but again, it doesn't keep up any damage momentum if you go off and look for something else to do. For this reason, it doesn't seem that strong for casters either.

So why is it an essential skill? Apologies for my demented ramblings, but I'm looking forward to being educated.

It helps versus focus swapping, mainly, which is the primary defence against energy denial.

I still think its a useless skill i'd rather take something like diversion. But i think mesmers generally suck in pvp anyway, unless u can interrupt without migraine effectively.

Quote: Originally Posted by The Fenixxor

Quote: Originally Posted by Avarre It helps versus focus swapping, mainly, which is the primary defence against mind wrack. No doubt you meant energy denial . Mind wrack offers a way for surgers to identify when they've dropped energy levels. It will also trigger very often against people under energy denial-the extra bonus is nice especially since you're running a character that's very close to util.

Quote: Originally Posted by SkyFerina 1) Mind Wrack only triggers when energy reaches 0, so you can't run it in builds with energy degen as the target would reach 0 and stay there, rendering further Mind Wracks pointless. So presumably you're going to Weary, Burn and Surge the target to get rid of energy, but that's only 30 energy and recharge about 20s for all 3 (if you use Sig first) so you're just standing around doing nothing for a while, and they can heal themselves up.
(Arcane) Echo etc I suppose...but 15 energy for the former makes it too expensive. It's a bit more complex than that. When someone is hit with energy denial they're going to try to hide their energy. You then proceed to help them burn off their excess-when they come out to cast, you hit them with denial, when they swap back down mind wrack triggers. As I alluded to before, it tells you when someone's at zero, so you don't waste a surge or burn on them-you wait for a bit, watch their weapons, and denial them a few seconds later.

Alright, here it goes:

1: Only 30 energy? A monk as around 49 energy, you have a team that damages, do you think the monks just stand around doing nothing? They need to prot/heal too, so they will deplete their own energy even before you start surging, then after a while you start totally draining them and you WILL get Mind Wrack triggered.

Now, most people use those skills combined with Signet of Humility and MANTRA OF INSCRIPTIONS, halving the signet recharges. And I myself use a wand with fast recharge and a focus with fast recharge, so they're even more spamable.

2: Cast Mind Wrack, drain them and mind wrack triggers, put it up again, drain them and it triggers again, keep doing it for a huge amount of damage

3: You don't use Power Leak on Surge mesmers but on Migraine mesmers to interrupt.

4: It's a nice coverhex, meaning that if someone else puts an important hex on the target and don't want it to be removed you spam Mind Wrack on the target so they will remove that one instead of the important hex.

5: What Avarre said, it a counter to focusswapping. Focusswapping is ( obviously ) swapping your focus so you have less energy while you have a Surgemesmer on you so you won't take the damage from the skills and have energy when you swap back. Mind Wrack damages them pretty much so they can't use focusswapping effectively.

6: "Mesmers generally suck in PvP anyway" - Omg, Mesmers are the strongest players in PvP if you have the right build. Admit it, you get totally pissed off if you have "one of those annoying mesmers on your butt"

Anyone else got something I forgot?

Quote: Originally Posted by Siliconwafer

And one more thing - MW was useless when energy denial was e-tap and e-drain, but now it can do pretty much dmg with burn and surge.

I also use shatter enchantment on my e surger so im able to not only drain monks energy, but also leave him almost dead.

And more dmg = more energy used on healing.

MW is also nice on TA when u have to face war or ranger when all casters are dead (or u r facing non-caster team). That extra 85 damage is always something.

Quote: Originally Posted by The Fenixxor

you do this
mind wrack > sig > burn > they're out of energy (mind wrack triggers) or they focus swapped. keep an eye on them. surge/burn/whatever when they switch back, then mind wrack them. they'll switch to they're second set after they cast, triggering mind wrack.

another thing, you need to burn, let them regen a little, surge, let them regen, etc. doing this will make it easier to rotate your skills and keep them at 0-5 energy at all times

Quote: Originally Posted by The Fenixxor

i used to like Mind wrack but recently took it off my builds only because i could replace it for soemthing more useful. Mind wrack isnt useless but you can find something better, IMO.

Spammable yes, another cover hex HELLS YES.

Mind Wrack is a lot of pressure if you are running two Surge/Burn mesmers. Other than that, I wouldn't bother.

Quote: Originally Posted by fiery

(examples at 14 dom because why would you run it any high )

1) armor ignoring dmg
2) Will add 85 dmg to your spells when your foe is below 11 energy.
3) Minimum dmg you do is 94 dmg. Range of 94-160.
4) Will eventually be harnessed by FEAR ME to output huge amounts of dmg while the war locks your energy.
5) Shows when target is out of energy so you move to another or wait for weapon switch.

Its more of a tactical use skill than a push button affect.

Quote: Originally Posted by The Fenixxor

Focus swapping has become very popular latly as it is a counter to edenial that does not use up skill slots-this is to help counter that counter.

And in pve with spirit S. it is very nice. Although empathy is often better.

Last note though, pve monks attack...alot.

I always thought Mind Wrack was also used along side Shatter Delusions, just incase the foe didnt reach 0 before the hex ran out.

^^^ That's a waste of a slot right there. Mindwrack is like a spike. Once you get your target nrg relatively low, you just spike them with a Burn/Surge and Wrack and hit for whatever damage + up to 100 from Wrack (normally 90). What's even better is that you can do damage even with SoW and Tap. In my classic Wrack e-denial: Wrack, Surge, Burn, SoW, Tap, that's 4 Wracks in about 20 seconds accomplanies by 0 nrg and 160 damage in burns... so.. it adds up.